Monday, June 23, 2008

Do protests corrupt our society - or strengthen it?

The following response raises an important issue. I do agree that demonstrations have to be done in a reasonable and dignified way and that there have been responses in the past which were totally unacceptable. However I don't think that if a person protests one issue that of necessity he loses his ability to respond differently in other situations.

There is nothing inherently wrong with protesting - though it does need clear guidelines. Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky (Emes L'Yaakov Bereishis 49:7) - who was never accused of being a fanatic - asserted that the educational system must be in the hands of zealots. As the Chazon Ish has stated, religion which lacks passion is doomed.


The examples of beating up a woman on a bus or pouring acid - are obviously totally unacceptable - but don't mean that protests are invalid. There obviously needs to be an alternative to the extremes of violent protest and the attitude of passively accepting everything.

Do you also disapprove of the civil rights demonstrations in America or the demonstrations of the labor unions which brought about radical improvements of working conditions? What about the demonstrations for freeing Russian Jews? Demonstrations have a needed place in any society - but the question is how to do it to address the concerns you raise. Ignoring offense or injustice leaves you a different person then if you protested. This is a standard point of Chazal. See Ramban to Vayikra (19:17): "You shall not hate your brother in your heart; you shall chastise your neighbor, and not allow sin on his account." Do you believe in simply turning the other cheek?

However all this is probably a moot point since Rav Sternbuch told me that the police have prohibited counter demonstrations under threat of violent beatings.

=================================
R' Josh Waxman
said...

Aside from concerns I have aired on other posts, one *principle* reason I believe this approach of protest is misguided is as follows: The parade will come and go, whether you protest or not. But the encouragement to protest, and the rhetoric used, trains people to be kannaim. After you train people to react radically in *one* instance, they are more prone to act radically in other situations.

Do you really want your fellow Jews to be kannaim, to be Pinchases, in other situations? Even *if* this present situation merits it, you have to live with these people throughout the rest of the year.

The fellow who beat up the woman for daring to sit on the mehadrin bus -- he *also* was upset that such a terrible thing was being done in his holy Yerushalayim, on his holy mehadrin bus. The fellow who poured acid on that poor girl in Beitar Illit was horrified that a temptress would go about dressed like this in Israel. The same for those who pour bleach on clothing they deem non-tzniusdik. And the chareidim who protested the showing of a nature film on a flight to Uman. And so on and so forth. Perhaps you agree to one or two cases, but I would guess not to all of them.

However, the rhetoric used is equally applicable to all those other cases. And training people to react in this way will lead to an environment in which masses of people are kannaim.

Do you think that this is a positive direction for chareidi Judaism in Israel to take?

17 comments :

  1. Please give us a reference for your claim about Reb Yaakov. It makes no sense in light of everything else about him.

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  2. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  3. Regarding the poor girl from Beitar Ilit - this has been attributed to gang activity among young people who were new to the area. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MODESTY PATROL IN BEITAR ILIT.

    Here is a list of 198 non violent protests. Some may be acceptable to Judaism and some may not be.

    We hear a lot from people calling for Israel to be a secular democracy rather than a Jewish state. The rights of non violent protest in a secular democracy also apply to "haredim".

