Aaron commented to "EJF - attracting non-Jews to proselytize - is permitted...":
Roni/R Tropper; I want to ask you , can you tell me with the full truth ,that all the Rabonim associated with the EJF including the beautiful dais that was shown at the confrence last week,are aware that the purpose of EJF is to be megayer these goyim in an intermarried couple? I have strong reason to beleive that they are being told one thing and the EJF is doing something else?
Michal bas Avraham commented to "EJF - attracting non-Jews to proselytize - is permitted...":
Aharon,
You are right they are not being told that the organization is there to convert intermarrieds. They are being told that they are trying to raise the standards of conversion. Last Shabbos, I was at someone's house and the husband told me three men in his kollel took some course to be on their baytai din. This is what they were told. Also, the RCA standards are actually higher. They know who is on their baytai din, real rabbis who have done conversions but, not the one before them. Whereas now we see about EJF.
Roni,
The EJF doesn't provide mentoring. They make you bring them your shul rabbi. They ask him to find you a mentor. They also ask him to "watch your attendance in shul." This is ridiculous. Anyone can go to shul and go home to watch TV. However, I've heard this from rabbis. They say, you have to live in my area so I can make sure you go to shul every week. Also, what about Brooklyn? In Brooklyn, a woman who goes to shul is like a prostitute that's how UNacceptable it is to go to shul.
I have blogged about EJF and I will do it again. They are this organization that just formed itself and run around with their ego telling everyone they better and have higher standards. Actually, they don't.
Due to the timing (the eve of tisha b'av) I will not respond in detail. Obviously i am not the spokesperson for the organization; i'm an outside that likes the idea of theprganization and followed what happens in many other rabbinic circles.
ReplyDeleteGerut is a hard task no matter how you will slice it. Our Rabbis already acknowledged it strongly in the talmud.
1) I can assure you that the Rabbis who attend the conferences are well aware of the activities of the organization and it's goal.
2) I can assure you that despite the ongoing remarks by people in this website, EJF is partially responsible for a change in thought in the masses that there cannot just be go to the rabbi and get a conversion certificate without any commitment to keep shabbat, kashrut, and tahrat hamishpacha. You can argue with this or that method, but the fact remains that they will not convert someone without a commitment to keep shabbat kashrut and taharat hamishpacha that so many "rabbis" and dayanim will do with the blink of an eye. I know for a fact how they worked hard to convert someone until a commitment was reached. It is not only that they kknow the fellow goes to a synagogue; they do get to know and interact with the prospect and make the decision accordingly.
NOw let's hope that the response sdo not echoe the reason for tisha bav but the solutionto get out of it!
Roni/Tropper even manages to slip in the twisted implication that proselytization may even be regarded as a legitimate "method" to proselytize to millions intermarrieds to convert EJF-style when he states: "You can argue with this or that method" as if mass proselytization to potential millions is "the same" as arguing that "all" converts "must" submit to EJF's harsh demands, which they will never do, given the realities of this world with many streams of Orthodox and Haredi Judaism when most people realize that while Religious Zionism and Chasidism are both forms of Orthodox Judaism, they will never see eye to eye on matters of Halacha, gerus included, yet what Tropper and Rav Eisenstein are trying to do is to hammer away at trying to steamroller a square peg into a round hole and they wonder why they are confronted with reality tests with each one of their new self-destructive decrees, forged letters, ambushes and demands that don't do anyone any good when there could and should be more more respect and less sinas chinam for anything that looks to them like Modern Orthodoxy, Religious Zionisn or Haredi moderation of any sort. Shame on them for not getting the message of the Nine Days and Tisha Be'Av.
ReplyDeleteRoni [...] All while claiming that he does "not" speak for EJF (haha very good joke) when he sweats blood and tears to defend Tropper and EJF at all costs, [...]
ReplyDeleteTake his reply here as an example. A simple clear-cut question is asked and and reinforced in this post: "EJF - Do rabbis know it converts mixed couples?" and it could easily be answred yes or no actually, but Roni/Tropper cunningly contrives an answer using the very thing that is known and admitted that EJF does at its concerts with the rabbis, as this post makes clear: "...they are not being told that the organization is there to convert intermarrieds. They are being told that they are trying to raise the standards of conversion..." yet Roni/Tropper thinks that noone is watching him [...] and yet again claims that "because" the rabbis call for higher standards in conversion, "therefore" they must somehow or other "also agree" with EJF's other mandate (not even tooted at the rabbinical concerts) to reach out to and proselytize millions of gentiles hitched to Jews with EJF-style haredi conversions.
As Roni/Tropper ingeniously claims here: "I can assure you that the Rabbis who attend the conferences are well aware of the activities of the organization and it's goal".
Note the use of the word "goal" in the singular and not goalS as is well-known that EJF has MORE than one goal, it has at least TWO goals, [...] to talk and try for higher conversion standards, just a pseudonym for imposing the harshest and toughest levels of Halacha (chumras) when there are in reality more lenient and accepted views (kullas) -- and there always kullas and chumras and in fact the din is that it is koach dehetera adif, the rulings of those Halachic decisors who are lenient are preferable, but of course this would have to take place in a mature Halachic discussion NOT in the[...] There always is EJF's OTHER goal that it DOES not mention in public to the rabbis at its concerts about it's controversial outreach to intermarried couples that it wants to do by the millions, and Roni/Tropper NEVER assnwers why that subject is NEVER openly disscussed or revealed, yet Roni/Tropper wants us to accept that the raabbis know the inner workings of EJF when at the outset he says that he does not speak for EJF. So which is it? By now, all here know that poster Roni/Tropper is the lifeblood and spokesman for EJF much. much better than the new "Rabbi Tropper blog" where Tropper spends all his time talking to himself, with more pre-scripted questions put to him than Obama at a news conference. ...
Roni/Tropper even manages to slip in the twisted implication that proselytization may even be regarded as a legitimate "method" to proselytize to millions intermarrieds to convert EJF-style when he states: "You can argue with this or that method" as if mass proselytization to potential millions is "the same" as arguing that "all" converts "must" submit to EJF's harsh demands, which they will never do, given the realities of this world with many streams of Orthodox and Haredi Judaism when most people realize that while Religious Zionism and Chasidism are both forms of Orthodox Judaism, they will never see eye to eye on matters of Halacha, gerus included, [...]
ReplyDeletein response to the repetitive chollent menu:
ReplyDelete1) EJf does not proselytize to MILLIONS of goyim; they do not intend to convert millions of goyim. They have not converted nearly as many a any of the buddies of the chollent maker's rabbis whom RAp enables them to bring erev and gotyim to klal yisroel, (their goal is to help those intermarried couples who are interestd to convert halachikally, a rather small amount of couples are entitled for that at the of the process),
2) And yes, the other goal is: the minimization of fake conversions by fake rabbis who handily convert hundreds and thousands of converts who are not interestd in the least bit to keek shabbos, kashrut, taharat hamishpacha,
3) It would be mre productive for this blog and it's owner if they actuallyy got to talk with some of the Rabbis who actually part of the Batey that are * officially* accepted by EJf and ask them what standards they think the are raising by their conversions? It is very easy for someone here to have a name in blog and state whatever they want. Come and talk to some of the rabbis who actually participate and work in conjunction with the EJf and you will find out what you do not talk about and what the Bdatz acknowledged in one of it's letters that there are tikkunim in the gerut area. Talk to one of the Rabbis who signed on the letter against the Rabbi in Flatbush about his practices and ask them what they think of his practices and they think of the EJf's batey Dinim. Then come back with their name tha they said X Y and Z.
At the end the Batey Dinim under EJF will NOT convert until and unless the fellow has shown some commitment to live a life in accordance to shulchan oruch.
It is interesting that the owbner of this blog finds itlegitimate to scoff at a practice not to convert someone who does not live near a shul. AS if the sarcastic note about teh ability of the fellow to watch Tv makes it better when the fellow does not attend shul at all and goes to the movies and malls and his business. How silly is it not to recognize what serious Posskim and Rabbonim do, that in order to convert people whom we have serious cncerns about the sincerity that we see the fellow and follow is commitment to yiddishkeyt by having close contanct with him by his going to shul and interacting with the man and his general conduct.
