That's hardly a widespread view amongst academics. They want to spread their knowledge, they want everyone to have opportunities to study , be they poor, Arab sector, hareidim, etc.
It's a love-hate thing. The seculars would genuinely love for the Chareidim to become employed, pay taxes and contribute to society. They would genuinely hate to lose their jobs to them.
“Secular Jews are the true fearful ones” True in the sense of reform Rabbi Sapirstein and Bishop Snorton in https://www.wsj.com/articles/public-prayer-doesnt-belong-in-public-schools-religious-freedom-supreme-court-kennedy-football-coach-11652292732 “It protects parents who want to send their children to public schools without fear that they will be coerced into participating in prayer or religious activities. And it ensures that all Americans feel welcome and treated equally under the law regardless of their religion. We, as faith leaders, can no longer take church-state separation as an indispensable protection of religious liberty for granted. Faith leaders and all those concerned for religious freedom must support school districts like Bremerton that protect the religious freedom of their students and yet are falsely tarnished as antireligious.”
I write in https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/327318 “My Theory The cause of the quarrel is of critical importance. The Blasphemer argued against miracles from God. He scoffed at anyone who believes that the 9-day old 12 rolls of bread was always steaming fresh hot as if just baked. The Blasphemer argued that God doesn’t exist and there is no Divine Providence and no miracles. The Blasphemer totally rejects the creation account in the Bible, which is not necessary literal but gives Creation a Prime Mover. A modern day version would say he believes in Darwin’s evolution theory as taught in USA public schools. USA public schools teachers scoff at the creation account in the Bible. The Blasphemer is a radical progressive left socialist Marxist”
I follow SCOTUS 21-418 April 15, 2022 “TABLE OF AUTHORITIES.......................................ii REPLY BRIEF............................................................ 1 ARGUMENT............................................................... 3 I. The Free Speech And Free Exercise Clauses Doubly Protect Kennedy’s Religious Exercise ...... 3 II. The Establishment Clause Does Not Compel Public Schools To Purge From Public View All Religious Exercise Of Coaches And Teachers .... 9”
My theory is that the real impetus behind anti-religious activism is seeking forbidden unlawful marriages ויקרא פרשת אחרי מות פרק יח פסוק ו אִישׁ אִישׁ אֶל כָּל שְׁאֵר בְּשָׂרוֹ לֹא תִקְרְבוּ לְגַלּוֹת עֶרְוָה אֲנִי יְקֹוָק:
Like I said above, the Israelis are odd. They shout about how the Chareidim and undereducated and unemployed but then scream "The Chareidim will steal out jobs!"
Actually it's a bigger threat to the MO. Right now the MO community's one advantage over the Chareidim is the usefulness to greater society. The MO line is that you have to be MO to be a fully functioning and contributing person because compromises have to be made in how strong your Judaism is. Imagine a cadre of Chareidim, doctors, lawyers, accountants, even construction workers, all working hard and without compromise. It puts a lie to MO and reveals that the compromises are probably just religious laziness.
Yeah sure, and imagine a haredi hesder yeshiva, will put the tzionim out of business. What if the neturei and satmar start celebrating yom haatzmaut, and loving seculars. Wait a minute _ that is the greatest success of mo rz. As rabbi rackman said, my view might be a minority but one day it will prevail.
The secs, and Israelis in general don't want to give their own jobs away. In programming there is always a shortage of jobs, so the problem does not exist. The employers are largely secs so they decide who to give the jobs to _ Arabs, Ukrainian, hareidim, etc.
problem is, that the Ashkenazi hareidim also have this view towards the Sephardim, not allowing the girls to study in Ashky schools, not accepting "Daas" of Sephardi gedolim, etc.
it is a fact that there is a shortage of computer programmers in Israel. see https://medium.com/israeli-high-tech/the-israeli-programmer-shortage-is-sky-high-5ec459a8b09d
for example
so what is your claim about?
I said that the employers are largely secular - ok, may be some DL/MO too.
They are looking to other sectors for programmers - this is long time trend already.
If you are a programemr, and have the skills, it is fairly easy to find a job. If you are hareidi, and have the skills, it should not be a problem.
Look at the Chardal movement - showing you can be Chareidi and be in the army. Once upon a time, the army belonged to the kibbutznikim. Slowly they lost much of it to the RZ's. So why couldn't a dedicated group of Chareidi officers not have a presence?
“Secular Jews are the true fearful ones” No. We all suffer because of secular Jews.
