Sunday, October 21, 2012

Rav Gestetner: No need for heter 100 rabbis - minority view?

I posted a letter from Rav Gestetner in July 2012 regarding a dispute between Rav Gestetner and Rav Shlomo Miller. At that time the claim was the Rav Gestetner was out on the fringe etc without support from major poskim. The following was sent me today which seems to give an entirely different picture. If anyone has the original letter from Rav Miller I would like to add it to this post.

Just added two important letters 1) from my brother and 2) a letter from sent by Rav Knopfler of the Bedatz of Lakewood


Daas Torah July 2012 Remarry without heter 100 Rabbonim?

91 comments:

  1. anyway, monogamy is no jewish tradition. True judaism is polygamous. It is time to do away with this ban of Rabbi Gershon which contributed to completely alienate true judaism.

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  2. @ DT -Perhaps you could summarize the various claims on who holds what opinion?

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  3. Sephardim never had any Rabbeinu Gershoms. And they could legally have more than one wife, even while actively married to a woman, even today.

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  4. indeed! does not have a clue about anything to do with halocho. he is a joke with his defiance of a dayan of rav karelitz's bais din. Sam needs to justify his previous loshon horah against rav gestetner. yiddishkeit is not a personal fiefdom of roshei kollel.

    As for Eddie, still no answering the corruption of the BDA and the 5 questions.

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  5. Is it not the case that anyone with whom you agree,ipso facto becomes a Gaon. Nobody had heard of R' Gestetner, until he received he PR from R @Dovid E, and Stan. Suddenly he is gaon and leader of Israel.

    Also, why does R Dovid feel the need to mention who he studied with at the beginning and end of his letters , articles and video lectures? I have never seen this need for self validation amongst any major Talmid Hacham.

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  6. A few questions if the owner of the blog can answer,
    Why did this yid leave Israel before giving a get? Why did he involve the Rabonim in Lakewood,Monsey or Toronto,shouldn't he deal with it in Israel?
    If he knows Rabbi Miller is against what he did, does he think people in Toronto will agree with him?
    How many times has this person been married?
    What does he do?
    Does the blog owner know if the people who once supported him still does,or have they changed their minds and now they support Rabbi Miller?
    Why does he need any support, is he in need of money? Can someone prove this?
    I am not trying to belittle anyone, but if someone claims he needs support, I believe he should back it up.

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    1. Aron Goldberger has not been seen around Toronto for the past 2 weeks. What happened? Did he move again without notifying anyone?

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    2. He is currently in Lakewood with his daughter.

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  7. I don't know if nobody heard of Rav Gestetner before I mentioned his name. I checked him out with major Dayanim and all agreed that he is a true Talmid Chochom, but he has no fear and attacks every Beth Din that does something he disagrees with. If anyone wants to argue with him, let them do so. He always presents his critiques with lengthy and scholarly citations of sources. But he has a lot of enemies.
    I never said he was the leader of Israel. That is something I reserve for myself!!
    As far as my signing my letters as a Talmid of this or that one, I feel this is appropriate, because today when there are so many people called "rabbis" who spout out idiotic things in Gittin law, if I enter the fray, I want to put my credentials up front. I was trained.

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    1. Dear Rabbi Eidensohn,
      I have tremendous respect for what you do, especially in the part of gitten. You are asking the people to help him out after according to your words, he went against his rebbi Rav Aerbach and the Lakewood Beis din. To put it in lay terms, he didn't care to listen to Beis din. He still owes money and ha not gone to Beis din to deal with it. I realize you are trying to help the situation but as of now, he didn't pay her anything . Am I correct on this? Again, this is going on for years according to your letter and supposedly this person is considered a Talmud chacham according to the letters on this blog, and yet, what bothers you is that people are not helping out this family? Nobody wants to hurt a geyores ,but I don't think to
      many people besides Stan will help out this case.
      You say there is a chillul Hashem going on but who's fault is it. Let's assume he's not in cherem, does that mean he deserves help. Who gave him a heter? It sounds that it was based on feelings and not Halacha. Why isn't his name mentioned here. Is he embarrassed on his psak?
      What help does this couple need? Is he going to work? Who was megayer her? Did she understand what she was doing when she married him? Is it ok to see other women when you are married and claim you want your wife back?
      I respect all your work, and I believe you do it total leshem shamayim. Hashem should give you hatzlacha.

