Wednesday nite on a local NY / NJ radio program by R Dovid Lichtenstein (a Lakewood real estate gvir, who wrote a book and gives a Lakewood shiur on current topics in halacha) R Nochum Eisenstein was interviewed regarding the Memphis "hafkaat kiddushin" case. (the program will probably be rebroadcast in NY metro area at 11PM motzei Shabbat on 570AM radio, and online at Nachum Segal. check their for schedules, other stations, and podcasts.)
The format of this program, as one can see at http://podcast.headlinesbook.com, is leading poskim and rabbonim on issues of the day.
Rav Eisenstein was "mesharet baKodesh" to Rav Yosef Shlomo Elyashiv for thirty years, specializing in kiddushin and giyur matters, and is currently the av bet din for Rav Elyashiv's bet din on this matter.
Rav Lichtenstein's office sent me a link to the program's recording at dropbox .
Rav Eisenstein begins at approximately 38:30.
Some highlights:
Rav Elyashiv was very insistent that there is no hakfkaat kiddushin today. perhaps by a godol like Rav Moshe Feinstein, but that’s it.
Everything must be done "befanav" (in front of him) husband and wife, before a "proper bet din"
Rav Lichtenstein said he spoke with Rav Greenblatt, who told him he did this twice in sixty years, this is the second time (meaning Rav Greenblatt did the "hafakaah" and the subsequent kiddushin.)
Rav Eisenstein said that Rav Greenblatt is from the "gedolei america", but he added that "transparency will be the answer for everything" "there is no 'makor' (source) (in this case) for 'mekach taut' since they were living together and had a child together."
The discussion then turned to the issue of prenuptuals. "Rav Elyashiv was against any type of prenup" because of "asmachta" (though Rav Lichtenstein said there are solutions, but to Rav Elyashiv, they were "no good.") that was a halachic opposition. he Rav Elyashiv also had a hashkafic opposition that they were " not the derech of yisrael sabbah . . . not the way kiddushin is done."
Rav Eisenstein had an extensive discussion with Rav Dovid Feinstein this past summer on various issues, and he is authorized to quote Rav Dovid that "Rav Moshe was against all prenuptuals" halachically and hashkafically.
He also quoted Rav Dovid that the "agunah problem is entirely out of proportion". and Rav Eisenstein goes on to say that he has handled numerous gitten, and they can always be solved, but once the parties get bad advice from bad sources, they are much more difficult to solve, and only then does one have problem solving them.
Just to clarify: This is not Rabbi Nochum Eisenstein of Forest Park, Lakewood; it is a rabbi of the same name from Yerushalyim.
ReplyDeleteCorrection: the tshuvot of RMF refers to 'get laws', not prenups.
ReplyDeleteThe Rov in this story is a godol who was originally from the United States. He was also one of the closest rabbonim to Rav Elyashev zt"l and frequently communicated messages from Rav Elyashev during his lifetime.
ReplyDeleteLol lol lol, so we have a dead rabbis sexton giving opinions, how stupid is this
ReplyDeleteWe have a living gadol who ruled, and your bringing me a gabbai!!!!!!!!!!!
And BTW I heard from many masadrei gittin that rav elyashiv never was mesader a get ever
ReplyDeleteWhile rav Greenblatt was mesader thousands!!!!!!!
I was surprised to see David's description below, that Eisenstein is known as a godol.
ReplyDeleteWhere?
Among talmidei chachamim?
Even among Rav Elyashiv's actual talmidim?
Rav Moshe Mordechai Karp, for instance?
I had thought that the informed consensus was that he made his name not through accomplishments in learning, writing, shiurim, or piety, but through self-promotion, greatly exaggerating his influence with Rav Elyashiv.
In other words, a power broker and influence peddler, not a "godol."
Perhaps I'm wrong.
David -- could you enlighten me?
Nathan is that proof that he hasn't made an elemenatry error by not requiring a Get in this case?! Not aware of anyone who holds that Rabbi Greenblatt is bigger than Rav Eliashiv - except for perhaps you.
ReplyDeleteNathan - you are ignoring the clear fact that it is Rabbi Greenblatt and the Kaminetskys against the world as this point. Please bring evidence that anybody of significance - who knows the facts of this case - actually agrees with him.
ReplyDeleteMMHY: Which teshuvos Rav Moshe and which parantehesis and which comment are you referring to and correcting?
ReplyDeleteNathan: So you threw your Shulchan Aruch in the garbage since the Mechaber was niftar and is no longer with us?
ReplyDeleteRabbi, the couple have been married well over a month, and you give us NOTHING
ReplyDelete1) gestetner = meshugana
2) miller = extremist who said if I'm ok with it then its OK and the kids are kosher
3) eisentein = gabai of rav elyashiv, who never commneted on this case ever
And the Mechaber was never mesader a chalitza or yibum or many other halachas that are practiced, so you obviously disregard the Shulchan Aruch on things the Mechaber doesn't have first-hand experience with.
ReplyDeleteRav Elyashev and his talmidim consider Rav Eisenstein to be a godol.
ReplyDeleteNathan - there a many others who disagree with this heter that I am personally aware of but I haven't heard of any one who agrees with Rav Greenblatt and the Kaminetsky's.
ReplyDeleteI erased the parentheses from the original post
ReplyDeleteI still don't see which tehuva of Rav Moshe that MMHY is correcting. The main post here doesn't refer to any teshuva of Rav Moshe.
ReplyDeleteProvides us with proclamations from them
ReplyDeleteOr it means NOTHING
Lol, lol, rav elyashiv never wrote about this thus it means nothing
ReplyDeleteIt means nothing to you - but it doesn't change the reality that I know to be true.
ReplyDeleteIt means nothing to me and to a million of other frum jews
ReplyDeleteOn the above link at http://podcast.headlinesbook.com on the "10/17/15 The Agunah Crisis (rerun)", Rav Dovid Cohen shlit"a, at about the 25 minute mark, says he could support a husband who doesn't give a Get because the wife refuses to let him have a relationship with their children, until she stops interfering with the husband's relationship with the children.