Torah thought on בחקתי “But shall perish among the nations ואבדתם בגוים; and the land of your enemies shall consume you up ואכלה אתכם ארץ איביכם. Those of you who survive shall be heartsick over their iniquity in the land of your enemies; more, they shall be heartsick over the iniquities of their fathers; and they shall confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, in they trespassed against Me; yea, you were hostile to Me. When I, in turn, have been hostile to them and have removed them into the land of their enemies, then, at last shall their obdurate heart humble itself, and they shall atone for their iniquity. Then will I remember My covenant with Jacob; I will remember also My covenant with Isaac, and also My covenant with Abraham; and I will remember the land. For the land shall lie forsaken of them, making up for its sabbath years by being desolate of them; while they atone for their iniquity; for the abundant reason they rejected My rules and spurned My laws. Yet, even then, when when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or spurn them so as to destroy them, annulling My covenant with them; for I the Lord am their God. I will remember in their favor the covenant with the ancients, whom I freed from the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God: I the Lord.” (Leviticus 27:38-45).
Beautiful. My theory. Leviticus 27:38 is the opposite of “Thus they spread calumnies among the Israelites about the land they had scouted saying, The country we traversed and scouted is one that devours its settlers ארץ אכלת יושביה הוא. All the people we saw in it are of great size;” (Numbers 13:32).
In truth the facts are that the ancient land of Israel before Sinai made its inhabitants to be of great size. In the midrash Job lived then and wrote his book.
We ask when will diaspora end and we return to Israel? When we confess and atone for our iniquity. What iniquity? Our rejecting God’s rules and laws Torah of Moses.
the point i am trying to make, - here is an analogy : if many democrats start voting republican, they are no longer Democrats. Rav Soloveitchik, Rav Goren were raised in Chareidi families, but they joined different ideologies, and will be remembered as scuh, and not as chareidim.
I am not about to say "it isn't so" - because it is so -
perhaps a need for dialogue, outreach? In Jerusalem it is slightly different , methinks, as there is a large MO/RZ population, both native and olim, who are involved in secular world.
Seculars have "stereotypes" for Hareidim, but also for religious, for Parsim, for russians, etc. It is also paradoxical - because many seculars had frum grandparents or great grandparents .
It's most certainly a racist issue. Cultural is "Well we don't eat at Sephardi houses becaues of different kashrus systems". Ashkenazi Chareidim is "Sephardim are inferior. Their Gedolim are inferior. They can't come to our schools or marry our children because they're inferior." That's not cultural.
It is and it also isn't: Rav Soloveitchik ztl was certainly of the same race as other litvish rabbis, and was part of the Brisker clan. However, he became more and more rejected, and wrote an essay about "The Lonely Man of Faith". So in terms of ideology, he became the "other", but his family were welcoem to learn at Brisk if they wanted to (and if they became hareidi again). So there is an ideological aspect to it. Sephardim are generally different, and in Israel there are comunities who are much darker than say the Spanish and Portuguese who were more familiar to Ashkenazim before the return of exiles to Israel. So there is a "white privelige" to use a woke term, and that is also true in israeli society in general. Majority of bus drivers are dark skinned, just like in the UK.
Just like the academics don't like sharing their "patents" or knowledge with everyone, Hareidim don't like sharing their "Daas Torah", but that goes even with other ashkenazim, litvishers, and even other members who are one moetzes or other.
also, just like the parallel discussion about how Sefardim are perceived - this is not a race issue, unlike African Americans, where it is a race issue. it is cultural,
If you were to wear a straw hat, a funky shirt , and jeans, then you would not be looked upon as a stranger by secularists - but, you would be ostracised by your own Hareidi friends! these are all thought experments - I have tired a few variations myself.
“Secular Jews are the true fearful ones” No. More this week’s parsha בחקתי. ויקרא פרשת בחקותי פרק כו פסוק לח וַאֲבַדְתֶּם בַּגּוֹיִם וְאָכְלָה אֶתְכֶם אֶרֶץ אֹיְבֵיכֶם: מדרש אגדה (בובר) ויקרא פרשת בחקותי פרק כו פסוק לח ואבדתם בגוים. אין אבידה אלא גלות, שנאמר תעיתי כשה אובד (תהלים קיט קעו): ואכלה אתכם ארץ אויביכם. כענין שנאמר אכלני הממני נבוכדנצר: (ירמיה ל' נ"א ל"ד): רש"י ויקרא פרשת בחקותי פרק כו פסוק לח ואבדתם בגוים - כשתהיו פזוריםו תהיו אבודים זה מזה: ואכלה אתכם - אלו המתים בגולה: תלמוד בבלי מסכת מכות דף כד עמוד א ואכלה אתכם ארץ אויביכם. מתקיף לה מר זוטרא: דלמא כאכילת קישואין ודילועין! רש"י מסכת מכות דף כד עמוד א כאכילת קשואין ודלועין - שאוכלים מקצתם ומקצתם אין אוכלין.
