Anonymous commented on my post "Do protests corrupt our society - or strengthen i...":
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I had written:
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I had written:
The Shomer Emunim Rebbe told me that if a person enjoys being a kanoi - he is not allowed to be one. It is not a game for excitement.
Anonymous commented:
Except from my experience on the ground in Yerushalayim, most of the people who protest are the ones who "enjoy" it.
There are very very few who protest who actually don't draw enjoyment/excitement from it.
Put it this way, I would hazard to say (hazard as no statistics, just based on views on the ground) that a larger percentage of people who view themselves kanoim are doing it for the wrong reasons (i.e. enjoyin it) then those who go to co-ed jewish schools (as most simply think its the best school for their children, albiet they might be mistaken).
And this even in small cases, not major ones like have provoked this discussion.
For example, I was waiting with my mother in the outskirts of bnei brak once for a bus. There were some chareidim, but as it was on the outskirts it wasn't really a chareidi area, and a chiloni soldier came with what I assume was his girlfriend. They held each other and kissed. An older woman scolded them harshly. However, it wasn't just scolding, there was an air of superiority, of being happy to scold them, of getting pleasure from it, as well as affirmations from the chareidim around her.
Another example is a someone in the Mir had an issue with his baal dira, that the landlord wanted to kick them out to raise rent. R. Finkel said it was assur what the baal dira was doing. So a friend, who enjoys being a protester/nudnik was the one who stood outside when prospective renters came and told all of them "The Rosh Yeshiva says its assur". I'm not particularly arguing that this is a kanoi case and hence is wrong, I just bring it as an example of enjoying, and that the people who would tend to protest loudly are the ones who gain enjoyment on some level from it. I personally think the RY is well aware of this, and hence why the sign was up in the Mir not to protest (I also tend to think that talmidim in the Mir have the best opportunity to learn middot when compared against the other major chareidi yeshivot).
At the end of the day, I really don't think you are sensitive enough to the facts on the street and what actually happens and how the majority actually feel.
Anonymous commented:
Except from my experience on the ground in Yerushalayim, most of the people who protest are the ones who "enjoy" it.
There are very very few who protest who actually don't draw enjoyment/excitement from it.
Put it this way, I would hazard to say (hazard as no statistics, just based on views on the ground) that a larger percentage of people who view themselves kanoim are doing it for the wrong reasons (i.e. enjoyin it) then those who go to co-ed jewish schools (as most simply think its the best school for their children, albiet they might be mistaken).
And this even in small cases, not major ones like have provoked this discussion.
For example, I was waiting with my mother in the outskirts of bnei brak once for a bus. There were some chareidim, but as it was on the outskirts it wasn't really a chareidi area, and a chiloni soldier came with what I assume was his girlfriend. They held each other and kissed. An older woman scolded them harshly. However, it wasn't just scolding, there was an air of superiority, of being happy to scold them, of getting pleasure from it, as well as affirmations from the chareidim around her.
Another example is a someone in the Mir had an issue with his baal dira, that the landlord wanted to kick them out to raise rent. R. Finkel said it was assur what the baal dira was doing. So a friend, who enjoys being a protester/nudnik was the one who stood outside when prospective renters came and told all of them "The Rosh Yeshiva says its assur". I'm not particularly arguing that this is a kanoi case and hence is wrong, I just bring it as an example of enjoying, and that the people who would tend to protest loudly are the ones who gain enjoyment on some level from it. I personally think the RY is well aware of this, and hence why the sign was up in the Mir not to protest (I also tend to think that talmidim in the Mir have the best opportunity to learn middot when compared against the other major chareidi yeshivot).
At the end of the day, I really don't think you are sensitive enough to the facts on the street and what actually happens and how the majority actually feel.
"a chiloni soldier came with what I assume was his girlfriend. They held each other and kissed. An older woman scolded them harshly."
ReplyDeleteThis is a game often enjoyed by older women. In scolding the young lovers in "horror", they become more exciting and desirable to each other, thus greatly increasing the likelihood of marriage in the near future.
The woman you describe as having an "air of superiority, of being happy to scold them, of getting pleasure from it," is genuine because
she IS genuinely happy to see a young Jewish couple doing something that could result in more Jews. She is also knows that by scolding them, she is merely acting out an expected role of motherly admonition (supported by others) that will likely encourage the behavior.
