A major issue is separating the desirability of the goal and the nature of the therapy used to achieve that goal.
Breitbart
Jury selection begins today in a trial that pits a $340 million left-wing group against a small Jewish non-profit. The result could be the closing of all counseling services in New Jersey that aim to help those with unwanted same-sex desires.
The Southern Poverty Law Center is using New Jersey’s strong Consumer Protection Act to sue a group called Jews Offering New Alternatives to Healing (JONAH) that refers men and women to psychological counselors working in the field known as “sexual orientation change efforts.”
SPLC claims JONAH defrauded four men by telling them their same-sex desires could be treated and they could become purely or largely heterosexual. The case is a blueprint for how SPLC intends to go after similar counseling services around the country. Indeed, SPLC and a group called Truth Wins Out, run by gay activist Wayne Besson, have spearheaded a legislative effort to outlaw counseling services to minors with unwanted same-sex attraction. They have been successful in California and New Jersey, which now outlaw the practice.
The case that will be heard over the next month in Superior Court for Hudson County, New Jersey, focuses on the claims of four men who voluntarily approached JONAH to help them with unwanted same-sex attraction. None of them self-identified as gay at the time and each wanted the attractions to end. JONAH, which works from what it calls “Torah values” referred the men to counselors who treated them.
SPLC is now claiming that JONAH made promises that do not comport with scientific findings about the permanence and changeability of homosexuality and that the treatment they underwent was odd. SPLC also claims that homosexual desires do not need to be “cured” and that it’s impossible anyway. All this adds up to consumer fraud, according to the suit that has been going on since 2012.
JONAH founder Arthur Goldberg and his colleagues, along with many noted psychiatrists, hold that same-sex desire is a result of stunted emotional growth and that this can be treated and overcome. They also see it as counter to the will of God and therefore something incumbent on religious believers to overcome. [...]
This will not get too many people aroused to do something. And things will continue getting worse and worse. The goal of these people is to destroy the biblical prohibition of homosexuality, which can be achieved by showing that the bible is inconsistent with American legal values. Some people are waking up, and some are not. But without a strong resistance, they will get their way and the time will come where our children will have to study about why homosexuality is fine. Already, people who refuse to use their wedding halls for homosexual marriage are being forced to open for them. And where will it end? They don't want it to end. And do we care enough to do something about it? That is the question.
ReplyDeleteThis article seems to ignore that people were damaged through the "well-meaning" efforts of this group, which is not too surprising, since the mainstream psycholgy profession is clearly opposed such "conversion treatment", among others because of the risk of suicidality it involves.
ReplyDeleteTherefore, it is justified to accept that it is a professional fault by a psychologist to propose such treatments.
@freya - good point which is discussed here
ReplyDeletehttp://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/06/when-your-therapist-is-a-quack/394886/
As if regular therapy hasn't caused incalculable harm to many people. A tiny effort to help people control their forbidden urges is being stomped on and vilified. Hashem Yerachem.
ReplyDeleteThe JONAH group may have erred in taking in an unqualified psychologist but the main purpose of the splc attack is to advance their Leftist agenda of licentiousness and further more lgbt corruption. Their false claims about homosexuality being biologically forced without any choice by the gay person is unproven and widely spread claptrap. Rabbi Avigdor Miller says that everyone has urges including those of this kind and must control them and can control them.
ReplyDeleteJonah should remain active with a better psychological staff.
1. Critics claimed that Jonah's methods are successful 20% of the time. Plenty of doctors (and plenty of patients) will run to a prescription medication that has only a 20_% success rate. Even with "harmful" side effects.
ReplyDelete2. The reason the left opposes this method is because their preferred therapy is a series of opposite sex experiences (frankly can't argue with that methodology, but that is not our way.)
The SPLC (Sicko Perverted Leftist Cretins) attempt to ruthlessly crush any opposition to the perverted homo-fascist agenda using bogus, contrived arguments about "consumer fraud" against a Jewish non-profit organization.
ReplyDeleteTo its great credit, a non-Jewish legal defense organization http://www.consciencedefense.org/ is defending the constitutional rights of JONAH against the militant homo-fascists. May Hashem bless them for their efforts on behalf of religious heterosexuals.
