Modern Orthodox communities tend to be open to some level of working together with other Jewish denominations on issues of common concern, as long as the Orthodox retain their autonomy over their own religious institutions. In contrast, R. Hirsch was a fierce champion of austritt, or separation. Several scholars have wondered why a rabbi with cultural openness toward Gentile wisdom would be closed to working with other Jewish denominations. Prof. Mordechai Breuer enumerates various approaches, but I am partial to Breuer’s own approach. R. Hirsch was a man of yosher or truth. He did not deny the truth that Gentile wisdom had something to contribute and that we could benefit from studying it. For the same reason, he could not work with a group whose ideology he viewed as a distortion of the truths of Torah.[1]
In teaching them the languages of the civilized nations and introducing them to their literature we give them the key with which, when they are grown up, they can gain entrance to the intellectual creations of the peoples and feed and enrich their minds with all that is good and noble and true in the contributions of the noblest spirits to the realm of knowledge. (Judaism Eternal, vol. 1, p. 219)
I wonder if RSRH's popularity in the MO world is due to his Torah commentary being one of the first widespread English ones? Because he was not MO and his descendants are definitely on the Agudah side of things.
ReplyDeleteThe difference with RSRH is that he was fine with secular knowledge where it enhanced Torah. There's a difference between learning about geography and listening to a Reformer's invented drek.
When was Hirsch's Chumash translated to English?
DeleteWait, ..
Deletehe had a yeshiva_university program in the same building. His students all had PhDs. He was a master Torah scholar.
When Rav David tzvi Hoffman visited , Hirsch reprimanded him for wearing a kippa.
They went to gentile concerts.
Oh, so that makes him chareidi. Yea, makes perfect sense now.
First, yes: https://seforimcenter.com/The-Hirsch-Chumash---Complete-Set-Larger-Format---5-vol.__p-9777.aspx
DeleteThe original was in German with Hebrew sections for the quotes from original texts. The big deal was when a Hebrew edition finally came out.
"one of the first widespread English ones"
DeleteNope, the Hertz Chumash by the British Chief Rabbi was published around 1930 in English. So it must have been one of the earliest, as it was essentially British Empire and America at that point where Jews spoke English.
S. R Hirsch was popularised in around 1986, because the Hareidim didn't like Rav Hertz's great scholarship. The irony is that They don't like Rav Shimshon Refuel Hirsh's Derech Eretz or his interest in Hegelian dialectics either.
Comment to Anon - before you are removed try using a pen name-
DeleteTIDE is not exactly the same as MO. But it is closer to MO than it is to Hareidism of E. Europe. Your observations about how the remnants of Hamburg immigrants practice in America today is meaningless. Hirsch is dead, and so is the community he led. I know one gentleman who is now a Lubavticher but was showing me photographs of his ancestor from the Hirsch community. Big deal it doesn't make Hirsch a lubavitcher, which is what your logic suggests.
I am anon4:07
DeleteBennet Ave community still claims to represent RSRH practices.
Haredism of Eastern Europe does not exist today, anywhere
Actually, it never really existed in Eastern Europe either
Few avoided gebroxt, few ate (real) chalak (although almost all meat sold today Is absolutely not chalak, it's call glatt, but it's not chalak, ask any shochet), and overwhelming majority of vilna was mechallel Shabbat bePharhesia.
So just like you say TIDE is (or is not) closer than haredism, check the facts. And it's Frankfurt, not Hamburg.
Also, Slabodka did not allow facial hair on talmidim (exceptions only for chassidic talmidim). And most talmidim wore colored shirts. And not Stetson borsalino type hats. The CC wore a baseball style cap, flat at the top, I forget what it's called.. You'll be thrown out of any charedi yeshiva today if you tried that.
I see. But your anon comments are wiped, so I don't remember exactly what you wrote. You were saying that tide is not mo.
DeleteProblem is there is no tide today. In Germany there was also the Hildsheimer yeshiva, which was more MO than its Frankfurt cousin.
There's another argument, that YU has different streams.so Rav schachter is close to Rav Kamenetsky. I don't know who the OU represents, but it's not exclusively Mo.
The Hirschian policy against reform was a traditional Jewish thing, it was also done by Rav Emden and Rav hagiz against shabbetai zvi movement.
These heretical groups were dangerous.
Reform in America today is a bad joke, compared to the German original.
I see your point about e Europe.
But they still attacked Hildsheimer and ignored Hirsch.
As Prof Shapiro proved in one of his books, Modern Chareidism(tm) isn't what Chareidism was in the Alte Heim, it's what they want everyone to believe it was in the Alte Heim.