    198 METHODS OF NONVIOLENT PROTEST AND PERSUASION
    by Gene Sharp
    FORMAL STATEMENTS
    1. Public speeches
    2. Letters of opposition or support
    3. Declarations by organizations and institutions
    4. Signed public declarations
    5. Declarations of indictment and intention
    6. Group or mass petitions
    COMMUNICATIONS WITH A WIDER AUDIENCE
    7. Slogans, caricatures, and symbols
    8. Banners, posters, and displayed communications
    9. Leaflets, pamphlets, and books
    10. Newspapers and journals
    11. Records, radio, and television
    12. Skywriting and earthwriting
    GROUP REPRESENTATIONS
    13. Deputations
    14. Mock awards
    15. Group lobbying
    16. Picketing
    17. Mock elections
    SYMBOLIC PUBLIC ACTS
    18. Displays of flags and symbolic colors
    19. Wearing of symbols
    20. Prayer and worship
    21. Delivering symbolic objects
    22. Protest disrobings
    23. Destruction of own property
    24. Symbolic lights
    25. Displays of portraits
    26. Paint as protest
    27. New signs and names
    28. Symbolic sounds
    29. Symbolic reclamations
    30. Rude gestures
    PRESSURES ON INDIVIDUALS
    31. "Haunting" officials
    32. Taunting officials
    33. Fraternization
    34. Vigils
    DRAMA AND MUSIC
    35. Humorous skits and pranks
    36. Performances of plays and music
    37. Singing
    PROCESSIONS
    38. Marches
    39. Parades
    40. Religious processions
    41. Pilgrimages
    42. Motorcades
    HONORING THE DEAD
    43. Political mourning
    44. Mock funerals
    45. Demonstrative funerals
    46. Homage at burial places
    PUBLIC ASSEMBLIES
    47. Assemblies of protest or support
    48. Protest meetings
    49. Camouflaged meetings of protest
    50. Teach-ins
    WITHDRAWAL AND RENUNCIATION
    51. Walk-outs
    52. Silence
    53. Renouncing honours
    54. Turning one's back
    THE METHODS OF SOCIAL NONCOOPERATION
    OSTRACISM OF PERSONS
    55. Social boycott
    56. Selective social boycott
    57. Lysistratic nonaction
    58. Excommunication
    59. Interdict
    NONCOOPERATION WITH SOCIAL EVENTS, CUSTOMS, AND INSTITUTIONS
    60. Suspension of social and sports activities
    61. Boycott of social affairs
    62. Student strike
    63. Social disobedience
    64. Withdrawal from social institutions
    WITHDRAWAL FROM THE SOCIAL SYSTEM
    65. Stay-at-home
    66. Total personal noncooperation
    67. "Flight" of workers
    68. Sanctuary
    69. Collective disappearance
    70. Protest emigration (hijrat)
    ECONOMIC NONCOOPERATION
    ACTION BY CONSUMERS
    71. Consumers' boycott
    72. Nonconsumption of boycotted goods
    73. Policy of austerity
    74. Rent withholding
    75. Refusal to rent
    76. National consumers' boycott
    77. International consumers' boycott
    ACTION BY WORKERS AND PRODUCERS
    78. Workers' boycott
    79. Producers' boycott
    ACTION BY MIDDLE-PEOPLE
    80. Suppliers' and handlers' boycott
    ACTION BY OWNERS AND MANAGEMENT
    81. Traders' boycott
    82. Refusal to let or sell property
    83. Lockout
    84. Refusal of industrial assistance
    85. Merchants' "general strike"
    ACTION BY HOLDERS OF FINANCIAL RESOURCES
    86. Withdrawal of bank deposits
    87. Refusal to pay fees, dues, and assessments
    88. Refusal to pay debts or interest
    89. Severance of funds and credit
    90. Revenue refusal
    91. Refusal of a government's money
    ACTION BY GOVERNMENTS
    92. Domestic embargo
    93. Blacklisting of traders
    94. International sellers' embargo
    95. International buyers' embargo
    96. International trade embargo
    THE METHODS OF ECONOMIC NONCOOOPERATION
    SYMBOLIC STRIKES
    97. Protest strike