      Delete
  8. I did not know it was allowed to go Beit-Din shopping.

    this mr. goldberger obtained a clear psak from one Rabbi and a major gadol that he should wait until his wife is ready to accept the get. He ignored the psak and went to another beith din who issued a different psak. Since when is this permissible? why does the first beith din give in after being disregarded? does their opinion not matter?

    How come Mr. Goldberger left his country without giving a get, and was not easy to locate at first so that he would give a get?

    Who talked this poor gioret into marrying a married man? How come he could date before settling his divorce?

    I think this is a case where a gioret was abused because of her insufficiant knowledge of jewish law...

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    1. I guess it's ok to run away from your wife. Leave her an agunah,not pay for support. Go against what Beis din and your Rav told you. Claim you want to be married to your wife while going out with other women, and this doesn't seem to bother Stan. Maybe it doesn't bother anybody . He never went back to Israel for a din Torah to see how much money he owes, yet he somehow found another Beis din to allow him to get married, and found someone to perform the marriage and this doesn't bother anybody besides Hagoan Rabbi Miller!!? And now that he spoke out against this terrible chillul Hashem ,people are upset against him! Am I understanding this correct. Who was the Beis din that allowed such a disgrace? Who made the marriage? Where are the Rabonnim that allowed such a chillul Hashem to happen? And this is the person I am suppose to help?
      I thank the blog owner for putting up the details of this gruesome case. I am sure Stan agrees with what this person did and expects me to ask mechila from him. Maybe I should, but I'm not convinced he's right.

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    2. It was Rabbi Tzi Dov Abraham - The Berditichever Rav who did the heter and the marriage.

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    3. Thanks, now I understand why they are defending his actions.

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  9. Again Sam posts absolute illogical baloney. The Badatz in Lakewood has ruled clear cut that she was trying to extort money from him and refused the Get. sam I refuse to translate the letter for you because if you can't read Hebrew you should not be arguing and if you can read hebrew you are just making a total fool of yourself. The letter answrs all your taaynes and more.

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  10. I think what this proves and has been proven over and over again that the greatest Rov in Gittin today is Rav Gestetner without a doubt. Besides for his encyclopdic knowledge and razor sharp mind, his lack of negius is beyond reporach. He belongs to the previous doros.

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  11. no Stan, it doesnt prove that. it proves that a limited group, particularly the Eidensohn Family shlita consider him as a Gaon, although this "secret" is not yet nigleh.

    When his teshuvot and piskei din are widely referenced and relied on, then i will accept your claims. And when his decisions are given weight of a previous generation authority , i will accept your second claim.

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  12. Yitzack Oppenheim from Kiryas Joel forced this shudduch on the gerous not even 2 weeks after her previous divorce. They should have discovered this man's history. Now, he washed their hands of the entire ordeal when he is responsible.

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  13. Now to try to understand the teshuva.
    1. She was never classified as a moredes. The ramah clearly states in siman 1, one who marries two wives is put in cherem.
    2. The psak was either issued by fooling the Beis din who issued it, or the Beis din did not follow the ramah.
    The rest of the teshuva is based on the first two points. The question boils down is that he has to divorce one of his wives, the first won't accept a get at this time and she is not a moredes so on what basis does this person remain married to his second wife. The teshuva written lacks basic answers as if you are told by Beis din that you can't remarry, and you fool another Beis din, who do you have to divorce? I'm sure Stan is proud of this teshuva ,so this question is for anybody else. Do we apply this Halacha when someone is told by Beis din not to marry and still does, who does he have to divorce?

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    1. He certainly under no circumstances has to divorce the current (most recent) wife. This is the wife he wants. And she wants him.

      So it is the previous one that needs to be Getted.

      And if you argue that the previous wife refuses to accept a Get, that does not change the equation. He still doesn't have to divorce the most recent one. The current wife can also refuse to accept a Get. So both wives can refuse the Get, and he simply lives with the second.

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    2. Prove it from Halacha standpoint ,not from guesswork .

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    3. I guess what Rav Gestetener says is that polygamy is allowed for ashkenasim, bedi eved. he found a loophole for polygamy, and this blog made itself a duty to spread the information.