Where are the establishment Orthodox organizations like the allegedly Chareidi Agudah while a Jewish non-profit is being crushed under homo-fascist jackboots? Will the Agudah and other so-called "Orthodox" organizations twiddle their thumbs and ingratiate themselves with the ruling homos in NYC while the homo-fascists crush any free speech Constitutional rights for religious heterosexuals?
..... Since the mainstream psycholgy profession clearly rejects such
ReplyDelete"conversion treatment", among others because of the risk of suicidality (sic)
it involves.
@freya: You are quite correct about the mainstream psychology profession rejecting 'reparative therapy.' Medical, scientific, and government organizations in the United States and Britain have expressed concern over conversion therapy and consider it potentially harmful. In 2001 Surgeon General David Satcher stated. "There is no valid scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed." The American Psychiatric Association opposes "Any psychiatric treatment, such as 'reparative' or conversion
therapy, which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that a patient should change his/her sexual homosexual orientation." Of course, none of these authoritative facts are ever reported in Breitbart.
@Rabbi Eidensohn: Breitbart? That paragon of journalistic integrity? I see we're
throwing red meat out to the 'Left Wing' haters (as evidenced by so many
of the posts on this thread). Feeding time at the zoo!
Far be it from me to ever tell anyone how to run their blog, but citing Breitbart on almost anything is a פסיק רישיה to reducing what could be a very valid discussion into a pathetic political brouhaha against what is referred to as the Left Wing (read: those who think). There are valid scientific and medical concerns (facts) against 'reparative therapy,' and no amount of political maneuvering and spinning will ever alter that.
The above item reports, "JONAH founder Arthur Goldberg and his colleagues, along with many noted psychiatrists, hold that same-sex desire is a result of stunted emotional growth....." Who are these mysterious, anonymous, unnamed colleagues and noted psychiatrists?
Being relatively new to this blog, the above article from that Breitbart tabloid, which is anything but true objective journalism, took me quite by surprise.
The unfortunate truth is that the battle to keep homosexuality labeled a deviancy and homosexual sex an abomination has already been lost. They sick left of the Western societies have moved onto the next front, which is the acceptance of transgenders as normal members of society and the lauding of their "courage." If Bruce Jenner was Jewish, we would have had to make him a kiddush.
ReplyDelete@bewhiskered - I didn't know I had a "true believer" reading my blog. You really accept as proven scientific fact all statements made by the APA?
ReplyDeleteYou accept all statements made by the NYTimes as being absolute truth?! or is it only if they come from the Huffington Post.
You might have noticed that sometimes I quote from a number of opposing sources.in order to get a more proper understanding of the issue. Sometimes I cite a mainstream source - which leaves out important details such as the story about the Duggars and either I or your fellow readers fill in the important details.
You really think that anyone considered leftwing by Breitbart proves that they must be genuine thinkers?! what a thought!
Perhaps you should calm down a bit and don't respond in a reflexive stereotypical manner if you want your fellow readers to assume you are a thinking person.
yes I am aware of the evidence against JONAH - and I am aware of the lack of evidence for a lot of what psychotherapist do in general as well as the wide spread use of non evidence based medical treatment.
The basis of the lawsuit against JONAH could easily be used against psychotherapy or the medical field or the educational field.
You really accept as proven scientific fact all statements made by the APA?You really think that anyone considered leftwing by Breitbart proves that they must be genuine thinkers?
ReplyDeleteAll I can say is that any news source that does not provide true journalistic objectivity by listing ALL opinions about any matter is not written for a thinking public.
Perhaps you should calm down a bit and don't respond in a reflexive
stereotypical manner if you want your fellow readers to assume you are a
thinking person.
Rabbi Eidensohn, much thanks for accusing me of 'responding in a reflexive
stereotypical manner.' I shall remember that. It would appear that your kind of 'thinking people' give credence to media sources that have their own agendas and do not provide their readers with ALL pertinent information about a subject.
