It's hard to weigh in on this one. Perhaps if this shtick neveliah is successful in avoiding jail until he drops dead, his reckoning in the עולם האמת will be that much more severe. So maybe he can spend his miserable remaining days with his family...for all the families he's had a hand in destroying, there is a much more efficacious trial awaiting him down the road. Then, he will find no attorney able to ensure that he gets 'acquitted on all counts save one.'
Perhaps he is a רשע, perhaps not. He sent goons to force גיטין, which is just fine according to some ראשונים. According to others, the גיטין are not kosher. He is at most a half-רשע. Which families are you speaking about ?
You can add the other half rishus to the false siruvim and false piskei din of flase chiyuvei Get that no rishonim nor achronim will take part of. He will be nidon betsah rotachat bekaf hakela. The families that are named on the cashed in checks of 60K.
No Rishon permits forcing a Get without a bona fide beis din case so ruling. This thug never had a legitimate beis din ruling to beat husbands into giving a Get. He created a kangaroo "beit din" that in contravention to every halacha conducted a so-called "trial" in abstentia with one party to the case never present.
Defendant Mendel Epstein has moved for bail pending appeal. Today is 33 days Rav Dovid Feinstein's Beis Din has considered Heter. Mendel Epstein motion papers state on page 4:
“The government makes the bizarre argument, in this connection, that because a prosecutor might have turned the defense evidence of purpose to the government’s advantage, by arguing that performing a mitzvah would be to the defendant’s benefit, as he perceived it, and thus potentially satisfy the “or otherwise” element, it was somehow proper to exclude that evidence. (Opp. BPA, at 7).”
Mendel Epstein et al were only doing a mitzvah! This is what Kamenistky-Greenblatt heter claims too. What mitzvah? Helping an agunah, as here:
(internet 2012):
“Supporters of Tamar Epstein, whose ex-husband, Aharon Friedman, refuses to give her a religious divorce, have been pressuring Friedman's boss, U.S. Rep. Dave Camp, R-Michigan, to fire Friedman. They have protested in front of Camp's office, signed a petition at change.org, started a website (freetamar.org) and in February, bombarded Camp's official congressional Facebook page. But Susan Aranoff, director of Agunah International, which supports Jewish women seeking divorces, said social media has little effect because many husbands still are resistant after all the bullets have been fired."
Now, if Rav Dovid would confirm that the Kamenistky-Greenblatt heter is doing a mitzvah, to help the Agunah, Tamar, that would be a major support to Mendel Epstein et al. Maybe this is why Rav Dovid is not ruling. He’s waiting for the USA courts to rule first.
Can he postpone this indefinitely? Need to point out that although the Epstein saga needs coverage, I bit disturbed that the TAMAR Epstein saga seems to be dying down. ...
Hmmm... Wow, must be a big mitzvah 60K, not even an Etrog demands such a price! Why then people that donate kidney's that saves lives which is even a bigger Mitzvah don't charge at all. Didn't the Judge say in the first place not to go that route of Mitzvah? Not even one of the goons of the gang that couldn't shoot straight ever did it lishmah, leshem matsos mitzvah, huh? Mind you, and had to be payed up front, no money, no Mitzvah, no ticki, no shirt. Was it falsifying siruvim and psokim of chiyuvei get also as big of a Mitzvah? How about beating up non-existing husbands in absentia, is that also a big Mitzvah. My dear, barking up the wrong tree. You will never convince the Judge of commiting thi$ Mitzvah in good faith. You are nothing less than a Butcher and botched up big time, this time.
The result has already been achieved. Tamar Epstein is known to be an adulteress and any children she has henceforth are mamzerim. If she chooses to do teshuva henceforth and spare her future children the stigma, that's up to her. What should be done now to prevent any such future fiascos like this is to expose Jeremy Stern and his ORA organization for the liars and hypocrites they are.
Oh, big mayvin, one more thing: taking $10,000$$$ in order to "pasken "chiyuv get"", is much of a bigger avla than taking $60,000$$ to beat up somebody. ... think about it......
He may have had a so-called beis din but he didn't have a defendant in the dock. He conducted his mock kangaroo beis din without the husband/defendant in absentia. In Halacha it isn't possible to conduct a beis din trial with one of the parties in absentia. That's open and clear kneged halacha regarding conducting a trial.
It isn't possible al pi halacha for a beis din to issue a ruling of chiyuv Get if the husband isn't in the beis din courtroom. Mr. Epstein never had the husbands in his courtroom.
Furthermore, regarding the סירוב, the סירוב was only for failure to respond to the hazmana and appear in beis din. The סירוב was *not* for failure to give a Get after a Chiyuv Get ruling was issued. (A Chiyuv Get verdict was impossible to issue by beis din since the husband never appeared in beis din.)
Both. The husband is ruined because, as you said, was forced to divorce his wife against his will. And the wife is ruined since she now has a pasul Get (Get Me'usa) and it may result in her committing adultery and even producing mamzeirim.
Considering the lebedige yesomim he created and the pain inflicted on the Fathers, eishes ish, mamzerim ........... is not enough. So much for lealma dekshot, for bealma hodein, I will let the natural Parents have the floor. This butcher is a Monster.
1) Please find me a Rishon that says that a yochid or hediot (Meaning: a non shliach beis din) has a right to beat someone for a get prior to there ever being a psak beis din.
2) Please find me a rishon that permits anyone to declare himself as a beis din with binding jurisdiction over a man who never accepted his authority and he is not accepted as the beis din of the town (when such a beis is halachicly possible...).
3) Please find me a rishon who paskens that a beis din may take a significant amount of money from one party, while not receiving any payment from the other party, and allows this beis din to accept testimony shelo bifnei baal din and allows this beis din to pasken a chiuv in this fashion.
You know quite well that there is no real defense for the above actions. You know quite well that any children resultant from a "get" acquired through the above actions is invalid - which turns the woman into an adulteress. How many millions of chiuvei missah has brought upon these women and their boyfriends? Do you not call this man a rasha? He is clearly a person who has performed many massim of rishus. Did he also do good deeds? Yes. That does not mean that we should not be happy that his continuous massim of rishus was put to an end. That does not mean that we should not make sure that everyone understands that his actions were unequivocally wrong.
Do you need a Beis Din of מומחים ? He had a בית דין.
