Wednesday, February 18, 2009
Tuesday, February 17, 2009
Dangers of teaching complex issues publicly
[I am making this a post due to its cogency and relevance]
mekubal comment to "Sexual molestation is absolutely prohibited accord...":
Shoshi wrote: So I learned, that in general, when people start insulting you "You are too ignorant for me to explain you" it really means that the person insulting you does not know the answer and does not want to tell you.
I wonder what you would have said to R' Kaduri Z"L, who would say to people who asked too many questions, "You are not worthy to learn Kabblah, leave." Thus removing them from his Yeshiva. I have heard from students of his when he still taught at Beit E-l that he would do the same there, effectively kicking people out of someone else's Yeshiva. That can be independantly verified from R' Tzadok of Kosher Torah.com.
Or what you would have said to my first Magid Shiur at BMG who started the Zman by saying, "I will gladly answer any question you may have once you know enough to ask a proper question."
The truth is that if one is given too much information before a proper foundation is laid it can lead to confusion and even kefira. I have no intention of insulting you when I say that your level of learning is not on a par where it can easily enter this type of discussion. This is all in the realms of Dayyanim, which is far more learning than most Rabbis will ever do. Most Rabbis never spend any serious amount of time learning these laws, let alone trying to become expert in them. One can only become a Dayyan after become a Rav(a process that takes a number of years) then one has to have the ability(financial) and willingness to devote 10-15 more years to study of these sorts of laws before one can become fluent in them. Most other Semichut the Rabbinute gives a single exam, for Dayyanut there are five consecutive exams that one takes over a course of years when one has prepared appropriately for each. Personally I have taken and passed the first two, that has taken 4 years. So please excuse me or D"T if we tell you that you are swimming in deep waters, and possibly waters that are out of your depth.
I have endeavored to answer each of your questions, asking only that you actually thoroughly read the answers before making assumptions. You seem to want full and complete answers not just sources. The truth is because of the nature of the topic and the amount of information involved a full treatment cannot be done on a blog. Not only would an exhaustive treatment take ample space, it would, because of the public nature of the blog violate the prohibitions of teaching Torah to non-Jews.
I truly don't think that you fully grasp the complexity of your question, if for no other reason than you don't seem to understand the unfounded assumptions that you are basing it on. There are two parts to your question, one is halakhic and the other is haskafic. However, the hashkafa has to be settled before we move on to the halacha.
For instance you want a guilty party to have to make some kind of reparations for mental health care. You are assuming that mental health care is a valid form of healing and that it is in line with Torah values. Take for instance this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS2G4_CeMCY
I post that because I know the Rosh Yeshiva he learned that from.
Then there is the perspective of others such as R' Mordechai Goldstein Shlit"a, who claims that psychology/psychiatry can diagnose accurate problems but is useless to resolve or heal them. He claims that is the shitta of the Yeshiva where he learned(Chafetz Haim), and has passed that on to each of his students at his own Yeshiva. Furthermore each of his former students that have started their own Yeshivas(at least each of the one's I have spent any time at) hold the same opinion. They have passed this on to their students, some of whom are Dayyanim that will hear cases.
On the other side of the spectrum you have R' Twerski(whom I personally agree with) and Nefesh. Each side believes that it is upholding Torah with its view points. Who is right who is wrong, who can decide? Both sides have Gedolim backing them.
Those view points will radically dertermine different paths and different solutions to the problems that you give. For instance if one does not believe in mental illness, but rather that "problems" are simply a lack of emunah, middot development and Torah Study, then for instance their is no such thing as a serial abuser who has a mental problem. Rather it is simply someone who has sinned, or who has not yet mastered the teivot. Thus why should they be imprisoned or punished? They need rather to be taught and helped. They need proper musar, and chizuk. Maybe they need to make a tikun for an aveira in a past life. You don't have to take my word for it, see the move "Trembling Before God." Granted it deals with homosexuality(though one of the individuals claims to have "improper feelings" for his school children) which is not classified as a mental illness, but nevertheless is a deviance according to Torah. You will see the variety of approaches portrayed there.
There are like streams of reasoning dealing with the victims, but because they disgust me I will not share them here. It is enough to say that there are Torah opinions that, because of their view on psychology and other things, essentially blame the victims for their ongoing problems.
Once those issues are sorted one can move on to halachic issues. As if the halacha was not already complex enough, you have to factor in the above into any decision of a B"D. Their Hashkafa will determine their interpretation of halacha. Simply look at the various posts on this blog about conversion to see how that plays out in a different realm of halacha. In general the less quantifiable a problem, the more complex will be the resulting halachic dispute.
[see rest of post as comment to "Sexual molestation is absolutely prohibited accord..."]
