Devarim (22:05) The woman shall not wear that which belongs to a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment; for all who do so are abomination to the Lord your God.
Rambam (Avoda Zara 12:10) A woman should not adorn herself as a man does - e.g., she may not place a turban or a hat on her head or wear armor or the like. She may not cut the hair of her head as men do.A man should not adorn himself as a woman does - e.g., he should not wear colored garments or golden bracelets in a place where such garments and such bracelets are worn only by women. Everything follows local custom. A man who adorns himself as a woman does, and a woman who adorns herself as a man does, are liable for lashes. When a man removes white hairs from among the dark hairs of his head or beard, he should be lashed as soon as he removes a single hair, because he has beautified himself as a woman does. Similarly, if he dyes his hair dark, he is given lashes after dyeing a single hair.
Minchas Yitzchok (II #108) It is absolutely prohibited for women to wear modern pants even if they are the colors that men would not wear. Since these are disgusting garments and are designed to cause sin. Inj addition they are prohibited as male attire even if they are altered to be different then the pants males wear. .
Rav Ovadia Yosef (VI YD #14.7) Question: Is it better for girls who insist on wearing very short skirts to be encouraged to wear pants instead? Answer I agree that women and girls should not be totally permitted to wear pants because they are licentious garments and they draw more attention to be looked at than the dresses or skirts they normally wear and thus cause lustful thoughts. Proper Jewish women should not wear them at all especially the tight ones. Nevertheless for those who insist on wearing very short skirts despite the protest of parents and teachers it is best to pick the lesser evil and ask them to wear pants instead.
Rav Ovadia Yosef (VI YD #14.8) Question: Is it better for girls to wear pants instead of short skirts?Answer:It is absolutely prohibited to wear short garments even if they also wear transparent stockings. It is especially a problem for students siting in very short garments before a male teacher who is teaching them about holiness. The thousands of young men who died in the recent Yom Kippur War, perhaps they died because of the sin of immodesty of the women. In addition following fashion trends and wearing mini dresses is a violation of the prohibition of not being like the goyim. Thus it is obligatory to chastise those who wear short garments especially the students in the religious schools and encourage them to be modest
Rav Ovadia Yosef (VI YD #14.8) Question: Is it better for girls to wear pants instead of short skirts?Answer: In conclusion regarding the actual halacha. It is absolutely prohibited for women and girls to wear short dresses or skirts which are called mini. There is also the Torah prohibition not to be like the goyim and therefore they should not be given permission to wear them since they are despicable and immodest It is best to try and reason with them to only wear modest clothing that covers the knee when they are seated. However if they won’t listen to reason to dress modestly. It is better that they wear pants than mini dresses and skirts until they can be influenced to wear modest clothing.
2 separate issues. Cross dressing and modesty.
ReplyDeleteIn shemot 20 we see skirts are problematic
כב וְלֹא-תַעֲלֶה בְמַעֲלֹת, עַל-מִזְבְּחִי: אֲשֶׁר לֹא-תִגָּלֶה עֶרְוָתְךָ, עָלָיו
Hareidim are a strange bunch, they see
Long skirts as more immoral than short ones
And as I've previously stated, wearing the right over left on a jacket or coat is the fashion for women, whereas for men it is left over right.
ReplyDeleteBtw, do frum Kabbalah people also tailor their shirts to be right over left (buttons on the left)?
Lo yilbash
Yes right over left is an established practice for men for centuries. Why not look it up? And one of the first to bring it is... the Kabbaliat? No. It's the Ketzos HaChoshen!!
DeleteSorry should have said Sefer Ketzos Hashulchan 3:4.
DeleteThat being said, The Chazon Ish was also particular to wear right over left ie that the buttons be placed on the left side and the holes on the right side (as cited in the Sefer Orchos Rabbeinu vol. 1 page 227). The Sefer Taamei Haminhagim (5 in a footnote) writes that the common custom is to place the buttons on the left side,
Thank you
Delete> The thousands of young men who died in the recent Yom Kippur War, perhaps they died because of the sin of immodesty of the women
ReplyDeleteIsn't it always convenience that when Jews die, there's a Rav ready to pop up and blame his favourite sin? Never mind all the other considerations as to why so many good Jewish men died. It was because of women not dressing properly! Uh huh.
Blanket prohibitions make no sense.
There are long skirts that are so tight that they leave little to the imagination. There are long, loose pants that obscure almost everything. According to these teshuvos, the long, slinky skirt is to be preferred?
Oh I didn't see that. So perhaps that is more reason to have Yeshiva boys in the army, because they dress so frum, that they will be invincible.
DeleteMy father, a"h, used to say that there's a special place in Hell for rabbis who know what God was thinking when tragedies happen. He was referring to all the rabbis who knew why the Holocaust happens but it's a generalizable principle.
DeleteI recall in 1985 there was a school bus accident where a lot of children were killed and a rabbi immediately declared that it was because people in Petach Tikvah didn't keep Shabbos. The one that always bugs me is the Tosfos Yom Tov's "Chilemnicki happened because people talked in shul!"
Life is incredibly complex. God is infintely more complex than life. To reduce everything to "And this is why is happened" is not proper thinking.