Please don't play silly here. If you call a chair a desk, will the chair become a desk? If you call a chair a beis din, will the chair become a beis din?
Is a beis din governed by the shulchan oruch? Are there clear halochos of beis din? Did his group of payed do-gooders meet the criteria of a valid beis din in these cases? If they did not meet the criteria of a valid beis din in the specific cases that they were payed for, then he is a rasha. The Mishna calls him a rasha orum!
Wow, not Mayvin Psayim, but should be Shomer Psayim.
We already know that this chazzer and neveliah arranged the whole setup, with payments for the 'BD' (sic), and then the goon squad, and all the fixings. It was all planned up front.
And you're stuck on whether they were מומחים?? Really? Because if they weren't so, it was all on the up and up?
Wondering where have you been all these years. ....
Yes, husbands were ruined, wives were ruined with invalid gittin, children born mamzerim were ruined, children whose families were broken were ruined. ...rabbonim were also ruined. ..................
Has anyone paskened the kids of Epstein's gittin to be mamzerim ????? Anyone ??? Why are we talking about AF and TE ???? What about all the hundreds of mamzerim from every Get officiated by ME ?????
up and up lol !!!!! And all the batei dinim that take 300$ an hour per Dayan for שכר בטלה are YES on the up and up ???? Who are we kidding ??? When ZLT and AT go to ערכאות. When MMS went to ערכאות. When there is no one who goes to בית דין for any dispute nowadays??? When we are all about LEARNING BOYS, and there is כמעט NO functioning בית דין , we are on the up and up ??? When we are all about דעת תורה and not at all about דין תורה, are we really on the up and up ??? Do דיינים need בחינות ?? Or is every בר בי רב דחד יומא a טוען... Give me a break!!!! ME may have been part of the problem, he wasn't the whole problem. Putting the blame on him, is minimizing the disaster we have today called בית דין.
גם אלה לחכמים הכר פנים במשפט לא טוב וכה״א ולמוכיחים ינעם ועליהם תבא ברכת טוב.
Agreed. If they were and he was מסייע ידי רשעים, he was a רשע. However, he isn't at all the only רשע !!!!!! What about all the other ״רבנים״ that stand and tell women not to allow their x husbands to see the kids ???? What about all those רשעים who are מחזיק ידי מרעים. ???
Why do we make believe ME invented withholding visitation ???? It happened before him, and after him !! There are plenty of ״רבנים״ besides ME, that play the same game. Perhaps not as well, perhaps not for as much money. It is מעשים שבכל יום, ערב ובוקר וצהרים. There are men all over who never see their kids. The only one who I see standing up for them is the בית דין of הרב גאסטעטנאר!! The problem is a lot bigger than ME.
Before you accuse, make sure you are correct. גזילה ???? Who did he steal from ?? אשת איש perhaps. If they are truly אשת איש, where is the קול קורא about ממזרים ??????? Let's be open and real. Are ME gittin פסול ???? Yes or no ???? Or is this just blog fodder!!!
Perhaps he is/was a רשע. Let's assume he is, are the גיטין he performed פסול ??? I have not heard one פוסק say that they are פסול. He may have done wrong.
All I know is the one case with the FBI. That case is hard to argue. It shows his בית דין to be a joke. What steps has anyone take to make sure that there isn't more of this going on ? Do we have בתי דינים that are effective ??? Are we getting rid of the jokers ?? Or is everyone scapegoating just one man, and the real joke is on us ???? Where is אגודה ???? Where is the בית דין of the חסידים ???? Why did ZL and A go to court ???? Why don't we fix the wagon ??? Instead of blaming the mud ???
You don't need to convince me ME's PSAK BD was a joke. Taking money lol. The bigger joke is on all of us. We have no real BD nowadays. We need to reform the system!!! We need to qualify Dayanim!!! We need to teach our children to use BD. Not Daas Torah, Din Torah.
Wow, I must have set off a trip wire. That's quite a rant!
I'm not even addressing the related ב׳ד problems. That bothers you...fine. But you started the discussion here by coming to the defense (or was it half defense?) of someone who parlayed the BD problems of today into hundreds of thousands of dollars, or perhaps millions. All lining his pockets. (His worthless daughter - appropriately initialed BS - was in on it as well. Hopefully, her day at the Bar Association's Ethics Committee is coming.)
And all directly involved in destroying Jewish families.
Whatever your problems are with the system, know who you're defending the next time you step into the box.
You mean proficient in $hochad. Doesn't he know that a nonexisting husband is not able to give a Get, nor mechuyev a Get, and cannot beat the daylights out of him for no money in the world! A waste of human debris.
And all the batei dinim that take 300$ an hour per Dayan for שכר בטלה are YES on the up and up ????
What relevance does this have? If you have complaint against Mr. A for not being meticulous in his observance of a certain halacha, then that can somehow justify Mr. B violating the greatest sins? Rambling on about everything in the kitchen sink does not mean much. It is a simple red herring and attempt to divert from the real topic at hand.
I am not defending ME. I don't know ME. I am against scapegoating. It deflects from the real topic. He is one person. The system needs an overhaul. The education about it needs an overhaul. I hear רבניםז talking about the Internet. Internet אסיפות . What about בית דין ?? We have to teach our children about בית דין. Not about כולל שלא על מנת לעשות . We have to have בתי דינין that are trust worthy and trusted. We obviously don't have them. Why does אגו״י have a מועצת, yet not have a בית דין ??? Why can Satmar (the biggest חסידות) rabbis not be going to בית דין ?? I heard that the דיינים in the באבוב argument make 1,000,000$ Each ?? Is it true ?? We have a crisis a lot bigger than one rotten apple. Scapegoating him, makes believe everything else as far as בית דין is functioning well. Reality is, I don't think it is..
The person who is diverting is you. Scapegoating is the biggest diversion. Deal with the issue. The problem. Transparent בתי דין on the up and up. We need all בתי דין to have a credit score of 1000. We should close any of them that don't.