Unlike you, I am not qualified to have an accurate opinion on any of this. But, look at some of the insane remarks and the paranoid implausible conspiracy theories generated by Breitbart:
"The SPLC (Sicko Perverted Leftist Cretins) attempt to ruthlessly crush
any opposition to the perverted homo-fascist agenda using bogus....."
"Will the Agudah and other so-called "Orthodox" organizations twiddle
their thumbs and ingratiate themselves with the ruling homos in NYC....."
"The goal of these people is to destroy the biblical prohibition of
homosexuality, which can be achieved by showing that the bible is
inconsistent with American legal values."
Are these your 'thinking people,' Rabbi Eidensohn? They sound a lot more afraid than intellectual, if you ask me.
"Left Wing (read: those who think)" Ahh! Now it all makes sense! The fascist non-thinkers on this blog need to show a lot more respect to deep intellectual leftist "thinkers" (such as yourself) who teach that the Universe created itself, man evolved from an ape, homosexuals are well balanced & normal people, only "bigots" oppose toeivah (gay abomination) rights, gay "marriage" is a civil right, enforcing immigration laws is racism, criticizing Islam is racism, murderous black rioters are actually protesting white racism, domestic violence is only committed by men and never by women, Torah law grants all Jewish women divorce on demand, etc. Did my fantasy dominated rightist brain cause me to miss any of the intellectual leftwing causes?
ReplyDeleteThe fascist non-thinkers on this blog need to show a lot more respect todeep intellectual leftist "thinkers" (presumably including yourself) who teach that the Universe created itself, man evolved from an ape,
ReplyDeletehomosexuals are well balanced & normal people, only "bigots" oppose toeivah (gay abomination) rights, gay "marriage" is a civil right,.....
You know Rabbi Eidensohn, it's a good thing that I'm the only one here who 'responds in a reflexive stereotypical manner.'
Do you see the mindless hatred and mean spirited fulminations that emit from one of 'your thinkers' when you throw them the red meat of intolerance? But, it's your blog and your business.
@bewhiskered - actually what I wrote was the opposite of your understanding. You have been a carefully reasoned commentator - the present comment seemed to be out of character which is why I said: "don't respond in a reflexive stereotypical manner"
ReplyDelete@bewhiskered wrote: "All I can say is that any news source that does not provide true journalistic objectivity by listing ALL opinions about any matter is not written for a thinking public.
ReplyDeleteThis is a standard which is often not used - even by the New York Times.
"This is a standard which is often not used- even by the New York Times."
ReplyDeleteThat may be true, but when it comes to Breitbart and the NY Times it's still אינו דומה.
Well, first a bris, then a kiddush.
ReplyDelete"Do you see the mindless hatred" - Yes I do see the mindless hatred and mean spirited-ness in the well organized homo-fascist movement that attempts to silence and destroy a small Jewish religious organization (JONAH) for simply exercising their First Amendment rights of free exercise of religion by assisting their fellow Jews to escape from the homosexual death-style.
ReplyDelete(The video below is on a non-Jewish website. I'm not endorsing any non-Jewish religious material on that site.)
"Undercover Investigation: ‘Gays’ Admit they weren’t ‘Born That Way’"
http://barbwire.com/2015/04/28/undercover-investigation-gays-admit-they-werent-born-that-way/
nice!
ReplyDeleteI once spoke to senior Agudah Rosh Yeshivas about that. But better not say anymore.
ReplyDeleteAs long as the politicians give agudah askanim their government grants, they will put up with these gay rights claims.
ReplyDeleteFrom AP:
ReplyDeleteGoldberg also acknowledged that the American Psychotherapy Association
revoked two certifications it granted him because on his applications he
failed to mention that he had been convicted of fraud and conspiracy
years ago and spent time in prison.
So, the head of this prominent organization that claims it can redefine gender preference in individuals was convicted of fraud and conspiracy, and did time. Is there anyone out there who can have any scintilla of נאמנות in such a person and his organization? Would you buy a used car from Goldberg?
The real question is: "Is there any minimally Torah observant Jew out there who can have any scintilla of נאמנות in a pro-toeivah, anti-Torah leftist (such as yourself) who cites the American Psychiatric Association as opposing psychiatric treatment based upon the assumption the patient should change his/her sexual homosexual orientation".
