My brother just spoke Sunday night with Rav Hillel David regarding the Feinstein Beis Din and its ruling. My brother said I could write about what he told me was said - and added that it was important to note that Rav Hillel David was very open with him and very polite and respectful.
Rav Hillel David was asked why after over a month of deliberations - no psak has been released to the public. He answered unambiguously that Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky had requested the ruling of the beis din regarding the Heter and that he was the sole person of concern. That what had been decided was not the business of the public. Therefore the psak was conveyed only to Rav Shmuel and his son.
My brother noted that the issue of the validity of the heter was in fact of public concern as are the associated issues as to whether Tamar is committing adultery and her future children will be mamzerim as many great poskim have already said.
Rav Hillel David repeated that the beis din was concerned only with the question that Rav Kaminetsky had raised as to whether they considered the heter valid. The beis din did in fact answer Rav Kaminetsky's question - and did not address the other issues. Because the mandate of the beis din was limited to Rav Kaminetsky's question - they did not deal with whether Tamar was an adulteress or whether she needed to separate from her husband. It was simply not their job.
In short Rav Hillel David provided crushing confirmation of the worst conjectures concerning the Feinstein Beis Din. It showed an absolute lack of interest of the most pressing issues that this heter has raised regarding rabbinic corruption and the validity of annulling marriages. Thus instead of bringing closure to this scandal - it merely served as a ladder for Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky and his son to distance themselves from the heter. We thus have 3 major talmidei chachomim who failed to address the real needs of the Jewish people at this time. By ignoring the full ramifications of this scandal they have ended up participating in the cover up to just show that Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky is a tzadik who listens to Rav Dovid Feinstein.
It seems that the Aguda has heaved a sigh of relief and feels that the issues have been properly resolved behind closed doors - and that it is time to forget and get on with life.
But that is sheker and the matter has not been resolved nor will it be forgotten. This is a shameful episode that gets worse by the day. By Rav Dovid Feinstein's participating in this cover up, the Feinstein name has been besmirched
Did R' Hillel share the basis for their psak against the heter?
ReplyDeleteno
ReplyDeleteOh! said Kaminetzky. Thanks for telling me that there is no heter to commit adultery and to fabricate lies to alter halachos. Gee I didn't know and I'm so glad you told me. It was a tuffy as it even took the greatest of rabbis over a month of deliberation to figure it out. But now that I know I won't tell Tamar to commit any more adultery. And I'll even tell her not to, and who knows she might listen. And if not, then oh well... I can only try. And I am so nice that I will even add a bracha that Hashem should fix all of the damages in Klal Yisroel.
ReplyDeleteThe Kaminetskys need to be destroyed, I hear work is underway to bring them down
ReplyDeleteWatch this space
Perhaps because of my experiences I view Rav Dovid Feinstein's role differently than you do. I see his conclusion as placing the onus squarely upon Shmuel Kaminetzsky to undo the damage caused by the heter. Shmuel Kaminetzsky went to Rav Dovid to ask a shaila whether something he had set in motion was good. Rav Dovid told him it was not. Rav Dovid's role is concluded. Rav Dovid does not have to say this publicly, it is known he told The Kaminetzskys the heter they orchestrated is garbage. It is the job of The Kaminetzsky's to now correct that which they spoiled. Until that is done they should be ostracized and all contributions to their yeshiva should be halted. All that is needed is the criticism of them should continue unabated. It should be added to that they went to ask a shaila from Rav Dovid and they have not take the steps that answer requires. They are no different than a cook who asks if he made a pot treif, gets the answer, and then continues using it. Those who know what the posek said will continue to spread the word. I am fairly certain Rav David knows this which is why he knows he doesn't have to speak, yet.
ReplyDeleteHe may have not been asked.
ReplyDelete“Rav Hillel David was asked why after over a month of deliberations - no psak has been released to the public. He answered unambiguously that Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky had requested the ruling of the beis din regarding the Heter and that he was the sole person of concern. That what had been decided was not the business of the public. Therefore the psak was conveyed only to Rav Shmuel and his son.”
ReplyDeleteFeminism supporters could rejoice. Complete silence. Not even empty words! This reminds of Mendel Epstein et al’s forced gets for over 30 years. What stopped them was the FBI. I quote Criminal Complaint filed 10/7/2013 in Pacer
“14. Defendant MENDEL EPSTEIN admitted to committing approximately one kidnapping every year to year and a half….