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    4. It's obvious. Both wives have the halachic ability to refuse to accept a Get. And if both wives state they refuse to accept a Get, he cannot divorce either of them. So all the second wife has to do, is state she is refusing to accept a Get. (Just as the first wife is doing.)

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    5. indeed! what happens after a heter meah rabbonim - monogamy or polygamy? What happens in the case of moredes that the husband is allowed to remarry according to major poskim even without heter meah rabbonim - monogamy or polygamy? Hint the answer is hidden openly in the Shulchan Aruch!

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    6. The new loophole is that even when those conditions are not met, polygamy is allowed bedi eved.

      And yes, those examples you cited are also polygamy.

      I suppose that Mr. Goldberger would be punishable under Israeli law that does not permit polygamy for jews, as opposed to jewish law...

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  14. to the blog owner,
    I hope you know Rabbi Aeurbach agrees with Reb Shlomo on this. I saw his letter myself. He wrote that letter before this happened.

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    1. question is whether the letter I posted indicates he changed his mind?

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    2. I saw the letter Reb Shlomo wrote. I am sorry I didn't make a copy.in that letter Rabbi Aerbach agrees with Reb Shlomo.
      He is not in Toronto these days. I believe he will be back, but who knows, maybe his latest wife has buyers remorse ,who knows. I still haven't heard any good reason why she's a moredes .let him go back to Israel and go to Beis din. Claiming a lady is a moredes doesn't make her one. Once he deals with the money he owes, then we can talk about it.
      Bottom line, he married when he knew he shouldn't and wants us to support such a decision. I won't.

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  15. goldbergers a father, again!October 22, 2012 at 7:39 AM

    Its only his sevnth time getting married, oh, and to the fifth woman. He's a got a talented way with women..

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    1. Very poor reasons for calling that poor woman a moredes! The guy married her, knocked her up, abandoned her starving and then expected full service when he came to visit once in 3 months? The whole lakewood saw him hanging out doing nothing for months on end...

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  16. Sam October 22, 2012 4:43 AM
    Now to try to understand the teshuva.
    1. She was never classified as a moredes. The ramah clearly states in siman 1, one who marries two wives is put in cherem.

    Sam having difficulties with the hebrew?

    The letter from the lakewood bais din clearly states that she is a moredes and a tsheva from reb moshe is brought from reb moshe feinstein quoting the universal priunciple that rabbeinu gershon could not and was not goyzer in the case of a moredes.

    i am having a real problem understanding how daas torah allows such blatant falsehoods being repeatedly posted by sam, clear motzi sheym ra.

    this is even before we get onto the opinion of adonenu morenu v'rabeinu hagoan gestetner on this matter. what justification is there for posting these blatant falsehoods by sam daas torah?

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    1. At least I understand where you are coming from. Leaving your wife alone without support, then running around with another lady and marrying her against the wishes of Beis din can turn her into a moredes.
      Of course by you, no man can do any wrong, but I'm sure everybody now sees why Reb Shlomo was right.

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  17. This is a classic example of what this "DAAS TORAH" blog and its owner is about.

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  18. This situation has been tragic. The gerous is no longer practising yiddishkite. The cherim was supposed to punish Rabbi Goldberger, but what it did was to alienate the gerous from the community in which all her close ties were severed, while life went on for him at the boat shul. She went back to living as a goy with no support whatsoever from the Toronto frum community. Also, Aron lost his apartment in Israel to wife #1. So now he has no apartment, and no kosher wife. Rabbi Miller has destroyed this poor girl and caused more upheavel in Aron's challenging life. Miller could have handled the situation differently. Did it not occur to him that the gerous didn't understand the situation? And when her own rabbi who converted her - Rabbi Shochet told her he supported her husband, what was she supposed to think? There was never a formal ruling by the Toronto Beis Din about Aron being in cherim. So all the pain and upset was for nothing. Miller should have thought more about his proclaimation. His arrogance has destroyed an innocent person.

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    1. This does not look good on the Toronto Beis Din who converted her. They should have stopped this from happening. Would not they have had to provide a copy of her conversion papers before they were married.... Wouldn`t they want to know who she was marrying... What about her friends she was close with why did they not do anything to stop this.... And what do those rabbis who converted her now think that she went back to her former religion... A lot still needs to be answered to understand the situation better.