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't seem to concern you in the least that the APS's position is radically contrary to Torah Judaism which pronounces male homosexuality as a prohibited abomination. So in your case, no matter how long your beard is, no matter how many frumie Hebrew words you sling around, your pro-toeivah leftist ideology is morally bankrupt by any authentic Torah standards.
"So, in your case, no matter how long your beard is, no matter how many frumie Hebrew words you sling around, your pro-toeivah leftist ideology is morally bankrupt by any authentic Torah standards."
ReplyDeleteYes, as with the usual vulgar fulminations of an ill tempered reprobate such as yourself, your parents managed to raise a mean spirited and spiteful sub-humanoid who has no sense whatsoever of common decency.
You know nothing of me except that I have no faith in those who have been found guilty of crimes and sent to prison. And for this, you attack me in the most deplorable, low life, and vile manner.
You obviously like to mention the term תועבה because your attitude to another person of whom you know nothing is the greatest תועבה.
your parents managed to raise an ill tempered, mean spirited reprobate whose vile and disgusting mannerisms know no shame whatsoever
ReplyDeleteHe attacks your ideology, your ideas; you attack him personally. Neat, but wrong. Very wrong.
Please stop your dissimulation already and explain your honest views on homosexuality and "gay rights".
ReplyDeleteYou made earlier comments about "intolerance" and "haters". Do you or do you not consider those who oppose homosexuality (as an abomination) and those who oppose "gay rights" to be intolerant haters?
wow!
ReplyDeletewhen is the Taanis?
Please stop your dissimulation already and explain your honest views on homosexuality and "gay rights".
ReplyDeleteJust as you are חושד me, I am חושד you for entirely different reasons, which I will be more than pleased to extrapolate upon at the end of this post. For those with less competence, let me spell it out as clearly as possible.
1. The תוה"ק considers the מעשה of משכב זכר as a תועבה:
ואיש אשר ישכב את זכר משכבי אשה תועבה עשו שניהם מות יומתו דמיהם בם
No true ירא שמים may contest this. But, the actual תועבה refers to the מעשה of משכב זכר and not to the חוטאים, as can be clearly seen from the following words תועבה עשו שניהם and certainly not שניהם תועבה. as those of your hateful ilk wish to re-write it.
2. These אומללים (who are also חוטאים) whom you hate so much are caught in the inordinately difficult web of what Dr. Freud referred to as ‘inversion’ (homosexuality). Your twisted and vicious שנאה however, dictates that one morning while looking into a mirror someone makes the unnatural conscious choice to become gay or lesbian. And so, you very lamely justify this blind שנאה you have for them.
3. I am certainly not qualified to discuss this issue from a medical, psychological, or psychiatric perspectives, but why do some prefer blonds of the other gender, while some prefer brunettes, and yet others red heads, and so on and so forth? Why do members of one gender find this attractive or this not attractive in the other gender? Are these actually conscious choices as you would put forward? Is it not possible that there are those of the אומללים who never made a conscious choice but suffer from being ‘hard wired’? But of course, such a rational thought would destroy your blind and feral שנאה which you must have for someone.
4. חרדים who are convicted of crimes and sit in prison create nothing less than a foul חילול שם שמים ברבים, and should never again be trusted. Instead of making himself ילך למקום שאין מכירין אותו וילבש שחורים, Goldberg, who lacks any degree of בושה, makes himself the head of a very questionable public organization. Incidentally, it is not surprising to me why you commiserate with that jailbird Goldberg (as previously discussed).