ReplyDeleteWell said Michoel, he's a nobody who is a self declared expert on gittin and geirut, noone serious takes any notice of him
ReplyDeleteReb zalman nechem goldberg agrees with the hetter
ReplyDeleteR'G admitted he had no input in the heter nisuin just clompletely relied on what he was told. That means all the experience in the world was not applied in this case and didn't help him. We also know that R'K is not a Baki betiv GvK halacha lema'asse. And the hafkaah was based on falseified informatiom asher lo hoyo velo nivra. Bring us real hard facts, not hallucinations and no sodos of mumchim diagnosing alleged "DISODES", and disclose us the witnesses. The heter is a sod, the Rabonim are a sod, mumchim dayonim, letters is a sod. Go sell it for the birds. Ki besodom horgu ish. BTW who was his first hafka'a, was that tackled by himself or the same kind of hocus pocus?
ReplyDeleteExcept for Yehoshea bin Nun.
ReplyDeleteCould you be specific?
ReplyDeleteHow do you know?
What are their names?
You perhaps refer to other members of the gang of power brokers / influence peddlers who latched on to Rav Elyashiv and exploited him (of which there were many)?
In any event, where did they publish such words about Eisenstein?
Perhaps in their haskomos to Rav Nochum's multi-volume profound analyses of Shas that will be studied for the next 50 years?
Or maybe to his multi-volume, in-depth Shu"T that will be eagerly studied by poskim for the next 50 years?
Could be I'm wrong, but I hadn't known such publications exist!
David, please help me out, as I assume you're not throwing these words around lightly.
Thanks!
Nathan we have been there before - the Kraus Beis Din also claimed support for Rabbi Goldberg which he denied.
ReplyDeleteNot commenting on the now-tiresome soap opera case of the modern spoiled brat feuding couple that has dragged in rabbis who should have stayed out of the fight and let the couple boil in their own juice. Always a good policy when trouble-makers come to you, to show them the door, or even better, just don't let them in and let them scream at other in the streets.
ReplyDeleteBut that aside, it is fascinating to watch as, like in a terrible raging fire, it attracts bystanders and pundits and yet more rabbis who join in the fray.
In this regard, Rabbi Nochum Eisenstein from Israel is no stranger to long-time readers and contributers to this blog! He was a key ally and player in the now-defunct EJF-Tropper fiasco, and was even implicated in the scandal that brought Tropper down with allegations about liaisons secret videos even about him circulating at the time.
But what is known is that this blog devoted much time and space years ago to Rabbi Nochum Eisenstein and most of it was not complimentary either. Although there was a post by the name of "Mekubal" who tried to explain many of the problems this blog had with the way R Eisenstein allied with Tropper and his controversial actions.
What was known at the time, and still is true is that it was Rav Kreiswerth from Antwerp who promoted Rabbi Eisenstein and with the blessings of Rav Elyashiv set up a still ongoing "Bais Din LeInyanei Giur" based in Israel. They lost a lot of credibility with the downfall of EJF and Tropper who was working with them, but the name of Rabbi Eisenstein still pops up in news stories when certain Geirim re-tell their stories (e.g. in Mishpacha or Ami) and how they eventually met with Rabbi Eisenstein who tells them they need to do their Geirus all over again, because he is a huge MACHMIR and does not recognize any other Bais Din besides his own evidently!
So his field is GEIRUS, and was NEVER that of GITTIN or questions about KIDDUSHIN, only in so far as that relates to GEIRUS, but in this case currently causing controversy, there is no Geirus angle, so why is Rabbi Eisenstein getting involved at all?
It can only mean he is seeing an opportunity to fight MEIKILIM in general, insofar as it would help his own personal crusade to impose his CHUMRAS in the field of Geirus, and so this is just an opportunity for him to offload on the Kaminetzkys who embody the MEIKILIM and generally the voice of sanity in the American Aguda world, and always have.
Nathan - you are truly a prophet - you know that a million frum Jews agree with you. Next you will claim that Rav Moshe Feinstein and Rav Eliashiv agree with you.
ReplyDeleteWhat a joke - you can't even produce the document that you claim to have
RaP it is unfortunate that you can empathize with either the husband and wife in this case.
ReplyDeleteNo it is not reducible to your categorization that they are spoiled brat feuding couple. After all your obsession with Rav Aharon Schechter could also be reduced to some trivial description - but it doesn't contribute anything to say so.
Thanks for the feedback. Let's just see how it unfolds. Basically the bottom line implications of what you are trying to do is to unseat the Kaminetzkys from their very high perch in the Aguda world in America, and it does not look like you will succeed. You are not going to get Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky kicked off the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah because once one is appointed to that very powerful body there is life tenure, like on the US Supreme court, it is impossible to unseat a justice simply because you vehemently disagree with one of his controversial rulings that breaks the mold.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed reading what you have to say about RAS, simply because in the Hersh, Tropper and Dodelson cases you took a lead in attacking his stand. And it was your choice to head in that direction and not mine.
But you miss an important COMMONALITY between both rav Shmuel Kaminetzky and Rav Aron Schechter and that is that theer membership of the American Moetzes Gedolei haTorah INSULATES them from being "impeached" and as you can see it gives them a vast immunity even from blatant MISTAKES they made. Just as RAS can ignore past rulings coming from Rav Moshe Feinstein, likewise Rav Kaminetsky can ignore what other rabbis say in disagreement.
Likewise Rav Reuven Feinstein was insulated from the fall-ou and disgrace of the Tropper affair, he is still a famous Rosh Yeshiva in very high standing in the American Aguda world, even though Rav Reuven Feinstein backed Tropper to the hilt and even received millions from the same sources as Tropper such as from Guma Aguiar, yet Rav Reuven Feinstein was neither hurt nor was he brought down. Similarly with Rav Dovid Feinstein, he had immunity even though he was backing the Weiss side and was opposed by the entire Lakewood world backed by RAS.