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    2. This all started in Monroe with Satmar. A family there was pushing for them to be together. They obviously have different rules.

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  19. This situation is an embarassment for these rabbis and an embarassment for the Toronto community. It should have been handled quietly from the beginning.

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  20. DT please correct previous posting at 4:43 am. it was from stan not sam.

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  21. There was a famous incident (ma'aseh) several decades ago concerning Brisk and Lakewood. A prominent Rav left his wife in Israel, and she did not accept the get. In the USA, a heter of 100 Rabbanim was given, and he remarried. This caused much bitterness, and Brisk were broiges with the rest of the world, including Rav Shach.
    Yet today, it is not even deemed necessary for the heter to be given. Now, I make no judgement on this case, but please clarify the halacha on the heter 100.

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    1. only one difference, the brisker didnt want a Get, in this case the Lakewood BD wrote that she REQUESTED a Get (at least the way i understand it, correct me if i'm wrong).

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  22. Eddie the issue is discussed fully in Otzer HaPoskim

    I have already posted a translation of Rav Moshe Feinstein's views

    http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2012/07/igros-moshe-if-wife-refuses-get-can.html

    there is also a teshuva of Rav Sternbuch

    seach for the word heter

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    1. Rav Sternbuch' teshuva is here

      http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2012/03/rav-sternbuchmoredes-went-to-civil.html

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    2. It seems from these Teshuvos that RMF ztl allows remarriage even without Heter 100, if the heter isn't available, whereas R Shternbuch shlita requires the heter 100 in this case.
      The famous case of Brisk/Lakewood, was as far as I know a halachic dispute.

      ~~~~~~~

      On a totally different track, does anyone know of any halachic sources regarding changing one's family name if it is a nochri name? By nochri, I mean European and Mizrachi names which are not of Jewish source? When I made Aliyah, I changed my nochri name to a Hebrew one. It seems to me that using a goyishe name is akin to dressing in a goyisher mode.

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  23. Wife #1 doesnt need to get now, for 2 years until after her baby was born when she can re-marry. So she is enjoying torchering Rabbi Goldberger. She'll take the get after the 2 years, or if she becomes involved with another man. Does anyone know this lady's history? Apparently her previous ex had trouble with her also.

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    1. Jacob, this is wife 6 and 7, does anybody know if he's still living together with his new wife in toronto?

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    2. He is in Lakewood currently by himself. Word is out that they are seperated. It would not be surprising if they got divorced as she is no longer practising Judaism.

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    3. I, With my own eyes saw him several times over sukkos in toronto.

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  24. If the new wife now wants a get and he refuses to give one - can she claim the marriage was null and void, since it was polygamous?

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  25. Reb Aron has so much passion and dedication to Hashem and His Torah. It's a shame he keeps falling for these flighty women. He's a genius and knows more than Shlomo Miller!

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  26. Aaron is in Lakewood for a family simcha. He visited me in Monsey on Friday, again, he was here for a family Simcha. I spoke to his wife in Toronto and she seemed happy. Things are coming along, but it is great struggle. Rabbi Shochet the head of the Toronto Beth Din has been understanding in this and does not consider Aharon to be in Cherem, until a proper Beth Din is assembled and hears testimony, if there is any. As I stated in my letter published here, four rabbis heads of Beth Dins in Gittin have ruled that Aharon is not in Cherem. Two of them have extensive experience in this case. I was involved in a case in Europe not long ago where there was also a rabbi who got angry at someone and made him flee the community. The next day, a tragedy occurred in that community. Some rabbis mean well but they do the wrong things. It is very hard to be a rabbi of a large community, and sometimes mistakes are made. I don't pretend to judge this case, but four rabbis against one is something to think about before you destroy people's yiddishkeit and hopes.

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    1. I don't think you are helping this gioret by upholding this marriage. She would be best advised to flee far, far away from a person like this Ahron goldberger.

      By the way - is this the same Ahron goldberger who was condemned for child abuse?

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    2. In french, there is a saying "Ne touche pas la merde, ça éclabousse" - "don't touch dirt or you will get dirty".

      I don't think it is a good idea to support Aaron Goldberger in any way, shape, or form after all I read about him.