Or what you would have said to my first Magid Shiur at BMG who started the Zman by saying, "I will gladly answer any question you may have once you know enough to ask a proper question."
The truth is that if one is given too much information before a proper foundation is laid it can lead to confusion and even kefira. I have no intention of insulting you when I say that your level of learning is not on a par where it can easily enter this type of discussion. This is all in the realms of Dayyanim, which is far more learning than most Rabbis will ever do. Most Rabbis never spend any serious amount of time learning these laws, let alone trying to become expert in them. One can only become a Dayyan after become a Rav(a process that takes a number of years) then one has to have the ability(financial) and willingness to devote 10-15 more years to study of these sorts of laws before one can become fluent in them. Most other Semichut the Rabbinute gives a single exam, for Dayyanut there are five consecutive exams that one takes over a course of years when one has prepared appropriately for each. Personally I have taken and passed the first two, that has taken 4 years. So please excuse me or D"T if we tell you that you are swimming in deep waters, and possibly waters that are out of your depth.
I have endeavored to answer each of your questions, asking only that you actually thoroughly read the answers before making assumptions. You seem to want full and complete answers not just sources. The truth is because of the nature of the topic and the amount of information involved a full treatment cannot be done on a blog. Not only would an exhaustive treatment take ample space, it would, because of the public nature of the blog violate the prohibitions of teaching Torah to non-Jews.
I truly don't think that you fully grasp the complexity of your question, if for no other reason than you don't seem to understand the unfounded assumptions that you are basing it on. There are two parts to your question, one is halakhic and the other is haskafic. However, the hashkafa has to be settled before we move on to the halacha.
For instance you want a guilty party to have to make some kind of reparations for mental health care. You are assuming that mental health care is a valid form of healing and that it is in line with Torah values. Take for instance this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
I post that because I know the Rosh Yeshiva he learned that from.
Then there is the perspective of others such as R' Mordechai Goldstein Shlit"a, who claims that psychology/psychiatry can diagnose accurate problems but is useless to resolve or heal them. He claims that is the shitta of the Yeshiva where he learned(Chafetz Haim), and has passed that on to each of his students at his own Yeshiva. Furthermore each of his former students that have started their own Yeshivas(at least each of the one's I have spent any time at) hold the same opinion. They have passed this on to their students, some of whom are Dayyanim that will hear cases.
On the other side of the spectrum you have R' Twerski(whom I personally agree with) and Nefesh. Each side believes that it is upholding Torah with its view points. Who is right who is wrong, who can decide? Both sides have Gedolim backing them.
Those view points will radically dertermine different paths and different solutions to the problems that you give. For instance if one does not believe in mental illness, but rather that "problems" are simply a lack of emunah, middot development and Torah Study, then for instance their is no such thing as a serial abuser who has a mental problem. Rather it is simply someone who has sinned, or who has not yet mastered the teivot. Thus why should they be imprisoned or punished? They need rather to be taught and helped. They need proper musar, and chizuk. Maybe they need to make a tikun for an aveira in a past life. You don't have to take my word for it, see the move "Trembling Before God." Granted it deals with homosexuality(though one of the individuals claims to have "improper feelings" for his school children) which is not classified as a mental illness, but nevertheless is a deviance according to Torah. You will see the variety of approaches portrayed there.
There are like streams of reasoning dealing with the victims, but because they disgust me I will not share them here. It is enough to say that there are Torah opinions that, because of their view on psychology and other things, essentially blame the victims for their ongoing problems.
Once those issues are sorted one can move on to halachic issues. As if the halacha was not already complex enough, you have to factor in the above into any decision of a B"D. Their Hashkafa will determine their interpretation of halacha. Simply look at the various posts on this blog about conversion to see how that plays out in a different realm of halacha. In general the less quantifiable a problem, the more complex will be the resulting halachic dispute.
[see rest of post as comment to "Sexual molestation is absolutely prohibited accord..."]
Sunday, February 15, 2009
Nefesh Conference on abuse
JPost writes:
Abuse of women, children and the elderly in the religious Jewish community was long denied, on the grounds that observance of the Torah and Talmud prevented it. Physical, sexual, emotional, economic and other types of maltreatment of the weak, claimed this sector, occurs among secular Jews, but "not in our camp."
But this has been disproven by infamous cases of child abuse reported recently in the general media, and the opening of shelters for battered women in haredi neighborhoods.
THE RECENT ninth Jerusalem conference of ATEM Nefesh-Israel - an organization of observant social workers, psychologists, psychiatrists and other therapists - had several sessions devoted to this topic. Although all the 200 or so participants were religious (most of them women), the public nature of the conference at the Bayit Vegan Guesthouse constituted a welcome airing of the religious community's "dirty laundry," though some rabbis still insist on hiding it. The organization of religious therapists was founded by Shaare Zedek Medical Center neuropsychologist Dr. Judith Guedalia and geriatric social worker and Melabev found Leah Abramowitz.