"Reverse psychology is nothing more than a mind game you play and the object of the game is to confuse and distort the minds of others. I know it may sound complicated, but really it's not. If you have children, you can probably relate to this. When you tell children not to do something, what's the first thing they do? They get into whatever it is that you just told them not to, why? Because you have accelerated their curiosity and desire to see what you have. If you were to apply reverse psychology, you would tell the child that they could have it. It wouldn't be fun anymore, you've taken away their desire to have it and as a result, they wouldn't want it." (Rich Hamilton, Jr CEO/President Elite Marketing)
Do you think that haredim do not know from these things?? (Where do you think all the haredim CAME FROM??? )
Another example of reverse psychology in popular culture might include a large, bright red button with a sign next to it saying "do not push".
How many people do you think will push that button? Almost everyone does and any mother knows this. The best way to get your kids to do something is to tell them not to!!
With regard to the second case, do you know for sure that the Rosh Yeshiva did NOT instruct that this should be done??
Things are not always as they appear nor are they as simple as they seem.
When you say:"There are very very few who protest who actually don't draw enjoyment/excitement from it."
Recent research seems to draw the opposite conclusion, that is that protestors protest based upon their militancy and commitment to the cause rather than out of an attraction to the protest itself.
In "Predicting Protest" by E. Kevin Kelloway; Lori Francis; Victor M. Catano; Michael Teed
Basic and Applied Social Psychology, Volume 29, Issue 1 April 2007 , pages 13 - 22
The authors state in conclusion:
We develop and test a model of participation in protest activities. Data were collected from 182 students in the week preceding and the week following a provincial day of protest against escalating tuition rates. Militancy predicted intent to participate, as did the perceived instrumentality of participation. Intent predicted actual participation and mediated the effects of instrumentality and militancy on participation. As hypothesized, participation in the protest predicted postprotest loyalty and militancy.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete(I also tend to think that talmidim in the Mir have the best opportunity to learn middot when compared against the other major chareidi yeshivot).
The Mir is to large for this type of thing. The Mir and other large Yeshivot are excellent places for a talmid to get lost in. It is not exactly a place for a student to develope a relationship with the rosh yeshiva or in many cases his maggidei shuirim.
Also the examples that anonymous has provided showing how nobody listens to the Shomer Emunim rebbes shitta only backs up what daat torah is saying about protests today.
1) I never said you don't have a clue. I said you aren't sensitive enough.
ReplyDeleteHow many bochrim have you talked to about this? Do you ask them if they know people who enjoy this type of thing? Do you ask them if they enjoy watching this sort of thing? (I can tell you that at least one of my brother in laws who would never be caught doing any such "bad" protests, didn't mind watching them as a bochur from his mirpeset, and speaks excitedly, about when the mishtara chased someone into the building who ran into his apartment and locked the door, like it was some sort of game.
these are all anecdotes, but I was just talking about the enjoyment aspect, in that if you want to see someone who gets enjoyment out of being a kanoi can't be a kanoi, you have a problem because chareidi society has many kanoim who enjoy it.
There's a famous story (I believe, memory might be failing me here) with Rav Chaim, where he chastises someone strongly for being a Kanoi. The person is shocked, as he views Rav Chaim a a big Kanoi. Rav Chaim tells him that the difference between the two of them is that Rav Chaim cries (or feels pain, something along those lines) whenever he has to be a Kanoi. This guy enjoys it.
If the majority of people who engage in Kanoi acts are doing so improperly, should rabbonim discourage or encourage Kanoi acts publicly? If they publicly discourage, on a private level they can still encourage the few that they view as raui for it.
2) I don't know if I should laugh or cry at jersey girl's rfirst esponse. I have a hard time the person behind that is to be taken seriously after reading what was written.
Also, I wasn't criticizing the second case, I wasn't saying it was a kanoi act that shouldn't be allowed. I was just saying it as an example of people enjoying doing certain actions.
finally, from my experience protesting, yes, if I wasn't committed to a cause I wouldn't protest, but, at the same time, I got enjoyment out of it, as did many of the people I protested with.
From Rav Kaminetsky's criteria, that would seemingly disqualify me. That was the point I was trying to make.
"I never said you don't have a clue. I said you aren't sensitive enough."
ReplyDeleteRDE makes his LIVING being sensitive!! Sensitive IS his profession!!
And yet YOU don't think RDE is sensitive enough?
You write like a reporter covering the Jewish world, not like someone from inside it.