He is correct on his second point, ideally women should work in non combat roles _ logistics, radar, cooking, etc. Regarding his first point, there are 2 questions: 1) is Israel at a state of national emergency? There is ongoing threat of terror, but also, it has been compared to the eve of the yom kippur war, and it could break out any time. 2) does Rav bar hayyim fully understand what is military training? If we recruit a bunch of 18 year olds into a red hot war, and expect them to know how to fight, shoot, drive tanks, fly warplanes etc, then we would have to be seriously deluded. Having that level of training and lack of skills would lead to serious defeat. Compare to karate or other martial arts. A beginner needs 6 months training just to get fit enough to learn and practice basic moves. For him to be competent to fight, takes many years of training. The early Israeli army of the 1940s had fought in the British, polish, russian armies etc, to be able to defeat the Arabs.
Din rodeif _ the question is whether it applies for an attack in the making. If an enemy is planning to kill an individual or the kahal, does Halacha require us to attack them months before (eg Hezbollah missiles in Syria, Lebanon) , or years before, eg the nuclear plants in Baghdad, and in Syria. In Jeremiah 40 : 15 yochanan warns gedaliah that he will be assassinated by Ismail and proposes to kill Ishmael before this. Gedaliah refuses to believe the military intelligence he is not opposed to the law of the pursuer, he is simply in denial about whether his life is in danger. . The danger was not necessarily the same day the four this incident suggests we can take preemptive action. What applies to gedaliah, applies to us.
Haba lehorgoch, *HASHKEM* lehorgo, Hashkem is PREEMPTIVE strike, of which can apply to any attacker and there is no time limit of how soon it needs be imminent. It is the kind of "Veorav lo vekam alav", bishat nefesh, premeditated. Spies have been with us since time immemorial, Yoseph accusing "meraglim atem", hiding on the roof by Rachav, people and nations have always been on the alert having lookout posts as in Ein Rogel on Har Hatzofim. Din Rodef is more of something in hot pursuit as in ki yecham lavavo, by another ben bnei brit where yachol lehatzilo bechad me'eivarav applies. The Jewish nation was instructed to have a regular army of Yotzei Tzovo, with one half dedicated to combat and the other half Yoshvim al haKelim for logistics and support. They did not go into combat nor wear any combat gear, "she'ein derech haisha lichbosh". Kala mechuposo in modern day warfare doesn't seem to apply, more likely if there is a terrorist attack skirmish surprise attack, in my humble opinion. Where can I find the *text* of Rabbi David Bar-Hayim?
David hamelech says that Hashem teaches my hands warfare. In other words,warriors need training. Today. Everyone is at risk of a katyusha or other missiles. Hence everyone has a chiyuv to defend their families and neighbors. Logistics is approx 2/3 of the modern army. We had women warriors too, yael in the prehistoric mossad. Kala or not, there are the 2 categories you mentioned, hashkem and rodef. Essentially the same principle. If a woman is in a control room operating a computer, drone, radar etc it's just as important as the guy in the field. We must also blow chotztzorot _ silver trumpets. General Rav Goren carried a shofar with him to give chizuk to his troops, that is why they won wars.
Shishim giborim saviv la migoborei Yisrael... melumdei milchama, no argument there, we do need an Army. There definitely is room for females to serve, however, there are conscientious objectors for those at least that do object, should be spared. In today's warfare, it is mostly buttons and no need for Kalah mechuposo. As for Katyushas or mistanenim, there always is shmira, haga, chamushim etc. no need for women for defense. In yishuvei Sfar where a desperate emergency situation can arise, and women need be trained to use a firearm, you can have training in separate yechidot. I also heard Rav Goren's drasha of quoting psukim straight from the Torah delivering to the troops. Baruch Hashem, in addition to the most modern sophisticated weapons IDF has in posession, we also have the best secret weapon called Hashem. Enei H' ba mireishis hashana ad achris hashana. Yael, Yehudis, Channa (not Szenesh lol) were horaot sha'a and not the run of the mill. And THAT is why we won the war!!! It is not kochi veotzem yadi. The famous quote goes, az g-t vill shist a bezem = If G-d wants, even a broom can be a firearm. In summary, it is inappropriate the settings for women in the Army.