It is interesting that the owner of this blog just finds it worthy to log this as a chissaron of EJF. Npo wonder, NO ONE in the real RAbbinic world and the respected posskim likke Rav Reuven are ever more supportiuve to EJf and do not listen to the critics of DT as he posts real pros (like not converting someone who does not come to shul, someone whom we cannot follow up etc.) as a chissaronn!
The more you post these posts; the more you do not listen to people who LIVE OUT THERE and tell you what the other side is and what they are METAKEN you are going to be what you are: a person who seems not to be objective about what EJF is real about and a person who will use anything and everything to criticize them.
Sadly Roni/Tropper's latest post of July 29, 2009 4:02 PM reveals yet again how he cannot answer a simple question yet via his verbiage he makes it sound that he has "answered" by twisting words when nothing of the sort was heard from him. He is only fooling himslef when he imgaines that people cannot see through his word games and jumping to conclusion with NO regard to the rules of simple logic and reasoning.
ReplyDeleteAgain, to repeat, as if to an elementary class that needs remedial help, the basic straightforward question here is: "EJF - Do rabbis know it converts mixed couples?" It's basically a yes or no answer, but Roni in spite of two devious posts has still not answered that straightforward question while making it "seem" that he is "dealing with it" when he is blatantly avoiding it by carrying on about how certain batei prefer EJF to others (ok, so they like brand x and not brand y, they live in a democracy that allows for choice, unlike Tropper's "single variety" approach) and then Roni/Tropper even throws in a line that: "And yes, the other goal is: the minimization of fake conversions by fake rabbis" when that was NOT the issue but rather what about the rabbis who attend EJF concerts, do they know that EJF has a second agenda concocted by Tropper, uncle Tom Kaplan and his nephew previously to do just that, as stated here by poster Michal bas Avraham: "You are right they are not being told that the organization is there to convert intermarrieds. They are being told that they are trying to raise the standards of conversion."
Yet Roni/Tropper drones on and on about how great EJF is as an enforcer of "higher standards" and that batei din love them mightily all at the expense of keeping on knocking the rabbi in Flatbush who is just a good strawman and punching bag and the perfect red herring excuse for Tropper and EJF to get a free pass for proselytization (proven multiple times from EJF's own paid PR and infomercials on the web especially) to any and all gentiles hitched to Jews to get EJF style conversions to be under Tropper's personal control.
Next time, try answering the question instead of telling the world how great you are and how rotten everyone else not joined to you is.
As a simple uninvolved bystander, I am totally confused by this whole back-and-forth.
ReplyDeleteIf the goal is to eliminate conversions without kabbalas ol, they are fighting the Reform & Conservative movements, a real bracha l'vatala.
If they are fighting Orthodox rabbis who they feel are doing bad conversions, the way would be to expose them as not really being Orthodox, not to disenfranchise the honest nebech caught in the middle.
Either way, the approach of torturing sincere wanna-be converts seems to be at best a chilul Hashem and a poor example of sh'yehai shem shamayim misahev.
Yossi Ginzberg
Regardless of whether one agrees with the EJF agenda or not. Any Rabbi who puts his name to something is responsible for the content therein. Rabbis who endorse or take part in EJF events are responsible for knowing the agenda of EJF and what EJF does and does not do. If they do not do their due diligence the fault is their own and not EJF's.
ReplyDeleteAgain, Roni AKA Tropper repeats himself saying he is trying to fix the geirus business (still cannot stop himself from mentioning the rav from Flatbush, maybe different medication will do) when he is really involved in a political fight again his hated Modern orthodox (and the Slifkin followers...).
ReplyDeleteHis “higher standards”/frummkeit are only exists as antidote to Modern orthodox lifestyle otherwise [...]
Roni/Tropper continues to mention the rabbis who allegedly signed an English letter against rav Bomzer while it was revealed on this blog that Tropper/Roni forged their signatures.
Actually in some cases Rav bomzer has higher standards than EJF, for example he requires from his convert to separate for 3 months and Tropper/Roni does not.
Michal raises a good points that RCA has real rabbis (with shul, semicha, or teaching) while the EJF pays some avrecheim from nowhere to serve as beis din.
BTW Tropper, could you share with us who are the rabbis on your own Monsey beis-din after r’ Rabinovitch left you.
"Any Rabbi who puts his name to something is responsible for the content therein. Rabbis who endorse or take part in EJF events are responsible for knowing the agenda of EJF and what EJF does and does not do. If they do not do their due diligence the fault is their own and not EJF's".
ReplyDeleteRoni: Exactly! And it is precisely becauseof this logic, that the chazakah is that they DID their due diligince (and someone by Aharon, or Todross or Betzalel or whatever cannot come to state otherwise unless he *proves* with the name of the rabbi and fellow who claims that they did not know).
It is obvious for anyone that attends the halachik conferences of the EJF that this is part of their halachik discussion!
How silly can this get, when one needs to criticize EJf and look for all this naarishkeyt to claim that the rabbis do not know that EJf converts people who are inermarried.
After all this is written BLACK ON WHITE ON THEIR WEBSITE!
MT, r
ReplyDeleteListen: 1) Yes, the hundredsof Rabbis, headed by HaRav Reuven hold that EJf is fixing the fake gerut, one of which is performed by the flatbush rabbi,
2) The higher standards consists of the covnert commit to keep shbbat (like not driving on the sabbath), keeping kosher (like not eating in trefe restaurants and keeping family purity laws on it's basic requirements. This is something that Faltbush Rabbi does NOT ask from every one. There are many many that he does not ask. I know too many.
3) All of sudden you cite the stringency vof 3 months (you would be the first one to scream the "machmir" and "kanoy" for asking this. but forget hypochrisy you are not to feaful of distancing from it). The Rabib of faltbush does not care if in many instances if the fellow will drive on shabbat, work on shabbat, now you tell tha the asks for 3 months?
In any event: EJF Batey dinim too ask for the 3 month period!
4) I do not know of the new invention of this blog that the batey dinim of EJf have averechim to seve as Batey dinim! It is a lie that repeated often is used as gospel truth! Tell me which Batey dibnim that is recorded at the website contain people who do not have SMicha? But lumping and making a chollent from hearing a hear say about having avrechem learn hilchos gerut becoming a fact that the batey dinim are not miussmachim. This is becoming pathetic, looking for something....
5) no one forged anyone's signatures. Itt is all a bobbeh mayssoh by this blog. The letter is there. They all signed. And two rabbonim clarified clearly what was the intent of their signing. All of them affirmed that the rabbi of flatbush does many gerut without any kabblaat hamtiavot. They allwarned messadrey kiddushin not to be messader kiddushin of those which did not have kabbalat mitzvot! cholents do not change the facts for those who have a clear and unconfused head.
6) Te fact that you and Rap and the owner of this blog will not be able swallow is: that A LARGE GROUP OF RABBONIM AFFILIATE WITH EJF AND THE REASON IS: BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT THERE ARE FAKE BATEY DINIM AND THEY WANT TO STOP THEIR DAMAGES.
Roni wrote:
ReplyDelete5) no one forged anyone's signatures. Itt is all a bobbeh mayssoh by this blog. The letter is there. They all signed. And two rabbonim clarified clearly what was the intent of their signing. All of them affirmed that the rabbi of flatbush does many gerut without any kabblaat hamtiavot. They allwarned messadrey kiddushin not to be messader kiddushin of those which did not have kabbalat mitzvot! cholents do not change the facts for those who have a clear and unconfused head.
===============
Roni in order to stop these assertions why don't you just send me the Hebrew original to post?
I do not have to stop any assertions. Hamotzi mechaveroy olov haraayah! I know some of the people who signed. THey signed on this. The fact there are known to those who are nivovled (as we had some relative of uncle tom).