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  27. I have been involved in this case for a long time and spoken to many people about it, but you have opinions based on other things. I can't argue with that.
    As far as the child abuse, as I understand it, nobody considers him a problem of that nature. One person made a claim, but it has been clearly discredited, when the daughter of the man who made the claim eventually married Aharon. The man claimed that Aharon molested this woman's children. Obviously, it was not true. And indeed, the greatest American Rosh Yeshiva fought tooth and nail to defend Aharon, and as I say, eventually, everyone accepted that the charge was false. This took place years ago, and I was not personally involved in the case then, but this is what I understand happened.
    Life is not an easy street for everybody. Aharon had a terribly hard life, but he did not collapse or forget his obligations. I defend him, and others who get to know him are very strong supporters. Is he perfect? I am not, and maybe you are, so we will leave it at that.

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    1. we have seen "the greatest american roshei Yeshiva" defend true child molesters, and we have seen women returning to abusive husbands even though they molested their children. Both your argument might by indices, but they are not proof.

      The picture that emerges of this person is more than shady.

      I do not understand the haste in remarrying, especially if it was just two weeks after the new wife's (gioret's) divorce.

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    2. This girl got under the spell of Satmar who arranged this shidduch. In fact, this girls ties were already severing in the Toronto community after she became chaddisishe after her first marriage that was an innocent mistake, though not as dramatic as this one. There are very judgmental people in Toronto. And unfortunately the people who arranged the shidduch washed their hands of it after the problems came out.

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    3. With his history he had to grab this girl who was completely fresh and new who would not have known his past. Plus she is many years younger. Its not easy for a man well into his 50's to marry someone of child bearing age.

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    4. I researches & read a bit about Aaron Goldberger's past (and also posted some material here that has not yet passed the blog owner's control). Boy, should he grab the occasion as soon as he finds someone willing to marry him!

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  28. Can someone translate or write a brief summary of the situation. It's seems there are multiple issues here.

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    1. Rav knöpfler:

      mr. Goldberger left his wife Anna Goldberger in Israel without giving her a get and moved to the US. The agunah turned to the Rabbanim who had some difficulty in locating Mr. Goldberger, but eventually they did. They convinced him of giving a get. He agreed.

      Now Anna goldberger claimed money for years of child-support he did not pay and refused to accept the get until he paid. He agreed to pay $15'000, but she still refused to get and claimed 5000$ more He paid, she still refused and demanded 5000$ more. this went on a few times (it does not state which sum he paid in the end). In the end, he gave his flat in Israel to her and she moved it, but she still refuses to accept the get.

      Meanwhile, Mr. goldberger wanted to marry a Gioret from toronto. He asked Rav Knöpfler whether he could. The answer was no, wait till your ex accepts her get. Rav Auerbach was consulted and gave the same answer.

      Not satisfied with theis answer, mr. Goldberger went to a Beith din in Monsey (behind the back of the first beith din). the new beith din permitted him to remarry. A rabbi married Mr. Goldberger and the gioret (although Mr. goldberger is officially still married to the previous wife).

      That's this letter, more or less.

      A Toronto Rabbi, Avigdor Miller, said this was not possible and somehow put Mr. Goldberger (and his new wife?) in herem.

      Rav Gestetener says that a husband who marries a second wife cannot be forced to divorce her, and even less in the case where he deposited a get, but the get was not accepted. Therefore it was perfectly legitimate for Mr. goldberger to contract the new marriage, even without heter Meah Rabbanim.

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    2. What does Rav Shternach paskin in such a case. Where Beis din tells him he can't get married, runs to another Beis din, gets a heter based on that she is a moredes, though I have not seen why,then that same Beis din marries him off to a geyores who probably didn't know he's a married man and now has two wives to deal with. Do I hear a reality show. This stuff is so outrageous that you couldn't make it up. Now we have a machlokes between the Rabonim whether he has to divorce wife number ? Or the other one. Maybe the Beis din who allowed him to remarry raise enough money to pay her to take the get, or the one who talked her into marrying a married man. Here is clearly a case where someone messed up big time and I would like to see them take responsibility.

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    3. Its amazing that the people directly responsible for this have all ran away and refused to take responsibility, and left the mess to be delt with by rabbis who did not even know this couple before. Why in the world would the people who made the shidduch push it so hard when they barely knew Aron or the Geyorus? And after their "investigations" into Aron, why did it not come out that he was still married and had all these other issues? I wonder what the fee was that was paid - my guess is that was the big motivator to see these 2 get married.