    98. Quickie walkout (lightning strike)
    AGRICULTURAL STRIKES
    99. Peasant strike
    100. Farm workers' strike
    STRIKES BY SPECIAL GROUPS
    101. Refusal of impressed labor
    102. Prisoners' strike
    103. Craft strike
    104. Professional strike
    ORDINARY INDUSTRIAL STRIKES
    105. Establishment strike
    106. Industry strike
    107. Sympathy strike
    RESTRICTED STRIKES
    108. Detailed strike
    109. Bumper strike
    110. Slowdown strike
    111. Working-to-rule strike
    112. Reporting "sick." (sick-in)
    113. Strike by resignation
    114. Limited strike
    115. Selective strike
    MULTI-INDUSTRY STRIKES
    116. Generalised strike
    117. General strike
    COMBINATION OF STRIKES AND ECONOMIC CLOSURES
    118. Hartal
    119. Economic shutdown
    THE METHODS OF POLITICAL NONCOOPERATION
    REJECTION OF AUTHORITY
    120. Withholding or withdrawal of allegiance
    121. Refusal of public support
    122. Literature and speeches advocating resistance
    CITIZENS' NONCOOPERATION WITH GOVERNMENT
    123. Boycott of legislative bodies
    124. Boycott of elections
    125. Boycott of government employment and positions
    126. Boycott of government departments, agencies, and other bodies
    127. Withdrawal from governmental educational institutions
    128. Boycott of government-supported institutions
    129. Refusal of assistance to enforcement agents
    130. Removal of own signs and placemarks
    131. Refusal to accept appointed officials
    132. Refusal to dissolve existing institutions
    CITIZENS' ALTERNATIVES TO OBEDIENCE
    133. Reluctant and slow compliance
    134. Nonobedience in absence of direct supervision
    135. Popular nonobedience
    136. Disguised disobedience
    137. Refusal of an assemblage or meeting to disperse
    138. Sitdown
    139. Noncooperation with conscription and deportation
    140. Hiding, escape, and false identities
    141. Civil disobedience of "illegitimate" laws
    ACTION BY GOVERNMENT PERSONNEL
    142. Selective refusal of assistance by government aides
    143. Blocking of lines of command and information
    144. Stalling and obstruction
    145. General administrative noncooperation
    146. Judicial noncooperation
    147. Deliberate inefficiency and selective noncooperation by enforcement agents
    148. Mutiny
    DOMESTIC GOVERNMENTAL ACTION
    149. Quasi-legal evasions and delays
    150. Noncooperation by constituent governmental units
    INTERNATIONAL GOVERNMENTAL ACTION
    151. Changes in diplomatic and other representation
    152. Delay and cancellation of diplomatic events
    153. Withholding of diplomatic recognition
    154. Severance of diplomatic relations
    155. Withdrawal from international organizations
    156. Refusal of membership in international bodies
    157. Expulsion from international organisations
    THE METHODS OF NONVIOLENT INTERVENTION
    PSYCHOLOGICAL INTERVENTION
    158. Self-exposure to the elements
    159. The fast (fast of moral pressure, hunger strike, satyagrahic fast)
    160. Reverse trial
    161. Nonviolent harassment
    PHYSICAL INTERVENTION
    162. Sit-in
    163. Stand-in
    164. Ride-in
    165. Wade-in
    166. Mill-in
    167. Pray-in
    168. Nonviolent raids
    169. Nonviolent air raids
    170. Nonviolent invasion
    171. Nonviolent interjection
    172. Nonviolent obstruction
    173. Nonviolent occupation
    SOCIAL INTERVENTION
    174. Establishing new social patterns
    175. Overloading of facilities
    176. Stall-in
    177. Speak-in
    178. Guerrilla theatre
    179. Alternative social institutions
    180. Alternative communication system
    ECONOMIC INTERVENTION
    181. Reverse strike
    182. Stay-in strike
    183. Nonviolent land seizure
    184. Defiance of blockades
    185. Politically motivated counterfeiting
    186. Preclusive purchasing
    187. Seizure of assets
    188. Dumping
    189. Selective patronage
    190. Alternative markets
    191. Alternative transportation systems
    192. Alternative economic institutions
    POLITICAL INTERVENTION
    193. Overloading of administrative systems
    194. Disclosing identities of secret agents
    195. Seeking imprisonment
    196. Civil disobedience of "neutral" laws
    197. Work-on without collaboration
    198. Dual sovereignty and parallel government
    This is available in Gene Sharp's book: "The Politics of Nonviolent Action", available fromThe War Resisters League, 339 Layfayette St. New York, N.Y. 10004 (212) 228-0450

    [Back to Activism Resource Page]

    [Back to Starhawk's Activism

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  4. There is nothing inherently wrong with protesting - though it does need clear guidelines. Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky - who was never accused of being a fanatic - asserted that the educational system must be in the hands of zealots. As the Chazon Ish has stated, religion which lacks passion is doomed.

    Agree, but passion needs to be channeled or else it becomes avodah zara (as chazal tabbed anger)

    The examples of beating up a woman on a bus or pouring acid - are obviously totally unacceptable - but don't mean that protests are invalid. There obviously needs to be a n alternative to the extremes of violent protest and the attitude of passively accepting everything.

    Interesting example of pragmatic halacha - what if philosophically you are right but the olam is not capable of protesting without a material component of unacceptable extremes - what does a posek do? what dfoes an individual who can control himself do?

    KT
    Joel Rich

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  5. Anonymous said...

    Please give us a reference for your claim about Reb Yaakov. It makes no sense in light of everything else about him.
    ===========================
    It makes eminent sense if you understand who he was.

    Reb Yaakov expresses these ideas in two places in Emes L'Yaakov

    Bereishis (34:13)
    Bereishis (49:7)

    Discussing that Yaakov reacted to their violent acts by appointing them as teachers - since only a kanoi can be a teacher. Only a person who cares strongly for others and is willing to moser nefesh for others can be a teacher.