Thus, positions of high power insulate and immunize the top people from the kind of actions and punishments and consequences that would befall less powerful rabbis and lesser power-brokers.
Likewise, Rav Malkiel Kotler can get away with a Heter Mei'h Rabbanim and still keep his prestige, status and kavod as a leading Rosh Yeshiva!
Thus, the Kaminetzkys, the Feinsteins, the Kotkers, and yes even the big Hutnerians, like Rav Aron Schechter and RAF can get away with things that lesser folks cannot, because they are TORAH DYNASTIES and fighting them, while very noble, is like trying to fight city hall so to speak. It is only a matter of principle, but the there will not be any downfall of these powerful groups at this time. That is a job for the true Mashiach!!
That is a commonality that all these top rabbis share, whether we like it or not.
The burden of proof lies on the person seeking to extricate a woman from חזקת אשת איש.
ReplyDeleteUntil such proof is provided, כלל ישראל is obligated to consider this woman an adulteress, with all its ramifications...
RaP, you keep bringing up Rav Malkiel Kotler's Heter Mei'h Rabbanim, as if this is a matter that should disqualify a person from serving as a Rosh Yeshiva, and imply that any prestige and honor he receives is undeserved.
ReplyDeleteI don't know any Torah source for such sentiments. Can you provide any?
Although RaP might not want my support, I think he is right on this matter.
ReplyDeletea) Eisenstein is already a has been. He is no longer supported by Rav Elyashiv, and the current leaders in Israel are not interested in promoting him.
b) In America, you have to deal with Aguda, and what someone in the Eda says doesn't really count. Even when Brisk went out against Rav Shach, it was a useless rage, which converted no one in the Litvish world.
c) In the USA, the only ally you may find is R Gestetner, but nobody knows him, again other than the few Eda-nicks.
So if you think that this controversy will be as big as the one against Rav Goren, that is highly unlikely. Goren was not in Aguda, and was working basically as his own man, and therefore was easy to get the Hareidim to gang together agaisnt him. The same response will not happen vis a vis RSK.
Well said rap
ReplyDeleteIt's not where you go, it who you know, if your connected to the right ppl, you can get a hetter for anything
The joke that they make of the torah
The proof is the fact that the well known gadol reb nuta Greenblatt was matir her
ReplyDeleteלכבוד הרב הגאון רבי נטע גרינבלאט שליט"א
ReplyDeleteאני מקבל סברתו בזה , דאף שלא נפרדה מבעלה תיכף כשנודע ממחלתו, אם יש רגלים לדבר שהסיבה היה שעדיין לא היה לה דירה מסודרת וכדומה, יש להאמינה בזה ולכן אין לומר דסברא וקבלה מכח זה
ואפשר להתירה מסברא זו, וטוב עשה כת"ר שעומד על על משמרתו, וזכה להתיר אומללה זו מכבלי עיגונותא
זנג
Seems like you're suddenly singing from a different hymnbook ...
ReplyDeleteRav Eisenstein shlit"a has long long been involved in kiddushin and gittin under Rav Elyashev. For many decades.
ReplyDeleteYou said this before. And I said, as far as i understood, a better description would be henchman / political operator / hanger-on / influence peddler. Notorious for his association with Tropper, for instance.
ReplyDeleteYou disagree?
Prove it.
Show one place where Rav Elyashiv wrote that Eisenstein's a "godol." Show one place where any talmidei chachamim call him that, in writing.
One.
Go ahead.
Rav Eisenstein is a highly regarded Rov across the Chareidi world, especially in Eretz Yisroel amongs the recognized gedolim and their followers.
ReplyDeleteI have no idea, vat u meen, u coming to malavda malka to shul, u giv cash ,I give hetter, very lot cash very lot hetter
ReplyDeleteOr an artful dodger who was almost implicated in troppergate and other sex for certificate scandals
ReplyDeleteHighly-regarded among Americans for his supposed access to power (so he claims) and as a "fixer."
ReplyDeleteAny documented proof that he is respected for his learning?
The Torah joke
ReplyDeleteTrooper paid 500 USD to tens of big rabbis per months, he had them eating out of his hands
To mention some
Elya ber wachtfogel
Chanoch ehentrau
Moshe shaul klein
And many other, they covered for him when he ran he's questionable shabatons, and so on
Even when trooper was rumored to have taken liberties with female conversion candidates they covered for him, lest they loose there 500 USD
Even when the sex tapes surfaced, he received a hero's welcome In rav elyashiv abode, how come
Aryeh elyashiv for 2 grand to arrange it
No mention of this 'disorder' in civil court, mention in the press that she had no issues with him, the notes that he's all right, just not for her, her independently wealthy status so sh can go to any hotel in the world, she in fact did run off to mommy, she did in fact take a separate apartment.
ReplyDeleteAnd what was this 'disorder'? Being an introvert? Plenty of women would like that?
Unfortunately, many batei din are adopting a policy of not recognizing other batei din. Can't hold that against rav eisenstein.
ReplyDeleteSome thoughts on Get on Demand:
ReplyDeleteI understand that Get on Demand is not halachically or hashkafically correct. The question is, are we helping the situation by opposing it. Nothing I am suggesting will increase divorce or hurt the husband in any way. I am
just saying that what is important is not if in theory the marriage is workable
if the woman would let it work. What is important is if there is a real chance that it will actually work. Who is to blame is not relevant. If there is no chance of the marriage working – even if it “could” work if the woman would allow it to – then it is best for everyone to move on and get divorced, and bring up a new family.
Times have changed. In earlier times if a Bais Din ruled that a woman does not deserve a Get, the woman went back to her husband. But in the year 2015, when the Dayan tells a woman who is insisting on a divorce to go back to her husband, is she listening? I am not aware of a single case like that. So what is the point of fighting against get on demand so late in the process?
