The incident took place when two ultra-Orthodox men ordered 22-year-old Noa Kentman to move to the back of a public bus — which was traveling from Safed to Ashdod — because of her gender. The woman filed a report with the police, resulting in the arrest of the suspect. [...]
Kentman sat at the front of the intercity coach when a couple of ultra-Orthodox men demanded that she immediately remove herself to the rear of the vehicle.
When she refused, the men shouted she was “impure,” and began reciting prayers and screaming at her.
One of the ultra-Orthodox men then sat on the front steps of the bus near the driver to deliberately sit in front of her. The woman’s younger sister called the police, who sent squad cars to intercept the bus at the entrance of the destination city.
See Rav Moshe Feinstein's teshuva regarding a man sitting next to a woman on a bus
this is why moderate and secular Jews fear a Haredi dictatorship , Iranian style.
ReplyDeleteWas the bus marked and designated as MEHADRIN? If not, then females can sit wherever they choose. Even if it is Mehadrin so reason to verbally abused, physically threaten, etc. Glad the suspect, if the allegations are correct, was arrested.
Deletein reality there is no such thing as a "so-called mehadrin" bus. the law accords everyone the right to sit where he or she wishes, even on buses designated as mehadrin.
DeleteWhen will these guys learn? Some time ago when a guy was arrested in my neighborhood people said it was because he was such a masmid he didn't know of the crusade against female harassment. What's the excuse this time? Stupidity?
ReplyDeleteIn the New York City area, Monsey, Williamsburg, Monroe, Boro Park, even Lakewood, with heavy Chasidic and Charedi populations, Chasidim have set up their own very popular bus lines, with constantly improving times and more modern buses. During the year there are no problems on these lines that run between all the places such as between Boro Park and Williamsburg and to Kiryas Yoel in Monroe, and during the summer months when they pick up passengers in Manhattan many non-Charedim adapted to the rules of men in front and women at the back without any problems because the buses are owned by Chasidim and them's the rules. Finito. Nothing to debate.
ReplyDeleteSo the solution for Israel is simple, allow the Charedim and Chasidim set up their own bus companies it wowuld be a good business, they have enough customers for that, many don't have cars. In order to do that the Israeli government must release the Charedim from the mantra of "army, army, army" first, and then you will watch the Charedim do their thing. So bottom line it is a frustrating to watch the Charedim being tortured by the Chilonim who won't let the Charedim-Chasidim work unless they go to "army, army, army" first, but then expect them to abide by secular laws.
Note to all Charedim-Chasidim in Israel, in the meantime, if you don't own the buses you cannot dictate the seating arrangements, even though you may feel uncomfortable. The buses are a public utility not owned by you and everyone is equal when they board. Even so-called "mehadrin" buses are a concession and not written into any known "laws of the land" anywhere so you cannot fight those passengers who have not heard of them or even are bedavkaniks, just as the Chilonim cannot stop you from living your Charedi lifestyle when, for example, you demand that wives and husbands not appear together on the streets if that is how you want to stroll down the sidewalks and pavements of Israel.
"During the year there are no problems on these lines . . . "
ReplyDeletenot exactly
http://www.thenewyorkworld.com/2011/10/25/sex-segregation-policy-on-brooklyn-bus-line-to-end-hikind-says/
RaP your facts are not correct. At least some of the heimsihe buses are subsidized by government funds and thus gender segregations is illegal.
ReplyDelete"Daas Torah said...RaP your facts are not correct. At least some of the heimsihe buses are subsidized by government funds and thus gender segregations is illegal."
DeleteI don't know the percentages of which are and which aren't. But my point is that the companies were set up and are run by Chasidim and they therefore set up the way they seat passengers to suit those Chasidisha and Chareidisha people who want separate seating. There are clear choices to choose from, goyisha run bus companies and Chasidisha ones. Sure, even if a company is 100% owned and operated by Chasidim anyone could still sue if they wanted based on the general non-discrimination laws of the USA, just as the all-Chasidish Satmar school district of Kiryas Yoel gets sued that they should not get government funds because they only cater to Satmar Chasidim, but the New York courts have so far thrown out those challenges because they only "want to make a point" against the Chasidim.
Likewise with Charedi yeshivas that get funding from the US government, technically they are not allowed to discriminate based on "race, sex, religion, etc" but the common accepted assumption is that by handing monies to Charedi institutions, it is NOT "illegal" that they do not and will not accept non-Charedi students and certainly not gentile children. Anyhow, NORMAL secular Jews and gentiles have no desire to go to a Charedi yeshiva and likewise even though a Charedi bus company may get some official subsidization it is assumed that they are running a Charedi-type bus-line for Chareidisha-type people and therefore when a secular passenger gets on a Charedi bus, they do abide by separate seating arrangements. The same can be done in Israel if Charedim would be allowed to go into business legitimately (which is my main point!!!) to set up their own self-owned bus-lines, and even if they got some state funding, it would be understood it is for Charedi-type type passengers. The big problem with the so-called "Mehadrin" buses in Israel is that they are still owned by the same secular companies that run all the other buses with full government funds and so anyone who feels like it can make a challenge and they do.
If people want to find solution, it is easy, but if they want to make problems it is even easier!
If people want to find solution, it is easy, but if they want to make problems it is even easier!
Deletehow about this for a solution: teach people to act like בני אדם and not yell or scream or curse. sounds a lot more simpler than setting up a bus line.
and no, companies like illit and superbus and veola are not subsidized.
Most mehadrin users are pleasant and patient.
DeleteMany attempted provocations have failed for this very reason.