טוב שם משמן טוב ויום המות מיום הולדו וכה״א נבחר שם מעושר רב, מכסף ומזהב חן טוב
I don't recall seeing one letter about his גיטין. No clarification on whether the women who got gittin are permitted to stay with their new husbands. No clarity whether the children are ממזרים or not. Only blogs, and opinions of bloggers.
then you have rabbis taking exorbitant fees to do Giyur like the scandal involving Rabbi Metzger and Gavriel Cohen from lakewood. http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/State-indicts-former-chief-rabbi-Metzger-in-10m-bribery-case-423818 and http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4625057,00.html
1) Mr. Mendel Epstein is a Rosha. Period. I am glad that you understand.
2) Loaded questions mean nothing to me, (other than indicating certain things about you).
3) Scapegoating is the biggest diversion.
Which is what you are doing. You are trying jump on botei din in general to somehow try to defend the indefensible. Has Rabbi Dovid Feinstein passuled botei din for taking the type of money that they take? Has he himself participated with dayanim who take that sort of money? Are you choosy as to when Rabbi Dovid Feinstein's silence is proof?
You may be unaware, but according to Mendel's supporters, he was shown a psak from the BD of America before ordering the hit job. I'm no fan of Mendel's, but don't judge a man before reviewing all pertinent evidence.
Lo roisi einah rayah, there are many bloggers here that do with plenty of clarity. The fact that you try do away with R' Elyashiv with the wipe of your nose is meaningless. There was another one from R' Shternbuch N'Yoir
THIS IS A HALACHIC RESPONSA FROM A GREAT TALMUDIC RABBI IN ISRAEL RABBI SHTERNBUCH, WHO CLEARLY REJECTS, OBJECTS AND RIDICULES THE STRATEGY THAT AMERICAN JEWISH WOMEN EMPLOY TO EXTORT THEIR HUSBANDS BY USING THE CIVIL COURTS AND THEN ONCE AGAIN ATTEMPT TO EXTORT A "GET" FROM THEM WITHOUT FAIR DUE PROCESS AT A BAIS DIN. MANY WOMEN THINK THAT BY KEEPING THEIR COURT ORDERS AND THEN GOING TO BAIS DIN IS ACCEPTABLE. IN REALITY RABBI SHTERNBUCH CONDEMMS THIS PRACTICE...
"When there is no one who goes to בית דין for any dispute nowadays??? When we are all about LEARNING BOYS, and there is כמעט NO functioning בית דין , we are on the up and up ??? ... Do דיינים need בחינות ?? Or is every בר בי רב דחד יומא a טוען..."
Your information is outdated. Over the past twenty years, there have emerged a number of very competent batei din, staffed by very learned dayanim. Learn the field.
"We have to have בתי דינין that are trust worthy and trusted. We obviously don't have them."
We do, but the fancy expensive to'anim don't refer people to them, because they are straight. But the system is gradually changing for the better.
"Why does אגו״י have a מועצת, yet not have a בית דין ???"
They do. Over a decade ago, the Novominsker and some Agudah balebatim created Bais Din Tzedek Umishpat, located in downtown Brooklyn, for this purpose, staffed by some of the most learned of dayanim in the US. It wasn't popular, because the to'anim shunned it.
" I heard that the דיינים in the באבוב argument make 1,000,000$ Each ?? Is it true ??"
If it is, it's because of the thousands (!) of hours they clocked, which in turn is the fault of the to'anim who are experts at drawing out the hours.
If each dayan earned one million, you can be sure that each toen made two or more.
Why do we make believe ME invented withholding visitation ?
He did not invent it. However, Hashem has put a mechanism in place which can help deal with the problem. It is the Get. Without Mendel, a woman who wants her get will eventually be forced to compromise and stop the kidnapping. Additionally, she would be fearful to even go down that road, since she knows that if she angers her husband in this fashion she will be denied a get.
Mendel took away that weapon. He took the woman's money, and he told her that there will be no consequences.
There are plenty of ״רבנים״ besides ME, that play the same game.
None of them have a way around the get. If she plays that game, she won't receive a get.
Let's assume he is, are the גיטין he performed פסול ??? I have not heard one פוסק say that they are פסול.
Many poskim have written that specific one's are passul. Only the ones that were opened for reviewed received a psak. All those that remain hidden, cannot receive a psak. It does not kasher them, though.
Some issues have to dealt behind closed doors, since Hakol vehapirsum eino yofeh lohen. They need the help of nitmeu and manufacturing sfeikos. Just like the Etrogim you shouldn't handle too much with fingerprints because that creates Blatt fleckin.
There is another one, I think from R' Shternbuch where he is nokev umfaresh es hashem Epstein sharya. But I think this guy has a tendency to hijack discussions umatil dofi at his whim.
The BDA issued a Siruv *not* a psak. And the BDA Siruv was *only* for failure to respond and appear in beis din in response to a hazmana. The BDA Siruv was *not* for failing to give a Get after being ordered to give one by a beis din.
Furthermore, the BDA issued their Siruv despite the fact that the so-called "husband" (of what turned out to be a non-Jewish female FBI agent) didn't even exist. So how can the BDA be issuing a Siruv against a man when he doesn't even exist?
But even putting aside the BDA's misdeeds, when Mr. Epstein saw the BDA Siruv that did not permit him to physically coerce a husband into giving a Get.
according to Mendel's supporters, he was shown a psak from the BD of America before ordering the hit job.
Was he unaware of how easy it is to obtain such a psak from the BDA? Was not responsible to research the BDA prior to using them as his excuse to beat a guy?
Think about it: The BDA was happy enough putting out a siruv on man without ever verifying his address, or whether he had indeed received the their letters. (This is besides the fact that the BDA has no jurisdiction over Jews residing in Florida.) The BDA's excuse that the FBI agent showed him an email that was supposedly from the man, is pure stupidity. That means that any woman that would like to put out a siruv on her estranged husband or ex husband, can just provide a PO box that she owns as an address, or an address of a friend etc, concoct an email and voila, a "siruv" is born!
Hashem brought it that both, ME's and BDA's shenanigans should be revealed to the world! Please see the Targum on the Passuk "Sof dovor...." https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/060408da73a784e5af128d970a6ca6839cd7d92e44ca1eb8b361bf0ea3b82372.jpg
1. Not having בתי דין in a basement. חכמת המזכן בזויה ודבריו אינם נשמעים. We have to treat the בית דין respectfully, if we want others to.
2. Transparency. Every din Torah deserves an open Psak din. People have to be comfortable knowing that Beis din are not acting fraudulently.