“I have strayed like a lost sheep; seek for Your servant; for I have not neglected Your commandments.” (Psalms 119:176)
My theory. Many deaths. Some survive. Plain meaning of Leviticus 26:38 is galut, we’ll be lost among the nations, we’ll be scattered and lost one from another. Surely this applies to Israel too today.
The prophet Joel says under rule of nations even with the Holy Temple standing: “Blow a horn in Zion. Solemnize a fast. Proclaim an assembly! Gather the people. Bid the congregation to purify themselves. Bring together the old. Gather the babes and sucklings at the breast. Let the bridegroom come out from his chamber; the bride from her canopied couch. Between the portico and the altar, let the priests, the Lord’s ministers, weep and say: Oh, spare Your people, Lord! Let not Your possession become a mockery, to be ruled by nations! Let not the peoples say: Where is their God?” (Joel 2:15-17).
I apply Leviticus 26:38 to use today: 75 years as a nation yet today we’re ruled by nations. King David can say Psalms 119:176. We have to confess our iniquity and the iniquities of previous generations.
Interesting. How was it said, as a joke?
ReplyDeleteWas this training for the job market?
No this was a comment made from one of the teachers to another which was overheard - no it was not meant as a joke
ReplyDeleteThat's hardly a widespread view amongst academics. They want to spread their knowledge, they want everyone to have opportunities to study , be they poor, Arab sector, hareidim, etc.
ReplyDeleteIt's a love-hate thing. The seculars would genuinely love for the Chareidim to become employed, pay taxes and contribute to society. They would genuinely hate to lose their jobs to them.
ReplyDeleteHareidim afraid of becoming modern orthodox?
ReplyDeleteI guess you are not familiar with Israeli society?
ReplyDelete“Secular Jews are the true fearful ones” True in the sense of reform Rabbi Sapirstein and Bishop Snorton in https://www.wsj.com/articles/public-prayer-doesnt-belong-in-public-schools-religious-freedom-supreme-court-kennedy-football-coach-11652292732
ReplyDelete“It protects parents who want to send their children to public schools without fear that they will be coerced into participating in prayer or religious activities. And it ensures that all Americans feel welcome and treated equally under the law regardless of their religion. We, as faith leaders, can no longer take church-state separation as an indispensable protection of religious liberty for granted. Faith leaders and all those concerned for religious freedom must support school districts like Bremerton that protect the religious freedom of their students and yet are falsely tarnished as antireligious.”
I write in https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/327318
“My Theory The cause of the quarrel is of critical importance. The Blasphemer argued against miracles from God. He scoffed at anyone who believes that the 9-day old 12 rolls of bread was always steaming fresh hot as if just baked. The Blasphemer argued that God doesn’t exist and there is no Divine Providence and no miracles. The Blasphemer totally rejects the creation account in the Bible, which is not necessary literal but gives Creation a Prime Mover. A modern day version would say he believes in Darwin’s evolution theory as taught in USA public schools. USA public schools teachers scoff at the creation account in the Bible.
The Blasphemer is a radical progressive left socialist Marxist”
I follow SCOTUS 21-418 April 15, 2022
“TABLE OF AUTHORITIES.......................................ii
REPLY BRIEF............................................................ 1
ARGUMENT............................................................... 3
I. The Free Speech And Free Exercise Clauses
Doubly Protect Kennedy’s Religious Exercise ...... 3
II. The Establishment Clause Does Not Compel
Public Schools To Purge From Public View All
Religious Exercise Of Coaches And Teachers .... 9”
My theory is that the real impetus behind anti-religious activism is seeking forbidden unlawful marriages ויקרא פרשת אחרי מות פרק יח פסוק ו
אִישׁ אִישׁ אֶל כָּל שְׁאֵר בְּשָׂרוֹ לֹא תִקְרְבוּ לְגַלּוֹת עֶרְוָה אֲנִי יְקֹוָק:
Like I said above, the Israelis are odd. They shout about how the Chareidim and undereducated and unemployed but then scream "The Chareidim will steal out jobs!"
ReplyDeleteActually it's a bigger threat to the MO.