There are many lines and many buses every day. This has been running for many years now. In other words, statistically, the percentage of incidents is very very small.
Every incident is still ugly and terrible.
Yes, we still have where to grow in our promoting and living with sensitivity, especially to outsiders -- both to different haredim and to non-haredim.
"Ben Waxman said...how about this for a solution: teach people to act like בני אדם and not yell or scream or curse. sounds a lot more simpler than setting up a bus line."
DeleteRaP: While people should always behave like בני אדם agreed 100%, that still has nothing to do with the Charedi lifestyle of wanting separation of the sexes that they practice at their own functions and institutions but also want it for a the buses that they rely to travel in large numbers. That they should not scream at an unfortunate lone Charedi woman is also valid 100% but by the same token (good pun) a secular woman should not get on a bus when she knows it will cause a Charedi riot. Why put yourself into a cage when you know that the people in it are not the "בני אדם" that you would hope to find?
"and no, companies like illit and superbus and veola are not subsidized."
RaP: Who owns these bus companies? If they are owned by secular companies/investors then Charedim cannot force them to adhere to an absolute code, unless there is some sort of legal contract signed between a religious va'ad or bais din and the bus company and its parent company.
actually i don't get the need for any change in current practice. thousands of people ride daily on the so called mehadrin buses every day. quite often people sit in the "wrong area" (i do it all the time) but only on a rare occasion is there a problem. so why the need to change the rules?
Deletenot to mention the fact that setting up a bus line where people HAVE to act in a certain way would be setting an incredible precedent that would surely backfire on the chareidi population.
If people want to find solution, it is easy, but if they want to make problems it is even easier!
DeleteSeperation of Genders does not mean that WOMEN must sit in the back. In my buslines in NY, men are on the right or left side and women are on the other side. Gender seperation is men sitting next to men not that women disappear to the backroom. So once again, "If people want to find solutions, it is easy".
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4346332,00.html
ReplyDelete"modesty" terror squad
RAP
ReplyDeletedo you live in israel?
" unless there is some sort of legal contract signed between a religious va'ad or bais din and the bus company and its parent company?"
if the ministry of transportation allows competition on a certain line (for example beitar - bnei brak or jerusalem - modi'in), the city issues a tender for service. private companies (maybe egged or egged's daughter company as well) compete for the contract. usually the companies will agree to stipulate that the line will be gender separated if the route is a "chareidi route", like the one mentioned. who ever wins, wins.
the point is a contract is signed between a city and a private company, not between a company and some va'ad. but even if their contract stipulates gender separation, they have no legal right to enforce anything.
The other passengers were apparently silent (preferred not to get involved) -- how can that be justified?
ReplyDeleteIt seems they care neither about mentchelchkeit nor about chilul Hashem when this hits the news. And not even about the thugs who got arrested!
If the girl would have been more of a diplomat this episode could have been avoided. This is not about power. It is about trying to do the right thing.I blame the girl.
ReplyDeletebeing a diplomat goes both ways
DeleteThe Charidim might have acted with bad behavior but they did not run to the Sonei Yisroel to fan the flames of hatred. She should have been disgusted and gotten off.Life in this world is not always fair.We have to swallow some very,very bitter pills sometimes.Just because you run to the press does not mean the public both in Eretz Yisroel and outside will blame those yichidim. The blame all Charedim. The innocent and the guilty.Why should innocent people be subjected to hatred for things they had nothing to do with?
Delete"She should have been disgusted and gotten off."
Deleteor given him a quick slap to the face and stuffed that bitter pill down his throat.
"Why should innocent people be subjected to hatred for things they had nothing to do with?"
for someone who just advised a stiff upper lip when faced with adversity, you are suddenly crying out like Iyov in the face of the innocent suffering.
To be honest I think a slap in the face would be preferable to running to the newspapers to be melamaid chov. If she was afraid of personal injury I would back that option!Nowhere does it state anywhere that she had been injured, punched,slapped or burnt (ala Weberman style).Much ado about nothing. We can expect more of these provocations and distortions.If anybody has not noticed by now the war on Charidim as been in full gear for about a year.This same media that believes that it is okay for two men to marry each other and adopt little boys is the same media that relishes these stories. Our myopic frum brothers don't understand that this story is NOT about a young lady subjected to verbal abuse. This is simply one article in a battle against the Charedim. One day there is a story about Metzitza Bepeh. The next day it is about a dress code in a Williamsburg store,the next day yeshivas are accused of child abuse because of the amount of Gemara learning they do per day (yes,this too can be seen on you tube.I think it was the BBC).One day it is about child mutilation called "Bris Milah" (even without MBP).One day it is about the cruel Charedi practice of Scheita .Why are people so blind as not to see a pattern within the last few years.It is a full scale war .Instead readers actually think they are singular incidents. You need to get the big picture.Three years ago none of these things were in the press on a daily basis.
DeleteOn the post regarding bullying Koilel Nick says never become a tattletale or a shtinker by telling the teacher. I agree with him 200%. But when you go to the press you do just that.That is the only option I hate. Not because I like bad behavior.I dislike it just as much as everybody else.But doing this creates fodder for Jew haters and liberal Jews who are in a position to hurt or help.This blog has good people on it but plenty of shtinkers as well.How they love the articles in the Jewish Daily Forward, Haaretz,etc. that publish Charedi misdeeds.Pointing an accusing finger at Klall Yisroel is the job of the Satan. If somebody wishes to help the Satan that is on them. Let the Master of the Vineyard attend to His own thorns!