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  29. Once again Sam and Indeed! write here as if we are dealing with a soap opera which obviously the world they seem so familiar with but they can't argue the facts nor the halocho.

    Exactly in whci siman in shulchan oruch does it state that you have to wait until the wrath and fury of a fake agunah cools down? There is no such halocho - frankly while i very much respect this lakewood bais din for having the honesty to publish a detailed explanation which cam e accross as very objective, they erred obviously - there is no requirement to wait. As great as Rav Shmuel Auerbach is, he is a rosh yeshiva not a posek and certainly not a dayan.

    They also clearly paskened that the fake agunah is just a moredes - and they quoted the psak of rav moshe feinstein who is the furtherest from a kanoi that you can find, especially with regards to gittin, that there is no need for a get. Yet the husband wrote a Get before he remarried. These are the facts that are relevant, not how many times he was married, not whether you like him or not.

    I find it repulsive that when a bais din makes a mistake, possibly well intentioned but an obvious mistake notheless, the husband cannot get this mistake corrected. This is not shopping for kulahs at all, a mistake is a mistake and so far we have seen no halachik grounds for making the husband wait.

    Regarding child support, I understand he has a son. how old is the son? Why has the wife got custody? Obviously our feminists here are up in arms but without the facts and just their repeated vinbishe emotional outrage, one cannot comment.

    The only thing that bothers me is that a woman normally has to wait 3 months after a marriage to re-enter another marriage. What are the circumstances there.

    Frankly I am not sure what is worse, arguing with ignoramuses who are full of vibishe fury and emotion or with tzaddok who did on occassion know what he was tsalking about but distorted facts to suit himself.

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  30. PS: Rav sternbuch held in a case where a wife went to arko'oys and was a moredes that a get had to posted at bais din. So I presume in this goldberger case via kal ve'chomer where she has not gone to arko'oys that a get would need to be placed in bais din and this is what my understanding r goldberger did. however the question on rav Sternbuch is where is a source for his chumrah of placing a get in bais din if the woman is a moredes since in this case rabbeinu gershom was not goyzer by a moredes? is it the chassam sofer and what about the 100 signatures, this i forgot.does he also require

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    1. I suppose Rav Sternbuch is not frum enough (for you)!

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  31. To the people who comment that he owes her years of child support.....their baby is barely 1 year old. Plus, he was supporting her 3 other kids from a previous marriage. This lady has his apartment now plus her own that she rents for $1500 a month. She is also getting funds from the Israeli government so she is hardly broke and starving. People need to get their facts straight before they judge.

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  32. Indeed! he is obviously too frum for you. It is not a question of frjumkiet but bending over too much for these rashantas!

    answer the facts and halochos in my posting instead of laughable remarks.

    the fact that you resort to such stupidity shows you can't answer. as for your obvious distortions not extrapolations from real agunahs they belong in the BDA and arko'oys which is the laws the BDA invariably use anyway.

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  33. To Rabbi Eidensohn
    Is there anything wrong beis din hopping.If one beis din rules one way, should another beis din rule different just to make the defendant happy? Are there no repercussions for doing that. Here is a similar story, I do not vouch for any of the details though, What does it mean he was granted a divorce?
    Mati Caspi convicted of bigamy
    Mati Caspi, one of Israel's leading singers and composers, was convicted of bigamy yesterday by Judge Daniel Be'eri in the Tel Aviv Magistrate's Court.
    By Michal Palti and Zvi Harel | Feb.06, 2002 | 12:00 AM

    http://www.haaretz.com/culture/arts-leisure/mati-caspi-convicted-of-bigamy-1.53714

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    1. anyway, that would not be the first time Ahron goldberger would go Beith din hopping. He did it in 1990 with his first divorce too.

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    2. Wow, I just googled his name. This guy has some history, and not a good one. If anybody had any question that Reb Shlomo was right should read up about him. Go to his Facebook page also. He's married seven times and he's interested in women. Stay away from him.
      Again, how did this Monsey Beis din give him a heter to get married is beyond words.

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    3. 7 marriages, 13 children and counting, according to his facebook page... and still an eternal student who just graduated 2011 from ma'alot ha torah...