ReplyDelete?Even Rabbis who needed to clarify the meaning of their signatures did not say it was "forged". They explaine dwhat they signed on! and that is what counts: the *tochen* of what is written not whether or not the stamp is upside down! The *tochen* and cntent of the letter state the problem that needed so many rabbis courage not to be afraid of people and blogs and they wrote what they felt. They did not write about the P word. They wrote that we have fake gerut! *this* is the real concern!
Roni,
ReplyDeleteYou once asked me about defending my Rabbi... well watch because here it comes.
MT said:
Actually in some cases Rav bomzer has higher standards than EJF, for example he requires from his convert to separate for 3 months and Tropper/Roni does not.
This statement, as it is written is false and misleading. R' Eisenstein is listed as the EJF beit din of Jerusalem, and I know for a fact that he requires the candidates agreement to this before he will start the process with them.
Furthermore if the couple if neither in a couple is Jewish, he requires them to separate before the process will begin, and remain so until after both have individually completed their geirut.
Now if you are telling me that EJF/Tropper holds different and more lenient standards than the B"D listed as their Jerusalem B"D and some of the Rabbis they claim as endorsers... please send me your evidence and I will gladly pass it on to R' Eisenstein to see what he makes of it.
Essentially, it appears to me that this is becoming a witch hunt. Anything we label as EJF/Tropper is bad. Any discussion of proselytization even things far more egregious then what EJF is accused of doing, ultimately degenerate into a bash R' Tropper fest.
If you want to debate the halachic validity of what EJF does, I am game. However these accusations without proof. The attempt to tie, however flimisly EJF/Tropper into any bad geirus situation really is quite disgusting and unbecoming of a Jew.
Again Tropper you lie amd mislead!
ReplyDeleteThe higher standards consists of the covnert commit to keep shbbat
Every Orthodox rav who convert people demands Shabbos, kashrus and taharat hamishpacha. No one accept you set up a spy network to spy on converts if they follow Modern orthodox lifestyle.
If you only care about demand Shabbos, kashrus and taharat hamishpacha o why did revoke conversion for people who sometime neglect to cover their or wear pants or want to go to college.
any event: EJF Batey dinim too ask for the 3 month period!
You again mislead/lie you only request it for people who do not live together but if they live together you do not ask
that the batey dinim of EJf have averechim to seve as Batey dinim!
So why do you pay those avrechim to study hilchis giyur ? and who is replace rabinovitz in ur kangaroo beis din
They allwarned messadrey kiddushin not to be messader kiddushin of those which did not have kabbalat mitzvoth”
That a big change from what you forges on the letter, before it was ALL his converts now only who do not keep kababal mitzvos.
so just like your converts it is case by case issue
that A LARGE GROUP OF RABBONIM AFFILIATE WITH EJF AND
If they affiliate with you why they do not give haskama (no, photos with rabbis together do consist haskama)
Mekubal if you will look at the brochure for the Phoenix Conference of Summer 2007 it says the following:
ReplyDelete"*Please note that two rooms are available for those who want to comply with the Jewish law that a couple should not stay in the same room before a halachic wedding ceremony."
Mekubal,
ReplyDeleteI wanted to send you some information about people who were converted by Tropper himself and Rabinovitch (actual converts not candidates) where he did not ask for 3 months separation but I could not find your email address in your blog, I was going to ask rabbi Eidensohn to forward it to you but then I saw that he already post a proof of it.
As it said:
Zadikim melachtam naaset beidei acherim ( you see I am a real tzadik, OK, Just kidding)
Some of poster Roni/Tropper's latest posts are truly fascinating for the marvel of maneouvering to make things appear in ways that they are obviously not for anyone with a brain in his or her head.
ReplyDeleteTake the question of EJF's aim to convert gentiles married to Jews. Does one need a full-scale conventions paying hundreds of rabbis to come hear about an inter-married couple coming to a bais din to seek the conversion of the gentile partner that it can be dealt with?, that by now there is not a bais din on this planet that has not dealt with this issue.
NO conventions, no matter how contrived are needed to give guidance of any sort on this issue to any competent bais din, to do so so would be to insultgenuine batei din by asking them to participate in reinventing the wheel. However what EJF IS doing is to gather up and pay off as many rabbis as it can to come to carefully primped PR events in order to give cover to a stealth (but by now getting more attention) effort by EJF to udertake something that has NEVER been done before under supposed Haredi auspices yet, and that is to launch a MASSIVE multi-million effort (in Coca Cola PR style) to reach out to, not just to a contrite intermarried couple here and there, but to reach out on a MASS SCALE to ANY such couples en masse, which means to MILLIONS of gentiles hitched to Jews and to entice, lure and bring these gentiles to convert getting their attention by infomercials of all sorts on the Internet, hosting them for free at luxurious hotels and resorts with wining and dining on the EJF house, using all sorts of proven PR tactics in the media to reach out to and "capture" these goyim in the EJF net-- in lehavdil "kiruv rechokim" style -- and in a word PROSELYTIZING in ways that no-one in Torah-true Judaism has EVER done in 2000 years but that now EJF undertakes BRAZENLY with all sorts of krumme "lomdus' (as Roni has of displayed on this very blog) to defend it whil continuing the dangerous game of proseltyzing to these MILLIONS of potential customers to make them into EJF-style haredi converts all overseen and ruled over by one man: Tropper.
The above is the problem that poster Roni/Tropper KNOWS that he is skillfully avoiding when he still does not answer the real question while he cannot resist making others feel stupid for not seeing it according to his non-logic while he "admits" that the rabbis are discussing essentially hypothetical questions put to them by, who else?, Tropper alone of course, based on the "lomdus" and klotz shaila if one is permitted to get involved in situations where a Jew is married to a gentile and what a bais din should do when confronted with such hypothetical unique situations.
In any case, this is something that every kiruv rabbi and shull rov anywhere deals with all the time, as they know when to refer the shailos to batei din without EJF's help and without EJF's supernal and infallibale papal-like guidance.
What is not being admitted to or dealt with by Roni/Tropper in this discussion is should batei din and the rabbis at EJF conventions be manipulated by EJF to give the impression that by their mere involvelement with EJF and Tropper they are somehow or other "also" automatically giving a "hechsher" to Tropper's and EJF's other stated goal (not known to the rabbis at the EJF concerts) that Tropper and EJF have an AGENDA to reach out and convert potentially millions of gentiles hitched to Jews and give them EJF-style haredi conversions to be ruled and adjudicated by Tropper only as chief judge and executioner?
The other assertions that poster Roni makes, that the rabbis at the EJF concerts somehow "agree" with EJF's mass proselytization drive because somehow they must know what is on EJF's website, is a pure joke! Do Rabbis Feinstein and Elya Ber Wachtfogel, not to mention all the other anti-Internet rabbonim have a clue how to even turn on a computer? So Roni/Tropper's assertions yet again fall flat on their face with another concocted tall story.
Look how silly you sound:
ReplyDeleteRap wrote:"The other assertions that poster Roni makes, that the rabbis at the EJF concerts somehow "agree" with EJF's mass proselytization drive because somehow they must know what is on EJF's website, is a pure joke! Do Rabbis Feinstein and Elya Ber Wachtfogel, not to mention all the other anti-Internet rabbonim have a clue how to even turn on a computer? So Roni/Tropper's assertions yet again fall flat on their face with another concocted tall story.",
Roni: Are you serious? RAv REuven does not know how turn on a computer?
IIn any event: You think the wohle olom golom is as dumb as you and others wnat to make them sound? Chochomel, When something is written at the website it means that this is COMMON KNOWLEGE TO ALL! so you mean to say, that what Rt writes in his webvsite for you to see and rail against is now known to the masses and to Rav Feinstein?!??
You in the past have beenmevazeh numerous times with an utter cuhtzpah Rav reuven and enver paologized now your veiled bizyonoss are their lack of basic knowledge that is known to eveyone? and you think that the silly hyperbole on this site did not come to Rav reuven's ears and he still of tzu lochess you and the other critics STAY THERE AS A PRESIDENT OF THE HALACHIK BOARD IN ORDER TO MAKE GERUS KOSHER AND TO TAKE THE FAKE EREV RAV FROM THE FLATBUCH RABBI!