ReplyDeleteInteresting that you should cite as authoritative the view in BM 83 that we don't posken like. In fact we posken like that of Rav Eliezar Ben Rav Shimon that you don't wait around for G-d to take care of criminals but we must maket the effort ourselves.
DeleteIn fact your whole understanding is against the official halacha. If beis din can't help we go to secular courts - even if that involves publicity. Even Rav Moshe Feinstein was willing to go secular court to stop the publication of what he thought was an English translation of the Igros Moshe
@daas Torah.I don't disagree with one word. I think I am the one who is being misunderstood.Where did I ever write that you can't go to the cops or the secular courts when you need to. Daas Torah wrote that when there is no other option one may use the courts or to avoid a cover up.I accept that. I only said not to run to frum bashing periodicals.If an arrest gets out on it's own that is one thing.But to go directly to the press is another.I don't agree with it as it is a sakana as I have explained.Also I merely used the wording in Bava Metziah because it applied to what I believe .I don't want my words to be confused with the laws of mesirah.Cops and journalists are two seperate groups.
DeleteI might add that I also don't have any problem of reprinting that which has already been printed.
Deletegoing to the press is simply one more weapon, and a legitimate weapon. the police won't do a thing unless they have a gun to their collective head.
Deleteand btw - anyone who wants to learn about the dirt in the chareidi community would do well to forget haaretz and yediot. he merely needs to read the chareidi press, both written and web sites.
The young lady called the police over this narishkeit and they indeed came and made arrests for hurting her feelings. She was not injured.I only know of two Charedi newspapers from Eretz Yisroel(I live in America).One is called Machne HaCharedi and the other is one I used to read called HaModia.I am sure there are others.But even if what you say is true the non-frum people don't read frum newspapers.Going to the press is not a legitimate weapon.Unless the idea of the weapon is to hurt Jews.
DeleteShe only has the right from being bullied if she gets hurt!? That it totally absurd. Please read the Chasam Sofer Gitin 7a which describes an individual being verbally abused who called the police resulting in the death of his verbal abuser. The Chasam Sofer says that is halacha l'maaseh.
DeleteSee the Chinuch #338 that a person has the right to self defense against verbal abuse and this is learned from the din of rodef.
You are using the logic that an abuse victim should shut up because it is better to suffer then have the chilul haShem of publicity. THAT IS NOT THE HALACHA!
Why don't you devote your energies convincing the idiots who terrorize women to stop rather than telling women to tolerate the abuse?
First I will look into these mekoros. She didn't have to be the victim of abuse. She wanted to make her Rosa Parks statement and this ensued. It could have been avoided.If she did what these (for the sake of argument lets call them misguided)"idiots" asked then she would not have been bullied and then I believe as a hava amina that this in the Chinuch is speaking about a person who through no fault of his own was trapped into verbal abuse that could not in any,way,shape or form escaped from it.Also you say that is not the Halacha.If I asked somebody else of stature might he disagree? Might he bring mekoros in the opposite direction.I want to see.
Deletetype gittin 7a into the search engine on this blog
Deletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2010/08/word-of-cautioncountersuing-yeshiva-in.html
I saw the Chinuch.(And for other reasons outside I'm glad I relearned this).There is no question to me that a person does not have to take verbal abuse and can save themselves in anyway possible.But rabbi,the way I see the scenario is like this. I don't believe their motivation is to bully .Bullying is about people who through no fault of their own get picked on. That is also serious business.We know that this can even lead to suicide among teenagers (Rachmana L"tzlan)!But where does it say in the Chinuch that if you chose to stand your ground on an issue instead of avoiding a machlokes,even if you are in the right and as a result of that the avoidable abuse starts that it is what the Chinuch is speaking about.VAYN BO KOACH LHAYAZER MAYHEM.That isn't this case.All she had to do was give in or get off.So she did have two other options!Not exactly a victims of circumstances as described.The person here has no other way of avoiding the abuse.If this is incorrect I am open to learn and accept it.
DeleteYou are demanding that she give in and even get off the bus?! How many hours of waiting for another bus and how much additional fares would you require? What are your parameters?
DeleteWhat would you do if the man was demanding payment to stop the abuse - would you pay it? How much money would you require her to pay before she is allowed to call the police?
What if the abuser was spilling water on her - would you insist that she needs to accept that since there is no permanent damage?
Let's put it another way - would you tell your wife and daughters to give in to this abuse?
I think you position is absurd. If you want to be a big tzadik and not exercise your RIGHT to self defense then that is your business. But you can not demand of another person not to defend himself/herself - even for an inconvenience.
The Chasam Sofer makes no requirement that a person tolerate abuse nor does the Chinuch. You are misreading the Chinuch.He seems to be saying there is no sin in verbal abuse if the person can defend himself against it. He doesn't say not to defend oneself against it and give in to the bullying.
My wife would admire men who are trying to break their tayvos. Breaking tayvos is why we are on this earth. She would want to help them. But if,for example,people non-Jews made trouble for her she would look to settle it quietly in whatever needs to be done.I would pay this woman's fare if I knew should would turn it into an international incident.I don't condone verbal abuse.Nobody has the right to order anybody around on a public bus.But in order to avoid the bad publicity and the hatred that goes along with this I would give her 10 times the fare to appease her. By the way,that is not being a "big tzadik". I am concerned about the image of the Jewish People. I want to be a decent person.You don't start World War III over stupid klienekeit.