ReplyDeleteRight now the MO community's one advantage over the Chareidim is the usefulness to greater society. The MO line is that you have to be MO to be a fully functioning and contributing person because compromises have to be made in how strong your Judaism is. Imagine a cadre of Chareidim, doctors, lawyers, accountants, even construction workers, all working hard and without compromise. It puts a lie to MO and reveals that the compromises are probably just religious laziness.
Yeah sure, and imagine a haredi hesder yeshiva, will put the tzionim out of business. What if the neturei and satmar start celebrating yom haatzmaut, and loving seculars. Wait a minute _ that is the greatest success of mo rz. As rabbi rackman said, my view might be a minority but one day it will prevail.
ReplyDeleteThe secs, and Israelis in general don't want to give their own jobs away. In programming there is always a shortage of jobs, so the problem does not exist. The employers are largely secs so they decide who to give the jobs to _ Arabs, Ukrainian, hareidim, etc.
ReplyDeleteproblem is, that the Ashkenazi hareidim also have this view towards the Sephardim, not allowing the girls to study in Ashky schools, not accepting "Daas" of Sephardi gedolim, etc.
ReplyDeleteYou are naive and pontificate about issues you know nothing about
ReplyDeleteNope!
ReplyDeleteyou are all-knowing, so everything you say or deny was already truth before even the dinosaurs were thought of
ReplyDeletenope what exactly?
ReplyDeletewhich part of the above are you rejecting?
it is a fact that there is a shortage of computer programmers in Israel. see https://medium.com/israeli-high-tech/the-israeli-programmer-shortage-is-sky-high-5ec459a8b09d
for example
so what is your claim about?
I said that the employers are largely secular - ok, may be some DL/MO too.
They are looking to other sectors for programmers - this is long time trend already.
If you are a programemr, and have the skills, it is fairly easy to find a job. If you are hareidi, and have the skills, it should not be a problem.
Look at the Chardal movement - showing you can be Chareidi and be in the army.
ReplyDeleteOnce upon a time, the army belonged to the kibbutznikim. Slowly they lost much of it to the RZ's. So why couldn't a dedicated group of Chareidi officers not have a presence?
Most of secular Israeli society has moved beyond the Ash-Seph divide. It's really only the Chareidim who maintain it because it's now a tradition!
ReplyDeleteit is not an economic issue
ReplyDeleteThey can. But they would stop being hareidi.
ReplyDeleteWhen I said it, I was rebuked. Perhaps you can say it because you are ashkenazi.
ReplyDelete“Secular Jews are the true fearful ones” No. We all suffer because of secular Jews.
ReplyDeleteTorah thought on בחקתי “But shall perish among the nations ואבדתם בגוים; and the land of your enemies shall consume you up ואכלה אתכם ארץ איביכם. Those of you who survive shall be heartsick over their iniquity in the land of your enemies; more, they shall be heartsick over the iniquities of their fathers; and they shall confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, in they trespassed against Me; yea, you were hostile to Me. When I, in turn, have been hostile to them and have removed them into the land of their enemies, then, at last shall their obdurate heart humble itself, and they shall atone for their iniquity. Then will I remember My covenant with Jacob; I will remember also My covenant with Isaac, and also My covenant with Abraham; and I will remember the land. For the land shall lie forsaken of them, making up for its sabbath years by being desolate of them; while they atone for their iniquity; for the abundant reason they rejected My rules and spurned My laws. Yet, even then, when when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or spurn them so as to destroy them, annulling My covenant with them; for I the Lord am their God. I will remember in their favor the covenant with the ancients, whom I freed from the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God: I the Lord.” (Leviticus 27:38-45).
Beautiful. My theory. Leviticus 27:38 is the opposite of “Thus they spread calumnies among the Israelites about the land they had scouted saying, The country we traversed and scouted is one that devours its settlers ארץ אכלת יושביה הוא. All the people we saw in it are of great size;” (Numbers 13:32).
In truth the facts are that the ancient land of Israel before Sinai made its inhabitants to be of great size. In the midrash Job lived then and wrote his book.
We ask when will diaspora end and we return to Israel? When we confess and atone for our iniquity. What iniquity? Our rejecting God’s rules and laws Torah of Moses.
Do you feel discriminated against in Israeli society?
ReplyDeleteYou mistakenly think askenaz sefardi divide is a racist issue - it is actually a cultural issue in the same way Israeli Chareidim treat Americans
ReplyDeletethe point i am trying to make, - here is an analogy : if many democrats start voting republican, they are no longer Democrats. Rav Soloveitchik, Rav Goren were raised in Chareidi families, but they joined different ideologies, and will be remembered as scuh, and not as chareidim.
