Prenups are documents a husband signs at his wedding, empowering the wife to leave the house at any time and force the husband to give her a GET. The husband, from the time that the wife leaves the house, must pay his wife a large sum of money regularly, a sum designed to overwhelm his ability to pay and to force him to give her a GET. The Modern Orthodox world is working hard to force every husband to sign a prenup. When that happens, may truly Orthodox people marry children born from Modern Orthodox women who got divorces because of prenups, or not? And what happens if Orthodox husbands sign a prenup and there is a GET? That is our discussion here.
The audio of the program is available at torahtimes.com. See also text of program on our blog at torahhalacha.blogspot.com. A short title for the problem is Problems with Prenups. We find fault with prenups from a clear Mishneh in Nedorim 90b, and reject the inference that Sefer Nachalas Shiva accepts prenups. The opposite if taught there, as we show.
ReplyDeleteNedarim 90b (Blackman digital and Soncino):
ReplyDelete“At first they [the
Sages] used to say [ruled], There are three women who must be divorced and yet
they take their marriage settlement [כתובות]: one who says , ' I am
unclean [defied טמאה] to you' or, 'Heaven is between me and you! [God knows that
you’re impotent] or, 'I am removed [by vow] from Jews [I vowed no sex with
anyone ever]!'
Then they retracted this
teaching so that a wife should not set her eyes upon another man and behave
immorally towards her husband [מקלקלת על בעלה];
But if she say, 'I am
unclean [defied טמאה] to you ! ' she must bring proof for her words; or, 'Heaven is
between me and you! [God knows that you’re impotent]' let them offer up prayers
[let them pray that she may rear children by her husband]; ''I am removed [by
vow] from Jews [I vowed no sex with anyone ever]'-he [her husband] should
nullify her vow as far as he personally is concerned so that she may continue
in marital relationship with him while
remaining removed from [other] Jews.”
So beautiful this Mishna! Our sages are so wise! Our Torah is so magnificent! Thank you Rabbi Dovid Eidensohn, God bless
you.
Gerald,
ReplyDeleteThanks so much for the wonderful words. Isn't it sad that the world is going in the other direction, as entire governments in states and Canada are now forcing Gittin upon demand? And is it not sad that outside of this blog, it is pretty quiet out there.
Again, thank you so much for speaking out.
Today, that is a courageous act!
Shalom,
Dovid
I’m thinking of the original ruling of the Sages, that the husband
ReplyDeletedivorce his wife and give her the כתובה money etc for 3
cases: the unfaithful wife, an impotent husband, a couple with no sex. Marriage is commitment. Yes, the marriage
can be broken up with an unfaithful wife, an impotent husband, and a marriage
without sex. The original ruling makes
sense.
The Sages wisely saw that women could easily contrive such
claims and thoroughly mess up the battered husband. Why would women do
that? Maybe for money or simple cruelty
or for power. This is King Solomon’s
warning Proverbs 6:25-26 “Do not lust for her beauty Or let her captivate you
with her eyes. The last loaf of bread will go for a harlot; A married woman
will snare a person of honor.”
Yes, the Sages ruled, clearly, no divorce on demand.
Reb Dovid, I am trying to get some clarity on the issue of valid or not kiddushin. The International BD run by R' Simcha Kraus, publishes an opinion that if there were no kosher witnesses, the marriage was not valid, and hence a Get is not required. This is to free the agunah, and avoid mamzeirim. I understand this is based on the shita of Rav Moshe ztl.
ReplyDeleteI also understand that Rav Henkin ztl opposed this leniency. I read that Rav Henkin did not openly attack RMF because of kavod for his Gadlus. So it is a machloket l'shem shamayim of the greatest Gedolei Torah of the last 50 years. Thus, it seems to me that this specific strategy of the Kraus BD is in line with RMF psak whether you agree with it or not.
Next, this was all l'mafreah, or bdieved. Can it be done l'chachila, basically deliberately not having witnesses ?
@Eddie - that is not the issue.The question is whether the method that they used to invalidate the witnesses is acceptable and the answer is no.
ReplyDeleteIf in fact it was agreed that there were no valid witnesses then the issue of of whether common-in-law marriages is valid becomes important.
Eddie,
ReplyDeleteI asked Reb Elyashev if I was beaten by a Beth Din to force me to give a GET and the Beth Din signed that it was a kosher GET, and I claimed I was beaten, how could I be believed against a Beth Din whose power is greater than two witnesses, according to Raviyo a major Rishon? The Rov replied that a Beth Din that does such things loses its chezkas Beth Din. I have written much about why this is true. But recently a book was published Mishpitei Yisroel where Gedolei HaDor negated all of these inventing Beth Dins as not have the status of a Beth Din and the things they do are not recognized. Therefore, the issue is who is the Beth Din, not whether or not somebody had witnesses. These Beth Dins are not recognized. We have always had them, and they are not respected, especially today.
I don't think i can join the tele- conference, will you publish a summary of the points?
ReplyDeleteUsually I post an audio of the conference on my website at torahtimes.com. The latest tel conf is usually on the top of the line of the windows, the first thing that you see when you go on the website, and it is clearly labelled.
ReplyDelete