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    4. That's 13 and a half children. The new wife is expecting.

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    5. There are typically two reasons cited for not asking another posek after you received an answer from the first 1) Asking a posek a question implies that you are taking an oath to abide by what he says - as long as it is not a blatant error -dvar mishna. 2) It is disrespectful to the first beis din.

      Thus if a person tells posek 1 I just want your opinion - then he is not bound by it 2 If the second beis din is aware what the first one says but feels that it is erroneous then if they rule then their opinion can be followed. However according to both views a second beis din that did not know that the issue had already been poskened - can not produce a useable psak.

      The other scenario is if a person knows how the beis din has ruled in the passed and he deliberately chooses the beis din that gives him the psak he wants - that is problematic but is not wrong and the psak is still valid.

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  34. So basically from the extremely serius charge of violation of halocho made against rav gestetner by the whole of toronto plus a cheirem put someone innnocent we are now down to far more trivial charges of when a bais din mistakenly invents a halocho reqyuiring a husband to wait until his wife cools down is it permissable to have the correct halocho applied by a second bais din.

    Shame on you Sam. You made very serious but ultimately pie in the sky allegations against rav gestetner previously which you have been totally unable to back up.

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  35. Sam carries on with his emotional garbage without showing us one drop of a reason why he should not. he has no halachic sources just lashon horo and hatred. he is obviously connected to the case or at the very least justifiying the dictatorship of the toronto self appointed religious police.

    How did Shlomo Hamelech take so many wives and Dovid and they are considered our heroes and i know about the le'sheym shomayim and political reasons stuff? How about yaakov ovinu.

    Sam keep out of other people's business. I wonder if you are such a holy jew as you would like us to think?

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    1. Sam is probably Rav Miller's son who created many problems for Aron and his wife.

      Delete
    2. If you approve of polygamy, fine, but normative ashkenazy judaism has ruled it out 1000 years ago. So if yo insist on having 1000 wives like shlomo hamelech, you are definitely outside the realm of ashkenazy halacha in our time.

      The torah explicitly forbids having an affair with a married woman. So the fact that David haMelech did it does not mean it was allowed.

      Aron Goldberger was put in Cherem, or shunned, as soon as 1990 by a London and a Lakewood beith din, because he refused to grant a get to the wife he had back then. He also refused to pay child support for the six children he had back then. In the civil court proceedings from that time, he states that he has never earned money at age 32, and that his father-in-law is supposed to provide for his six children.

      Any Ketuba states explicitly that the groom promises to support his future children. Jewish law says that a man who fails to support his family is not a man. How can a person with such a background be considered g-d fearing?

      His present actions are so coherent with his actions 20 years ago that it is not easy to believe he did t'shuva.

      I do suppose he is intelligent, he might even learn easily, but obviously, he uses his brains in the wrong way.

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  36. If Ahron had the money for lawyers, he never would have had these problems in his past and present. All his wives were bipolar, and the one causing all the trouble in Israel has a history of her own with how she treated her 2 prior ex husbands. The community created these problems for Ahron. If someone would step up to the plate and hire him an attorney that woman would be forced to accept the get. She's acting like this because she can get away with it. And no one is helping.

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    1. Actually, back in 1990, ahron raised over 100'000$ for lawyers, but at the same time, he claimed he had not revenues what so ever (to pay child support) it's all in the court papers.

      this is one reason why I think he is a more than dubious caracter: the community has to give tzadaka for his trials and appelas, but he can not raise money to give his own children bread to eat?

      the beith Din orders him to give a get and pay child support, yet he refuses to do so and still claims to be a very frum yid?

      There are just things that don't fit tougether.

      "All his wives were bipolar"
      so why, after having escaped from the first "bipolar" wife, did he marry "bipolar" wives nr, 2, 3, 4, etc? I think he has a very, very manipulative character (it says so in some court papers and Rabbis who had to do with him say the same)... therefore, I give at least as much credibility to his wives as to him.

      Look at the shiurim he has on his facebook site: he says that the human being has to submit to hashem's will, yet he never bowed to the will of a beith din. Is there any congruence between his deeds and what he preaches? None!