Granted a Get shouldn’t be given in 15 seconds. We should require the woman to wait a few months to calm down, speak to Rabbi/Rebbetzin, and marriage counselor. But if no one can convince her to change her mind, it makes sense to give in to her demand for a Get. It is best for both of them to move on with their lives.
Ironically, I think that the war against Get on demand has the opposite effect than intended. If a husband tells her that he will never give her a Get, she won’t have the frame of mind to listen to the persuasion of the Rabbi/Rebbetzin. She will feel like a caged animal desperate to get out, and she will lose any remaining warm feelings that are necessary for a viable marriage. But if the husband tells her that he wants her to first try marriage counseling etc., and if afterwards she still wants a Get then he will give it, she will be much more receptive.
Here are some other considerations:
(a) If a woman has to prove that her husband is bad to end a marriage, than that causes the whole nastiness of a messy divorce. It causes true, false, and exaggerated allegations against the husband. It would be smarter if we let the woman be polite and say, “he is a nice guy, but just not for me”, (this is what happens in the business world) if we don’t, then what we are really asking for is the true, false, and exaggerated allegations.
(b) The Bais Din is not willing to rule on the division of custody and money, because they are ruling that the marriage should continue. This is causing the woman to go to secular court as custody and money need to be divided since she isn’t willing to live together. Many of these woman would have never gone to secular court had Bais Din recognized the need for a Get and started proceeding on division of custody and money.
(c) Many of the agunah cases started out with the husband insisting on no divorce (he wasn’t even willing to discuss custody/money.) Then, when he realizes that she will never live with him, he is angry about his legal costs, and then angry about the court’s custody arrangements, which all could have been prevented.
(d) I believe that those divorces that are smooth, happens because the husband preserves a working relationship by agreeing to divorce as soon as it becomes obvious that the marriage will not work. One need not be a Navi to know that a woman suing for divorce in Bais Din will never agree to continue the marriage notwithstanding any decisions of the Dayan. So what difference does it make if it is the woman’s fault, and if the marriage could work if the woman lets it work?
(e) We must educate the frum community on the importance of staying married and working through problems. But the focus of this campaign should be in books, articles, Yeshiva, Bais Yaakov, chason kallah classes, etc. but at this late stage – when the woman is suing in Bais Din – to insist on no Get on Demand – while correct in theory – is counterproductive. What exactly is being accomplished?
You are simply advocating to change Halacha. The fact of the matter is that the Torah says that a divorce is not an entitlement and cannot be received simply because it is wanted. Torah and Halacha tell us to fight for the preservation of the marriage. That is what a Kesuba is all about. To make it hard to get divorced.
ReplyDeleteIf a spouse wishes to remain married, the other spouse cannot simply demand a divorce because “he is a nice guy, but just not for me”. If the spouse realizes she cannot get a divorce without (halachic) "cause", she will know that if she runs away from her marriage without halachic justification she will become a self-made agunah, and it will be her fault only and not her husbands, and she will rightfully grow old and gray alone and very lonely.
This Torah and Halachic ban on divorce-on-demand helps avoid these unjustified divorces and helps preserve marriages. Knowing this will be her situation many spouses will not seek to demand an unjustified divorce-on-demand. Countless marriages never ended in divorce due to the Torah ban on divorce-on-demand. Most of these spouses never even sought a divorce, knowing this Halacha, and simply remained married. If the Halacha was divorce-on-demand, many more spouses would have simply ditched their marriages on a whim or less or in other situation where it was and is preservable.
Certainly there would be many more divorced with divorce-on-demand. This can even be seen in America, where previously divorces had to be justified in civil court or the court would deny the divorce petition. New York became the final State to implement No-Fault Divorce in 2010.
The spouses that go to non-Jewish court, kneged halacha, would almost certainly have done so regardless. They want to use the non-Jewish laws that favor them over the Jewish laws. This is no reason to change Jewish law. When this happens, the recourse is for beis din to not finalize any Get until any gains achieved in secular court are reverses, including legal costs that the victimized spouse incurred, and any custody and asset decisions made in secular court are reversed. Until then, no Get. (If the husband is the victim, he could get a heter meah.)
A party who makes clear they will refuse to follow halacha, is no reason to disregard and/or change halacha.
That is what a Kesuba is all about. To make it hard to get divorced.
ReplyDeleteNot really relevant. The takanah of kesubah (assuming it is d'rabanan) was to make it hard for the husband to divorce his wife, so he wouldn't just do it spur of the moment. It was not to make it hard for the wife to get a divorce when she wanted one.
You are missing my point. I am with you in being against divorce on demand.
ReplyDeleteWhat I am saying is don’t fight against the divorce at such a late stage in the process in a case that you can't convince her to stay. If you could convince the woman to stay in the marriage, then go ahead and encourage her. But stop fighting against the divorce one it becomes obvious that she will not change her mind. Once her decision is final, it is surely best for the husband to move on and to work out custody/money and give the Get.
A husband shouldn’t be trying to save the world and to refuse
a Get as a warning to other woman! A husband should be doing what is likely to cause himself the maximum happiness. That entails not acting in anger which might only serve to harm his wife, but instead to look for his own happiness. If his wife’s decision is final, then certainly he is best off to ask Bais Din to decide custody/money and then give a Get, remarry and have many more children.
Not sure why you don’t realize that just because Get on
Demand is wrong, that doesn’t mean it is smart for the husband to fight it when he is just harming himself. Not sure how the husband is benefiting by refusing to finalize custody and money in Bais Din and then give the Get. I am just
advocating what most husbands are already doing – moving on with their lives, getting remarried, and having a bunch more kids.
And, if it is best for the husband to move on – then it is
best whether the woman’s “reason” for the divorce is a good reason, bad reason, or even no reason. She might be evil for
being determined to divorce because he isn’t good at basketball, but that doesn’t change how it is best for the husband to proceed. This all assumes that enough time has passed and enough people have spoken to her that you realize that her decision is final.