5. As promised earlier, allow me to be מחשיד you. Aside from referring to every one of the עריות as a תועבה, the תור"ה refers to other אסורים as a תועבה:
לא יהיה לך בביתך איפה ואיפה גדולה וקטנה אבן שלמה וצדק יהיה לך איפה שלמה וצדק יהיה לך למען יאריכו ימיך על האדמה אשר יהוה אלהיך נתן לך כי תועבת השם א-לקיך כל עשה אלה כל עשה עול
But, when it come to this תועבה of dishonesty, as committed by your pal Goldberg, no one hears a peep out of your bunch, do they? You most viciously despise and blindly hate the תועבה violators of משכב זכר, but honor and make possible for the תועבה violators of כל עשה עול to sit at the מזרח וואַנט. With the likes of you, it is not a matter of gender preference, but rather תועבה preference. You have a Smorgasbord תורה , whereby you take what you like, and leave what you don’t. And, you are sufficiently blind to any of this duplicity, aren’t you?
"The goal of these people is to destroy the biblical prohibition of homosexuality."
ReplyDeleteThere is no prohibition, biblical or otherwise, against homosexuality. There is a biblical prohibition against male homosexual intercourse, and there are various lower-level prohibitions against other same-sex physical relationships. This is an essential distinction: JONAH is not trying to get homosexual to "control their urges," as suggested in the name of R' Avigdor Miller, but to change their underlying orientation.
And before you defend them, read a bit about their practices, it is quite harrowing. This is not therapy in the sense of sitting on a couch and talking.
There is no prohibition, biblical or otherwise, against homosexuality.
ReplyDeleteברוך השם יום יום. There is actually another thinking participant on this thread, who stands out from the typical blind, fuming, paranoid שנאת חנם of others here. Your post reassures me that somewhere among the היימישער עולם there are those capable of rational reasoning. יישר כחך.
Well, a good Shabbos to you as well.
ReplyDeleteמשכב זכר isn't merely a "תועבה", it is an act that results in the sodmomite being executed. As in put to death. With being thrown off a building and then stoned with big rocks by members of the general public. That is what is. So lets's not be disingenuous by comparing it to lesser toeivas. משכב זכר is.
ReplyDeleteNo need to split hairs. When referring to "the biblical prohibition of homosexuality" it is clear a Torah Jew is referring to male homosexual intercourse. Even if linguistically it can include lesbians.
ReplyDeleteThese people are not from the "היימישער עולם", A good percent of the commenters are not frum, ex-frum. Another good percent, probably even more than the minority of chareidi posters here, are modern or very modern orthodox.
ReplyDeleteIt won't be long before orthodox shuls will have to declare their support for homosexual marriage in order to be considered non-profit.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree and have been saying this for over 10 years. Like I said in an earlier post, orthodox shuls in the US will be forced to support homosexual marriage, etc, within a short period of time.
ReplyDeleteWhat about the oral law? What does it say? Often there are broad statements in the 5 books of Moses that are expanded upon in the oral law, like tefillin for example.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I know, there is no statement in the oral law that relates to any prohibition of the condition of being a homosexual, i.,e., having sexual attraction to those of the same sex.
ReplyDeleteIn Bewhiskered's perverse, leftist mindset, anyone who opposes the super-sick homosexual agenda must be a fuming, paranoid, intolerant hater.
ReplyDeleteIn truth no one who justifies, condones or supports the fascist "gay rights" movement and its attempts to crush the rights of religious Bible observant heterosexuals, can be considered a Torah observant Jew.
So lets's not be disingenuous by comparing it to lesser תועבהs.
ReplyDeleteBut, of course, you fail to comprehend my entire point, don't you? Unlike you, I am not sufficiently presumptuous to say which תועבה is worse than another. True, one is דיני נפשות and the other is דיני ממונות. But, so what? You are not the דיין אמת to make any distinctions on this matter, and a תועבה is a תועבה.
But, I'll tell you what is really interesting. There seems, at least on this thread, to be a very evident relationship between those who virulently despise such אומללים who are ensnared and entangled in the impossible calamity of homosexuality, while simultaneously defending the actions of those who commit כל עושה עול. In reality, I have no idea what this means. Yet, one thing is c
So lets's not be disingenuous by comparing it to lesser תועבהs.
ReplyDeleteBut, of course, you fail to comprehend my entire point, don't you? Unlike you, I am not sufficiently presumptuous to say which תועבה is worse than another. True, one is דיני נפשות and the other is דיני ממונות. But, so what? You are not the דיין אמת to make any distinctions on this matter, and a תועבה is a תועבה.