DeleteI wouldn't call Hildesheimer (Berlin) a cousin of Frankfurt.
DeleteThe Lubavitcher Rebbe z"l claimed smicha from RYYW (Hildesheimer) or the Rogachover. He's obviously hazy on which one. So much for MO leanings
The real objection by the litvish world today is the fact that they looked down on all German Orthodox. Even the austrit community. In America, the austrits became involved with Agudah of America, so they're kosher to the American charedi community (at least the Augudists). . In Israel, almost all charedim hate each other (unless they're related).
By the way, Rav Dovid Tzvi Hoffman was the VP of the original Agudah in Europe, though today, he'd be considered MO.
Frau Sarah Schnierer was a (converted) Hirschian, and even had college level courses (such as psychology) in her seminaries. And they taught in Deutsch, even in Poland.
I'll try to reconstruct my original comments. Hopefully, Rabbi Dr Eidenson can put it back.
DeleteAll of RSRH's writings were in German, the Chumash was translated by Feldheim (also Frankfurter from Monsey) early 1980s to English, and I guess there's a Hebrew edition. The yekkes have a mission to translate all his writings (and their reconstructed history) into English.
The Hertz Chumash uses the JPS (approx 1900) (Philadelphia) translation, with Rav Hertz's commentary below the line. It's basically acceptable to Orthodox hashkafot, though today ... Artscroll ...
Thank you.
DeleteWhat has lubavitcher Rebbe have to do with anything? He went to university as well. So why can't he learn under Rav Hildsheimer?
Rav Hoffman also was at Hirsch's school, then moved to Hildsheimer.
I used "cousin" to show thru were not brothers or same group. Both were T & secular studies. Call it DE or Madda, they are cousins
Also the Rogatchover Gaon wore one of those flat caps.
In those days, rabbis didn't shave their heads like criminals.
There are pictures of Gedolim with long hair.
The Frankfurt community doesn't exist snymore. No one lives in Washington Heights anymore, though the yeshiva (K-12 plus a small bet Medrash) still exists (some come into Bennet Ave Washington Heights from Teaneck and Monsey.,). Their talmidim go on to BMG.
DeleteThe community moved to NJ and Monsey. And Aliyah.
Though of course, (good) intermarriage.
Regarding relations with other yekke communities, RSRH was notorious for opposing like-minded Rabbonim if they didn't approve of his opinions 100%. (Though I presume they still married each other, but I might want confirmation of that. They did marry with gemeinde (non austrit) families and did bury in gemeinde cemeteries, a major point of contention at begining of the schism.
Supposedly, RSRH got rid of Kol Nidrei. (I'd like confirmation of that today.)
DeleteAlso, one of the Yikum Porkons. And wearing a talit over the head.
They never had a minhag of Yizkor, but they started it cause of (good) intermarriage requests.
2nd edition of Hertz is published in 1937, where he acknowledges the JPS translation.
DeleteThe approach of chief rabbi Hertz was to disprove all the reform and criticism arguments, with help of non Jewish scholars if necessary.
He even brings a Karaite hacham argument to disprove xtianity allegations.
The Hirsch Chumash was not too successful in English.
Btw Kaplan's Chumash is used in some places, but obviously I don't think it's a translation at all. It's him imposing his beliefs on the text.
The Hertz Chumash was an important commentary to serve a specific function, like KA said. His notes at the end of each Chumash are also quite important even if some are dated now.
DeleteThe advantage is that you can read the entire parasha in a couple of hours, maybe less if you're a quick reader.
The Hirsch Chumash, on the other hand, is amazing for its comprehensive approach and its thorough reconciliation of B'chtav and Ba'al Peh, showing them to be completely linked. But it's long and you can't do some parshiyos over a quiet Shabbos afternoon.
Kaplan's Chumash was briefly popular because it was a "Modern English" translation but never really took off because it didn't have Artscroll's weight behind it.
I feel bad for the latest entry into the market - the Steinsaltz Chumash. If you ignore the cheap thin paper they used, it's quite a good Chumash but it's hard to find a place when everyone is already stocked up on Artscrolls.
DeleteOh yes, Koren publishers have that annoying thin paper, I have one of their siddurim.
DeleteIf you know enough Hebrew the mikraot gedolot can be very rewarding.
There's often things I don't understand because of the style of the meforshim or words I don't get
But overall it's great.
I just find Rashi script very difficult to follow
There's a Scottish rabbi who is quite popular, and learned at Gateshead. He goes on a lot of rants. He was once trying to tie the Holocaust to silly things, eg that German Tide orthodox had a kosher meat or sausage that was made to taste like chazir.