Are you saying that even when we know that the woman won’t change her mind that a husband shouldn’t move on and give the Get? How will this approach benefit the husband? And if it is not benefiting the husband then why is he doing it?
He may think that he was "mattir" her, but he is still ignoring an explicit halacha in Shulchan Aruch (YD 242:10)
ReplyDeleteA rabbi who makes an unusual permissive ruling,
is obligated by halacha to clarify his ruling. As per the Shulchan Aruch (YD 242:10) a rabbi is not allowed to permit something that people perceive as being prohibited. Period.
שולחן ערוך (יו"ד סי' רמב, סעי' י) "יש מי שכתב
אסור לחכם להתיר דבר התמוה שנראה לרבים שהתיר את האסור".
However the Shach, in his commentary, formulates a leniency, in a case where the rabbi provides a clear rationalization for his ruling.
A reasonable person will agree that a ruling permitting an "eishes ish" to remarry without having received a Get, qualifies as an "unusual ruling". As such, the rabbis involved in this liberal dispensation are either halachically prohibited from making such pronouncements (as per
the Shulchan Aruch), or they are duty bound to explain the basis for their leniency (as per the Shach).
The public is waiting to hear the defense of this unusual ruling. The burden to explain such a ruling lies on those who made it. Until they do so, the ruling is allowed to be criticized. In fact, it MUST be criticized, since this is part and parcel of the halachic process.
Lol, she found out about his problems later, she was told that he had a preexisting condition, she was looking for a normal place to live, Tamar is a responsible young lady, she does not live a rich lifestyle, she works for a living, and lives of Her own money!!
ReplyDeleteI'm originally from gush katif and currently live in BS, but I miss my life there every day
ReplyDelete(c) Many of the agunah cases started out with the husband insisting on no divorce (he wasn’t even willing to discuss custody/money.) Then, when he realizes that she will never live with him, he is angry about his legal costs, and then angry about the court’s custody arrangements, which all could have been prevented.
ReplyDelete(d) I believe that those divorces that are smooth, happens because the husband preserves a working relationship by agreeing to divorce as soon as it becomes obvious that the marriage will not work.
I am not sure where you picked your statistics up from. The reality is different than the rose colored way you would like to perceive it. There are many, many cases where the husband gave a get on-demand, yet his ex-wife and her family waged an all-out war against him - after the get. Of course, the woman and agunah groups were there to help. False allegations, denied visitations and all the other goodies women and their advocates have turned into "proper" weapons of war.
Lets clarify a couple of misconceptions which may have brought about your erroneous conclusions.
1) There can be no comparison between secular marriages and marriages of Torah-true Jews. The only way you will be able to get rid of the animosity, anger and upset feelings that exist in Frum divorces is by avoiding the divorce. When marriage means so much to us - as it should! - these type of emotions will unfortunately surface.
2) The type of disgusting behavior that does go in Frum divorces has to be rejected by us, as a community. While it is hard to expect all hurt people to control their anger and their quest for the sweetness of revenge, we can be there to stop them. If we make it clear to ourselves that we will not tolerate our friends, family and acquaintances behaving this way, it will stop most of the nastiness; the divorcing parties will be afraid of being ostracized for their nasty behaviors.
One thing is certain: attempting to emulate and imitate the secular marital attitudes will not do us any good.
No. But still, it is Rav Aaron Scheter's fault!
ReplyDeletethe well known gadol reb nuta Greenblatt
ReplyDeleteWho??
Navel (Menuval) Birshus haTorah.
ReplyDeleteNot living up to one's prior commitments, not sure which "chelek" that is in though, do you?
The opinion of his Shver HaGaon Rav Michel Feinstein and of his wife that he agreed at the time of the marriage never to leave Eretz Yisroel.
Halachos that have to do with what allows one to leave EY and what does not.
Such a public personality should make public who the "meah rabbanim" were that signed for him to take a Tzora. Let's see the original to see who was on board and more importantly who did not sign and why!
Sure Rav Shach and RAS were all for it, gezunterheit, they were not the source or cause of the problem, but who was it that came to them to tell them that BMG "needed" Malkiel, after all, he is just a figurehead and everyone knows that BMG runs itself, it does not need a figure-head leader with no real power over them.
Why is Rav Aron Kotler grandson Malkiel a "hero" and is "rewarded" with a seat on the American Moetzes in spite of getting married to a second woman with a Heter Mei'ah Rabbaninm, while Rav Aron Kotker Eidim Rav Dov Shwartzman who was a genuine Velt's Gaon was a Nirdaf and is regarded as a near-criminal "villain" because he gave a Kosher Get and divorced Rav Aron Kotler's daughter who was a tough nut all along?
These may be real questions, shaylos and kashyas if you think about it as a SUGYA, that makes your question sound stupid if you really think about it!!
Grow up man!!! Fact is stranger than fiction!
Because it is unnecessarily for the kesuba to need to make it difficult for the wife to receive a divorce she wants that her husband doesn't wish to give, because the Torah HaKedosha itself makes it nearly impossible for her to demand a divorce without halachic grounds (which themselves are quite rare).
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, the Torah makes it very easy for the husband to divorce his wife even if she doesn't wish to get divorced. So the Kesuba (and other rabbinical impediments) are placed in front of the husband to slow him down and make it more difficult to divorce his wife.
It was not to make it hard for the wife to get a divorce when she wanted one.
ReplyDeleteTrue. There was no need for the Rabbana to make such a takannah- Hashem already made that takanna! Hashem decreed that a woman cannot divorce herself from her marriage just because she wanted to. Hashem required her husband to agree.
The Shulchan Aruch and other Halachic codes give numerous cases where when the wife is deadset in demanding a divorce and the husband doesnt want to get divorced, the divorce is not granted to her. Why didnt the halacha take your point into consideration?
ReplyDeleteI submit that one answer (among others) is because if a wife makes an unjustifiable demand for a divorce, and if we say that if she stands her ground long enough in her unjustifiable demand then we eventually must grant her demand, then this practice will undermine Jewish marriages and over the long-term lead to the breakup of numerous marriages that would have otherwise not been broken in the absence of such public policy.