Again been treated by the long chollent that have lots of ink but hollow from the inside:
ReplyDeleteREgarding the point of paying hundreds of rabbis to the convetion?
While Rap's long treatise would mislead you otherwse, EJf's main goal is to create awareness by the rabbis about the ill state of gerussin in the past. Many rabis actually agree with him. They wrote about in teshuvot. They speak about it. They want an unified front on this issue. This is exactly what chollent maker RAP mizes when after the conventions he comes swining about their "myway or the highway" critique. He sigsags about his contradictory criticisms at RT. he would make it sound how terrible RT is for attacking the gerus of others. then he turns around and says: HOw RT is misleading the rabbis to a "concert" (how he lvoes this lie is beyond me) to tell them to prosetyze to goyim
and of course we need the rabbis to get together and fight fraudulent conversions of his partners and buddy HB the rabbi and many others like him. the only way to fight him is bekoach hatzibur veRabim. thatis why hundredsof rabbis come. That is part of what they talk at these conventions.
There needs more andmore of these convetions to stop the fraudulent actions of a few who have manipulated the conversion "market".
Rap's hyperbolic and false accusations do not stand the facts on the ground! words like "MASSIVE" "MILTINILLION EFFORT" DOES NOT STAND TO THE FACT THAT ON THE GROUND, ejf HAS NOT MADE MORE CONVERSIONS THAT HIS BUDDY HERBERT BOMZER did?
Words like "hotel"s "concerts" do not make an actual person be converted. In fact, this krummer cannot know how and where to jump, here he will say that Rt sprinkled millions and then he will say that he revokes those who do not wear a jacket? HOw many millions do you know that would like to wear a jacket all the time??
And again the hyperbole krumkeyt takes him over: "Judaism has EVER done in 2000 years but that now EJF undertakes BRAZENLY with all sorts of krumme "lomdus' (as Roni has of displayed on this very blog)"
RAP: For all your talk and fire and brimstone can you show me one source that says that such a thing is "ASSUR"? (and actually this does not happen in real life; only in his diabolical mind to fight someone who mitigates the fruads of his partner!)
NOw let's capture this line and how silly it sounds:"to defend it whil continuing the dangerous game of proseltyzing to these MILLIONS of potential customers to make them into EJF-style haredi converts all overseen and ruled over by one man: Tropper".
The chollent is working before shabbos! You mean that there he intends to have MILLIONS (OR BILLIONS OR TRILLIONS) CONERTS WHO WILL WEAR JACKETS AT ALL TIMES?
Roni/Tropper is funny. He thinks that asking basic questions is a "bizayon" as he tries to personalize all the issues rather than deal with them in an a fair, honest, open and rational manner.
ReplyDeleteSo far there has been NO "haskoma" of any sort for the main issue that this blog raises, that EJF is angaged in a by now not-so-stealth effort to proselytize to potentially millions of gentiles hitched to Jews via EJF.
That EJF proselytizses using infomercials, million-dollar PR campaigns and offering free luxury retreats for goyim hitched to Jews has been out in the open as proven many times on this blog (Roni always chooses to ignore that) and it is that and that alone that is the worrisome innovation that this blog has been questioning because EJF's new drive to reach out "kiruv-style" to all and sundry gentiles runs counter to 2000 years of Jewish law and lore in spite of Roni/Tropper's presumptious and untenable defenses to the contrary saying shockingly "where does it say it's assur to proselytize" like one who asks lehachis "where does it say in the Torah that you cannot eat chicken with milk?" and such like klotz kashyos meant to prove the ridiculous.
In order to deflect and not deal with this question and give hard answers, Roni/Tropper has relied on his red herrings (meaning distracting from the main subject of discussion) by holding up the subject of weak conversions and the need to raise standards and never failing to attack rabbis who do so. While that is an importnat subject, it's not the subject of discussion. In conversions, as in all areas of Halacha there can be a lenient and stricter approach (Roni/Tropper's chinuch and mind-set only allow him to promote a single my-way-or-the-highway strict approach) -- Roni/Tropper even goes balistic when this subject is raised because he assumes that when anyone is talking of a more "lenient approach" it must mean that it's going against the Halacha and ties it to a rabbis he hates, but it's not so -- still and all, this is not the subject, when the real issue is and has always been the radical departure from Halacha and Yiddishkeit that Tropper and EJF have introduced by launching a massive Coca Cola PR style drive to "reach out" to and recruit millions of gentiles hitched to Jews in order to "save" the Jews in question. Roni/Tropper has spent much time coming up with all sorts of so called krumme sevoras to rationlize this and in the process proved his capacity as a megaleh ponim baTorah shelo kehalacha, but the bottom line remains that proselytization to masses of gentiles goes against the practice and ideology of Torah-true Yiddisshkeit as it has been practiced and known for the past 2000 years at least.
If Rav Reuven Feinstein is aware as you say he is, then why has he still not answered some basic questions that the public is entitled to know about: Rav Reuven Feinstein: Kiruv and intermarriage: Seven Questions for Rav Reuven Feinstein: Questions 1 - 5; and Rav Reuven Feinstein: Kiruv and intermarriage:Seven Questions for Rav Reuven Feinstein: Questions 6 - 7. Thank you.
rap:"He thinks that asking basic questions is a "bizayon" as he tries to personalize all the issues rather than deal with them in an a fair, honest, open and rational manner".
ReplyDeleteRoni: !) you spoke in the past derogatorily about him. 2) Here you made a crack about him not able to turn on a computer! as if you would score another point. This is "rational"? That whether or not he know how to "turn" a computer that he does not know what is written on the website of EJF and what is common knowledge to all?
RAP:" far there has been NO "haskoma" of any sort for the main issue that this blog raises, that EJF is angaged in a by now not-so-stealth effort to proselytize to potentially millions of gentiles hitched to Jews via EJF."
Roni: !) there is a haskomoh by Rav FEinstein being an active PReseidentof the Halchik comitte of the organization, that the organization is not doing something wrong that Rap and Dt claim them to be doing! He is the Halachik mashgiach!
The haskmooh states: 1) there is NO effotr tto get MILLION gentiles as the hyperbolic jupiter sensationalist RAP contends, 2) there is no issur in some of the activities of EJf that help intermarried couples choose whether they want a genuine conversion. All the bombasctic narishkeyten of Rap and CO are in his head only! (even if mistakes are soemtimes done, there is no alarm and big bangs that RAp and CO contend). overall the activities of EJF is to facilitate conversion at those who are eligible according to halacha to convert and to distance the fraudulent ones that RAp and CO and his partners and enablers work to bring INTO KLAL YISROEL That is why Rav REuven and the hundred Rabbis attend at EJf to fight off the influx of goyim and erev rav into klal yisroel.
And then when jupiter is asked by erath: "where is the "issur" for prosetyzing that you so much alarm with explosions of the big bang coming to crash the fellow just resorts back with the common lack of any torah and halacha scholarship in his replies "to reach out "kiruv-style" to all and sundry gentiles runs counter to 2000 years of Jewish law a.."
Where is this LAW recorded MR RAP? he comes vack with "...in spite of Roni/Tropper's presumptious and untenable defenses.." Untenable to ehom? to the Ah ? who does not left from right? When a question is asked: Where is the "issur" reply to the question if you can!