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    2. Reb Goldberger has a strong support network worldwide, just unfortunately not in his wife's city Toronto. On 4 continents he had run Shuls, given shirum (he has over 200 on chol Haloshan website), and contributed so much to helping people in need of chizack. If his wife would agree to moving to Boro Park or Monsey they would have a beautiful life without all of Shlomo Millers hate and influence.

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    3. BH we have Rabonim that will stand up to what's right. Let him stay in Monsey where he can get the beis din to do what he wants. In Toronto, if you decide to make up your own halacha or go against what is normal, like running away from your wife and marrying another, you will be shunned. I guess in Monsey it's OK. He won't be able to collect the thousands of dollars he needs, so why bother coming back.
      anyways, here is a nice read between him and a judge,
      http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?xmldoc=19931284837FSupp447_11198.xml&docbase=CSLWAR2-1986-2006

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    4. Well, it looks to me as if he used his "frum uniform" to cater to a non-frum (kiruv?) audience. Now I don't know if a person who was put in cherem at least twice by different batey din, who was married seven times, who repeatedly refused to pay child support, who was indicted or convicted for several offenses should be the ideal shaliach to represent "torah-true judaism" to outsiders...

      But come to think of it, there are more than one "out-of-town-kiruv-workers" who went out of town because they had to...


      by the way: I think it is Kol halashon...

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    5. Goldberger did win the dismisal of the indictment

      "For the reasons stated below, Goldberger's motion to suppress is granted, however, the government will be afforded the opportunity to demonstrate an independent basis for its prosecution, failing which, the single count indictment will be dismissed."

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  37. Sam is an utter disgrace. He cannot even post the so-called siruv against Goldberger but just carries on with his personalk attacks. It is pretty clear that the lakewood bais din sees from a halachik point of view that he is allowed to hsave remarried and it invented some cooling down period for the wife which is its own artifical creation. they guy never broke the cheirem of rabeinu gershom because it doesn't apply here since wife is a moredes and this is clear from the lakewood bais din's psak.

    I cannot see any justification for the hate and filth spewed here by Sam which is baseless. He should admit his ties in this case because it is clear that he is not objective and because he can't argue with the facts resorts to repeating over and over again how Toronto won't tolerate someone who didn't even break any halocho as if the people there are such big tzaddikim or something.

    There is no cheirem on the man and Sam et al.s protests are based on some other emotive vitriol which they have yet to provide any logical expalanation for.

    If the man owes his wife money as they claim let her be mazmin him to an objective bais din which clearly in his case won't be found on Canadian shores. She certainly cannot prevent him from moving on with his life and neither can the pathetic Sam.

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  38. A lawyer has been appointed recently in Israel to handle the morados. The truth will come out when her history is spewed all over these blogs. This woman not only stole Ahrons apartment, she is also cheating the welfare system by not reporting her windfall from Rabbi Goldberger. She is greedy and all this will backfire. Ahron should go after his kid she is not well enough to look after him. Just ask the neighbors!

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    Replies
    1. not such a good idea. he will earn himself a condemnation for polygamy...

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  39. After hearing about this case I will no longer be supporting any Toronto institutions. This place is gehenim to spill the blood of a geyorus and mistreat a great Torah scholar.

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  40. I don't think Toronto will miss any of you tzedakah. This is one of the wealthiest Jewish communities in the world and they have plenty of donors tI fund everything from schools to the halocaust museum. Rav Miller controls these people, and it is well known that the people who have turned their backs against Rabbi Goldberger did it out of their own financial interests....a good example is Bobov, who gets huge checks every month from the establishment. It's a very corrupt system.

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    1. Yes, that's how a cherem works, in general. In this sense, the whole "jewish system" is corrupt, since financial interests are more or less the only means of exerting pressure...

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    2. No, they turned their backs against goldberger because of his background and rap sheet. Con men are not accepted here in Toronto, and if you know him, tell him the people here did a very comprehensive review of him. Hint, ask Rav Aeurbach what he thinks of him.

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    3. Sam you are a disgrace to be bashing someone you don't even know. Rav Goldberger has a nice following in Thornhill and at the shul he attends. He learns with so many at the boat shul and and is called upon for Halacha questions by other rabbis in town, and get most alieas to the Torah. Do you have these honors? Are you even Jewish? The filth coming from your mouth would make me think not.

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    4. intelligence and a bad & somewhat unstable character can well cohabit in one person...

      Delete

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