3. Chinuch. Teaching children. That going to court is not alright. Not tenant landlord, not family court. Not Supreme Court.
4. No charge. I don't care if the קהילה pays for דיינים. Paying when you go to בית דין is the antithesis of what we want our בתי דינין to look like.
5. Getting rid of people who don't have a good name, and בתי דינין that don't have a good name. We can't afford to have our בתי דין זbe disrespected. מעשיך יקרבוך מעשיך ירחקוך. We need to uphold the top standards when it comes to Beis din.
So far the sting did the Job well. It brought all the criminals to justice. The harsher the sentence, the less chance of having it repeated. Look at the Kams, they tried to be inventive but they are stuck in the doldrums.
Your idea that a Get was made by Hashem in order to prevent a woman from withholding visitation is wrong, and has no mkor in Halacha. Nor does it work. It is just like withholding a חליצה for money.
Like it or not, the whole AF TE fiasco, ORA, ME, got their power from people who are either involved, or sick, of those using a Get as a tool and as a weapon. The results, are what we have in front of us. Halachically you can. You can also use קדשתי את בתי as a weapon. Perhaps there are other weapons to use as well. אין רוח חכמים נוחה הימנו.
The whole thing seems to be a joke. We need respectable בתי דין. Who don't take money. The קהילה should pay a salary. Otherwise, how is it even possible to be דן the דין פרוטה. If it costs 600$-900$ an hour to go to בית דין. Do you think that the cost is perhaps the reason בית דין is almost never used by anyone other than big business deals ?
We've heard reports that Rav Elyashiv was unaccepting of Epstein's tactics and gittin for years. Even during his lifetime this was known. If I recall this fact was discussed on this blog years ago already.
We do, but the average baal din follows the advice of his toen and goes to the one most suited to him. Additionally, every din Torah produces an angry losing baal din who wants to believe that the BD is corrupt, which further aggravates the reputations of batei din. There are batei din today that are fully competent, no less than today's roshei yeshiva or rabbonim are in their respective fields.
Who don't take money. The קהילה should pay a salary.
Batei Din have been taking money - from the baalei din - for at least the past three hundred years. See Ch.M 9, Tumim and Chochmas Shlomo there.
Otherwise, how is it even possible to be דן the דין פרוטה. If it costs 600$-900$ an hour to go to בית די
Are you aware that there are batei din that have a small claims department, where people can get a free psak?
Do you think that the cost is perhaps the reason בית דין is almost never used by anyone other than big business deals ?
It's hard to weigh in on this one. Perhaps if this shtick neveliah is successful in avoiding jail until he drops dead, his reckoning in the עולם האמת will be that much more severe. So maybe he can spend his miserable remaining days with his family...for all the families he's had a hand in destroying, there is a much more efficacious trial awaiting him down the road. Then, he will find no attorney able to ensure that he gets 'acquitted on all counts save one.'
ReplyDeleteבאבוד רשעים רנה
Perhaps he is a רשע, perhaps not. He sent goons to force גיטין, which is just fine according to some ראשונים. According to others, the גיטין are not kosher. He is at most a half-רשע. Which families are you speaking about ?
ReplyDeleteכל רוחו יוציא כסיל וחכם באחור ישבחנה
You can add the other half rishus to the false siruvim and false piskei din of flase chiyuvei Get that no rishonim nor achronim will take part of. He will be nidon betsah rotachat bekaf hakela. The families that are named on the cashed in checks of 60K.
ReplyDeleteNo Rishon permits forcing a Get without a bona fide beis din case so ruling. This thug never had a legitimate beis din ruling to beat husbands into giving a Get. He created a kangaroo "beit din" that in contravention to every halacha conducted a so-called "trial" in abstentia with one party to the case never present.
ReplyDeleteSofek d'oraysah l'chumra. On top of that, ANY sofek in Gittin demands chumra, not kula...
ReplyDeleteDaniel was referring to the families ruined because of his doing. ...
Defendant Mendel Epstein has moved for bail pending appeal. Today is 33 days Rav Dovid Feinstein's Beis Din has considered Heter. Mendel Epstein motion papers state on page 4:
ReplyDelete“The government makes the bizarre argument, in this connection, that because a prosecutor might have turned the defense evidence of purpose to the government’s advantage, by arguing that performing a mitzvah would be to the defendant’s benefit, as he perceived it, and thus potentially satisfy the “or otherwise” element, it was somehow proper to exclude that evidence. (Opp. BPA, at 7).”
Mendel Epstein et al were only doing a mitzvah! This is what Kamenistky-Greenblatt heter claims too. What mitzvah? Helping an agunah, as here:
(internet 2012):
“Supporters of Tamar Epstein, whose ex-husband, Aharon Friedman, refuses to give her a religious divorce, have been pressuring Friedman's boss, U.S. Rep. Dave Camp, R-Michigan, to fire Friedman. They have protested in front of Camp's office, signed a petition at change.org, started a website (freetamar.org) and in February, bombarded Camp's official congressional Facebook page. But Susan Aranoff, director of Agunah International, which supports Jewish women seeking divorces, said social media has little effect because many husbands still are resistant after all the bullets have been fired."
Now, if Rav Dovid would confirm that the Kamenistky-Greenblatt heter is doing a mitzvah, to help the Agunah, Tamar, that would be a major support to Mendel Epstein et al. Maybe this is why Rav Dovid is not ruling. He’s waiting for the USA courts to rule first.
Can he postpone this indefinitely? Need to point out that although the Epstein saga needs coverage, I bit disturbed that the TAMAR Epstein saga seems to be dying down. ...
ReplyDeletenot dying down - just giving them some rope
ReplyDeleteHow much rope do they need?!?!?
ReplyDeleteHmmm... Wow, must be a big mitzvah 60K, not even an Etrog demands such a price! Why then people that donate kidney's that saves lives which is even a bigger Mitzvah don't charge at all. Didn't the Judge say in the first place not to go that route of Mitzvah? Not even one of the goons of the gang that couldn't shoot straight ever did it lishmah, leshem matsos mitzvah, huh? Mind you, and had to be payed up front, no money, no Mitzvah, no ticki, no shirt. Was it falsifying siruvim and psokim of chiyuvei get also as big of a Mitzvah? How about beating up non-existing husbands in absentia, is that also a big Mitzvah. My dear, barking up the wrong tree. You will never convince the Judge of commiting thi$ Mitzvah in good faith. You are nothing less than a Butcher and botched up big time, this time.