RAP:""where does it say it's assur to proselytize" like one who asks lehachis "where does it say in the Torah that you cannot eat chicken with milk?":
Chochomel...I could cite you verse in the mishna and talmud that explain the opinion of those who say that it is assur mideorayto and those who claim that it is assur miderabbanan, but the Ah form planet Jupiter would not be able to respobnd where is say in mishna or talmud that there is an issur deorayto or derabbonon to "prosetyz"E whatever that means or does not mean???? Where is the source chochom?
there is NO source, for after two and half years of bombastic wars and explosions you fellow were not able toproduce one such issur and will not be able to produce one..
but i can produce an issur that your rabbi in falitbush brought GOYIM AND EREV RAV TO KLAL YISROEL IT IS AN ISSUR DEORYSSOH OF MASHSHIL HORABIM AND NISSUEY TARROVO! THAT YOU GUYS HAVE HELPED!
to be continued
Then der krummer from jupiter starts his acrobatics: He goes from the ISSUR THAT HE INVENTED AND DEFLECTS FROM THE ISSURIM THAT DO EXIST AND COMES TO HIS "LENIENT" APPROACH! THAT IS THE DEVIATION FROM THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF RECRODED HALACHA! CHOCHOM FROM JUPITER!
ReplyDeleteThese are not "Red herrings" that you and DT have invented! These are real issues that both of you do not appreciate that many hundreds of rabbis do appreciate and come to these conventions primarily because of the false "lenient" fake conversions performed by your buddies those whom you are partners to and enable him to make fraudulent conversions!
You don't recognize the "lenient" approach when it refers to your pseudo 2000 year prohibition of "proselytizing"; where there is no "stringent" approach recorded in Halacha anywhere! But all of a sudden you find that you are en expert (from Jupiter) abotu what is lenient or not in gerut.
Converting someone who is not interested in keeping basic shabbat, kosher, and tahrat hamishpacha is not accepted as Gerut by 99.99 of posskim. It is a crock and fraud! This is the real issue; that hundreds of rabis come to discuss and they do not care for your new invention of the big bang of prohibition "proselytizing" that you ascribe to teh Organization. They fight fake gerim and so the hundreds of rabbis. Yuor invention about the new unfounded prohibition about what EJF does not warrant Rav reuven to lower to this pseudo false argmuentation that really stems from the fact that you are not happy with them fighting your pseudo"lenient" approach! that allows erev rav to be part of klal yisroel. Rav REuven and hundresds of Rabbis will tirellesly work on behafo klal yisroel whether you like it or not!
Then der krummer from jupiter starts his acrobatics: He goes from the ISSUR THAT HE INVENTED AND DEFLECTS FROM THE ISSURIM THAT DO EXIST AND COMES TO HIS "LENIENT" APPROACH! THAT IS THE DEVIATION FROM THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF RECRODED HALACHA! CHOCHOM FROM JUPITER!
ReplyDeleteThese are not "Red herrings" that you and DT have invented! These are real issues that both of you do not appreciate that many hundreds of rabbis do appreciate and come to these conventions primarily because of the false "lenient" fake conversions performed by your buddies those whom you are partners to and enable him to make fraudulent conversions!
You don't recognize the "lenient" approach when it refers to your pseudo 2000 year prohibition of "proselytizing"; where there is no "stringent" approach recorded in Halacha anywhere! But all of a sudden you find that you are en expert (from Jupiter) abotu what is lenient or not in gerut.
Converting someone who is not interested in keeping basic shabbat, kosher, and tahrat hamishpacha is not accepted as Gerut by 99.99 of posskim. It is a crock and fraud! This is the real issue; that hundreds of rabis come to discuss and they do not care for your new invention of the big bang of prohibition "proselytizing" that you ascribe to teh Organization. They fight fake gerim and so the hundreds of rabbis. Yuor invention about the new unfounded prohibition about what EJF does not warrant Rav reuven to lower to this pseudo false argmuentation that really stems from the fact that you are not happy with them fighting your pseudo"lenient" approach! that allows erev rav to be part of klal yisroel. Rav REuven and hundresds of Rabbis will tirellesly work on behafo klal yisroel whether you like it or not!
Roni claims that "Rav REuven and hundresds of Rabbis will tirellesly work on behafo klal yisroel whether you like it or not!" but very reliable sources who know Rav Reuven Feinstein know something else and that is that he (Rav Reuven Feinstein) does NOT agree with Tropper's approach on many things but is afraid to come out in public against Tropper because that would ruin the benefits they both reap from providing a fake public front and that is why he (Rav Reuven Feinstein) refuses to put his signature to a 100% genuine traditional bona fide haskoma and heter, of course asking for a full-blown teshuva to allow mass proselytizations has proven well-nigh impossible with TRopper's stonewalling, so that no matter how much Tropper stands on his head or jumps to the ceilings in apoplexy and yells "I am frummer than even people on Jupiter and Mars and the Sun and Moon", yet Rav Reuven himself has NOT bought into your/Tropper's self-righteous histrionics for the simple reason that he is opposed to much of Tropper's approach to BOTH proselytization AND geirus a la EJF. Own up, it's about time! Instead of falsely accusing the universe or planets of their faults face up to your own glaring failures and problems once and for all!
ReplyDeleteRoni is true to form when he brags: "I could cite you verse in the mishna and talmud that explain the opinion of those who say that it is assur mideorayto and those who claim that it is assur miderabbanan".
ReplyDeleteNo fear, by now everyone who has followed you has seen for themselves how you dredge up citations and mekoros for any side of an argument you wish to defend, or against any view you wish to attack, like a magician pulling rabbits out of hats.
After all, there is good reason you are the one who has been selected to represent Tropper and EJF and you never fail to over-reach yourself and give yourself compliments, like on Tropper's new blog where he spends all his time debating (who else?) himself, of course, since no-one else could come up with his acrobatics to justify NO heter, haskoma or teshuva to justify EJF's grandiose proselytization scheme to set itself up as the world's largest haredi missionary organization to "reach out" to goyim hitched to Jews by the millions with the tens of millions of dollars that has been poured into EJF by uncle Tom and his nephew when he was aboard the EJF gravy train, and oh yeah, let's not forget it's open admitted claims on Internet infomercials, proven on this blog multiple times, about EJF's wild dreams of "reaching" billions of people who EJF infomercials allege are the third of humanity that may be of "Jewish descent" -- which comes straight from EJF's own ads on the web and not from people on other planets, but no doubt if there were intermarried people on other planets Tropper and uncle Tom Kaplan would conceive of ways to reach them too.
Honestly the Roni and RaP cage match is getting tired. The tone that both sides choose to use is non-conducive to actual discussion or debate. Essentially both side are electronically yelling at each other and relying on their latest witticisms to convey their points, points which lack either substance or documentation.
ReplyDeleteOn one hand we have RaP boldly proclaiming that something has been ossur for 2000 yrs, but cannot provide a proof. He claims the reason is that it is either obvious or did not need be said. To which I will answer with Y"D 85:6, if ChaZaL felt the need tell us about cooking meat in human semen, I have a hard time understanding why something as Choshuv as proselytizing goes without mention is quite baffling.
On the other hand Roni repeatedly tells us that not only is it quite allowed the who's who of Gedolim back it. However he has yet to provide a single teshuva or haskoma to back his position.
So why not drop the witticisms and the vilification and actually discuss this like rational adults in the spirit of Hillel and Shammai.
Ten points and sources to answer mekubal and Roni, yet again:
ReplyDeleteHonestly mekubal as a serious contributor to this blog you surprise me that you haven't paid note to all the hard work done by the owner of this blog Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn/da'as torah who preceded me and who is the one you should have been following and who a long time ago provided the very information you now ask of me.
For the record, in the past I have reposted and cited the links to the key posts a few times already that will answer your questions.