DeleteDT writes concerning the Chinuch" He doesn't say not to defend oneself against it and give in to the bullying".And again I believe this is where he has no option but to be a victim.There is an option to be a diplomat even if you are right and they are wrong.It seems to me that being so liberal about using the media (notice I did not write the police) to throw mud on the entire frum community is way out of step with normative procedure.You might want to highlight misdeeds in order to prevent them.I get it.Believe me I understand it. But what happens is that it incites hatred against everybody.They don't make a nafka mina who is a fanatic and who is a tzaddik. This is too costly.This incites sinah among the non-frumer and the goyim especially Israel's enemies.They kvell over these stories.If stopping the problem can be done in a different way that won't cause everybody to pay for the sins of a few that would be my solution.I think your position is rare and not shared by many people.(That doesn't mean it is not valid.) I believe most people would agree with me but not the type who post here.Every time I write this people think I am defending the actions of the fanatics. I believe that the results and the "big picture" is what is at stake.
ut in order to avoid the bad publicity and the hatred that goes along with this I would give her 10 times the fare to appease her
Deleteeasy statement to make since you know perfectly well that you won't have to.
My wife would admire men who are trying to break their tayvos. Breaking tayvos is why we are on this earth.
DeleteDemanding that a woman move to the back of the bus so that you can't see her isn't breaking Tayvos, it is surrendering to them. Breaking Tayvos is realizing that there is a woman there, and so sticking your nose into a Mishnah or Chok for the duration of the bus ride. Choosing the holy over the carnal desires.
What this is surrender. Worse it is blaming an outside other for something that you should rightly be dealing with inside yourself.
She would want to help them.
Good then hopefully she would also refuse to move to the back of the bus.
The Gay community in New York City has already taken it upon themselves to become the chief adversaries of the Charedi community.They attack with gusto and glee in the pages of the NY Post (one of many examples) with and without cause .One article for example ,featured a dress code in a store in Williamsburg (ignorning the thousands of bars in the city that have dress codes. The gays have done this because the frum are against same gender marriage and will not accept it.Now,let's say a man with payess needs to go to court for any reason .The judge and jury already have it in for him.And I don't think (I pray I that I am wrong that this is the end of it).As the economy worsens here they will remember the plethora of hate and the goyim will take their rage out against all Jews (R"L) not just the Charedim who are attacked in the press on almost a daily basis.Orthodox Jews accused of crimes are the only group mentioned by ethnic origin .The press article that you cheer can backfire on innocent Jews.
ReplyDelete@Ben Waxman -Some of us actually would prevent a Chillul Hashem by putting down a little money (it is not a fortune) to prevent an unbelievable, international Chillul Hashem. We are not talking huge bucks and even if we were would Hashem not pay us back.When I lived in Israel many years ago that is what people did (as Rabbi Tzadok suggested).They learned.They stuck their nose in a Kahati or something.But anything people can do to create a society of tzinius is positive .People should be tzanua and this is the spirit of the Torah.I don't know how these changes came about .You don't surrender to taivos if there is an system actually in place (if).That is absurd.If you ask a woman to dress with tznius is that surrendering to taivos? According to your line of reasoning Rabbi Tzadok, girls could prance about buck naked because asking them to wear modest clothes is surrendering to our taivos? We should be sticking our noses in a mishnayos (which is also correct,I agree) and not look at them.And Rabbi I wish to remind you that girls are half naked in the styles of our day anyway.This system creates an excellent geder .There is no argument that spitting on anybody is a disgusting outrage .@Ben Waxman-Yehallecha zar...vlo......peecha.I am hardly middle class and my wife plucked down $50 bucks last night at the drop of a hat out of our scarce money for kiruv. We are far from rich,closer to poor(Rachmana L"TZLAN).Hashem helps always and we will never be misers.I am a Maimon. Everything a Jew does ,be it in tzinus,tzdaka or avoiding a Chillul Hashem will be noted by the Hakodosh Baruchu who is true to reward!
ReplyDelete" Everything a Jew does ,be it in tzinus,tzdaka or avoiding a Chillul Hashem will be noted by the Hakodosh Baruchu who is true to reward!"
ReplyDeleteמחלוקת ראשונים
i never saw anywhere in sefer hatanya in which he tells someone that if he wants to be closer to go, he tells someone else how to dress.
Tanya, I don't know so much. However the Arizal, and later the Rashash clearly stated that causing someone to do Teshuva is one of the surest ways to draw closer to HaShem.
DeleteThat being said, Kiruv happens b'darkhei noam. I have yet to find someone who decided to do Teshuva because they were intimidated on a bus or had their car pelted with stones on Shabbat.
Rabbi I wish to remind you that girls are half naked in the styles of our day anyway.
L'fi Halakha if you notice how women who are not your wife or daughters are dressed(as a man) you have already transgressed.
What should it matter to man if a woman dressed perfectly Tznua is sitting in a seat ahead of him on a bus or not(you can't really see over those seats on the intra-city buses). Further(as a man) you shouldn't notice if she is dressed Tznua or not. So, in effect you should leave the lady alone. Don't even get me started on the issues of talking to a non-related female in a public sphere(which the above bullying requires).
You can try to play the Tzadik card all you want. However, the whole thing reeks of one transgression after another dressed up in false piety.
Ben Waxman said I never saw anywhere in sefer hatanya in which he tells someone that if he wants to be closer to go, he tells someone else how to dress.Maybe you can draw a diyuk or maybe it is mefurash in Hocheah Tochayach. It is a good question and I will try to get an answer for it sometime today.(Bli Neder).My guess is that it was more of a jibe but I would like to know the answer.I remember when I learned in Eretz Yisroel ,the locals in Sanhedria HaMurchevet would block the streets off on Shabbos and when a car try to pass they would scream "Shabbos,Shabbos". I admired them.