    I'll see if I can translate it because he makes important points in distinguishing between the Shimon and Levi

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  6. R' Joel Rich:
    Interesting example of pragmatic halacha - what if philosophically you are right but the olam is not capable of protesting without a material component of unacceptable extremes - what does a posek do? what dfoes an individual who can control himself do?
    =====================
    Every parent has to deal with this as does any community leader. Reb Moshe says that any act of kana'os requires a psak. The Shomer Emunim Rebbe told me that if a person enjoys being a kanoi - he is not allowed to be one. It is not a game for excitement.

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  7. R'DE,
    I understand your point on an individual basis, but I assume the psak is for the community - so are you saying as a posek you tell the entire community not to protest if a material enough number can't control themselves?
    KT
    joel Rich

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  8. R' Joel Rich wrote:

    R'DE,
    I understand your point on an individual basis, but I assume the psak is for the community - so are you saying as a posek you tell the entire community not to protest if a material enough number can't control themselves?
    ============
    Yes - protest is like other halachos = there are circumstances where the protest should not be done. The cost/benefit analysis is to be done by the community leaders. Obviously there are differences of opinion. In the Mirrer Yeshiva signs were put up for the students not to demonstrate. The Gerrer Rebbe is against protests in this matter. We will have to wait and see the parameters of protest - especially since the police have threatened violence against the protesters.

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  9. Assuming that the quote from Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky is applicable to this situation, there is possibly a fine but critical difference between zealots (however he defines it) being teachers on the one hand, and teaching people to be zealots on the other.

    Time will tell whether there will be improper forms of protest of the gay pride parade this year. But that was not my point. The protests of the parade may well be carefully controlled. My point is that we are *conditioning* people to be zealots *in general*, to take offense on God's behalf at things which, according to their flavor of Judaism, is not permitted. The rhetoric encourages this mindset.

    My issue is that five months from now, well after the parade, someone will see chillul Shabbos because some chiloni is driving a car. And they will have a reaction of "how could such a violation of Hashem's Torah be done *in Yerushalayim*!" And then they will toss the stone.

    The Eida Chareidis, or Rav Elyashiv, will not be there at that point, carefully directing this individual's reaction. But they will have created, or cultured, the attitude of taking offense and coming into conflict with the person causing the offense.

    Indeed, Rav Kamenetzky, if I understand correctly (and I do not know that I do -- I would have to see it inside) was talking about channeling zealotry into situations where such traits are useful. But to create thousands of zealots, who are *not* then going into chinnuch and will not necessarily channel this zealotry appropriately, may well be a different issue.

    Kol Tuv,
    Josh

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  10. Wouldn't a kannoi by definition assume that he can not go for psak (or else he wouldn't qualify as a kannoi) but must act on his "pure" inclination?
    KT
    Joel Rich

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  11. R' Joel Rich

    Wouldn't a kannoi by definition assume that he can not go for psak (or else he wouldn't qualify as a kannoi) but must act on his "pure" inclination?
    =================
    No! See Igros Moshe E.H. 4:63 page 124

    שו"ת אגרות משה אבן העזר חלק ד סימן סג

    הקנאים שכתבת שרצו לבטל השידוך בשביל זה הם רחוקים מלהחשיבם במעלת קנאים לשם השם יתברך וצריכים להתבונן שאולי זה אצלם איסור אונאת דברים ואיסור חרם הקהלות וענין כבוד ת"ח, שאף כשמוכיחין על חטא אמרה תורה ולא תשא עליו חטא, ועיין במו"ק דף י"ז ע"א דאף ת"ח שסרח ונתחייב שמתא שצריך ליזהר בכבודו ועיין ברמב"ם רפ"ז מת"ת וביו"ד סימן של"ד סעיף מ"ב, וכשם שצריך לשאול מבעל הוראה בכל דיני התורה גם בתוכחה ובקנאות צריך לשאול מבעל הוראה ולא להורות בעצמם.

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  12. Interesting, so is it nishtaneh hateva or something that in time of gemara the assumption was a kannoi by defintion didn't ask, and now when he must? Or just using the same term but meaning a different category of individual?
    KT
    Joel Rich

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  13. Joel Rich said...

    "Interesting, so is it nishtaneh hateva or something that in time of gemara the assumption was a kannoi by defintion didn't ask, and now when he must? Or just using the same term but meaning a different category of individual?"

    Not nishtaneh hateva, noshtaneh hadorot. I think it means as you are asking, same term but different category of individuals. I also think that the situations today are different.

    Today intermarriage is not really a chillul hashem. The participants today are mainly tinukei sh'bnishba.

    Now granted that a gay parade in Yerushalyim ( or anywhere else in Israel in my opinion would be considered a chillul hashem) the participants also still have the category of tinuk sh'b'nishba.