Clearly, most religious Jewish men are good or excellent husbands and fathers. No data were provided on how common abuse is in the religious - especially haredi - community, and how it compares with the secular community, but the fact that it was discussed is a healthy phenomenon.
"Twenty years ago, no one would dream of talking openly about violence in the religious family," said Rabbi Dr. Benjamin (Benny) Lau. The modern Orthodox rabbi - who is director of the Center for Judaism and Society, heads Jerusalem's Institute for Social Justice at Beit Morasha, serves as rabbi of the Ramban Synagogue in the Katamon quarter and lectures on Jewish law and social justice at Bar-Ilan University - delivered a keynote address at the conference. "If a community gives a legitimacy to violence and abuse, these can happen. There are closets in haredi society that are still not open."
AN EYE-OPENING workshop on "Spiritual Abuse" of haredi women opened the closet door a crack. Dr. Nicole Dahan, a social worker at the Ariel University Center and Tzipi Levy, a social worker in the Jerusalem Municipality, have done much to put this subject on the public agenda.
While until recently, men's abuse of their partners was known to involve physical, emotional, sexual and verbal violence, as well as economic abuse and the reduction of freedom, Levy and Dahan discovered that some haredi men use God and the commandments to abuse their wives. [...]
But this has been disproven by infamous cases of child abuse reported recently in the general media, and the opening of shelters for battered women in haredi neighborhoods.
THE RECENT ninth Jerusalem conference of ATEM Nefesh-Israel - an organization of observant social workers, psychologists, psychiatrists and other therapists - had several sessions devoted to this topic. Although all the 200 or so participants were religious (most of them women), the public nature of the conference at the Bayit Vegan Guesthouse constituted a welcome airing of the religious community's "dirty laundry," though some rabbis still insist on hiding it. The organization of religious therapists was founded by Shaare Zedek Medical Center neuropsychologist Dr. Judith Guedalia and geriatric social worker and Melabev found Leah Abramowitz.
Clearly, most religious Jewish men are good or excellent husbands and fathers. No data were provided on how common abuse is in the religious - especially haredi - community, and how it compares with the secular community, but the fact that it was discussed is a healthy phenomenon.
"Twenty years ago, no one would dream of talking openly about violence in the religious family," said Rabbi Dr. Benjamin (Benny) Lau. The modern Orthodox rabbi - who is director of the Center for Judaism and Society, heads Jerusalem's Institute for Social Justice at Beit Morasha, serves as rabbi of the Ramban Synagogue in the Katamon quarter and lectures on Jewish law and social justice at Bar-Ilan University - delivered a keynote address at the conference. "If a community gives a legitimacy to violence and abuse, these can happen. There are closets in haredi society that are still not open."
AN EYE-OPENING workshop on "Spiritual Abuse" of haredi women opened the closet door a crack. Dr. Nicole Dahan, a social worker at the Ariel University Center and Tzipi Levy, a social worker in the Jerusalem Municipality, have done much to put this subject on the public agenda.
While until recently, men's abuse of their partners was known to involve physical, emotional, sexual and verbal violence, as well as economic abuse and the reduction of freedom, Levy and Dahan discovered that some haredi men use God and the commandments to abuse their wives. [...]
Thursday, February 12, 2009
Wednesday, February 11, 2009
Subbotnik Jews of Ilyinka are Jews
Shalom.
I saw the post on your blog today regarding the Subbotnik Jews of Russia, and was simply astonished at its tone and content. With all due respect - and I do respect talmidei chachamim - I would like to bring to your attention the attached article from the haredi newspaper HaMevaser which appeared last month.
In it, Maran HaGaon HaRav Elyashiv Shlit"a is quoted as ruling that the Subbotnik Jews of the village of Ilyinka in southern Russia are "yehudim kasherim lechol davar". While HaRav Elyashiv's pesak relates specifically to Ilyinka, I humbly suggest that in light of this, your headline to the effect that "Subbotniks are not Jewish" warrants correction.
In it, Maran HaGaon HaRav Elyashiv Shlit"a is quoted as ruling that the Subbotnik Jews of the village of Ilyinka in southern Russia are "yehudim kasherim lechol davar". While HaRav Elyashiv's pesak relates specifically to Ilyinka, I humbly suggest that in light of this, your headline to the effect that "Subbotniks are not Jewish" warrants correction.
Michael Freund
Rabbi Triebitz - Development of Talmud
I would like to recommend - for the serious students - Rabbi Triebitz' website hashkafacircle.com. Especially of interest is his speculation on the development of the Talmud.
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