15. Defendant MENDEL EPSTEIN stated that the kidnapping would cost $10,000 to pay for the rabbis on the rabbinical court to approve the kidnapping and an additional $50,000 to $60,000 to pay for the “tough guys” who would conduct the beating and obtain the forced get. Defendant MENDEL EPSTEIN stated that Defendant MARTIN WOLMARK officiates during the kidnapping and forced get and that Defendant EPSTEIN’s son is one of the “tough guys” who uses his karate skills on the victims to facilitate the divorces.”
Feminism supporters don’t have to worry much about rabbis and the public. They have to worry about USA criminal laws and the FBI. Feminism supporters are completely unafraid and open in their hostility to Aaron:
(internet 2012):
“Supporters of Tamar Epstein, whose ex-husband, Aharon Friedman, refuses to give her a religious divorce, have been pressuring Friedman's boss, U.S. Rep. Dave Camp, R-Michigan, to fire Friedman. They have protested in front of Camp's office, signed a petition at change.org, started a website (freetamar.org) and in February, bombarded Camp's official congressional Facebook page. But Susan Aranoff, director of Agunah International, which supports Jewish women seeking divorces, said social media has little effect because many husbands still are resistant after all the bullets have been fired."
If Rav Dovid paskened the annulment is invalid doesn't if follow that in his opinion the wife has to leave her second partner?
ReplyDeleteHe didn't ask such a shaila! There is and was no shaila and Kaminetzky knew this this as clearly as everybody else. Do you think he is retarded? Or do you think he was trying to make R' Dovid think that he is retarded? That second choice is actually a possibility, but truthfully nobody had any shaila. They were just trying to fool the people. And it looks like it worked because some peoiple think Kaminetzky was innocently asking a shaila: "Rebee, may I please please just this one time get away with letting just this one lady commit adultery? Please?" And the shockingly strict answer was no. But it took a month of deliberation.
ReplyDeleteNo! But it goes like this. "Rebee, could you help me save face? Could you please help me fool the world so that i hold on to my gadol status, please" And the answer was "yes"
He didn't pasken that. That never needed a psak because it was obvious.
ReplyDeleteThat was Shmuel Kaminetzsky's intent. Rav Dovid did not give him what he wanted. Rav Dovid's role was like that of Nosson Hanavi to Dovid. It is clear to everyone that Shalom Kaminetzsky, with approval of his father, went to trick Rav Nota Greenblatt to issue a "heter" for TE. It is now even clearer than before that Rav Greenblatt was duped and who did the duping. Shalom Kaminetzsky did not fool anyone with his letter in Matzav. It is his responsibility now to go to Rav Greenblatt and admit he fooled him. If he or his father continue to say they did did their duty already when it is clear they have NOT rectified the problems they caused then Klal Yisrael has the duty to pull its sons out of the Philadelphia Yeshiva and to ostracize those who כִּחֲשׁוּ
ReplyDeleteIt is his responsibility nothing! The only thing he can do is teshuva with real humility which is far far far from happening and nobody needs him to tell anybody anything. Is Greenblat such a total idiot that he still needs the word of Kaminetzky to tell him what every simpleton knew for the longest time? This whole thing is to make us all i to fools but i refuse to take upon myself that role. I am not fooled by any of the players here in this fiasco. They were mevazeh The Torah etc and no covers ups will be acceptable. end of story.
ReplyDeleteThe basis of the psaK?! I'll tell you. לא תנאף
ReplyDelete@Harry...
ReplyDeleteLechol Tfutzos beis Yisrael ulechol man deboie lemeida, lehevei yodua!
All the letters you have read from all the Gedolim DID PASKEN that, whether obvious or not! When RSK wrote in his letter to Rav Weiss of Be'Datz, RSK did not split hairs isolating one single segment of this whole FIASCO to comply with of what R' Dovid will Pasken. If the HETER was FALSE and INVALID or WORTHLESS *nispardo hachavilo* and the WHOLE TRAIN - the Caboose, Conductor with the whole KIP & CABOODLE in it's tracks is Treifo uNeveilo betachliss hoIssur mitocho umigabo umeikro. For R' Dovid in order to Pasken he *had* to take each and every detail and the followed consequences into consideration from *Adam*, and he is aware that such needs a wholesome psak to ammend in totto for whatever that transpired before moving on. No such thing as palginan bediburei!
When a car runs into an accident, do you send it to the repair shop just to fix the facade and only to do a cover up paint job or you have it repaired thoroughly all the damaged parts before the vehicle becomes roadworthy? The same rule applies here. A Mashgiach for Kashrus, is he reponsible *only* to oversee the cooking and it's ingredients to be betachliss haKashrus or is his reponsibility is for the Kashrus of the vessels that it's being cooked in as well, as part and parcel of the Hashgacha? That is Mitchilas haChaliva ad gmar haShtiya? If any Hechsher should exclude any treifene pots and pans utilized in the process with having a written disclaimer that they are not responsible for the vessels they are cooked in, would anyone in his right mind accept such a partial Hechsher? Of course not!