    Also the Rambam describes the Kannoi as this meticulous tzaddik. The likes of which would be an endangered species today if he exists at all.

    Also thge sheila that this kannoi would ask is not the one that Reb Moshe was dealing with. The shaila of that kannoi (which he would not ask or is allowed to ask anyway) is in regards to killing people, not protests or civil disobedience.

    Your question has merit as the same terminology is being used to describe two totally different card games.

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  14. I want to modify what I said to Joel Rich. I would like to retract what I said about two different card games. Also the comment that I made in brackets regarding the fact that a kannoi is not allowed to ask a sheila. This is only in regards to the halacha of kanoim pogin bo. For other issues such as protests or public declarations this is not necessarily the case. However what I said about yoridot hadorot still stands.

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  15. the fact that a kannoi is not allowed to ask a sheila. This is only in regards to the halacha of kanoim pogin bo. For other issues such as protests or public declarations this is not necessarily the case.
    ============================
    OK - so for life and death he can't ask but for a protest he must? if you view kannoim pogim as a total chiddush, that's ok; if not.....
    KT
    joel rich
    KT
    Joel Rich

    ReplyDelete
  16. The Shomer Emunim Rebbe told me that if a person enjoys being a kanoi - he is not allowed to be one. It is not a game for excitement.

    Except from my experience on the ground in Yerushalayim, most of the people who protest are the ones who "enjoy" it.

    There are very very few who protest who actually don't draw enjoyment/excitement from it.

    Put it this way, I would hazard to say (hazard as no statistics, just based on views on the ground) that a larger percentage of people who view themselves kanoim are doing it for the wrong reasons (i.e. enjoyin it) then those who go to co-ed jewish schools (as most simply think its the best school for their children, albiet they might be mistaken).

    And this even in small cases, not major ones like have provoked this discussion.

    For example, I was waiting with my mother in the outskirts of bnei brak once for a bus. There were some chareidim, but as it was on the outskirts it wasn't really a chareidi area, and a chiloni soldier came with what I assume was his girlfriend. They held each other and kissed. An older woman scolded them harshly. However, it wasn't just scolding, there was an air of superiority, of being happy to scold them, of getting pleasure from it, as well as affirmations from the chareidim around her.

    Another example is a someone in the Mir had an issue with his baal dira, that the landlord wanted to kick them out to raise rent. R. Finkel said it was assur what the baal dira was doing. So a friend, who enjoys being a protester/nudnik was the one who stood outside when prospective renters came and told all of them "The Rosh Yeshiva says its assur". I'm not particularly arguing that this is a kanoi case and hence is wrong, I just bring it as an example of enjoying, and that the people who would tend to protest loudly are the ones who gain enjoyment on some level from it. I personally think the RY is well aware of this, and hence why the sign was up in the Mir not to protest (I also tend to think that talmidim in the Mir have the best opportunity to learn middot when compared against the other major chareidi yeshivot).

    At the end of the day, I really don't think you are sensitive enough to the facts on the street and what actually happens and how the majority actually feel.

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  17. Joel Rich said...
    "OK - so for life and death he can't ask but for a protest he must? if you view kannoim pogim as a total chiddush, that's ok; if not.....


    I think that you are mixing a few things up. That is probably because the term Kannoi here is being used to describe to separate species of fish.
    The torah concept of a kannoi. Like I said before, a pure tzaddik who is meticulous on every halacha whether bin adom l'çhavero or bin Hamakom. The classic case is where he is trying to prevent people from perpetrating a public chillul Hashem. He will go so far as to kill the participants if necessary to prevent or stop a chillul Hashem. The Rambam says that if this person actually is not completely perfect like he thinks that he is, he is committing murder. This would mean that he was not really a kannoi in the torah sense.

    This would put him in the category that if I can coin a phrase a "wanna be kannoi". The moderator of this blog was very kind in posting for us a t'shuva of Rav Moshe Feinstien on this very topic. If I interprited the t'shuva correctly, Rav Moshe is answering a sheila regarding whether or not it is permissible to protest or harass some people regarding a problematic shidduch. I am not aware of what the problem is. An intermarriage or a cohen marrying a divorcee? Whatever the problem was I do not know.

    Rav Moshe states that the so called kannoim that the questioner is asking him about are very far removed from having the status of kannoi l'shem hashem. Therefore they must ask sheilas regarding everything that they do.

    I am not a rabbi or a posek (except in my own mind) but I would say that most of todays "kannoim are similar to the ones that Rav Moshe is describing."

    ReplyDelete

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