DeleteRabbi Tzadok wrote L'fi Halakha if you notice how women who are not your wife or daughters are dressed(as a man) you have already transgressed.Dude,you surely jest.Everybody in the world walking on a street or going into a store,whether he like it or not see things he didn't get the chance to turn away from before seeing what they saw.Ha!I am only repeating .Rav Ahron Kotler said "A subway ride in NYC can ruin an entire zman at Lakewood learning".So are you saying that Rav Ahron transgressed (Chas VeShalom) or that the people giving him the information did?The Satmar Rov (TZ"L) said the women in Florida dress in bathing suits in the street(either Yayoel Moshe or Al Hageulah).Who even said that initiating kiruv is a chiyuv?Rav Auerbach said that any Israeli citizen is not considered a Tinok Shenishba.(I happen to believe in kiruv).And on that point I must agree .I never liked somebody smacking a cigar out of somebodies else's mouth on Shabbos but I never doubted the motives of people who did it.Rabbi Tzadok said "You can try to play the Tzadik card all you want. However, the whole thing reeks of one transgression after another dressed up in false piety."My motivation for this would be what? I don't even post under my own name."Aspiring Mekubal,leave the judging to the judge.
ReplyDeleteDude,you surely jest.Everybody in the world walking on a street or going into a store,whether he like it or not see things he didn't get the chance to turn away from before seeing what they saw.
DeleteNo I don't jest. That is the halakha. You are responsible for where your eyes wonder. There are specific guidelines in halakha as to how do deal with this. Further what passes before your line of sight isn't the problem. It what you choose to look at that is going to kill you. There is a distinct difference in halakha between seeing, and looking.
.Rav Ahron Kotler said "A subway ride in NYC can ruin an entire zman at Lakewood learning".So are you saying that Rav Ahron transgressed (Chas VeShalom) or that the people giving him the information did?
No. I think Rav Kotler's comment is completely accurate. If a person does not guard his eyes and his thoughts with the utmost care can in fact ruin his entire zman. Rav Yaakov Hillel brings this exact quote in his pirush on Mesilat Yesharim, Ascending the Path, and relates it to riding buses. He is quite adamant there than separate seating does not help the problem, as the problem is bad middot.
While it may be comforting to blame others for one's own bad middot, ultimately it is rather counter productive.
Oh.I understand. Well then we are on the same daf.Bad niddot like screaming at girls? Daas Torah said there kavana was nothing other than power.
Delete@Das Torah-The Chasam Sofer makes no requirement that a person tolerate abuse nor does the Chinuch. You are misreading the Chinuch. He seems to be saying there is no sin in verbal abuse if the person can defend himself against it. He doesn't say not to defend oneself against it and give in to the bullying.Flavor Lounge-Then does that mean a person (the abusive one) is saved from a sin if the other fights back?Then why would keeping silent in such a situation be a mida of chassidus?Tole earetz al blima (?).To be honest I am really glad I saw that Chinuch because I am sick of people's abusive behavior.If a widow is being very nasty to me can I answer her back?
ReplyDeleteRegarding the issue of helpless. He seems to understand that is the pshat in the gemora. Thus a baal teshuva is helpless - because he is being shamed by that which he is He is helpless in be a baal teshuva. Similar if someone doesn't know something and is given information - he is helpless in that he can't help his ignorance. The widow is suffering abuse because she is fragile because she is a widow just like an orphan is fragile because he is an orphan and a wife is fragile because she is a wife. They are helpless. The question then is what is a case where he isn't helpless. If a woman is being abused for sitting in the front of the bus - is she helpless because she can't stop being a woman or is she not helpless because she can move, leave the bus or call the police? Couldn't find any commentaries on the subject.
DeleteOur world evolves. We have new situations daily. The bus gender business was not around in the 80's.We need new published Tshuvos to guide us.Having had many articles written about me I can safely say there was a malicious streak in some of them in addition to things the reporters knew were outright lies. Even positive things written about me contained peripheral information that were outright lies.So when a biased newspaper like the Times of Israel writes "they ordered her" and then "they started praying loudly"(mincha?for Mashiach?) we have to step back and not be so naive as to believe everything these people say.This is not Torah Min HaShamayim. Another point is despite being weaker she could get off the bus or move to me seems to obviate the theory that she is as helpless as a widow,Baal Tshuva or an orphan.Why? Because there is nothing they can do to change their situation.She had two other options so she is not the same.Is it absurd for her to move?If she doesn't want to help others in their quest for ruchnius and she is secular then obviously it is absurd. Is it fair to get off a bus,wait for another and pay a second fare.No,but if she felt threatened it would be wise.I saw an interview in a piece done by Yair Lapid where a Charedi man said that they had the Haskama of their leaders.I simply don't have the information on that and certainly spitting on people ala Beit Shemesh seems gross.
DeleteAssuming the facts of the story are correct - and they sound realistic - then you are saying she should avoid a confrontation and get off the bus and pay wait for another bus and pay another fare?!
DeleteI am saying she has no chiyuv to do so. In fact I feel she should not give in as that only encourages these nuts from making further demands. That your insistence that it is important for the ruchinus of others is ridiculous. Would you also say that women should be told not to be on the streets for a number of hours a day to promote men's spirtuality? Reread Rav Moshe's tshuva on sitting next to a woman on the bus. Nowhere does he suggest that a woman should give up her seat. He does say that there is something wrong with the man if it arouses him. He places the burden on the man. If it bothers him the man should move - not the woman.