Furthermore, wouldn't it be the proper thing to do a total recall if there was any lapse in the Hechsher if chas vesholom some Treifa ingredient was used? Why is there no recall that TE is NOT FREE and remains an Eishes Ish lechol dovor, unless and untill she receives a GET in accordance with HALACHA from a bar Samcha BD such as BBD that has Jurisdiction over this particular case? AS IS, this makes it look like metaher sherets.... and has no place here.
Since we have received no satisfaction or relief from this Psak - *if* that has been the WHOLE psak - we need BBD to take over and finish this job in it's entirety. They owe this for klall Yisrael, for all husbands and more specifically to our case at hand so that NO MORE such Sha'arurya's dare to ever happen again. NO, you cannot just sweep it under the rug to become another victim and another statistic.
What we need is a total bedikat chometz and Bedek haBayit lechazek et Amos haSipim Ukdishas beis Yisroel from the Mendel Epsteins vesiyato anshei haBliya'al, the plague of Gitei meusse, the entailed mamzerus issues in listing of who they are, Matirei Eishes ish lashuk with worthless Heterim for $hochad, The anshei ORA, RA leshomayim veRA labriyos to ban them once and for all, vechulay vechuley etc. etc.
We the People of Klall Yisroel thank wholeheartedly both R' Eidonsonhn brothers N. Yoir for putting in all their efforts and time to relieve Beis Yisroel of this Plague putting it on the front burner this burning and dire issue. We also are greatful for all The Gedoilei uGeoinei Yisrael hayoshvim al haMODIN, hen Bo'oretz vehein bechutz lo'Oretz for fighting lechol dovor shebeKdusho ubifrat for this Chilul Shem Shomayim borabim Sha'arurya hanogea beIkrei haDas Moshe veYisroel. We are looking forward for BBD, hamaschil bemitzvo, omrim lo Gmor lehachzir atoro leyoshno. Amen!
vehoElokim yevakesh es haNirdaf
And to you Aron N. Yoir, they ALL owe you an apology BORABIM, and have access to any Mikdash Me'at in the whole wide world . May you from now on only know of menuchas hanefesh umnechuas haguf verov nachas ach tov kol hayomim. Amen!
See gemora Shabbos 54b and 55a that one who can prevent another person from sinning but does not do this has the sin himself. If Reb Dovid and his Beth Din can order Shmuel Kaminetsky to tell Tamar to leave Adam and he does not then he has the sin of Tamar's adultery and if there is a mamzer he is punished for making a mamzer. The gemora clearly says that this applies to people who are perfect tsadikim, but because they assumed that probably nobody would listen to them they did not rebuke the sinners. Perhaps if Reb Dovid would publicly write that Tamar is living in sin she would leave Adam and not have a mamzer. And if Reb Dovid simply dodges around with excuses, that is the exact case in the gemora that the perfectly righteous people who did this were killed for their sin.
ReplyDeleteIt is a chutzpa of S. Kaminetsky to publicly announce a false seiruv against AF, but doesnt want to publicly announce that Tamars remarriage is adulterous. 2. Why isnt Adam Fleischer beinged kicked out of shul for living in an adulterous relationship yet AF and Meir Kin are kicked out of shul? Have the rabbis totally lost their moral compass?
ReplyDeleteLol, u couldn't have said it better, indeed some old rabbanim have totally lost it, and need to be rooted out, Sam Kaminetsky is on top of the list, but parlow isn't that far behind, there needs to be a grass roots effort to replace them with Torah true leaders
ReplyDeleteYes
ReplyDeleteyou think meyer kin should be let into shul! cherpoh hi lonu
ReplyDeleteyes he should be let in to shuls as he has not violated any torah laws, yet lonna kin, the moredet and moseret has violated many torah laws. Your suggestion to prevent Meir from entering shul is no different than your support for Kaminetsky's TF heter to remarry w/o a Get.
ReplyDeleteChabad in Las Vegas kicked Meir Kin out is because they were afraid of being picketed by the gangster hypocrite Jeremy Stern. How can their kashrus there be trusted when the words of Torah לֹא תָגוּרוּ מִפְּנֵי אִישׁ mean nothing to them?
ReplyDeletePlease. I'm interested in their psak, not in childish responses.
ReplyDelete