"Baruch Hashem, in addition to the most modern sophisticated weapons IDF has in posession, we also have the best secret weapon called Hashem."
That is the correct attitude, IMHO - Moshe Dayan did not accept Hashem in any way,and wanted to remove His Holy Name from K-e-l Maleh Rachamim. I met a secular old man, who was saying we are invincible - but based only on Kochi v'otzem yadi. That is incorrect. We have to raise engineers, and scientists to design new weapons systems, etc. but recognize that hashem has given us the miracle, the first stage of our return as a Jewish nation. It is a difficult concept to accept for many frum people. rav Shach would say it was not in our naure and Jewish people to have armies and warfare for the past 1900 years. What he did not mention is that before the churban, our nature was different, we had out own land, military , Temple, and at one time we also had prophets and kings too! Rav Bar Hayyim talks a lot about Galut mode Judaism versus Geula mode Judaism, (which he claims to represent).
"Yael, Yehudis, Channa (not Szenesh lol) were horaot sha'a and not the run of the mill." Whenever there were wars, it was Horaat Sha'ah. Shimshon and the Plishti woman; Esther marrying Achashverosh; etc. etc. The problem is that there has not really been peace in Israel just one ceasefire which is temporary, and then the next conflict.
Back in 1950 or so a great "Gadol" announced that it was "Yehareg v'al ya'avor" to do Sheirut Leumi. And now Israeli society is thinking: you'll throw a temper tantrum over anything so we'll just ignore you when you do"
As I've said before, those who make such statements, don't actually understand what Yeharaig actually entails. Or they do, and they are just twisting it. If there is a Spanish Inquistion, or a Persian Islamo conversion by the sword, you are given a choice, - or convert, or die, which one? In that situation, you can choose yeharaig, or if you are chicken, can choose to yaavor nevertheless, and do teshuva later.
In the IDF and Sheirut leumi, there is no yeharaig - since nobody is executed for refusing to serve. There is also no yaavor - the food is kosher, the army has its own rabbanut, its own yeshiva network, and in non combat times, there is no work to be done on shabbat, unless it is pikuach nefesh.
Yes, but the Chazon Ish said it was yehareg v'al ya'avor so now it's a yesod emunah for the Chareidim. If everyone is special, no one is special. If you freak out over every little thing, people won't care when you freak out over the big things.
Horaat Shaah is not allowed in cases of yehareg ve'al yaavor.
Anyway, Chana Senesz was not a case of giluy arayot (though undoubtedly she was raped by Germans Hungarians. For some reason, we assume all in German and other custody during WWII era are kosher for cohanim.
What is the yeharaig you are talking about? There is no issur in a woman defending herself. The case of Yael was aveira lishma, according to the oral tradition.
He is correct on his second point, ideally women should work in non combat roles _ logistics, radar, cooking, etc. Regarding his first point, there are 2 questions: 1) is Israel at a state of national emergency? There is ongoing threat of terror, but also, it has been compared to the eve of the yom kippur war, and it could break out any time. 2) does Rav bar hayyim fully understand what is military training? If we recruit a bunch of 18 year olds into a red hot war, and expect them to know how to fight, shoot, drive tanks, fly warplanes etc, then we would have to be seriously deluded. Having that level of training and lack of skills would lead to serious defeat.
ReplyDeleteCompare to karate or other martial arts. A beginner needs 6 months training just to get fit enough to learn and practice basic moves. For him to be competent to fight, takes many years of training. The early Israeli army of the 1940s had fought in the British, polish, russian armies etc, to be able to defeat the Arabs.