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2010/11/rav-moshe-feinstein-sitting-next-to.html
First of all I think to a certain extent there is a disconnect. Rav Moshe might have tshuva but I believe that a tshuva written for the United States of America in 1950 or Israel when Yiddishkeit was much weaker in terms of numbers(or whenever it was) on a New York City Metro bus or wherever it was, is way different from a bus in Eretz Yisroel if there is a custom or understanding that women sit in the back.So DT would you agree with me that at least in terms of the era and circumstance the nature of the shaiyla is different.In other words.If there is no custom or understanding on that bus line that women sit in the back and men in the front these people certainly are nuts!I am also saying she has no chiuv to do so.There are many times I knew I was in the right and the Charedim were in the wrong and I was mevater (despite being disgusted and very angry).I could have turned it into an issue.I don't have a beard or wear black clothes.I walked into a coat store on Lee Ave and the owner took me by the arm ,dragged me into the street and threw me out.He said in broken English "Dis is far Chasidish coats not for you".You don't think in today's climate the New York Post,News,Jewish Week and Forward would be chomping at the bit to do a story on that!They sure would.But I understand that there are many ,sweet,honest people there.Why give them a black eye because this man is a pig?I am angry but I would rather preserve the good name of the people of that community.
DeleteWhen a woman dresses with tznius in my area I am grateful.She is doing me a chessed. She is saving me from hirhurim .The seforim say that women who don't dress with modesty causes hundreds of men to sin. Not to mitigate the man's ultimate responsibility.Not to praise those who disgrace us by spitting on people.I am attracted to women. I am grateful to the ladies for not tempting me to look.Any straight person who says he is not tempted is a shakran .I will reread the tshuva.
As the Chareidim became increasing demanding for separation the buses going through the religoius neighborhoods did in fact have segregated seating. That was not the minhag before. Don't know if that made it the minhag. But now that the law is very clear and there are signs up in the buses - women - including frum women - now sit in the front of the bus. Does that make it a new minhag?
DeleteWe are not talking about a minhag of generations - but simply of recent history because some pushed and people accomadated them. Now the secular public and secular law pushed back and restored the minhag of before. But it is not only the secular public - there were demands that couples not sit together or fathers and daughters. There are many chareidim who also don't want the strict gender separation superivsed by loud mouth boors - but they are afraid to speak out. It is not an issues of avoiding dispute and assisting some men to be on a higher spiritual plane. It is primarily an issue of power.
Does a woman have to give into the bullying of someone who feels woman should sit in the back? Obviously no! The point being that to the degree that people cave in to demands there will be new demands. If the women demand their right to sit where they want - than the vast majority of chareidim can live with that reality.
The goal posts get moved everytime there is a concession.
Your naive description of the dynamics has nothing to do with what actually goes on over here.
The Tshuva-However if it is known that this will bring about lustful thoughts then he should refrain from traveling in these circumstances if it isn’t necessary." Indeed!Is this not the entire reason many of the Charedim In Eretz Yisroel established these customs on a bus or frum bus lines.(Exactly how this works is not exactly clear to most people living in New York).Rav Moshe knew people had to get to work and the transit system was simply the only way.What else would they do? Starve themselves and their families? But to say that it there is something wrong with the person? To me is saying that in order to gird yourself your mind should be immersed in learning.If it bothers the man indeed he should move.That should be obvious.But from Chutz Laaertz it seems that people are trying to create a new order in which tzinut is respected .About tshuvos and peskei halacha.Not only the Tshuva is important but the shaiyla ,the era,the country.2013 Geulah,Yerushalyim for example is not post WWII Brooklyn.There was no such thing as a gender based line then.People have cars in the United States which is more true now than it was in 1950 for example.Some information is always the same.People don't use mass transit in a derech chibah.Rav Miller,TZ"L would often say "Whatever it takes not to sin".If that means you don't buy a product without a good hechsher because somebody is watching it is still good.It might not be the best reason but let us use whatever we can .I support all efforts to keep frum people frum and frumer but that does not mean "by any means necessary".But the overall trajectory I think is very good.
Delete"Naive description " to you.Why would people scream at her and then start praying loudly???Is this a joke.I guess the praying was also part of the bullying?I have no idea of what goes on there or how this all came into being since I have not been there in decades.I do know how journalists,especially of the anti-Torah ilk operate.Now I want to ask about the Gemara (Dom Lashem).Mar Ukva wanted to go to the cops and had a right to!But why don't you tell the rest of the story.He was advised not to and the person subjecting him to the abuse was arrested and killed.That Gemara would suggest the opposite.You get better results by not doing anything.I wanted to be maser somebody for I was in the right.The Rosh Yeshiva showed me the same Gemara to prove the opposite point.
Delete"We are not talking about a minhag of generations - but simply of recent history because some pushed and people accomadated them"
Delete15 years more or less.
"Any straight person who says he is not tempted is a shakran"; not necessarily. there are people with low levels of desire for people of the opposite sex. they aren't gay, just simply don't get that excited. the tanya talks about that as well.
however that is all irrelevant. if you have hirhurim, deal with it. take cold showers, take pills, work on yourself and learn how to control yourself. but leave her out of it.
btw - it was supposedly rav elyashiv who made that statement about secular israelis not having the din of tinok shenishba, not rav auerbach. someone i know from a different discussion group quoted the Munkatcher Rebbe as believing that there are few or no TSNs today. However the same source went to say that the majority of poskim reject that position. which is good for the yeshivot because if the roshei yeshivot really believed that all secular jews were really kofrim, they wouldn't be able to take their money.
phew.