It is interesting that those of your חברה constantly hastily surge to defend those who commit כל עושה עול, which בזמננו, so many have NO problem with (please excuse prepositional ending). And, since you apparently are an Internet user, you know that you can't swing a dead cat around by its tail in the so called חרידי עולם without hitting a violator of כל עושה עול.
Some people are "hard wired" and attracted to married women. Therefore? We should talk nicely of those whose "orientation" is for adultery?
Please excuse me for laughing, but my very venerable uncle would say the following of you:
ער איז נישט א גרויסער חכם און נישט א קליינער נער
What kind of desperate, pathetic, pitiful, lamentable, and worthless argument is that? What you are simply incapable of understanding is that those who have the יצר הרע for ניאוף can still have a somewhat fulfilling sex life at home with their wives, which the אומללים of whom I speak have no fulfillment of that nature which is מותר. But, of course, you haven't given this much thought, have you? After all, who needs a brain when we have our שנאה?
Post Script: Allow me to suggest that in the future, you not make your thinking public.
These people are not from the "היימישער עולם", A good percent of the
ReplyDeletecommenters are not frum, ex-frum. Another good percent, probably even
more than the minority of chareidi posters here, are modern or very
modern orthodox.
And, from where do you know these percentages? Can you please supply the source for this, or, are you simply talking out of the top of your head again?
As far as the so-called "שנאת חנם" you refer to, the
Chofetz Chaim stated that it is mitzvah to mock apikorsum.
So, let me get this straight. You are saying that those who commit the תועבה of משכב זכר are אפיקורסים, while those who commit the תועבה of כל עושה עול are not? I'll bet you can't supply a מקור for this insanity from ש"ס ופוסקים, can you? Do me a favor David, don't bother addressing me again.
Your attempt at moral relativism of comparing the toeiva of mishkav zochor to other Toshiba's completely fails. Mishkav zochor is a crime that carries a penalty of chayiv misa whereas the other toeivas do not.
ReplyDeleteOne is chayiv misa whereas the other is not. That easily tells us which is far worse.
ReplyDeleteWhat about unmarried men who have an "orientation" (the new age word for taaiva) for eishes ish? They have no wife to fulfil their desires, so your argument will be to understand their need as your argue for the homos.
ReplyDeleteIn any event, it is clear one toeiva is worse than another toeiva when the penalty for one is death while the penalty for the other is a fine or something else.
@Moe Ginsburg - agree 100% with your comment.
ReplyDeleteHere are links to previous posts regarding Rav Moshe Feinstein's views on the subject
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2009/03/nullifying-marriage-with-homosexual.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2009/03/homosexuality-view-of-rav-moshe.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2014/04/orthodox-celibate-gay-and-thats-ok.html
Also note Rashi's view
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2009/03/homosexualtiy-and-amalek.html
What about unmarried men who have an "orientation" (the new age word for
ReplyDeletetaaiva) for eishes ish? They have no wife to fulfil their desires, so
your argument will be to understand their need as your argue for the
homos.
"As I argue for homos?" I see we have yet another sophisticate here. I know nothing of this 'orientation' specifically for an אשת איש, and neither do you. All I know is that prior to marriage, there is a tremendous יצר הרע for the opposite gender. But, eventually with the מצוה of marriage that יצר הרע can be successfully fought against. We call it פת בסלו. The אומללים of whom I speak, have no outlet that is מותר. Even though I have made this statement prior, your extreme שנאה dominates your thinking as it does so many of your bunch.
In any event, it is clear one toeiva is worse than another toeiva when
the penalty for one is death while the penalty for the other is a fine
or something else.
I have already acknowledged this, even though you didn't bother reading it. So what? Who cares? My only statement from the beginning was that just as משכב זכר is a תועבה, so too is כל עושה עול, which tends to set people like you, who rush to the defense of גזלנים, off on wild ramblings.
To me, this is not a contest of which תועבה outwieghs which other תועבה, as it is with you. The תורה"ק must be FULLY accomplished, without judging which עבירה is worse.
