Five Towns Jewish Times It was a bizarre exchange last Monday between Israel’s new finance
minister, Yair Lapid, and Moshe Gafni, Member of Knesset for the Degel
HaTorah party, who is now in the opposition. Gafni attacked Lapid for
posting on Facebook on Shabbos. Lapid responded, “I’m entitled to send
messages on Shabbat. I do not keep Shabbat. I don’t tell you what to do
on Shabbat, you don’t tell me what to do on Shabbat. I don’t ask you,
what does this say? I am entitled to post on Facebook whenever I want.”
(The exchange can be found 17 minutes at
youtube).
Seemingly, Moshe Gafni wished to score some political points with his
constituency by pointing out that Lapid had posted on Facebook on
Shabbos. In a sense, Gafni may be benefiting from Lapid’s Facebook post
on Shabbos. The question is whether what MK Gafni did is halachically
permitted. He must have seen the Lapid post in order to use it against
him. Does this constitute benefiting from the by-product of a Shabbos
violation—something called “maaseh Shabbos”?
To answer this question, we will begin with a general overview of
maaseh Shabbos and then apply it specifically to the case of Gafni and
Lapid.
The term “maaseh Shabbos” is, unfortunately, not one that is well
known in Torah-observant circles, but it is a concept with enormous
halachic ramifications. Literally, it means the by-products of Shabbos
violation. If someone had, chas v’shalom, violated Shabbos by cooking,
sewing, carrying, or planting, what is the halachic status of the
product of his Shabbos violation? May it be used by him? What about by
others? Does it make a difference if he actually did it for the others
as well? If so, is it forever forbidden to them? [...]
Charadei Israeli style of partisan attacks and defense of Shabbos has a high price in causing hatred and alienating secular Israelis. But the leadership there has decided to pay that price. What are it's benefits? We Americaiym may not relate to the benefits, but secular Israelis may get something from it. By the situation they are in and their temperment (I lived there 12 years) - Israelis seem like fighters and like partisans. I often wonder if they take seriously values that others are willing to fight for - and only those values that people are willing to fight for. I long ago stopped trying to figure out Israeli psychology. Time will tell. In the meantime, we Americayim should have a bit of humility on this matter. It is quite possible that the friendly outreach in Israel that is successful is made successful in part by the hard line that others take. Or not... but do you really know one way or the other?
ReplyDeletethis sort of bickering has started ever since that shameful, sensationalist party Yesh Atid hit the scene - what a bunch of jokers.
ReplyDeleteyes you're right. lapid isn't willing to cowtow to UTJ and the latter's political techniques consists of screaming gevalt.
Deleteone other point: nothing lapid has said comes close to the horrible things that MK eichler spouts.
DeleteA- I dont know if electricity is a d'oreisa and even it were, the hanoeh is so indirect that it doesnt seem plausible.
ReplyDeleteB - Bothering lapid who is a michallel shabbos about facebooking on Shabbos has no benefit other than well just that bothering lapid. This is exactly what his party stands for - getting rid the disunity and immature politics.
hence , the real aveirah committed is the chillul Hashem that we see way too often
From the perspective of an am ha-aretz, it seems a long stretch to consider any "brownie points" Gafni may have earned among his constituency by pointing out Lapid's Shabbat violation (as if anyone thought Lapid was shomer Shabbat!) as a "benefit" derived from Lapid's aveirah. Naively, I would suppose that the obligation to rebuke one who violates the Torah excuses any incidental benefit in terms of heightened public standing that the rebuker might obtain by it, but I'm open to instruction.
ReplyDeleteas someone pointed out on another blog, if gafni (and UTJ) is so concerned about chillul shabbat, they should have been working to push off the lag b'omer ceremonies.
Deletesince next year lag b'omer falls on motz"ash, they should start working now to push off the ceremony.
The aguda is ignoring the massive hillel shabas in jerusalem the last 3 years in order to get huge funding... Hypocrits...
ReplyDeleteNevertheless, by our protesting we take off the kitrug from the jewish people. As rav moshe streenbuch allways says, our protesting is not conditional on the רשעים listening.
ReplyDeleteRav Shach and R Dessler forbade secular studies, and academic professions. r Shach also placed R JB Soloveitchik in cherem, for his blending of Kodesh and Chol.
ReplyDeleteThus, by the same reasoning, benefiting from a) money earned by professionals, and b) services, eg medical should also be forbidden in the same communities.
We are talking about politics here. I have always said that a frum Yid going into politics is like jumping into the mud to save someone from drowning. You may or may not be successful, but you will certainly get dirty.
ReplyDeleteIs there benefit to screaming at Lapid? Let's say that as a result Gafni would gain an extra 4 years in the Knesset. Is that a gain or a loss for him? Take your pick.
One point if you really want to discuss this, since there is no direct representation, and since theoretically the UTJ list is decided on solely by Daas Torah, does Gafni personally have any benefit from his protest? I don't think so.