Garnel again shows his hatred for chachomom, for Daas Torah and for people much smarter and more educated than him. He's essentially an apikorus. Don't touch my wine. You self aggrandizing fool. Now I have to go decompress. Not sure why I even come to this website to read such idiocy.
DeleteIKR. Tosafos Yom Tov "bothers" him. Yoish. What a baby. Can't handle people who have greater insight. Zero humility and even less smarts.
DeleteMaybe you don't understand what Rav Heller was saying
Delete400 years ago, people did not have the same views and freedom that are today. People would have asked him to explain. Or he wanted to put fear into people who talk in shul.
He was not a Navi. Just a great Rav
Why do you come to this website, other than to attack Garner? You never make an independent comment that's not involving him. Troll is your name 📛
DeleteI've made many independent comments. I just prefer to remain opaque in my identity. I see that bothers you. And Garnel is the troll here, clearly. I call him out on that. You know im right.
DeleteMany rabbis disagree with previous generations of rabbonim. Sometimes even in strong terms. In fact Hareidim belittle anyone who was rational, even the Rambam, Ralbag, etc
DeleteBut not seen any people commenting here the way you do, so if you make independent comments you are not scathing of anyone. Furthermore, you keep shape shifting and trolling.
Depends on your definition of trolling i guess. And Garnel never said he has semicha. He's a baal habayis at best and an am haaretz more likely
DeleteSo does semicha allow one to ass questions or raise kashes?
DeleteOr are you going to say that only the greatest gadol of the generation, like the Gra, or Rambam himself can question previous generations?
Maybe the Tosafos Yom Tov would allow questions, especially if he was in this generation. And in any case, many other Gedolim have said it is difficult or impossible to understand such things. Look at Iyov or Koheleth. Seems there are 2 views, since we are also meant to look at our deeds when we chas vshalom experience suffering.
"ask questions"... typo
DeleteWho is shape shifting?
DeleteFirst you said "Many rabbis disagree with previous generations of rabbonim" and I noted that our resident apikorus doesn't have semicha.
Then you duck and weave and say "So does semicha allow one to ass questions or raise kashes?"
If you want to change the topic thats fine. I can address your new concern too. But you are now avoiding the main issue which you apparently concede.
Tosafos Yom Tov was a Gadol and a tzaddik. Garnel Mr. Anonymous hiding behind a screen name Canadian doctor apikorus is not. He isn't the dust on the TYT feet.
DeleteNot shape shifting. He's raising a reasonable question. So you admit it is permitted for a Rav to ask questions, but not a Baal habayis/House doctor? Rabbis should be stricter than regular guys not more lenient. Why do you emulate what your Rav does, but don't allow others to do it if it offends you?
DeleteThe only issue is whether it's a good sevara or not.
Listen. There is asking questions, and there is throwing off of the Ol Torah flippantly. Garnel said "The one that always bugs me is the Tosfos Yom Tov's "Chilemnicki happened because people talked in shul!" Life is incredibly complex. God is infintely more complex than life. To reduce everything to "And this is why is happened" is not proper thinking." Ad kan divrei hamaschil.
DeleteThat's not mere disagreement to me. It's next level. He didn't ask a Rov or anyone. It's conjured out of things air. And it's using his own common sense which is how we got down this path.
Thin air.
DeleteWell, I agree, with a Gaon who is last of Rishonim or first of Acharonim, got to tread more carefully than when responding to a pashkevil somewhere in meah shearim
DeletePretty tough talk from a guy who can't even spell my name correctly. Too many letter, perhaps?
DeleteYes, I would like to know how the TYT cold boil down the murder of 600 000 Jews, a tragedy unparalleled in Jewish history since the Churban Sheni and until the Shoah? I would like to ask him and I have that right. We are not Catholics with their infallible Popes who can issue decrees that are beyond questioning.
As for the Semicha point, I'll remind you (since you clearly don't know) that the Gr"a did not have semicha and that didn't stop him from achieving the greatness that he did.
Once again those who considering themselves guardians of Torah purity show themselves to be common menuvalim.
Poor Garnel. Even Yom Kippur won't atone for his sins.
DeleteReally? When did He tell you that? Because I was speaking with Him this morning and He didn't seem displeased at all.
DeleteTalking to God is prayer. Hearing him speak back is schizophrenia
DeleteAs I mentioned im willing to address the question of whether a Rov can ask a question. I didn't get there yet. So it's not shetika so don't assume I agreed please
ReplyDeleteRambam sometimes is critical of previous generations, in Issurei Biah, he says the Geonim had Sadducee influence which led them to paskening in a certain way..
DeleteThe Gra says something sharp against the Rambam, being influenced by Philosophy. The Baal Hatanya says something mocking about the Gra.
Try writing some independent posts, instead of adhering to GI and being part of his gilgul
DeleteI would like to apologize to the readers of this blog and to the host for my infantile behavior and posts over the past many months and years. I accept upon myself to stop spewing stupidity and apikorsus and as a kapporah I will offer my medical services pro Bono to the next 500 patients who visit me.
ReplyDeleteAn imposter?
DeleteWell duh. At least he spelt my name right this time.
DeleteClearly
ReplyDeleteBilaam and the donkey
Delete