The simple answer is that the hashkofa that Rabbi Oliver presents is alien. I hear his sources and have read Ahl HaTzadikim - which is on my desk in front of me as I type these words. The question is at this point what is the question? If you want to argue from the point of kabbala and chassidus - I acknowledge that I am not an expert in either. However even to the degree to which the words of the Lubavitcher Rebbe are explained and follow logically from axioms and principles - they don't compute. I am more comfortable with the view expressed by Rebbe Nachman regarding the kabbalistic concept of tzimtzum.
Only in the future will it be possible to understand the Tzimtzum that brought the 'Empty Space' into being, for we have to say of it two contradictory things... [1] the Empty Space came about through the Tzimtzum, where, as it were, He 'limited' His Godliness and contracted it from there, and it is as though in that place there is no Godliness... [2] the absolute truth is that Godliness must nevertheless be present there, for certainly nothing can exist without His giving it life. (Likkutei Moharan I, 64:1).
With all the logic and cited sources - the result is not what I learned in yeshiva. It is also not because it involves kabbalistic/chassidic concepts. It is the resulting picture of the Lubavitcher Rebbe as ish elokim that I choke on. That is not the way my rebbeim talked about gedolim and it is not anything like the descriptions of gedolim I have ever read or heard. What you see in your rebbe is not what I saw in Rav Moshe Feinstein or Rav Aaron Kutler. The infallible, navi who is omniscient and should be the focus of our prayers and the motivation for our good deeds - has never appeared as a model in my world. Not even Moshe Rabbeinu is described this way.
The obvious question is "so what?" What does it matter if the chassidim learn and understand yiddishkeit differently? The simple answer is the net result of these differences are that Chabad is separating from the body of Orthodox Jewry. While the Rebbe was alive and was firmly in control over the consequences of these statements and attitudes - it is possible to declare firmly eilu v'eilu.
What I see happening is that these ideas and beliefs have already produced in certain parts of Chabad a religion which is increasingly less recognizably Jewish than it was while the Rebbe was alive.
What happens here on this blog is possibly not of consequence for the future of the Jewish people. However the increasing alienation between Chabad and the rest of us does have consequences. If they continue growing apart - at some point there will be a split like there was when Jews who believed in Yoshka became Christians, when the Sadducees split off from the main body, when Karaites went their own way as did Shabtsai Tzvi and the Reform and Conservative movements. The fragmenting of Jews is a well known phenomenon in our history. Whether a total break happens I don't know since I am not a prophet - but the fault lines do grow bigger by the day.
Two hundred years ago Chassidus threatened to break off from the mainstream - but didn't. It is not clear to me that Chabad will not end up not only splitting off in the future - but also be rejected by the mainstream.
Chabad has to deal with people like me who get high anxiety and distress when they see alien behavior and hear bizarre assertions. All the intellectual proofs and explanations - do not remove this intuitive repulsion to the unfamiliar. Similar Chabad is increasingly angry and hurt by the revulsion felt and expressed by us. This is not sinas chinom. Certain differences and variations are acceptable and even treasured. However it is inevitable that beyond a certain point - the differences lead to the perception that that is not one of us and there is simply a reflexive rejection response.
I obviously am not poskening nor prescribing - I am simply describing what is. Therefore I say to Rabbi Oliver - nice try. But I am not convinced. My queasiness when reading the statements of the Lubavitcher Rebbe is not assuaged by your soothing words and seemingly logical explanations. Chaval - I was hoping you would succeed.
The obvious question is "so what?" What does it matter if the chassidim learn and understand yiddishkeit differently? The simple answer is the net result of these differences are that Chabad is separating from the body of Orthodox Jewry. While the Rebbe was alive and was firmly in control over the consequences of these statements and attitudes - it is possible to declare firmly eilu v'eilu.
What I see happening is that these ideas and beliefs have already produced in certain parts of Chabad a religion which is increasingly less recognizably Jewish than it was while the Rebbe was alive.
What happens here on this blog is possibly not of consequence for the future of the Jewish people. However the increasing alienation between Chabad and the rest of us does have consequences. If they continue growing apart - at some point there will be a split like there was when Jews who believed in Yoshka became Christians, when the Sadducees split off from the main body, when Karaites went their own way as did Shabtsai Tzvi and the Reform and Conservative movements. The fragmenting of Jews is a well known phenomenon in our history. Whether a total break happens I don't know since I am not a prophet - but the fault lines do grow bigger by the day.
Two hundred years ago Chassidus threatened to break off from the mainstream - but didn't. It is not clear to me that Chabad will not end up not only splitting off in the future - but also be rejected by the mainstream.
Chabad has to deal with people like me who get high anxiety and distress when they see alien behavior and hear bizarre assertions. All the intellectual proofs and explanations - do not remove this intuitive repulsion to the unfamiliar. Similar Chabad is increasingly angry and hurt by the revulsion felt and expressed by us. This is not sinas chinom. Certain differences and variations are acceptable and even treasured. However it is inevitable that beyond a certain point - the differences lead to the perception that that is not one of us and there is simply a reflexive rejection response.