No, not "fault" silly, but he was DELIGHTED out of his box that he now had the vulnerable Malkiel trapped in the palm of his hand since it was to the daughter big old time CBer Rav Tikotzky that Malkiel got "married" to a second time, and the question is interesting as to who "red" the shidduch and who pushed it along? And how and why was it davka a Talmid of Rav Gutner who gave "respectability" to the union?
ReplyDeleteit was after all RAS who danced the hardest and happiest at Malkiel's wedding to Tikotzky's daughter according to eyewitnesses who were there!! That kind of "happiness" and Menuchas HaNefesh was NOT granted to Rav Dov Schwartzman though because he had the temerity to stand up to Rav Hutner and unceremoniously kicked him (Rav Hutner) out of Bais HaTalmud in Yerushalayim, something that RAS never forgave Rav Dov for for the rest of his life and never even spoke to or looked at him again.
Yeah, but for Malkiel wild heterim, a choshuva Chaim Berliner's sheina Meidal, rikkudim, smiles, smiles and more smiles, and shove him onto the Moetzes (just because BMG is so "big") while keeping out any potential rivals to RAS's power and influence on the Moetzes. So when RAS says "jump" Malkiel jumps, and when Malkiel needs a favor, like to get a heter to shmeer the Weisses and Feinsteins in the trashy New York Post, RAS will gladly give a heter for that to go to the yellow media, and even use a publicist who isn't even Frum, to destroy the Feinsteins and even to boycott and damage the good name of ArtScroll.
Isn't it fun to be a Gadol, you can get to do what you went when you feel like as the mood grabs you! Oh, wait, and if Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky does something to help another Yiddisha meidal escape her tormenter, then oyoyoyoyoy, is he "rosha" and must be driven from the Moetzes and tarred and feathered, so that RAS can rule the roost all by himself. So this is all ONLY about power politics in the Aguda world, and everyone else is just a pawn in much larger and wider "chess game" between rival Torah dynasties in the USA!
Such is life when you are on the "winning" team! This is the way the mafia works, is it also the way Klal Yisroel is supposed to work and be run? Dunno, whadya say bud?
RaP - your explanation has nothing to do with halacha.
ReplyDeleteI deleted your second comment because it was an extreme and absurd spin on events.
Honesty says “There are many, many cases where the
ReplyDeletehusband gave a get on-demand, yet his ex-wife and her family waged an all-out
war against him - after the get. Of course, the woman and agunah groups were
there to help. False allegations, denied visitations and all the other goodies
women and their advocates have turned into "proper" weapons of war.
“
This is my case! I gave Susan a get on her demand
2/17/1993. I pray that the NYS Court of
Appeals grants my Motion Number 2015-1219 return date November 9, 2015.
Boker veyoda H' is given as a cooling period. Comes along ORA and coaxes her with all kinds of derision of the husband feeding more fuel to the fire of which brings her to a point of no return. You could see by Tamar F how she is trying to sort things out as most others do, but then the Bnei avlo call in the anoshim shchorim umechuorim to derlang achzoriyesdige klep. ORA is an instigator like those when distraught R'L' in trying to commit suicide from high atop, and people gathering on the street coax him to "JUMP, JUMP" as if he is being a hero. You make a search in the Newspapers and you can find it. This org is RAK RA KOL HAYOM VEKOL HALAYLA. The fish stinks from the head, and when you live by the sword you die by the sword. The rosh habiryonim will be fried soon enough lemaan yishmeu along with his chevreman friends. And why is this Feminist organization only for women? What's good for the goose is good for the gander, ain't it?
ReplyDeleteTo the author of this Bobeh Maysse letter Nathan HoAzosi Alef and Nathan HoAzosi Beis. You are now an established Fake Fraud and a Fony! Tafsik kvar lezabel bamoach.
ReplyDelete*ומיד שנודע להאשה ממחלתו זו אמרה שלעולם לא תחזור לבעלה,
*דאף שלא נפרדה מבעלה תיכף כשנודע ממחלתו,
A) First letter indicates she was separated at the time, since this alleged heter was discovered after years of attempts to receive a Get.
B) Your second letter indicates she discovered "alleged Disodeh" while living yet together. You are guilty of fraud and no need for explanation. Adoni, bevakasha lech leAza.
Shmuel haNvi - Alef
Nathan of gaza • 4 days ago
Part of the hetter
והנה קיבלנו מסמכים ממומחה שטיפל בו שנתיים קודם חתונתם מטעם שהיה נוגע אז, ושם כתוב שבעל סובל מאי זה דיסארדער, והאשה לא ידעה כלום מזה, כי הבעל העלים זאת, וכל בעיותיה בשלום בית נבעה ממחלתו זאת, לפי דעת המומחים,
ומיד שנודע להאשה ממחלתו זו אמרה שלעולם לא תחזור לבעלה, כי יודעת שלמחלה זו אין שום רפואה ואין לה לקוות לשלום בית אתה, וכשנשאלו עשרה נשים יהודיות, היודעם בטיב המחלה אם היה נושאים בעל שיש לו דיסאדער זו, כולם אמרו בודאי שלא......
Shmuel haNavi - Beis
לכבוד הרב הגאון רבי נטע גרינבלאט שליט"א
אני מקבל סברתו בזה , דאף שלא נפרדה מבעלה תיכף כשנודע ממחלתו, אם יש רגלים לדבר שהסיבה היה שעדיין לא היה לה דירה מסודרת וכדומה, יש להאמינה בזה ולכן אין לומר דסברא וקבלה מכח זה
ואפשר להתירה מסברא זו, וטוב עשה כת"ר שעומד על על משמרתו, וזכה להתיר אומללה זו מכבלי עיגונותא
זנג
A divorce costs (some) money, including a new apartment, and a temporary hotel and or a friend's house.
ReplyDeleteShe decided to stay with him even though she knew about his 'disorder', instead of taking a hotel room immediately (per RMF) or other temporary arrangement.