ReplyDeleteIt's probably the same hareidi (uneducated) hatred he picked up in Gateshead.
Unfortunately.
“Yalta said to Rav Nacḥman: All that the Merciful One has prohibited to us, He permitted to us something similar” (Chulin 109b)
3:39 was me
ReplyDeleteBseder
DeleteHe's still going to delete it.
Although some spam with name manages to stay
Whilst the current remains of the Frankfurt community deny that Hirsch was MO, it is clear and obvious that he was not Hareidi.
ReplyDeleteA proof of this is the fact that Rav Hutner was planning to set up a hybrid Yeshiva - University programme, together with Rav Shraga Mendelowitz, but this was shut down by pressure from rav Kotler.
After this, Rav Hutner became more extreme hareidi.
Secular knowledge is the antithesis of "hareidism". Even when there are Psychologists, they have to Kasher and chalak their field to make it acceptable.
TIDE had little place for present style zionism; nor liberal pseudo orthodox postmodernist wokism or prior feminism.
ReplyDelete& the most significant chasm with virtually any form of modern orthdoxy-
RSRH refused to an oration for Goethe because he considered him immoral
7. Rabbi Hirsch's attitude to German culture
DeleteRabbi Hirsch's attitude toward German was not the same as that of the other
traditionalists of his time who were conversant in that language. To the latter, it was a
language they knew and employed, but nevertheless a non-Jewish language. Rabbi
Hirsch, on the other hand, had a deep emotional feeling for German and a strong
attachment to German culture that also went far beyond the modest requirements set
down by the conservative Maskilim who advocated practical subjects as necessitated by
social and economic considerations. Rabbi Hirsch had been educated in a gymnasium
focusing on humanistic studies. Influenced by the atmosphere in his family who
encouraged secular studies, he appreciated the humanistic spirit which permeated the
German cultural climate as well as the aesthetics. In the first of the Nineteen Letters,
Rabbi Hirsch makes his imaginary protagonist remark: "How can anyone who is able to
enjoy the beauties of a Virgil, a Tasso, a Shakespeare, who can follow the logical
conclusions of a Leibnitz and Kant--how can such a one find pleasure in the Old
Testament, so deficient in form and taste, and in the senseless writings of the Talmud?"
Before Rabbi Hirsch, no Orthodox Jew had ever expressed such sentiments, even as a
prelude to their rebuttal.
Rabbi Hirsch was especially influenced by Hegel and Schiller. In a speech given in his
school he founded on the centenary of the birth of the latter, he claimed that the universal
6
principles of Western culture embodied in Schiller's writings are Jewish values
originating in the Torah.
Despite Rabbi Hirsch's liberalism in matters of culture and education, he was critical of
literature that he considered offensive from a religious or moral standpoint. Thus, while
reading "Der Salon" by Heine, he grew so highly incensed by its blasphemous
expressions that he wanted to burn the book and compensate the library for its
destruction. Nevertheless, the fact that "Der Salon" was written by apostate did not
prevent Rabbi Hirsch from reading it.
https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/historical_perspectives_rsrh_hilesheimer.pdf
Broadly recognized as “the father of Modern Orthodoxy,” four of Rav Hildesheimer’s philosophical and pedagogical approaches underscore the essence of modern Orthodoxy: (1) he provided both a Jewish and secular education to both boys and girls; (2) he established a rabbinic seminary where secular studies and academic Jewish scholarship were taught side by side with traditional yeshiva studies; (3) While always maintaining ultimate faithfulness to halacha, he worked with all segments of the Jewish community, including the non-Orthodox, to improve the general Jewish condition and, in particular, to combat antisemitism; and (4) he was a passionate Zionist who worked unceasingly to encourage aliyah and to improve the conditions of Jews living in Eretz Yisrael. He was perhaps the only 19th century German rabbi who argued for the reinstitution of Jewish courts and for the superiority of Jewish civil law over secular law.
Deletehttps://www.jewishpress.com/sections/features/features-on-jewish-world/the-modern-orthodox-theology-of-rav-azriel-hildesheimer/2025/01/01/
KA,
DeleteRelevance or red herring?
Cohen said: "TIDE had little place for present style zionism."
DeleteS.R. Hirsch yes, but Hildsheimer was much more pro Zionism
"RSRH refused to an oration for Goethe because"
but look at the other philosophers he did validate
A contemporary of RSRH was Rav Tzvi Hirsch kalischer.
ReplyDeleteRav Kalischer built the religious foundations for shivat Zion, and even argued that we are able to and have a chiyuv to bring korbanot today.
See the difference between Rav Hirsch tide and German culture, Vs Rav Kalischer who rejected the galus.