I obviously am not poskening nor prescribing - I am simply describing what is. Therefore I say to Rabbi Oliver - nice try. But I am not convinced. My queasiness when reading the statements of the Lubavitcher Rebbe is not assuaged by your soothing words and seemingly logical explanations. Chaval - I was hoping you would succeed.
All this reminds me of an old joke I'm sure you heard long ago:
ReplyDeleteThe Rebbe's walking down the street when he runs into Rav Eliezer Schach. They look at each other for a moment and then Rav Schach asks: "So, what's new?"
"Haven't you heard?" replies the Rebbe. "I'm the Moshiach!"
"What?" gasps Rav Schach. "Who told you that?"
"Eliyahu haNavi."
Rav Schach slowly shakes his head. "No I didn't!"
"should be the focus of our prayers"
ReplyDeleteWhat nonsense, I never suggested anything of the sort, ch"v.
You say that these ideas concerning Tzaddikim are foreign to you. All this gets back to the original point of mine that your complaint is not against Chabad per se. Your complaint is against the idea of koching in the relationship with the Tzaddik, and that Hashem speaks through the Tzaddik, which is a core concept in the entire derech of Chasidus, as evidenced from countless stories of emunas Tzadikim from all Chasidishe groups. Indeed, this is not the way non-Chasidim traditionally viewed their leaders. I agree! Indeed.
But recognise that your problem is not just with the derech of Chabad (though I'm flattered that we are so associated with it today), but with the Baal Shem Tov, the Maggid, the Chevraya Kadisha (inner circle of talmidei haMaggid), and so on. It's about Chasidim vs. misnagdim, not Chabad vs. everyone else.
Obviously a beginner to any realm of knowledge, may hear things from experts that he finds odd. So if your complaint is that the way that Chasidishe Rebbeim view things is unfamiliar to you, then the way to understand it better is to ... learn more! You obviously haven't learnt so much Tanya, because you didn't seem familiar with ch. 2. Why not start learning it regularly for starters, to get more background? I'm sure that there are Lubavitchers in Yerushalayim of sufficient caliber to learn it with you.
You say that you are confident that your view is unrelated to the fact that you are a beginner to Kabbolo and Chasidus. I would suggest that you simply don't know how your view would change if you would solidly learn Kabbolo and Chasidus. This study purifies a person's mind and soul and changes the way he thinks in a very special way, as the great teachers of Kabbolo and Chasidus taught.
i have tried unsuccessfully to get on this site posts-apparently anyone above imbecile intelligence isn't allowed.
ReplyDeleteyou say you aren't an expert about certain kabbalistic concepts but you favor reb nachman's interpretation-if you aren't an expert who are you to favor?
furthermore you say about oliver-whoever he may be that you wish he were more convincing but then you go about trashing Chabad as another religion because it wasn't what YOU SAW . again if the person only saw one way all of his life how could he be open to another way unless he truly studied wanting to understand. in your case you study lekanter which excludes you from ever understanding. Reb Moshe was saved from Russia by the efforts of the Lubavitcher Chassidim according to a close friend of the family and he reported that the rebbetzin spoke often to the Rebbe's rebbetzin. Reb Moshe calls the Rebbe hagaon Hakodosh in a teshuva-is that the title for shabsi tzvy ?
your level of argument goes like this-this is how i understand idon't want to understand differently therefore you are an apikores-wonderfully intelligent!
Rabbi Yehoishophot Oliver said...
ReplyDelete"You say that these ideas concerning Tzaddikim are foreign to you. All this gets back to the original point of mine that your complaint is not against Chabad per se. Your complaint is against the idea of koching in the relationship with the Tzaddik, and that Hashem speaks through the Tzaddik, which is a core concept in the entire derech of Chasidus, as evidenced from countless stories of emunas Tzadikim from all Chasidishe groups."
Current Chabad's focus on it's rebbe goes far beyond that found in mainstream chassidic sources. In Chabad today we find a totally new phenomenom of people using their human leader as their primary spiritual focus and purpose. Mitzvos are done to give nachas to the rebbe; the rebbe sees all, knows all, and controls all.
Such an approach, transforming one's rebbe into one's primary spiritual focus, is not found in any sources outside of current Chabad.
"...your problem is not just with the derech of Chabad..., but with the Baal Shem Tov, the Maggid, the Chevraya Kadisha (inner circle of talmidei haMaggid), and so on. It's about Chasidim vs. misnagdim, not Chabad vs. everyone else."
I would be interested in learning of Chasidic sources that justify using one's rebbe as one's primary spiritual focus. It cerainly isn't in Tanya ch. 2 as you seem to imply.
This standard line that the current complaints on Chabad are actually expressions of the old Misnagdim is simply ridiculous.
First of all, many of the current critics of Chabad are from Chasidic (or Chasidic-influenced) backgrounds.
Secondly, few of the non-Chasidic opponents of Chabad have any antagonism against any other Chasidic groups.
It is simply a way of turning aside criticism without addressing the issues. It is another form of ad homimem response. Defenders of Chabad usually end up resorting to one of these. Either, "you are too ignorant of Chassidus/Kabbalah" or "You are a misnagid."