"Naive description " to you.Why would people scream at her and then start praying loudly???Is this a joke.I guess the praying was also part of the bullying?I have no idea of what goes on there or how this all came into being since I have not been there in decades.I do know how journalists,especially of the anti-Torah ilk operate.Now I want to ask about the Gemara (Dom Lashem).Mar Ukva wanted to go to the cops and had a right to!But why don't you tell the rest of the story.He was advised not to and the person subjecting him to the abuse was arrested and killed.That Gemara would suggest the opposite.You get better results by not doing anything.I wanted to be maser somebody for I was in the right.The Rosh Yeshiva showed me the same Gemara to prove the opposite point.
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so you and your rosh yeshiva disagree with the Chasam Sofer. I think the Chasam Sofer is a bigger authority - you disagree
Flavor lounge - you base yourself on a sevora that journalists are out to get chareidim to discredit the story and argue with me. Why don't do yourself a favor and come for a visit [since your understanding of the country is decades out of date ]and see the reality or at least ask those of us who live here whether the story is realistic.
DeleteI don't disagree with the Chasam Sofer and "he" is not my Rosh Yeshiva but a rosh yeshiva in the area.Please explain this Gemara. Okay, we know Mar Ukva was correct that he could go to the cops.But why was he urged not to go to the cops? It is simply a question because this incident is difficult to understand.In other words the response to Mar Ukva was not "Great,go to the cops".It was the opposite.And in addition,Mar Ukva did not go to the cops.Why was this advise given ?
Delete@Ben Waxman-I heard that of Rav Lopian (ZT"L)it was said he was in his 90s and blind in one eye and he had tayvos.When a bocher wanted to go to Tel Aviv for a wedding Rav Lopian protested due to the preetzus. The bocher said it would not effect him. Rav Lopian started screaming for a doctor saying if he didn't have tayvos he was ill.(Obviously not only bochur as the elderly rabbi included himself).I don't know any Tanya.If there is someone like this I have not met them.I am no spring chicken and I never met a healthy person without them.
DeleteFlavor LoungeFebruary 22, 2013 at 12:56 AM
DeleteI don't disagree with the Chasam Sofer and "he" is not my Rosh Yeshiva but a rosh yeshiva in the area.Please explain this Gemara. Okay, we know Mar Ukva was correct that he could go to the cops.But why was he urged not to go to the cops? It is simply a question because this incident is difficult to understand.In other words the response to Mar Ukva was not "Great,go to the cops".It was the opposite.And in addition,Mar Ukva did not go to the cops.Why was this advise given ?
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Please read the Chasam Sofer more carefully because he answered your question:
Chasam Sofer wrote at the end of his commentary to Gittin 7a
It would seem that if hadn’t been for the fact that Mar Ukva had a solution to the harassment problem by going to the study hall it would have been permitted to report his assailants to the secular government. However this solution is only relevant for an individual. But it is not relevant for the community and therefore it is clearly permitted to report the community nuisance to the government. Also see the Pnei Yehoshua’s discussion of this gemora where he says that the solution of going to the study hall and complaining to G‑d about the assailant is not correct if one can stop the harasser in other ways. However he says if the harassers cause him to waste time from Torah and prayer because of his upset he can stop the harassers in any manner…
Flavor LoungeFebruary 22, 2013 at 1:04 AM
Delete@Ben Waxman-I heard that of Rav Lopian (ZT"L)it was said he was in his 90s and blind in one eye and he had tayvos.When a bocher wanted to go to Tel Aviv for a wedding Rav Lopian protested due to the preetzus. The bocher said it would not effect him. Rav Lopian started screaming for a doctor saying if he didn't have tayvos he was ill.(Obviously not only bochur as the elderly rabbi included himself).I don't know any Tanya.If there is someone like this I have not met them.I am no spring chicken and I never met a healthy person without them.
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so we can conclude from your story - and the fact that frum people got married in Tel Aviv and that this story was told about Rav Lopian - that this was considered an extreme response to the situation.
We had this discussion not to long ago regarding the Levush - where poskim acknowledge that in our society there is a phenomenon known as habituation. To the degree that someone obsesses about the possibility of improper thoughts - his yetzer harah focuses on that. That is clear from Rav Moshe's teshuvos. There is something called normal.
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2012/10/n.html
Rav Scheinberg used to posken that it was alright for an American bachur to go to families with teenage girls but that it was prohibited for the Israelis to do so because they weren't used to the situation.
I conclude from this story that most healthy people have normal tayvos .Having tayvos is not the yotzei min a klall. It is normal.This story is told over by rabbis to make that point in a jocular way.I don't see any extreme response. I see a smart rabbi making a good point.
DeleteI suspect the girl wanted to be a roza parks2.
ReplyDeleteIt is known the beit shemesh story was a blood libel from lapid-lipman invented 4 months after the alledged incident. She was not spit at.
Lets wait and see what happens at the trail.
Kol ha kavod flaouver lounge... You are a breath of fresh air on this blog...
ReplyDeleteThank you Observer.Stick around so I don't get isolated.
DeleteKol ha kavod flaouver lounge... You are a breath of fresh air on this blog...
ReplyDeleteTshuvos from Psokim-Era and location. DT quotes the Steipler at some point saying that it is better to imprison somebody through secular police and courts and that he should be punished and have time to think about what he did and do tshuva than face the consequences in the next world.My question is are these tshuvos for all eras and countries ?For example.If this were brought to the Steipler when he lived in Tzarist Russia would he have said the same thing? How much time do you get in Siberia to dwell on the vile things you have done before you drop dead of frostbite or hunger? My impression is that the question was from an Israeli person and a secular court in Israel.@DT.Would the psak change to reflect social conditions and locations? A secular court and prison in the USA is different than one in Israel.Jews have it worse here.I know two cases of Jewish inmates who were murdered as soon as they arrived because they were Jews(Irv Rubin,Earl Krugel).Also the business of Rav Moshe not wanting to publish the Igros Moshe in English.I don't have a volume close but my understanding was that he feared people would pasken or derive a din from it when in fact these were individual questions with individual answers.(One of several reasons).There might be a tshuva on something but time and place might reflect a different answer.