ReplyDeletetill next week
ReplyDeleteThe result has already been achieved. Tamar Epstein is known to be an adulteress and any children she has henceforth are mamzerim. If she chooses to do teshuva henceforth and spare her future children the stigma, that's up to her.
ReplyDeleteWhat should be done now to prevent any such future fiascos like this is to expose Jeremy Stern and his ORA organization for the liars and hypocrites they are.
Nu
ReplyDeleteAchakeh lo b'chol yom sheyovo...
Wondering which families were ruined ? He husbands who were forced to divorce their wives unnecessarily ? The wives who got gittin through him ?
ReplyDeleteDo you need a Beis Din of מומחים ? He had a בית דין. One time he did it without a סירוב. He relied on BDA. Perhaps he was wrong, but רשע ?!
ReplyDeleteSo you are saying that he is going to כף הקלע combined with צועה רותחת, for 60k ? Sounds a bit steep to me.
ReplyDeleteOh, big mayvin, one more thing: taking $10,000$$$ in order to "pasken "chiyuv get"", is much of a bigger avla than taking $60,000$$ to beat up somebody. ... think about it......
ReplyDeleteHe may have had a so-called beis din but he didn't have a defendant in the dock. He conducted his mock kangaroo beis din without the husband/defendant in absentia. In Halacha it isn't possible to conduct a beis din trial with one of the parties in absentia. That's open and clear kneged halacha regarding conducting a trial.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't possible al pi halacha for a beis din to issue a ruling of chiyuv Get if the husband isn't in the beis din courtroom. Mr. Epstein never had the husbands in his courtroom.
Furthermore, regarding the סירוב, the סירוב was only for failure to respond to the hazmana and appear in beis din. The סירוב was *not* for failure to give a Get after a Chiyuv Get ruling was issued. (A Chiyuv Get verdict was impossible to issue by beis din since the husband never appeared in beis din.)
Both. The husband is ruined because, as you said, was forced to divorce his wife against his will. And the wife is ruined since she now has a pasul Get (Get Me'usa) and it may result in her committing adultery and even producing mamzeirim.
ReplyDeleteConsidering the lebedige yesomim he created and the pain inflicted on the Fathers, eishes ish, mamzerim ........... is not enough. So much for lealma dekshot, for bealma hodein, I will let the natural Parents have the floor. This butcher is a Monster.
ReplyDeletewhich is just fine according to some ראשונים.
ReplyDelete1) Please find me a Rishon that says that a yochid or hediot (Meaning: a non shliach beis din) has a right to beat someone for a get prior to there ever being a psak beis din.
2) Please find me a rishon that permits anyone to declare himself as a beis din with binding jurisdiction over a man who never accepted his authority and he is not accepted as the beis din of the town (when such a beis is halachicly possible...).
3) Please find me a rishon who paskens that a beis din may take a significant amount of money from one party, while not receiving any payment from the other party, and allows this beis din to accept testimony shelo bifnei baal din and allows this beis din to pasken a chiuv in this fashion.
You know quite well that there is no real defense for the above actions. You know quite well that any children resultant from a "get" acquired through the above actions is invalid - which turns the woman into an adulteress. How many millions of chiuvei missah has brought upon these women and their boyfriends? Do you not call this man a rasha? He is clearly a person who has performed many massim of rishus. Did he also do good deeds? Yes. That does not mean that we should not be happy that his continuous massim of rishus was put to an end. That does not mean that we should not make sure that everyone understands that his actions were unequivocally wrong.
Perhaps he is tzadik. BTW the one with the BDA turned out the nonexisting husband, for that he will not be boiled.
ReplyDeleteDo you need a Beis Din of מומחים ? He had a בית דין.
ReplyDeletePlease don't play silly here. If you call a chair a desk, will the chair become a desk? If you call a chair a beis din, will the chair become a beis din?
Is a beis din governed by the shulchan oruch? Are there clear halochos of beis din? Did his group of payed do-gooders meet the criteria of a valid beis din in these cases? If they did not meet the criteria of a valid beis din in the specific cases that they were payed for, then he is a rasha. The Mishna calls him a rasha orum!
he is going to כף הקלע combined with צועה רותחת, for 60k Sounds a bit steep to me.
ReplyDeleteYou probably missed all the other parts like millions of issurei eishes ish, gezeilah, mocking halachah. Etc.
All the children that were kidnapped from their father through Mendel's vicious actions.
ReplyDeleteEnough to hang themselves with?
ReplyDeleteChamishim amo.
ReplyDeleteWow, not Mayvin Psayim, but should be Shomer Psayim.
ReplyDeleteWe already know that this chazzer and neveliah arranged the whole setup, with payments for the 'BD' (sic), and then the goon squad, and all the fixings. It was all planned up front.
And you're stuck on whether they were מומחים?? Really? Because if they weren't so, it was all on the up and up?
"Wondering which families were ruined? "
ReplyDeleteWondering where have you been all these years. ....
Yes, husbands were ruined, wives were ruined with invalid gittin, children born mamzerim were ruined, children whose families were broken were ruined. ...rabbonim were also ruined. ..................
Are you familiar with kol mi she'eino baki betiv Gittin veKidushin.....
ReplyDelete$hekel yi$hokel ha$hor, enini yodea shehi neveilo? Neveilo srucho toivo haymeni.
ReplyDeleteOne thing in their kashrus is for sure. They all are $onei bet$a.
ReplyDeleteI think he was pretty proficient in those laws. Didn't he officiate on Gittin for decades ???
ReplyDeleteHas anyone paskened the kids of Epstein's gittin to be mamzerim ????? Anyone ??? Why are we talking about AF and TE ???? What about all the hundreds of mamzerim from every Get officiated by ME ?????