She was relying pn her family, even using the family attorney for her divorce (the one who got federal immunity.)
She decided to stay In the house, not with him , big difference
ReplyDeleteShe told herself she will never return to him, even though she didn't physically leave yet,
ReplyDeleteRav Moshe says she must immediately leave the home upon discovery if there is to be any basis to even consider a claim of mekach taos.
ReplyDeleteAnd when was this that she found out about this disorder, before the klep or after the klep? Is there any date on those mismachim והנה קיבלנו מסמכים ממומחה שטיפל בו. "She didn't physically leave yet", were they living together as of then, before they got separated? Who is זנג
ReplyDeleteReb doniel, we are waiting and waiting, and waiting
ReplyDeleteAnd noone seems to have a problem with this psak
Time has come to retract and join the crowd
Correct. That's why the point made re. kesuba was not relevant.
ReplyDeleteSee my response to Honesty.
ReplyDeleteI merely commented on what you seemed to be saying that having received a Heter Mei'h Rabbanim, disqualifies a person from serving as a Rosh Yeshiva. You haven't provided any Torah source for such an assertion. You merely changed lanes, and started talking about him being a נבל ברשות התורה, which is a pretty serious charge to be making publicly against a rosh yeshiva. Sorry, I don't want to go there. I don't see any point in rehashing the details of R' Malkiel's "hetter me'ah". It's not important to anyone at this point, maybe except to you, who as of late have been exhibiting signs of being a bit unhinged whenever anything related to RAS is mentioned, בגדר משוגע לדבר אחד.
ReplyDeleteIn order to save the first sheker hetter letter, Nossen nute has to make up another sheker letter. Nossen said he now lives in BS. Oh yes, rofl BS big time. I have posed to him a few questions and waiting for answers, or should I. Who is "זנג"?
ReplyDeleteמכבלי עיגונותא
זנג
Nathan! With these letters you sound as if you are talking to yourself as in 'beini lebein atzmi'. Are you a Ventriloquist. Er, mmm... uh... hmm did i press you between a rock and a hard place. Do you have the dates of these two letters, names et al.
ReplyDeleteZalman nechemia goldberg I believe
ReplyDeleteShe in fact stayed around for 4 months after the therapist allegedly claimed that he was incurable and that she couldn't stand living with him.
ReplyDeleteIf he is to be considered impossible to live with - she would have to leave immediately otherwise it is assumed that she can deal with it and that destroys any justification for a heter of kiddushei ta'os
who is we? you obviously have little connections with knowledgeable rabbis.
ReplyDeleteNo point in retracting and living in a fantasy world like you do. I have no interest in joining your crowd - I have my own and they all agree that Tamar is committing adultery and there is no heter.
By the way we are still waiting for your documents
They are telling u Wht u wanna hear, they are to spineless to do anything else, loosers
ReplyDeleteWhat did the therapist allegedly claim he was incurable with?
ReplyDeleteHow dare u acuse Tamar of committing adultery, her rav told her she is allowed to get married, you are committing the crime of am eratses and stupidity
ReplyDeleteNot aware of a heter to commit adultery because her rav mistakenly told her it was permitted! All the poskim consulted so far all say she is still married to Aharon Friedman and she needs to separate from her new husband. They obviously have a different Shulchan Aruch than you do.
ReplyDeleteShe has a חזקת אשת איש. Until we know otherwise, we consider her to be an adulteress.
ReplyDeleteHer rav might be great guy, but he made a great mistake, and she's the victim.
The first rule in Judaism is not to be an idiot. If practically every rabbi who was approached, rejected her case for an annulment, then, excuse me, she's an idiot for relying on a flaky heter.
rav Lichtenstein (host of the radio program) spoke with rav G and he told him he did the "heter nisuin" the second one he ever did. its on the dropbox podcast.
ReplyDeleteThey are telling u Wht u wanna hear, they are to spineless to do anything else, loosers
ReplyDeleteMy, my. Calm down there dear Nathan. No need to throw a temper tantrum. You know, I understand that you have a chemical imbalance and a mental illness that has made you respond with upsetness and anger. I understand that your incurable mental illness is what is causing you to to keep the heter that you tell me you have to yourself and not share it with us, your loving adversaries. I understand that your mental illness is provable without a doubt from my side of the keyboard - even though I have never met you. Oh, and Rav Heinimen agrees with this diagnoses of you. He just does not want to get involved. Rav Zalman Nechmia Goldberg praised this diagnoses of you. The Gedolim all praise this diagnoses of you.
You have very little knowledge in this matter
ReplyDeleteWe have heard R"L plenty of heteirim of Grande rabbis baalei mekubolim of various heteirim for eishes ish, while at the same time they were mekayem mitzvo boi yoser mibeshlicho. This is reflecting the times of Moshiach. BTW, where are the goods? No answers either for the shaylos of baal peh. I think U R well done and good to go, chabibi.
ReplyDeleteWhy is she a victim? If her highness and family had not been twisting peoples hands into helping her get her way, in every way, then her rabbis themselves would have advised her to do the right thing. They are at fault for seeking to "help" her, regardless of right and wrong. She is at fault for not willing to do what is right and for her "need" to get her way.
ReplyDeleteIsn't he Mr. David David Lichtenstein, not rabbi? He's a a gvir and real estate mogul owning billions in Manhattan property. A talmid chochim he is also, and probably has smicha, but his day job is a businessman and he goes by the title Mister. When he is conducting a purchase or sale, the other parties don't call him rabbi.
ReplyDeleteI know more than you do about this matter
ReplyDeleteAt least I'm in the company of the early amoraim according to the ami
ReplyDeleteNathan, I like your name. Do you have a friend who uses the name Shabetai something?
ReplyDeleteWe aren't going to have a p...ing match, but you can ask our mutual friend whether I have have the documents I claim to have
ReplyDeleteI would agree that she is not considered an אנוס, as per the Teshuvas HaRashba, quoted in the Beis Yosef (EH, end of Siman 17).
