tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post327130750326033948..comments2024-03-28T21:30:33.665+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Chabad -The apologetics aren't satisfyingDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-89680808011097075632008-08-11T00:02:00.000+03:002008-08-11T00:02:00.000+03:00Rabbi Yehoishophot Oliver said... "You say that th...Rabbi Yehoishophot Oliver said... <BR/><I>"You say that these ideas concerning Tzaddikim are foreign to you. All this gets back to the original point of mine that your complaint is not against Chabad per se. Your complaint is against the idea of koching in the relationship with the Tzaddik, and that Hashem speaks through the Tzaddik, which is a core concept in the entire derech of Chasidus, as evidenced from countless stories of emunas Tzadikim from all Chasidishe groups."</I><BR/><BR/>Current Chabad's focus on it's rebbe goes far beyond that found in mainstream chassidic sources. In Chabad today we find a totally new phenomenom of people using their human leader as their primary spiritual focus and purpose. Mitzvos are done to give nachas to the rebbe; the rebbe sees all, knows all, and controls all. <BR/><BR/>Such an approach, transforming one's rebbe into one's primary spiritual focus, is not found in any sources outside of current Chabad.<BR/><BR/><I>"...your problem is not just with the derech of Chabad..., but with the Baal Shem Tov, the Maggid, the Chevraya Kadisha (inner circle of talmidei haMaggid), and so on. It's about Chasidim vs. misnagdim, not Chabad vs. everyone else."</I><BR/><BR/>I would be interested in learning of Chasidic sources that justify using one's rebbe as one's primary spiritual focus. It cerainly isn't in Tanya ch. 2 as you seem to imply.<BR/><BR/>This standard line that the current complaints on Chabad are actually expressions of the old Misnagdim is simply ridiculous. <BR/><BR/>First of all, many of the current critics of Chabad are from Chasidic (or Chasidic-influenced) backgrounds.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, few of the non-Chasidic opponents of Chabad have any antagonism against any other Chasidic groups.<BR/><BR/>It is simply a way of turning aside criticism without addressing the issues. It is another form of ad homimem response. Defenders of Chabad usually end up resorting to one of these. Either, "you are too ignorant of Chassidus/Kabbalah" or "You are a misnagid."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-17036610811758661142008-08-10T15:24:00.000+03:002008-08-10T15:24:00.000+03:00i have tried unsuccessfully to get on this site po...i have tried unsuccessfully to get on this site posts-apparently anyone above imbecile intelligence isn't allowed.<BR/>you say you aren't an expert about certain kabbalistic concepts but you favor reb nachman's interpretation-if you aren't an expert who are you to favor?<BR/>furthermore you say about oliver-whoever he may be that you wish he were more convincing but then you go about trashing Chabad as another religion because it wasn't what YOU SAW . again if the person only saw one way all of his life how could he be open to another way unless he truly studied wanting to understand. in your case you study lekanter which excludes you from ever understanding. Reb Moshe was saved from Russia by the efforts of the Lubavitcher Chassidim according to a close friend of the family and he reported that the rebbetzin spoke often to the Rebbe's rebbetzin. Reb Moshe calls the Rebbe hagaon Hakodosh in a teshuva-is that the title for shabsi tzvy ?<BR/>your level of argument goes like this-this is how i understand idon't want to understand differently therefore you are an apikores-wonderfully intelligent!mashpiaonlinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10423475054398909119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-30763535831541000562008-08-08T22:52:00.000+03:002008-08-08T22:52:00.000+03:00"should be the focus of our prayers"What nonsense,..."should be the focus of our prayers"<BR/><BR/>What nonsense, I never suggested anything of the sort, ch"v.<BR/><BR/>You say that these ideas concerning Tzaddikim are foreign to you. All this gets back to the original point of mine that your complaint is not against Chabad per se. Your complaint is against the idea of koching in the relationship with the Tzaddik, and that Hashem speaks through the Tzaddik, which is a core concept in the entire derech of Chasidus, as evidenced from countless stories of emunas Tzadikim from all Chasidishe groups. Indeed, this is not the way non-Chasidim traditionally viewed their leaders. I agree! Indeed. <BR/><BR/>But recognise that your problem is not just with the derech of Chabad (though I'm flattered that we are so associated with it today), but with the Baal Shem Tov, the Maggid, the Chevraya Kadisha (inner circle of talmidei haMaggid), and so on. It's about Chasidim vs. misnagdim, not Chabad vs. everyone else.<BR/><BR/>Obviously a beginner to any realm of knowledge, may hear things from experts that he finds odd. So if your complaint is that the way that Chasidishe Rebbeim view things is unfamiliar to you, then the way to understand it better is to ... learn more! You obviously haven't learnt so much Tanya, because you didn't seem familiar with ch. 2. Why not start learning it regularly for starters, to get more background? I'm sure that there are Lubavitchers in Yerushalayim of sufficient caliber to learn it with you.<BR/><BR/>You say that you are confident that your view is unrelated to the fact that you are a beginner to Kabbolo and Chasidus. I would suggest that you simply don't know how your view would change if you would solidly learn Kabbolo and Chasidus. This study purifies a person's mind and soul and changes the way he thinks in a very special way, as the great teachers of Kabbolo and Chasidus taught.Yehoishophot Oliverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16906934928426540018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-45207852380254461582008-08-08T15:27:00.000+03:002008-08-08T15:27:00.000+03:00All this reminds me of an old joke I'm sure you he...All this reminds me of an old joke I'm sure you heard long ago:<BR/><BR/>The Rebbe's walking down the street when he runs into Rav Eliezer Schach. They look at each other for a moment and then Rav Schach asks: "So, what's new?"<BR/>"Haven't you heard?" replies the Rebbe. "I'm the Moshiach!"<BR/>"What?" gasps Rav Schach. "Who told you that?"<BR/>"Eliyahu haNavi."<BR/>Rav Schach slowly shakes his head. "No I didn't!"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com