My question is since UTJ party is run, decided upon and guided by Daas Torah (as they profess).....are the G'dolim behind the yelling, screaming, lashing out, sarcasm, and is it mandated and encouraged by the Rabbinic Council?
ReplyDeleteIts amazing to me how the liberal orthodox are falling all over themselves to praise and defend lapid. Just because he takes the popular "equal burden" stance against charedim. It suggest to me that there has been a lot of pent up resentment against haredim and he is serving a the outlet for liberal orthodox such as Rabbi Hoffman types and their followers, not just an outlet for secularists. I as a religious zionist leaning Jew resent lapid, and I hope he does not damage the charedim with the instantaneous changes he is trying to force in order to make himself popular and catapult himself as next prime minister. I also hope the liberal orthodox types will open their eyes and wake up before it's too late.
ReplyDeleteit isn't only the "liberal orthodox crowd". rav melamed, rav lior, rav druckman are more or less on board with much of bennet's program, including his cooperation with lapid. yes they have specific points with which they disagree with him about the current governments policies. but b'gadol they aren't slamming bennet. so you comment about liberal orthos is simply wrong.
DeleteI am not interested in what Rabbi Druckman says, but that's besides the point.
DeleteMore to the point, the fact that they support Bennett does not mean they support Lapid! Equating the two doesn't make sense. Since when does cooperating with someone, or joining a government coalition with someone, mean that you are on board with his policies and program? If that was true, then all those times that UTJ joined the government, they were on board with a secular Jewish state being run as a secular state, as is policy of likud and labor? They were on board with soccer matches on Shabbat? etc. No. They made it clear they were against those things.
I am talking about the naive/delusional effusive praise of Lapid's character, as well as the parroting of his political propaganda such as "This is exactly what his party stands for - getting rid the disunity and immature politics. " - like we saw in this very comment thread. I mean come on, does that person believe in santa clause too? Oh, yes, his purpose in life is to get rid of disunity. It's not to gain political power like every other politician. Only someone obsessed with sticking it to charedim could possibly convince themselves of something so ridiculous.
Finally, it may even be true - but show me evidence of it, don't just equate Bennett and Lapid - that certain religious zionist leaders also have this resentment and vent it thru Lapid like the liberal ortho's and the secularists are doing. So what? If that's true, that makes it ok because I happen to be religioux zionist? I wasn't posting a criticism of liberal orthodox as a sector or any other sector, I was criticizing an attitude that I am observing. A negative attitude. I'm not one of these people who tout their group and "score points" over others in the comments section. That's very immature and pointless. I am just pointing out what I am observing which is negative, no matter who is doing it, and an insult to our intelligence some of the ridiculous things said about Lapid turning him into a knight on a white horse. But you seem to think it's ok.
i am really not sure what your point is and it doesn't matter. my very simple point is that there is a lot of bad blood between the chareidim and the DLs. the bad blood, the anger, the resentment is based on years of each side hurting the other. there is no side here that is all good or all bad. i disagree top to bottom with the velt world view but i don't deny their right to try and carry out politics within the rule books.
Deletehaving said that, i also don't get upset when someone, be it lapid or rav dahan or rav druckman tells the chareidi political parties that they can jump in the lake (or whatever cute expression one finds appropriate). lapid in particular has no need to apologize to the frum MKs if he uses facebook on shabbat. yes i know that in the past cabinet ministers made a practice of not violating shabbat openly. however those days are past and more importantly, within much of the DL world (including the chardal world, not just the liberal modern orthodox) there is an understanding that screaming "GEVALT" is pointless and even damaging. screaming gevalt is cute when chareidim do it at demonstrations (it is one of the least offensive things yelled) but it is not something done outside of meah sharim or RBS Bet.
lastly, i've said it before and i'll say it again. nothing that lapid has said is as bad as stuff that MK eichler (and other MKs) vomits out. maybe one can get a bit apologetic saying that is eichler, that's just the way he talks, he gets caught up in the heat of the moment. however chayim valder sat down and cooly and calmly wrote his disgusting article, which was than approved by the yated rabbanim. i have yet to see rav sternbauch's clarification of what he supposedly said. and there are plenty more examples of this stuff.
so the chareidi world can suck it up. they (and you) don't like how people talk to them, than the first thing they can do is appoint spokesmen who talk like dan meridor.
Oh, and for those taking Lapid the knight in shining armor at his word, remember when he was monkeying America and saying just days ago that there was a "Deficit problem" in Israel? And that haredi parties caused it?
ReplyDeleteDid you happen to notice today that his ministry decided to increase the deficit spending?
"The government voted to approve an increase in the state budget's deficit target for next year. Deficit spending is to be raised from 3% in the 2012 budget to 4.65% in the budget currently under negotiation, for 2013-14."
Souce A7.
Liars and frauds in Yesh Atid. No surprise.