ReplyDeleteup and up lol !!!!! And all the batei dinim that take 300$ an hour per Dayan for שכר בטלה are YES on the up and up ???? Who are we kidding ??? When ZLT and AT go to ערכאות. When MMS went to ערכאות. When there is no one who goes to בית דין for any dispute nowadays??? When we are all about LEARNING BOYS, and there is כמעט NO functioning בית דין , we are on the up and up ??? When we are all about דעת תורה and not at all about דין תורה, are we really on the up and up ??? Do דיינים need בחינות ?? Or is every בר בי רב דחד יומא a טוען... Give me a break!!!! ME may have been part of the problem, he wasn't the whole problem. Putting the blame on him, is minimizing the disaster we have today called בית דין.
ReplyDeleteגם אלה לחכמים הכר פנים במשפט לא טוב וכה״א ולמוכיחים ינעם ועליהם תבא ברכת טוב.
Agreed. If they were and he was מסייע ידי רשעים, he was a רשע. However, he isn't at all the only רשע !!!!!! What about all the other ״רבנים״ that stand and tell women not to allow their x husbands to see the kids ???? What about all those רשעים who are מחזיק ידי מרעים. ???
ReplyDeleteWhy do we make believe ME invented withholding visitation ???? It happened before him, and after him !! There are plenty of ״רבנים״ besides ME, that play the same game. Perhaps not as well, perhaps not for as much money. It is מעשים שבכל יום, ערב ובוקר וצהרים. There are men all over who never see their kids. The only one who I see standing up for them is the בית דין of הרב גאסטעטנאר!! The problem is a lot bigger than ME.
Before you accuse, make sure you are correct. גזילה ???? Who did he steal from ?? אשת איש perhaps. If they are truly אשת איש, where is the קול קורא about ממזרים ??????? Let's be open and real. Are ME gittin פסול ???? Yes or no ???? Or is this just blog fodder!!!
ReplyDeletePerhaps he is/was a רשע. Let's assume he is, are the גיטין he performed פסול ??? I have not heard one פוסק say that they are פסול. He may have done wrong.
ReplyDeleteAll I know is the one case with the FBI. That case is hard to argue. It shows his בית דין to be a joke. What steps has anyone take to make sure that there isn't more of this going on ? Do we have בתי דינים that are effective ??? Are we getting rid of the jokers ?? Or is everyone scapegoating just one man, and the real joke is on us ???? Where is אגודה ???? Where is the בית דין of the חסידים ???? Why did ZL and A go to court ???? Why don't we fix the wagon ??? Instead of blaming the mud ???
ReplyDeleteI agree.. Where are all the רבנים standing up for fathers, like ORA stands for ״עגונות״ ???? Or is it only ME ????
ReplyDeleteMay result ???? Are they mamzerim ?? Or aren't they mamzerim ??? Why is no one dealing with this ??? Or is it not important enough to deal with ???
ReplyDeleteYou don't need to convince me ME's PSAK BD was a joke. Taking money lol. The bigger joke is on all of us. We have no real BD nowadays. We need to reform the system!!! We need to qualify Dayanim!!! We need to teach our children to use BD. Not Daas Torah, Din Torah.
ReplyDeleteWow, I must have set off a trip wire. That's quite a rant!
ReplyDeleteI'm not even addressing the related ב׳ד problems. That bothers you...fine. But you started the discussion here by coming to the defense (or was it half defense?) of someone who parlayed the BD problems of today into hundreds of thousands of dollars, or perhaps millions. All lining his pockets. (His worthless daughter - appropriately initialed BS - was in on it as well. Hopefully, her day at the Bar Association's Ethics Committee is coming.)
And all directly involved in destroying Jewish families.
Whatever your problems are with the system, know who you're defending the next time you step into the box.
A mamzer registry should be created for the Epstein mamzeirim.
ReplyDeleteYou mean proficient in $hochad. Doesn't he know that a nonexisting husband is not able to give a Get, nor mechuyev a Get, and cannot beat the daylights out of him for no money in the world! A waste of human debris.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone paskened the kids of Epstein's gittin to be mamzerim ????? Anyone ???
ReplyDeleteYes. More than just anyone.
Why did you use five question marks?
What about all the hundreds of mamzerim from every Get officiated by ME ?????
What type of stupidity is this? It's either all gitten are passul or all or good? Please.
And all the batei dinim that take 300$ an hour per Dayan for שכר בטלה are YES on the up and up ????
ReplyDeleteWhat relevance does this have? If you have complaint against Mr. A for not being meticulous in his observance of a certain halacha, then that can somehow justify Mr. B violating the greatest sins? Rambling on about everything in the kitchen sink does not mean much. It is a simple red herring and attempt to divert from the real topic at hand.
R'YSE, Bedatz YAM, for a few.
ReplyDeleteThey all are next on the agenda, ask R'DE.
ReplyDeleteDo a search on this blog and find all the letters of the GEdolei uPoskei haDor about ME mamzerim factory, targeting him specifically.
ReplyDeleteI am not defending ME. I don't know ME. I am against scapegoating. It deflects from the real topic. He is one person. The system needs an overhaul. The education about it needs an overhaul. I hear רבניםז talking about the Internet. Internet אסיפות . What about בית דין ?? We have to teach our children about בית דין. Not about כולל שלא על מנת לעשות . We have to have בתי דינין that are trust worthy and trusted. We obviously don't have them. Why does אגו״י have a מועצת, yet not have a בית דין ??? Why can Satmar (the biggest חסידות) rabbis not be going to בית דין ?? I heard that the דיינים in the באבוב argument make 1,000,000$ Each ?? Is it true ?? We have a crisis a lot bigger than one rotten apple. Scapegoating him, makes believe everything else as far as בית דין is functioning well. Reality is, I don't think it is..
ReplyDeleteSays who ?? Are you paskening ?? Did הגר״ד פיינשטיין say that they are ממזרים ?? whose פסק are you relying on ??
ReplyDeleteThe person who is diverting is you. Scapegoating is the biggest diversion. Deal with the issue. The problem. Transparent בתי דין on the up and up. We need all בתי דין to have a credit score of 1000. We should close any of them that don't.
ReplyDeleteטוב שם משמן טוב ויום המות מיום הולדו וכה״א נבחר שם מעושר רב, מכסף ומזהב חן טוב
Who is RYSE ? Is there a letter from the בד״ץ ? Is anyone doing anything about it ? Does everyone agree ? What does הגר״ד פיינשטיין say ?
ReplyDeleteI don't recall seeing one letter about his גיטין. No clarification on whether the women who got gittin are permitted to stay with their new husbands. No clarity whether the children are ממזרים or not. Only blogs, and opinions of bloggers.