I have not been blindly saying things, but I have assumed that serious readers are aware of all the hard work that preceded me, and yet again I am now going to point you to some of the key posts that contain the "proof" you seek and which I assumed that you of all people was fully aware of. So here goes, yet again:
1) Proselytizing is problematic I - Aruch HaShulchan (January 8, 2008): "(Yoreh Deah 268:6): One should not try to actively encourage any non-Jew to convert. In fact we should discourage conversion as we see in Yevamos (47a): When a non-Jew comes to us and requests that he be converted we say to him, “What is the reason that you want to convert? Don’t you know that the Jews in our times are persecuted and oppressed, despised, harassed and overcome by afflictions?” ...ערוך השולחן (יורה דעה רסח:ו): אין להסית שום גוי לגייר את עצמו ואדרבא כך אמרו חז"ל ביבמות [מז.] כשבא עכו"ם לנו ומבקש שיגיירוהו אומרים לו מה ראית שבאת להתגייר אי אתה יודע שישראל בזמה"ז דווים סחופים ומטולטלים ויסורים באים עליהם
2) Proselytizing is problematic II - Yevamos 109b (January 11, 2008): "Yevamos (109b): R’ Yitzchok said what is the meaning of Mishlei (11:15): He that is a surety for a stranger will suffer for it? That means evil upon evil comes to those who accept converts... That those who accept converts bring evil upon themselves is learned from R’ Chelbo who said: Converts are as difficult for Israel as a sore on the skin...יבמות (קט:): דא"ר יצחק, מאי דכתיב: (משלי יא:טו) רע ירוע כי ערב זר? רעה אחר רעה תבא למקבלי גרים, ... מקבלי גרים - כר' חלבו, דאמר ר' חלבו: קשים גרים לישראל כספחת בעור...Tosfos (Yevamos 109b): Evil upon evil comes to those who accept converts – The Ri explained that that is only when the non‑Jews are proselytize to convert or they are accepted prematurely before they are ready...תוספות (יבמות קט:): רעה אחר רעה תבא למקבלי גרים - אמר ר"י דהיינו היכא שמשיאין אותן להתגייר או שמקבלין אותן מיד
3) Proselytizing is problematic III - Obligation to convert is on ger - not beis din (January 18, 2008) (lenghty discussion from sources). ...
Ten points for mekubal & Roni, 4-7:
ReplyDelete4) Why didn't Ezra convert intermarried couples?: HaRav Menashe Klein, shilta (February 21, 2008)
5) Valid conversions are not always good for the Jewish people - Rabbeinu Bachye (March 20, 2008)
6) HaRav Moshe Sternbuch: Kiruv for someone with a Jewish father and a non‑Jewish mother (August 10, 2007) and Hebrew original.
7) Kiruv for non-Jews with Jewish Identity II (August 24, 2007) (see links within for more sources). ...
For mekubal & Roni, points 8-10:
ReplyDelete8) Bedatz letter regarding conversion (November 18, 2007) and Hebrew original: "The senior dayanim of the Bedatz met today to discuss allegations that certain kiruv activists are actively proselytizing the children of intermarried couples to convince them to convert – even though according to Torah law there is no halachic relationship with their Jewish fathers. They are calling for the acceptance of these non-Jewish children in Jewish programs and religious schools. Such an action is literally a disaster and self‑destructive. It is self‑evident that such a program is absolutely prohibited by the Torah... (why not ask Rav Shternbuch why he regards proselytization as SELF-EVIDENTLY being "ABSOLUTELY PROHIBITED BY THE TORAH" !!!)
9) Bedatz Letter regarding EJF signed by Gaavad (February 14, 2008) and Hebrew original: "...break off association with this organization (Eternal Jewish Family) which is a danger to the future of the Jewish people. Even isolated cases of this type of conversion (of intermarried couples) are extremely problematic. This is explicitly stated by the Achiezer (3:28) that “no kosher beis din should deal with this (the conversion of intermarried couples).” Also look in the Igros Moshe (E.H. 1:27) where he states “this whole issue of conversion of intermarried couples is personally totally distasteful even in isolated cases.” It is simply not acceptable to deal with the issue of intermarried couples in this manner and to openly reinforce their activities with public announcements and notices in newspapers and internet and other such means. They are in effect inviting non‑Jews to participate in a program of conversion through this publicity. It is a really damaging approach which unfortunately will bring about even more intermarriages and invalid conversions..."
10) (My own point): See the MAHARSHA in Chulin, perek Gid hanashe, wherein he interprets the fight between the angel of Eisav and Yaakov and the that the wound the angel of Eisav inflicts on Yaakov in his "gid hanashe" he was actually emasculating Yaakov which would be a sign that in the future generations of Yaakov, in the acharis hayamim before the coming of mashiach there would be doros hashmad and a mass exodus of many Yidden FROM Yiddishkeit. Meforshim regard them as the descendents of the eruv rav who need to be cast off in the end of days so that Klal Yisroel can be rid of them forever. What EJF is doing is to try reach out not just to Yidden but to goyim by proselytizing and in effect trying to reverse what the Hashgocha Elyona is doing by getting rid of the Yidden who have nebach hitched themselves to goyim of their own free choice.
Since Cheder/Kindergarten/Gan Chova we hear the story the story of Kamtza and bar Kamtza and this time of the year every Orthodox, Conservative or Reform rabbi mentions the story in his sermon.
ReplyDeleteOne may think how come all the rabbis who were in the party (some say the whole Sanhedrin was present) not even one said to the host something like this: "Hey, it is not Bar Kamtza fault that he ended up here , it is YOUR servant fault who messed up the invitation so stick it out and let him stay". One reason the kept quiet is the host was feeding them , he probably was very rich and they were afraid of him.
Maybe if we had then one Rabbi who spoke up and confront the host we would still have the temple now.
RaP thank you for the halachic clarification. Just for the record, I did not intend to say that, much of this groundwork had never been done. My primary point was that we have been relying on witticisms and vilification to make arguments as opposed to intelligently laying forth the facts.
ReplyDeleteIn actually taking time to do this, you helped, in my opinion, to re-center the conversation upon something constructive.
mekubal claims that: "we have been relying on witticisms and vilification" but I really beg to differ simply because I know that I try my best to rely on straightforward logic and reasoning which seem to be alien to Roni/Tropper's mindset, who aside from twisting words, creates so many red herring distractions that it invarioubly leads to the kind of situation that you experience as being so distasteful.
ReplyDeleteCount the times that poster Roni/Tropper has launched into verbal paroxysms of hate, abuse and anger for what he imagines are "insults" (mostly creations of his own mind) of those he deems above criticism. How many times has he launched into his wild maniacal upper case typing that indicates hysteria instead of debating calmly and collectedly. Too many to count.
Even if he regards the rabbi he hates in Flatbush so much as a villain and the devil incarnate (which he is not), how many times has he hurled the most violent, vile and vulgar verbal curses and abuse and insults at him and then goes on to stick that abuse to anyone that may differ with him (Roni) on this blog? Is this the way a gentleman or a talmid chochem speaks? Did Rav Moshe Feinstein speak to ANYONE in such a manner? Does Rav Elyashiv talk like a grobber yung to ANYONE the way Roni/Tropper has no hesitation in talking about other Jews as if he were writing for some antisemitic rag chalila? Roni is very clear that anyone who does not see it his way is deserving of the worst verbal and mocking treatment this side of hell.
Methinks your moral equavalency slip is getting the better of you and you are letting it show instead of calling a spade a spade and telling off Roni when he talks like a boor while spouting this and that gemora as if he were the ultimate maven which he is not.
Sorry mekubal, but you have not been yourself since you did the very important service of uncovering that Rav Eisenstein's signature had been fraudulently faked together with 8 other rabbis (the 10th was Tropper and he was the one orchestrating things) at any rate, don't let the bullying likes of Roni/Tropper intimidate you because that is exactly his tactic rather than agreeing to be rational and logical and to admit his and Tropper's faults and failings would rather come here with guns blazing, like a seeming hired gun out to do hits chalila, and imposing his forced code of "infalibilty" as if we were his gullible underlings in Kol Yaakov Monsey. Remember, Roni/Tropper is not the Pope lehavdil and no-one on this blog are obliged to bow down to his screaming and shouting antics befitting a spoiled child and not a serious talmid chochem.
Take care!
to the man from jupiter,
ReplyDeleteI heard that you and Dt are really not agreeing with each other but are afraid because they are afraid that would ruin the benefits
"both reap from providing a fake public front" andon and on with shtussim vehavolim.