So, go right ahead and defend your violators of כל עושה עול, which is not surprising coming from the likes of you.
Your attempt at moral relativism of comparing the toeiva of mishkav zochor to other toeivas completely fails.
ReplyDeleteAnd, here we have our sophisticate again! The ONLY comparison that I have ever made is that both משכב זכר and כל עושה עול are each considered a תועבה by the תורה"ק, and this דור תהפוכות is riddled through with גניבה וגזילה. These are facts- not personal opinions. And, along comes your bunch making their best (but lame) effort to downplay כל עושה עול as being not such a bad תועבה. There is nothing surprising about any of this coming from the חברה assembled here. Since you persist in misinterpreting my posts (without even reading them), we have nothing more to discuss.
@Moe Ginsburg - agree 100% with your comment.
ReplyDeleteLet me try this one more time. It is not surprising that you, Rabbi Eidensohn, join the rest of the herd here to hold with their opinions. After all, no one should ever accuse you of taking the 'wrong' side.
1. My original statement was that both משכב זכר and כל עושה עול are each considered a תועבה. Do we agree on that?
2. I have NEVER made the comparison of which of these תועבות is worse, as you and the rest of this bunch rush to do- NEVER! I dare you to find in any of my posts where I have ever made such a presumptuous statement.
3. And finally, allow me to tell you something about some of the reprobates on this blog with whom you agree. In a previous post I wrote, "No true ירא שמים may support ‘gay rights’ because such איסורים are an integral part of the שבע מצות בני נח."
But, one of your שקרנים, with whom you fully side, writes concerning me, "In truth no one who justifies, condones or supports the fascist "gay
rights" movement and its attempts to crush the rights of religious Bible observant heterosexuals, can be considered a Torah observant Jew."
Not only is this reprobate a שקרן גמור who is מוציא שם רע on others, he is someone who is so desperate in his pathetic arguments that he resorts to flagrantly lying, while considering himself a שומר מצוות. And, you condone every false word he utters without any מוחאה whatsoever.
My original thought was that you, as a תלמיד חכם and psychologist, would have the ability (not to mention the aspiration) to discern between what is true and what is not, regardless of what is fashionable for the rest of the המון עם. That regrettably, is not so.
Now, please be so kind as to tell me with which of the three points above that I have made, do you disagree?
Because you and the rest of this חברה wish to misrepresent me in any way you can, I shall relieve you of my person on this blog. But, remember this, regardless of how many secular degrees you may hold, enabling flagrant שקרנים is כנגד כל התורה כולה. Or, shall we argue that point as well?
@bewiskered - sigh.
ReplyDeleteI specifically agreed with Moe Ginsburgs comment - you have no justification to extend my agreement to all comments that everyone makes on this blog. As most readers of this blog are aware - I generally approve comments . Even those I strongly disagree with.
So please stop playing the martyr against the savage ignorant mob.
You have made some very important points - don't ruin it with ad hominem arguments (even if some of the other commenters use such an approach on you.)
If you read Rav Moshe's comments you will see he does not agree with you. So instead of criticize me for my learning - both Torah and secular - please take the trouble to read Rav Moshe's teshuvos.
If you want to then say that you disagree with Rav Moshe then we have what to talk about.
The only unsurprising part of this conversation, if that's what this can be called, is your consistent and unbending defense of homosexual sex. And your perverted attempts to fit such a defense into a Torah framework that denounces in no uncertain term (i.e. with a penalty of being stoned to death) of such an abominable "lifestyle". Don't waste anyone's time with your laughable attempt to portray this as being about those with a so-called "orientation" for homosexuality. This is about men who actually engage in homosexual sex, otherwise called sodomy.
ReplyDeleteThere are plentiful of men today, as there always has been throughout history, who either married late (for the first time) when they were in their upper 30s, 40s, and their even 50s or older, as well as men for one reason or another never found someone to marry, couldn't marry or for whatever reason never did marry. That fact, in no way shape or form as your arguments here would imply, would give him license to engage in illicit sex, whether any form of homosexual sex or any illicit heterosexual sex, which in the case of an unmarried man would constitute any sex at all.