ReplyDeletethere is one already at mamzeralert.blogspot.com
ReplyDeletethen you have rabbis taking exorbitant fees to do Giyur like the scandal involving Rabbi Metzger and Gavriel Cohen from lakewood.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/State-indicts-former-chief-rabbi-Metzger-in-10m-bribery-case-423818
and http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4625057,00.html
Where is the list of children born from second marriages of women who procured their divorce via Epstein's henchmen?
ReplyDeleteWould you marry a child born from second marriages of women who procured their divorce via Epstein's henchmen?
ReplyDeleteLet's get back to the basics.
ReplyDelete1) Mr. Mendel Epstein is a Rosha. Period. I am glad that you understand.
2) Loaded questions mean nothing to me, (other than indicating certain things about you).
3) Scapegoating is the biggest diversion.
Which is what you are doing. You are trying jump on botei din in general to somehow try to defend the indefensible. Has Rabbi Dovid Feinstein passuled botei din for taking the type of money that they take? Has he himself participated with dayanim who take that sort of money? Are you choosy as to when Rabbi Dovid Feinstein's silence is proof?
Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashev said that Mendel Epstein's gitting are pasul/
ReplyDeleteR' Yosef S. Elyashiv spells out very clearly to the detail. Just fetch it on this blog along with others, yogati motzosi.
ReplyDeleteYes, Yes, kesef metaher mamzerim, R' Dovid is in a meeting uboshesh lovo. The letter is nokev umfaresh the name of the Rosh haMamzerim.
ReplyDeleteSays who ?? Are you paskening ?? Did הגר״ד פיינשטיין say that they are ממזרים ??
ReplyDeleteRav Elyashiv has paskened on some of his gitten. Rav Silbershtain has paskened on some. Other ppskim have paskened.
Once you mention Rav Dovid, why is it that you are not upset that RSK paskened without having asked RDF?
כל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bD5k--pUK9E/T52SPSoPlYI/AAAAAAAACmE/4tKw5yBfmHo/s640/Rav+Eliashiv+against+coerced+Get.jpg
ReplyDeleteכל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו
You may be unaware, but according to Mendel's supporters, he was shown a psak from the BD of America before ordering the hit job. I'm no fan of Mendel's, but don't judge a man before reviewing all pertinent evidence.
ReplyDeleteLo roisi einah rayah, there are many bloggers here that do with plenty of clarity. The fact that you try do away with R' Elyashiv with the wipe of your nose is meaningless. There was another one from R' Shternbuch N'Yoir
ReplyDeletehttp://mamzeralert.blogspot.com/
ReplyDeleteAyin sham...
THIS IS A HALACHIC RESPONSA FROM A GREAT TALMUDIC RABBI IN ISRAEL RABBI SHTERNBUCH, WHO CLEARLY REJECTS, OBJECTS AND RIDICULES THE STRATEGY THAT AMERICAN JEWISH WOMEN EMPLOY TO EXTORT THEIR HUSBANDS BY USING THE CIVIL COURTS AND THEN ONCE AGAIN ATTEMPT TO EXTORT A "GET" FROM THEM WITHOUT FAIR DUE PROCESS AT A BAIS DIN. MANY WOMEN THINK THAT BY KEEPING THEIR COURT ORDERS AND THEN GOING TO BAIS DIN IS ACCEPTABLE. IN REALITY RABBI SHTERNBUCH CONDEMMS THIS PRACTICE...
"When there is no one who goes to בית דין for any dispute nowadays??? When we are all about LEARNING BOYS, and there is כמעט NO functioning בית דין , we are on the up and up ??? ... Do דיינים need בחינות ?? Or is every בר בי רב דחד יומא a טוען..."
ReplyDeleteYour information is outdated. Over the past twenty years, there have emerged a number of very competent batei din, staffed by very learned dayanim. Learn the field.
So let him close his nose/ears!
ReplyDelete"We have to have בתי דינין that are trust worthy and trusted. We obviously don't have them."
ReplyDeleteWe do, but the fancy expensive to'anim don't refer people to them, because they are straight. But the system is gradually changing for the better.
"Why does אגו״י have a מועצת, yet not have a בית דין ???"
They do. Over a decade ago, the Novominsker and some Agudah balebatim created Bais Din Tzedek Umishpat, located in downtown Brooklyn, for this purpose, staffed by some of the most learned of dayanim in the US. It wasn't popular, because the to'anim shunned it.
" I heard that the דיינים in the באבוב argument make 1,000,000$ Each ?? Is it true ??"
If it is, it's because of the thousands (!) of hours they clocked, which in turn is the fault of the to'anim who are experts at drawing out the hours.
If each dayan earned one million, you can be sure that each toen made two or more.
However, he isn't at all the only רשע !
ReplyDeleteAgreed!
Why do we make believe ME invented withholding visitation ?
He did not invent it. However, Hashem has put a mechanism in place which can help deal with the problem. It is the Get. Without Mendel, a woman who wants her get will eventually be forced to compromise and stop the kidnapping. Additionally, she would be fearful to even go down that road, since she knows that if she angers her husband in this fashion she will be denied a get.
Mendel took away that weapon. He took the woman's money, and he told her that there will be no consequences.
There are plenty of ״רבנים״ besides ME, that play the same game.
None of them have a way around the get. If she plays that game, she won't receive a get.
If they are truly אשת איש, where is the קול קורא about ממזרים ?
ReplyDeleteCut it out with your loaded questions and complex question fallacies, please.
A lack of kol koreis does not kasher the mamzeirim.
Are ME gittin פסול ?
Many are! Many rabbonim have discussed this already.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bD5k--pUK9E/T52SPSoPlYI/AAAAAAAACmE/4tKw5yBfmHo/s640/Rav+Eliashiv+against+coerced+Get.jpg
Or is this just blog fodder!!
It is as real as Mendel's arrest.
Let's assume he is, are the גיטין he performed פסול ??? I have not heard one פוסק say that they are פסול.
ReplyDeleteMany poskim have written that specific one's are passul. Only the ones that were opened for reviewed received a psak. All those that remain hidden, cannot receive a psak. It does not kasher them, though.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bD5k--pUK9E/T52SPSoPlYI/AAAAAAAACmE/4tKw5yBfmHo/s640/Rav+Eliashiv+against+coerced+Get.jpg
The fact that he may have been involved in a few kosher gitten does not mean anything.