ReplyDeleteHowever she is still a victim of her circumstances; especially due to the so-called rabbinic figures who encouraged her, and aided and abetted her in an adulterous remarriage.
Lol Eddie, u got it, I actually met him in turkey, we the learnt together in the diaspora yeshiva
ReplyDeleteThe reason I love RaP is that he has all these case studies in bending halacha. Not only that, but when i used to bring my own case studies, he criticised mine, perhaps because they were more creative than his!
ReplyDeleteLet's prepare for a mass protest outside the aguda convention, if we can pull together 500 benei Torah to protest in a positive manner, not atacking anyone, but bringing attention to the issue
ReplyDelete..and in the company of Aaron Friedman, according to your "world famous" poskim. Neat
ReplyDeleteDavid - I don't understand your insistence on degrading Chaim Walder's views.
ReplyDeleteHe is not a random opinion by someone who doesn't understand. His opinion carries much more weight amongst the people that I know
He has a solid record of understanding what goes on in our society and why. I would rate his views of more significance than that of a typical psychologist or sociologist or rabbi. And surely more than an unknown commentator on a blog
@Nathan of gaza
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that every letter n document u r megaleh tefach umchasse tfachayim vehaikar chosser min hasefer. Any shtar that doesn't have a date, signatures is not worth the paper it's written on. Granted, this blog is virtual and no paper wasted, but you are insulting our intelligence and wasting time and energy. You give no clue as to who said what to whom and when. The expression goes, if you talk and walk like BS, originate from BS, u r BS.
Veal kaze neemar: krayna deigarta lehevei prevanka
ReplyDeleteProbably because the ppl whom gave him these copies don't allow him to release everything, I happen to know a family member of the matirim is leaking stuff to the other side
ReplyDeleteNot manhattan, but lakewood and brookly (gowanus) that i know of. He' a rav in the context of giving a shiur on contemporary halachic topics and writing a sefer on the topic and getting guests on his radio program.
ReplyDeleteWhenhe'spracticing torah, hes rav. When he's practicing real estate, he's Mr.
Leaking? He is not a mashtin bakir? A partial leaker canot be a selective leaker. Tom, why do you think d ppl don't let him leak freely? Don't they mind that he is getting all wet in the process? Nimnu vegamru, there are no letters. It is a shame that Azosi put's such narishkeiten in zeng's mouth. If she didn't make a drastic move once she heard what she heard, she can never claim mekach to...s. Therefore my friend, these are cheap dvarim haporchim beavir ve'ein lahem raglayim. No further questions n I rest my case.
ReplyDeleteWas that in the chad gadya castle? But he later took up the Gazan koran.
ReplyDeleteשעומד על על משמרתו
ReplyDeleteSomebody needs speech therapy, hamichtav megumgam.
מכבלי עיגונותא ? Somebody also needs a spellcheck,
You can use a brushup on Aramaic
- עיגוניתא תנן
?זנג And you blame theese all to
...
She told herself she will never return to him, even though she didn't physically leave yet,
TF can also use some Grammar therapy.
it is I will never go on and continue with him. This is the classic example of mezuyaf mitocho umigabo
,,,?How about a new edition of Yerushalmi on Kodshim? Huh
Gazan style
An old client of mine (haven't seen him in fifteen years) told me he invested in that beachfront resort in gush katif. Can i assume he lost everything?
ReplyDeleteDon't have to be intimate.
ReplyDeleteA man and woman who share an apartment, without intimacy, require a get to marry (and i assume no cohanim.)
Just looked him up on wikipedia. Interesting. (Of course, he wrote it.) Manhattan, too.
ReplyDeleteI don't think there is such a concept of "Rav in torah matters, Mr in business". If someone is a Mister then anyone can call him Mister, not just his business partners and colleagues.
ReplyDeleteIf your plumber gives a shiur, you don't ask him after the shiur tno unclog using the title 'rav'.
ReplyDeleteAll master plumbers i know are real estate people, even that italian one i used to use in brooklyn.
RDE posted a psak from R elyasiv confirming.
ReplyDeleteAt most you are showing that it is good for society if the husband refuses to give a Get (as it would deter other woman from leaving their marriages), however, the husband shouldn’t be trying to save the world; he should be doing what is best for himself. After all, the husband is allowed to give the Get, he just doesn’t have to. So he might as well ask Bais Din to decide custody and money and give the Get, once it becomes obvious that she will not change her mind.
ReplyDeleteAnd if Bais Din paskens that the husband is not obligated to give a Get, they could also give him advice to have Rachmanus on himself and voluntarily give the Get and move on with his life. It just seems so comical, that Bais Din rules that no Get is required, and everyone knows that right afterwards the husband and wife are going home to separate houses and they will never live together.
If the wife realizes that her unjustified demand for a Get will not be granted and her only alternative would be to remain a self-made agunah living alone and getting old lonely, she'll come to the realization that her thought (as you put it) that “he is a nice guy, but just not for me” is a better arrangement to get back together with him and remain married to him than for her to remain a perpetual eishes ish without a husband. So it will be a win-win once she realizes this point and returns to her marriage with the nice guy husband and works on their shalom bayis together rather than her breaking the family, turning the kids into children from a broken family and turning herself into a permanently single woman.
ReplyDeleteIf you learned in Diaspora yeshiva why do you go by the name Nathan of Gaza ? Aren't you aware that by naming yourself after a Lost soul you may harming and undoing all the Torah learning you acquired in your sojourn thru Diaspora yeshiva?
ReplyDeleteBesides cant you see the irony of your new name and your Leftist views you so gallantly proclaim so energetically?
Besides if your goal is to seek out the truth wouldn't you be better served if you named yourself after a Tzadik , say Reb Yeshuah Leib Diskin a true Soldier for Hashem?
I think its the old Nathan of Gaza may have attached himself to you as a dybbuk Hey you may wish to have this checked out!