Chabad - Messianics - Everyone is today!/Disagreement II

eliyahu's comment to "Chabad - Messianics - Everyone is today!":

I'm sorry but what is written here is a total lye.

I myself have studied in Lubavitcher Yishivos, and happen to know as a matter of a fact that there are many bocharim there that do not believe that the rebbe zy”a continues to be moshiach even after his histalkus (petira). Besides this I know many very choshuver rabbonim & roshei yeshivos who explicitly stated their view point that the rebbe does not continue to be moshiach.

A partial list: Rabbi Berel Levin, the chief editor of the new edition of the Shulchan Aruch Harav & one of the prominent moirei tzedek in crown heights (his view was expressed in a booklet that he eddited called Koivetz Moshiach Ugeula); Rabbi Leibell Shapiro, Rosh Yeshivas Lubavitch of Miami & his son Rabbi Chaim Shapiro, rosh beis medresh lehora'a of morristown NJ (I myself heard this from R' C Shapiro himself); Rabbi Yosef Avrohom Heller, Rosh Kolel of Crown Heights & one of the most prominent (if not the most prominent) poiskim of chabad today (he has stated his view publicly on many occasions); Rabbi Ezra Shochat, the renown rosh yeshivas ohr elchanan chabad of LA (he has publicly stated his opinion on many occasions); Rabbi Yechezkel Sofer, one of the well known mashpiem & lecturers of chabad in EY (his view is recorded in the book he wrote yisborru veyislabnu); Rabbi Chaim Rappeport, a more tzedek & from the well known hoige deiot of chabad (he stated his view in the book he wrote answering david berger) & the list go's on and on.

It is also important to note that contrary to what has been stated here, those who do not define themselves as meschistim, which (at least in Chutz La'aretz) is the vast majority of chabad, besides what I already wrote that many (or most) of them don't bichlal believe that the rebbe zy”a is moshiach, even amogst those who privately do believe so, they do not believe this as a defendant thing & as one of the Ikrei Haemuna, rather they believe so only as a thing which is probable. Also a big deal is not made about it, it is something which is rarely mentioned, and by the lookes of things it is something which (even if we CH”V remain in golus) will not pass to the next generation.

In summery in chabad there exists three camps:

1)the minute camp of the meshechistim who make a big deal of the rebbe being moshiach (and within them itself there are a minute number of believers who believe that the rebbe is alive in a physical sense).

2)Many of the anti meshechistem who totally reject the idea that the rebbe is moshiach.

3)A section of the anti meshechistim who althogh believe that the rebbe is moshiach but don't make a big deal out of it not just to the outside but within themselves too & believe so only as something which is probable.

This therefore being the case I would like to make the following point:

Rabbi chaim rappeport, in his book authored as a response to david berger, makes an important point, namely that even if one is to argue that believing that the rebbe after his histalkus continues to be moshiach is contrary to halacha, nevertheless he still cannot render a meshechist as an apikores. The reason is that although many poiskim are of the opinion that one who denies any of the 13 ikrim (even beshogeg, as is known the vort from R' Chaim of brisk zt”l az a nebach apikoires iz oich an apikoires) is begeder Koifer, nevertheless that is only with regard someone who denies one of the ikrim in it's entirety, but someone who makes a mistake with regard to one of the details of the Ikrim (in our case: someone who mistakenly believes that moshiach can come from the dead), can certainly not be rendered as an apekoires (for example: lets say someone decides that moshiach has to be someone six feet tall & have black hair – although his belief is totally wrong and he is a fool but he is certainly not an apikoires). This therefore takes away david berger's demands that all meshechistim cannot shecht and be sofrim etc.

This being said there is however still a concern that many make with regard to chabad (and I fully understand & agree with it): true that a meshechist is not an apikores, but meshechizem is develeping into a new religion; being that the belief that the rebbe is moshiach is such an integral part of the meshichsts beliefs therefore they are developing into a seperate stream of judaisim.

However based on what I discussed before, this does not apply to any of the anti meshchistim (the majority of chabad) because besides the large numbers amongst them who don't believe the rebbe is moshiach, even those who do, don't believe so in a new-religion style as I wrote above, and therefore being that they are not apikursim and are not going away from the mainstream etc., just because they might be making a mistake is no reason to disclude them from the regular frum orthodox jews.

May we all merit to be marbe in ahavas chinam & see moshiach here soon in our days.