The man is is the president of thehalachk committee of theorganization and here comes someone from jupiter and claims that he knowns "from inside" what really goes on....(andd agaiin mevazeh Rav Reuven as the usual mechutzaf)
your whole theory from day one is bobbeh maysseh. make a fake war, inventing an issur that does not exist and expressing your hatred of another jew in such a farrkrumte way...
RAP wrote: "Did Rav Moshe Feinstein speak to ANYONE in such a manner? Does Rav Elyashiv talk like a grobber yung to ANYONE"
ReplyDeleteROni: Do you hear yourself: did any of them talk the way you talk about Rav Tropper?
Roni said
ReplyDeleteI heard that you and Dt are really not agreeing with each other but are afraid because they are afraid that would ruin the benefits
"both reap from providing a fake public front" andon and on with shtussim vehavolim.
The man is is the president of thehalachk committee of theorganization and here comes someone from jupiter and claims that he knowns "from inside" what really goes on....(andd agaiin mevazeh Rav Reuven as the usual mechutzaf)
==============
Sorry Roni your tirade doesn't make an acceptable substitute for facts. I am stating clearly and unequivocally that I have reliable information that Rav Reuven did not and does not agree with Tropper regarding the conferences for intermarried couples and I am challenging you to produce a letter from Rav Reuven that says I am wrong. In other words not only Tom Kaplan did not approve them[as Tropper as admitted] but the head of EJF's halacha committee didn't either.
Bottom line either you are bluffing or alternatively that R' Tropper does not confide in you what is really going on.
Roni said
ReplyDeleteI heard that you and Dt are really not agreeing with each other but are afraid because they are afraid that would ruin the benefits
"both reap from providing a fake public front" andon and on with shtussim vehavolim.
The man is is the president of thehalachk committee of theorganization and here comes someone from jupiter and claims that he knowns "from inside" what really goes on....(andd agaiin mevazeh Rav Reuven as the usual mechutzaf)
==============
Sorry Roni your tirade doesn't make an acceptable substitute for facts. I am stating clearly and unequivocally that I have reliable information that Rav Reuven did not and does not agree with Tropper regarding the conferences for intermarried couples and I am challenging you to produce a letter from Rav Reuven that says I am wrong. In other words not only Tom Kaplan did not approve them[as Tropper as admitted] but the head of EJF's halacha committee didn't either.
Bottom line either you are bluffing or alternatively that R' Tropper does not confide in you what is really going on.
Mekubak,
ReplyDeleteI 'm flabergasted, after a request to find in Halacha an ISSUR for proseltyizng you/Dt and Rap worked so tirelessly for two and half years and all three of you cannot one source in *Halacha* that this ossur!
number 2 3 4 5 10 are not halachik ISSURIM AT ALL! These are statements about gerut in general (many of whom can and should be directed at the faltbush rabbi).
1 is the only relevant source and that too is not phrased in terms of "ASUR TO PROSETYZE" (THE MEANING OF A PROHIBITION) ; IT IS RATHER "EYN LHOSSIT" (ONE SHOULD NOT INCITE) and it realtes to the general directive of chazal to discourage people to convert but there is no ISSUR TO PROSETYZE! The fellow claimed earlier that itis like there is no discussion in torah abbout the issur bossor of vechalav. What amhoraatzoos and illogical statement! there is ample discussion about it.
Then heproceeeds with letters from 2007-9 about one Beis Din organzation witrh some Rabbonim who tihkn itis Assur. The question was: where is it in HALACHIKSOURCES IN THE PAST 2000 YEARS THAT IT IS ASSUR?
It is time to step down from the high tree that allof you have climbed to in order to make a war over something that has no backing what soever.
Again: BRING ME ONE SOURCE IN HALACHA (AND START FROM RAMBAM, TUR, SHULCHAN ORUCH AND EARLY ACHRONIM OR LATE ACHORINIM UNTIL THE PAST 30 YEARS THAT STATED THAT IT IS "ASSUR" TO PROSETYZE!
After two yers, neithe Dt, Mekubal RAP and others have been able toproduce and there is not!
But regarding those who make FAKE GERIM AND BRING THE EREV RAV THAT THE SOURCES TALK ABOUT AND HALACHA STATES THAT THEY ARE GOYIM I COULD PROVIDE YOU WITH CHAAPTER AND VERSE FROM SHULCHAN ORUCH THAT THEY ARE GOYIM GMURIM AND THEREFORE ITIS AN ISSUR GAMUR TO ENGAGE IN THESE ACTIVITES.
Mrkubal ,it is also funny that you would ask me to produce a "heter" for something THAT WAS NEVER RECORDED AS OSSUR! WE learn from an early age and thisis BASIC LOGIC (AS THE TALMUD SAYS : "SVORO HEE LMO LEE KRO" HAMOTZIVT MECHAEROY ALAV HARAYAH! you have in backwards in your blog! You want to make a charge upon EJf and Rt! It is YOU whyo must provide that there is an issur from 2000 YEARS! YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED US WITH SUCH ANISSUR
(btw: also the letters 6 7 8 do not claim that there is a halachk issur going back to two years!)
Good lucj in climbing down the tree!
No Dt,
ReplyDelete?It is enough of "reliable information" that i heard from jupiter! Bring them down to planet earth! Aftter two and half years that you rail at a man with such an intensity you should have done thehomework before rather than having some "inside information" from people who misitnerpret just as you did in the past!
you can try all your arm twisting and embarassing Rav Reuven for a thousand times that he did not know tihs; he did know that; I have "inside information" that he knew this; he knew that; he was behind the EJf. Despite your embarassing him for two years he did not back down and is still the president of the organization whose one of the objectives is to instill KOSHER GERUT AND STOP THE INFLUX OF GOYIM GMURIM INTO KLAL YISROEL!
ReplyDeleteNope Roni I don't buy your approach. After two years of R' Tropper suffering from my questions it is obvious that he hasn't pulled out the proof - because he doesn't have any.
ReplyDeleteR Tropper had two choices when the Bedatz challenged him. Ignore them or defend himself by producing letters from gedolim that directly refuted the charges of the Bedatz.
R' Tropper himself repeated demanded that I produce the information that he claims that I convinced the Bedatz to criticize him.
It is obvious that that my charges sting. He has repeated said it on his blog. He has you wasting countless hours with furious comments.
Where are the letters?
Roni,
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you quit with the insults and act like a normal human being in a discussion. Bring your proofs. Get your haskomot. Your ad-hominem attacks are de-valuing your arguments faster than the dollar.
The wording of the Aruch HaShulchan above is very convincing. Not inciting people to convert means not advertising, not holding retreats at fancy hotels, not seeking after people. All things that EJF seems to do. Yet you cannot provide a heter for their actions, you simply try fancy dance steps around the problem.
RaP,
ReplyDeleteRoni may act in many ways, but we need not respond in kind.
Dt,
ReplyDeleteAnd aftere two years it is obvious that you have no proof whatsover for a bomb issur to "proselytize". He owes you nothing. you are the motzi mechaveroy. He has the backing of Rav Reuven. all your teshvuot from jupiter and voices from heaven that Rav Reuven changed hismind will not help you. He has the backing of Gedoyley yisroel. After two years of bashing you produced nothing, besides confusing the masses over the facts; over what is prioority and what is secondary. you also recently confused the people to think that Cukierkorn's conversions only problem is tha the "proselytizes" something leaves room for an outsider to think that that something that the gerut is good for some people; he only violated the new issur of "proselytizing". In fact you are helping reform and conservative gerut to think that there's something to talk about...so much for your zealotry against the wrong issues...
Why? Because you do a terrible disservice to klal yisroel! You equate EJF and Cukierkorn! you invented a false war. You are not immune from ad homiest attacks. Your blog is filled with them and at one person!