What steps has anyone take to make sure that there isn't more of this going on ?
ReplyDeletePlease offer suggestions. Because we cannot fix everything, does not mean that we should not put a stop to it when can.
Some issues have to dealt behind closed doors, since Hakol vehapirsum eino yofeh lohen. They need the help of nitmeu and manufacturing sfeikos. Just like the Etrogim you shouldn't handle too much with fingerprints because that creates Blatt fleckin.
ReplyDeleteKol hakavod lecha!!! Osiyos machkimos
ReplyDeleteThere is another one, I think from R' Shternbuch where he is nokev umfaresh es hashem Epstein sharya. But I think this guy has a tendency to hijack discussions umatil dofi at his whim.
ReplyDeleteThe BDA issued a Siruv *not* a psak. And the BDA Siruv was *only* for failure to respond and appear in beis din in response to a hazmana. The BDA Siruv was *not* for failing to give a Get after being ordered to give one by a beis din.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, the BDA issued their Siruv despite the fact that the so-called "husband" (of what turned out to be a non-Jewish female FBI agent) didn't even exist. So how can the BDA be issuing a Siruv against a man when he doesn't even exist?
But even putting aside the BDA's misdeeds, when Mr. Epstein saw the BDA Siruv that did not permit him to physically coerce a husband into giving a Get.
according to Mendel's supporters, he was shown a psak from the BD of America before ordering the hit job.
ReplyDeleteWas he unaware of how easy it is to obtain such a psak from the BDA? Was not responsible to research the BDA prior to using them as his excuse to beat a guy?
Think about it: The BDA was happy enough putting out a siruv on man without ever verifying his address, or whether he had indeed received the their letters. (This is besides the fact that the BDA has no jurisdiction over Jews residing in Florida.) The BDA's excuse that the FBI agent showed him an email that was supposedly from the man, is pure stupidity. That means that any woman that would like to put out a siruv on her estranged husband or ex husband, can just provide a PO box that she owns as an address, or an address of a friend etc, concoct an email and voila, a "siruv" is born!
Hashem brought it that both, ME's and BDA's shenanigans should be revealed to the world! Please see the Targum on the Passuk "Sof dovor...." https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/060408da73a784e5af128d970a6ca6839cd7d92e44ca1eb8b361bf0ea3b82372.jpg
1. Not having בתי דין in a basement. חכמת המזכן בזויה ודבריו אינם נשמעים. We have to treat the בית דין respectfully, if we want others to.
ReplyDelete2. Transparency. Every din Torah deserves an open Psak din. People have to be comfortable knowing that Beis din are not acting fraudulently.
3. Chinuch. Teaching children. That going to court is not alright. Not tenant landlord, not family court. Not Supreme Court.
4. No charge. I don't care if the קהילה pays for דיינים. Paying when you go to בית דין is the antithesis of what we want our בתי דינין to look like.
5. Getting rid of people who don't have a good name, and בתי דינין that don't have a good name. We can't afford to have our בתי דין זbe disrespected. מעשיך יקרבוך מעשיך ירחקוך. We need to uphold the top standards when it comes to Beis din.
If you are speaking against הגר״ד I am putting you in חרם.
ReplyDeleteOk. It is surprising that we don't hear a word about it. Why does the המון עם not know ??
ReplyDeleteSo far the sting did the Job well. It brought all the criminals to justice. The harsher the sentence, the less chance of having it repeated. Look at the Kams, they tried to be inventive but they are stuck in the doldrums.
ReplyDeleteYour idea that a Get was made by Hashem in order to prevent a woman from withholding visitation is wrong, and has no mkor in Halacha. Nor does it work. It is just like withholding a חליצה for money.
ReplyDeleteLike it or not, the whole AF TE fiasco, ORA, ME, got their power from people who are either involved, or sick, of those using a Get as a tool and as a weapon. The results, are what we have in front of us. Halachically you can. You can also use קדשתי את בתי as a weapon. Perhaps there are other weapons to use as well. אין רוח חכמים נוחה הימנו.
The whole thing seems to be a joke. We need respectable בתי דין. Who don't take money. The קהילה should pay a salary. Otherwise, how is it even possible to be דן the דין פרוטה. If it costs 600$-900$ an hour to go to בית דין. Do you think that the cost is perhaps the reason בית דין is almost never used by anyone other than big business deals ?
ReplyDeleteWe've heard reports that Rav Elyashiv was unaccepting of Epstein's tactics and gittin for years. Even during his lifetime this was known. If I recall this fact was discussed on this blog years ago already.
ReplyDeleteThat's exactly why the sting was set up. Do you think he got caught by accident? Mendelism is out!
ReplyDeleteand has no mkor in Halacha
ReplyDeleteHave you seen the Rama in Seder Haget?
אין רוח חכמים נוחה הימנו.
Buddy, you need to cite some real sources. Your emotions just 'aint gonna cut it.
טענו חיטים והודה לו בשעורים
ReplyDeleteכל תלמיד חכם שאין בו דעת נבלה טובה הימנו
We need respectable בתי דין.
ReplyDeleteWe do, but the average baal din follows the advice of his toen and goes to the one most suited to him. Additionally, every din Torah produces an angry losing baal din who wants to believe that the BD is corrupt, which further aggravates the reputations of batei din. There are batei din today that are fully competent, no less than today's roshei yeshiva or rabbonim are in their respective fields.
Who don't take money. The קהילה should pay a salary.
Batei Din have been taking money - from the baalei din - for at least the past three hundred years. See Ch.M 9, Tumim and Chochmas Shlomo there.
Otherwise, how is it even possible to be דן the דין פרוטה. If it costs 600$-900$ an hour to go to בית די
Are you aware that there are batei din that have a small claims department, where people can get a free psak?
Do you think that the cost is perhaps the reason בית דין is almost never used by anyone other than big business deals ?
Not true.
It is ALL about $Money.
ReplyDelete"Are you aware that there are batei din that have a small claims department, where people can get a free psak?"
ReplyDeleteWhich batei din have such a service? (Do they use three dayanim and an official Din Torah?)