ReplyDeletePS to my story about the Rosh Yeshiva who used the same Gemara not to go to the authorities.I asked to Rav Sternbuch,SHLIT"A and he disagreed and said "yes".I am not arguing with DT. The downside to the internet is that on a forum like this it lacks voice tone and questions can be understood as arguments or being critical.I would need to go to Eretz Yisroel to see for myself.But one thing I do know.The journalists of papers like the Jewish Daily Forward.There exists no greater enemy of the Torah on this earth!It defies human logic to say that if every single day(including today) they do stories to benefit frum victims of this or that.They attack anything and everything in our community.We are labeled and libeled "The enemy within".They do publish lies.Newspapers do have agendas.Having been interviewed a dozen times by major news outlets,reading papers daily and knowing journalists I know their motivation is not to help the Torah.Sometimes the goal of an individual Jew and a newspaper is the same.But the motivation is to attack the Torah on the part of the paper.They want to ban scheita,mila (not just mbp) ,call poor Charedim and their children "the undeserving poor".They turn a blind eye to every misdeed unless a chassid is involved and then it is a spotlight goes on.Our community is labeled and libeled the "enemy within".How could a paper like that want the best interests of the community or individuals within it.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand your comment about Rav Sternbuch. Are you claiming that he disagrees with my understanding of the Chasam Sofer or that he disagrees with the Chasam Sofer? What was the question he was asked? Did he say it was prohibited to seek help from the police or that it wasn't desirable? All you have done is claim he said "yes" - without providig an understanding of what he was asked and the circumstances of his answer
DeleteAgain you are going on with a tirade about the press. You have not shown that the press exaggerated this particular story. From my own experience in Israel the story sounds valid. Furthermore even those newspapers that are anti-chareidi or anti-relgious are in fact capable of accurately reporting facts - while the religious papers either don't report them or distort them.
The question was if an employer who robbed money from very old almonos who needed their money back (it was a Jewish institution and the almonos had lent money with IOUs and the only way to recover the money was to alert the authorities,otherwise the evidence(the IOUs and other documents) would be destroyed if he (the employer/ director knew the authorities were coming.Other people who were robbed as well were employees whose payroll taxes were robbed while the employer(the director of the Jewish institution)issued phony tax stubs in their names.So the question was if the police could be called in immediately.The man refused to pay back about $100,000 years after he promised the almonos they would get it back in two weeks.He hoped they would die before he had to pay.They were in their 90s. The answer was "yes" from Rav Sternbuch.This rosh yeshiva told me it was assur to go to the authorities based on that Gemara and I received word in the name of Rav Sternbuch that it was mutar. Nothing came of the whole thing as I recall).It doesn't seem to me like Rav Sternbuch disagrees with your understanding of the Chasam Sofer at all or that he disagrees with the Chasam Sofer.The variables are different but there does not seem to be any disagreement between Rabbi Eidensohn and Rav Sternbuch.It was five years ago.I don't remember all the details.
ReplyDeleteI think there is something of a disconnect as I had mentioned.I don't really know what is going on in Israel in terms of buses .I don't read Israeli papers.But in the United States there are groups trying to hurt us.I think this is a huge problem that nobody addresses hence the "tirade".As far as the TIMES OF ISRAEL it doesn't make sense that after "ordering" a lady to take a back seat these people would suddenly begin to pray out loud.Why would they do that?That doesn't sound true.You have experienced and seen these bullies in action.Had they ever prayed in the middle of their screaming to daven? I can't comment on the rest of it. BeKitzur,my view is that if given the green light all options are fine with the exception of going to the press. Yidden have to live with the consequences.
thank you for your clarification - from the context of your statement it seemed that you were bringing proof to your rosh yeshiva.
DeleteRegarding calling the police for monetary issues. Firstly since there was more than one victim it would be someone who is tormenting the masses - where the Rambam clearly allows calling the police. (It would seem also in the bus case not only was more than one person the victim but it can be assumed that these tactics would be used with others.)
Secondly regarding monetary loss there are other who permit it based on this gemora
Minchos Yitzchok (8:148):
the Sema (C.M. 388:30):“This that the abuser is not reported to the secular authorities is only when he is verbally abusive but if he causes financial loss and surely if he beats him or causes bodily suffering it is permitted to report him to the secular authorities as is stated in the Rema and the Darchei Moshe. See also the Tur (C.M. 425:2).” This distinction is readily seen according to the Chasam Sofer’s explanation of the Rambam… Rashi also would seem to support the idea that if the abuser caused a loss of money and forgery then it is permitted to report him
"Yidden have to live with the consequences"
ReplyDeleteI don't know who you are including in your definition of yidden, the abused woman is also a yid.
Fine so your solution that the guys bothering her should be knocked out is fine.But why would you want the reputation of people who help other Yidden like those who do chessed,Hatzala,etc be tarnished.Even Avraham Avinu worried for the Tzaddikim among reshaim (in that case they were the minority) in Sodem.What do good people do to warrant staining them?
Deletehttp://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/443/396.html?hp=1&cat=402&loc=4
ReplyDelete"יקיר ירושלים" לרב ששמו נקשר בהטרדה מינית