ReplyDeleteI am well aware the secular Israeli sees me in the same way the Blacks are viewed in America
ReplyDeleteI am not about to say "it isn't so" - because it is so -
ReplyDeleteperhaps a need for dialogue, outreach?
In Jerusalem it is slightly different , methinks, as there is a large MO/RZ population, both native and olim, who are involved in secular world.
Seculars have "stereotypes" for Hareidim, but also for religious, for Parsim, for russians, etc. It is also paradoxical - because many seculars had frum grandparents or great grandparents .
It's most certainly a racist issue. Cultural is "Well we don't eat at Sephardi houses becaues of different kashrus systems". Ashkenazi Chareidim is "Sephardim are inferior. Their Gedolim are inferior. They can't come to our schools or marry our children because they're inferior." That's not cultural.
ReplyDeleteIt is and it also isn't:
ReplyDeleteRav Soloveitchik ztl was certainly of the same race as other litvish rabbis, and was part of the Brisker clan. However, he became more and more rejected, and wrote an essay about "The Lonely Man of Faith".
So in terms of ideology, he became the "other", but his family were welcoem to learn at Brisk if they wanted to (and if they became hareidi again).
So there is an ideological aspect to it.
Sephardim are generally different, and in Israel there are comunities who are much darker than say the Spanish and Portuguese who were more familiar to Ashkenazim before the return of exiles to Israel.
So there is a "white privelige" to use a woke term, and that is also true in israeli society in general. Majority of bus drivers are dark skinned, just like in the UK.
Just like the academics don't like sharing their "patents" or knowledge with everyone, Hareidim don't like sharing their "Daas Torah", but that goes even with other ashkenazim, litvishers, and even other members who are one moetzes or other.
also, just like the parallel discussion about how Sefardim are perceived - this is not a race issue, unlike African Americans, where it is a race issue. it is cultural,
ReplyDeleteIf you were to wear a straw hat, a funky shirt , and jeans, then you would not be looked upon as a stranger by secularists - but, you would be ostracised by your own Hareidi friends! these are all thought experments - I have tired a few variations myself.
Nope
ReplyDeletethat is why the sefardi elite sends their children to non sefardic schools
It is fortunate that the Sefardi elite have helped translate important works of Rambam from Arabic to Hebrew.
ReplyDelete“Secular Jews are the true fearful ones” No. More this week’s parsha בחקתי.
ReplyDeleteויקרא פרשת בחקותי פרק כו פסוק לח
וַאֲבַדְתֶּם בַּגּוֹיִם וְאָכְלָה אֶתְכֶם אֶרֶץ אֹיְבֵיכֶם:
מדרש אגדה (בובר) ויקרא פרשת בחקותי פרק כו פסוק לח
ואבדתם בגוים. אין אבידה אלא גלות, שנאמר תעיתי כשה אובד (תהלים קיט קעו): ואכלה אתכם ארץ אויביכם. כענין שנאמר אכלני הממני נבוכדנצר: (ירמיה ל' נ"א ל"ד):
רש"י ויקרא פרשת בחקותי פרק כו פסוק לח
ואבדתם בגוים - כשתהיו פזוריםו תהיו אבודים זה מזה:
ואכלה אתכם - אלו המתים בגולה:
תלמוד בבלי מסכת מכות דף כד עמוד א
ואכלה אתכם ארץ אויביכם. מתקיף לה מר זוטרא: דלמא כאכילת קישואין ודילועין!
רש"י מסכת מכות דף כד עמוד א
כאכילת קשואין ודלועין - שאוכלים מקצתם ומקצתם אין אוכלין.
“I have strayed like a lost sheep; seek for Your servant; for I have not neglected Your commandments.” (Psalms 119:176)
My theory. Many deaths. Some survive. Plain meaning of Leviticus 26:38 is galut, we’ll be lost among the nations, we’ll be scattered and lost one from another. Surely this applies to Israel too today.
The prophet Joel says under rule of nations even with the Holy Temple standing:
“Blow a horn in Zion. Solemnize a fast. Proclaim an assembly! Gather the people. Bid the congregation to purify themselves. Bring together the old. Gather the babes and sucklings at the breast. Let the bridegroom come out from his chamber; the bride from her canopied couch. Between the portico and the altar, let the priests, the Lord’s ministers, weep and say: Oh, spare Your people, Lord! Let not Your possession become a mockery, to be ruled by nations! Let not the peoples say: Where is their God?” (Joel 2:15-17).
I apply Leviticus 26:38 to use today: 75 years as a nation yet today we’re ruled by nations. King David can say Psalms 119:176. We have to confess our iniquity and the iniquities of previous generations.