ReplyDeleteThe words of the Aruch Hashulchan is not convincing at all! You know what? If the words are convincing I'll tell you that the Shulchan Oruch that did not write this holds not like the aruch hashulchon and all are not supposed to follow the Aruch Hashulchon! But in any event,, there is NO ISSUR! (put in your ....head), no wording of "issur". It is much less that what Rav MOshe FEinstein talks about "gerut leshem ishut" that the shoulchan ORuch states deirectly to check before hand if the fellow is converting "leshem ishut" and YET RMF writes black on white that it is not "an issur barur"! so kal vechomer ben bnoy shel kal vechomer about "not proseltyze" where ShulchanAruch does not bring this!Can you understand that Rav Moshe writes that that is not an "issur barur" kal vechomer that Shulchan Oruch does not write a word about not prosetyzing!
any bar bey rav dechad yomah knows that you can't go on a war against someone because the ARUCH HASHULCHAN WRITES SOMETHING! Al achas kamoh vekamoh that the ARuch Hashulchon is not writing in our circumnstances veod veod.
come does of your high horse. Bring proof that Rav REuven in writing states that he holds that this is assur. that other Rabbonim that participate at teh converntions hold that this is assur. Stop trivilizing something serious by equating your new issurim with REFORM GERUT OF CUKIERKORN!
On a further note about proselytizing never mind the Rambam and the Tur. Simple halacha stands that Minhag Yisrael is Halacha. As the minhag has been, for a very long time to not proselytize, that is halacha.
ReplyDeleteIts like Cracker matzah. Centuries ago everyone ate soft matzah, like the Sephardim do today. However, at some point there was a problem with the ovens and concern over the matzah molding, so in Prague(and later Europe) they switched to cracker matzah. Now that is minhag yisrael, and soft matzah is ossur to Ashkenazim.
Seems to me to be the same story here. Without a heter from Gedolim saying that we need to switch the minhag and thus the halacha, the halacha, on account of the minhag stands contrary to proselytizing.
For anyone living in Jerusalem that would like to see an interesting example of this. There is a Sephardi Synagogue on Har Tzion next to Kever David. Apparently at one point it was an Ashkenazi Shul. When the Sephardim moved in, because the minhag, and thus the halacha of the Shul, has been Ashkenazi, they went to a B"D in order to change it. They still have the Teuda from the B"D hanging on the wall so that no one will question their ability to daven according to Sephardi minhag.
In Europe, EJF offers to pay per intermarried couple one gets to attend a seminar. (I dont know how it works in America). One doesnt need a brilliant business sense to figure out that this entire system is liable to produce problems. An otherwise unemployed avreich can attend a seminar or two at a fancy hotel, and then off he goes in search of gentiles married to Jews to deliver to EJF, and he gets paid for it. It becomes a parnasa machine in these difficult times by delivering EJF what they need to feed their parnasa/press/prominence machine- numbers. Why does Rabbi Tropper do this? To make Mr. Kaplan happy? To feed his other campaigns? Who knows? Who cares?
ReplyDeleteAs long as the on the ground work of EJF is to rustle up as many intermarried couples as possible and try to convince them to convert, the whole argument about whose standards are better, Rabbanim in Flatbush, Haskamos or photos, etc... is irrelevant. This will not end well. For it to succeed, it would need the active involvement of Rabbanim and Mekarvim on the periphery, not in Yerushalayim or Brooklyn, and they are far too savvy (and far too busy working with Jews) to fall for this.
Mekubal:"On a further note about proselytizing never mind the Rambam and the Tur. Simple halacha stands that Minhag Yisrael is Halacha. As the minhag has been, for a very long time to not proselytize, that is halacha".
ReplyDeleteROni: finally, Meklubal get's tothe point, where no Tur, no shulchanOruch, no Rambam, it's Minhag!
And a minhag that is not even recorded in ShulchanOruch as Minhog!
And not is there is a clear definition to the reasons oftheminhag so that one can make an WAR on andividual and an irrational war on something that he cannot provide a source for his war, and yet he stays mum in targeting the real problemsof gerut!
Now, again for the hundredth time: Rav Moshe Feinstein wrote that regarding the "issur" (in SO) not to convert "leshemishut", (can you grasp?), something *recorded* in Jewish Code of law! that since itis an issur that is not CLEAR "issur sheynoh barur" one may convert when it prevents from another issur ("issur kal sheloy yavoy leissur chamur)!
How much so, your pseudoissur of "minhag" thatis not recorded ANYWHERE IN sA can be superseded in order to prevent an issur chamur!
Two years and half of a war filled with hatred and ad hominom attacks OVER WHAT? OVER A "MINHAG" THAT IS NOT DEFINED!
Yet, the Faltbush Rabbi brings GOYIM GMURIM AND YOU have all the time of the world not to trarget it!
And to top it off, you came with a new krummer chiddush: CUKIERKORN'S PROBLEM IS YOUR SILLY "MINHAG" OF PROSETYZING! NEVER MIND THAT ALL HIS CONVERTS ARE GOYIM GMURIM!
Observer and all critics (old and new shemoss hakdoshim vehathorim hamischalfim miyom leyom avol hoetzem chad hooh!),
ReplyDeletePut in your memos: as long as the RAbbis [...] will convert goyim gmurim without any kabbalat hamitzvot (and you are and were qquiet) most rabbis will understand that Rt and his organization is the best solution for the time being! Only his activites will mitigate the influx of the erev rav into our society!
Dear defender of EJF, I can assure you I am new here.
ReplyDeleteAnd you are missing my point, deliberately and entirely in keeping with the whole EJF strategy.
If EJF was truly only about fighting poor standards in Geirus, do you think everyone would raise such hackles? Rav Nachum Eisenstein was at it for years before Rabbi Tropper discovered the money, sorry, the issue, and claimed to make it his own. And no one from the velt had any problems with Rav Nachums kanaus. What you should really be worried about is the following- it is not modern people defending weak rabbanim and bad standards who are suspicious of EJF. Lehephech- it is the bnei Torah and Yerei Shomayim who wouldnt go near a suspicious Beis Din who are increasingly disillusioned with EJF. Because no matter what is said from the podium at conferences in the presence of choshuve Rabbonim, the bottom line in the field is that EJF is out there fishing desperately for intermarried couples to hook in. Why? Money. Many, many people in the field know it. It is why already now EJF needs to practically buy attendance at their events with five star hotels and free flights. Soon even this will not suffice.
You are fighting an uphill battle against the truth. This is terribly unfortunate because you are absolutely correct that much tougher standards are necessary today for giyur. Unfortunately, this money driven, chashivus motivated organisation will only confuse and undermine the important cause you pay lip service to.
Observer (new and old)
ReplyDelete"If EJF was truly only about fighting poor standards in Geirus, do you think everyone would raise such hackles? Rav Nachum Eisenstein was at it for years before Rabbi Tropper discovered the money, sorry, the issue, and claimed to make it his own".
And yet Rav Eisenstein is an ACTIVE PARTNER in many of EJF's activites! Obviously he understands that THEY DO HIS JOB!
The rest is just the rest! Bney Torah respect their Choshuver Rabboim and Roshey Yeshivot and Gedolim! When you have Rav Kamentzsky and Rav Reuven partaking with EJf you understand on whoser side the "bney torah" are! And when those who are in the field know what fake dayanim and rabanim usurped the system (names of which are not mentioned in this silly blog)they are all in it to be partners with EJF.
Funny how we do not hear from members of this blog about any other rabbi who does fake gerim; only about the "prsetyziers" the stupidity is great that Cukierkorn a reform rabbi is blamed for "prosetyzing". TRhis is the "bney Torah" blog whom you identify with?!
"When you have Rav Kamentzsky and Rav Reuven partaking with EJf you understand on whoser side the "bney torah" are!"
ReplyDeletePoor comparison of this poor blog with EJF's mammoth money stemarolling. This blog does not have access to tens of millions of dollars from anyone and cannot sponsor free trips and stays and hotels for raabbis and wannabe converts alike as EJF has been since its inception, in classica vote-buying style. So there is no comparison between a few poor bloggers bravely speaking out with sself-sacrfice on the truth and creating a small counter-balance to the multi-million dollar EJF PR infomercial and hype machine. Think about it, and stop comparing, yet again, gigantic apples (EJF) with microscopic oranges (of this blog).
Hello Everybody,
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