Din rodeif _ the question is whether it applies for an attack in the making. If an enemy is planning to kill an individual or the kahal, does Halacha require us to attack them months before (eg Hezbollah missiles in Syria, Lebanon) , or years before, eg the nuclear plants in Baghdad, and in Syria. In Jeremiah 40 : 15 yochanan warns gedaliah that he will be assassinated by Ismail and proposes to kill Ishmael before this. Gedaliah refuses to believe the military intelligence he is not opposed to the law of the pursuer, he is simply in denial about whether his life is in danger. . The danger was not necessarily the same day the four this incident suggests we can take preemptive action. What applies to gedaliah, applies to us.
ReplyDeleteHaba lehorgoch, *HASHKEM* lehorgo, Hashkem is PREEMPTIVE strike, of which can apply to any attacker and there is no time limit of how soon it needs be imminent. It is the kind of "Veorav lo vekam alav", bishat nefesh, premeditated.
ReplyDeleteSpies have been with us since time immemorial, Yoseph accusing "meraglim atem", hiding on the roof by Rachav, people and nations have always been on the alert having lookout posts as in Ein Rogel on Har Hatzofim.
Din Rodef is more of something in hot pursuit as in ki yecham lavavo, by another ben bnei brit where yachol lehatzilo bechad me'eivarav applies. The Jewish nation was instructed to have a regular army of Yotzei Tzovo, with one half dedicated to combat and the other half Yoshvim al haKelim for logistics and support. They did not go into combat nor wear any combat gear, "she'ein derech haisha lichbosh". Kala mechuposo in modern day warfare doesn't seem to apply, more likely if there is a terrorist attack skirmish surprise attack, in my humble opinion. Where can I find the *text* of Rabbi David Bar-Hayim?
David hamelech says that Hashem teaches my hands warfare. In other words,warriors need training. Today. Everyone is at risk of a katyusha or other missiles. Hence everyone has a chiyuv to defend their families and neighbors. Logistics is approx 2/3 of the modern army. We had women warriors too, yael in the prehistoric mossad.
ReplyDeleteKala or not, there are the 2 categories you mentioned, hashkem and rodef. Essentially the same principle. If a woman is in a control room operating a computer, drone, radar etc it's just as important as the guy in the field. We must also blow chotztzorot _ silver trumpets. General Rav Goren carried a shofar with him to give chizuk to his troops, that is why they won wars.
Shishim giborim saviv la migoborei Yisrael... melumdei milchama, no argument there, we do need an Army. There definitely is room for females to serve, however, there are conscientious objectors for those at least that do object, should be spared. In today's warfare, it is mostly buttons and no need for Kalah mechuposo. As for Katyushas or mistanenim, there always is shmira, haga, chamushim etc. no need for women for defense. In yishuvei Sfar where a desperate emergency situation can arise, and women need be trained to use a firearm, you can have training in separate yechidot. I also heard Rav Goren's drasha of quoting psukim straight from the Torah delivering to the troops. Baruch Hashem, in addition to the most modern sophisticated weapons IDF has in posession, we also have the best secret weapon called Hashem. Enei H' ba mireishis hashana ad achris hashana. Yael, Yehudis, Channa (not Szenesh lol) were horaot sha'a and not the run of the mill. And THAT is why we won the war!!! It is not kochi veotzem yadi. The famous quote goes, az g-t vill shist a bezem = If G-d wants, even a broom can be a firearm.
ReplyDeleteIn summary, it is inappropriate the settings for women in the Army.
He makes very good points in the video.
ReplyDeleteIt begs the followup question, what about "national service?"
"Baruch Hashem, in addition to the most modern sophisticated weapons IDF
ReplyDeletehas in posession, we also have the best secret weapon called Hashem."
That is the correct attitude, IMHO - Moshe Dayan did not accept Hashem in any way,and wanted to remove His Holy Name from K-e-l Maleh Rachamim. I met a secular old man, who was saying we are invincible - but based only on Kochi v'otzem yadi. That is incorrect. We have to raise engineers, and scientists to design new weapons systems, etc. but recognize that hashem has given us the miracle, the first stage of our return as a Jewish nation. It is a difficult concept to accept for many frum people. rav Shach would say it was not in our naure and Jewish people to have armies and warfare for the past 1900 years. What he did not mention is that before the churban, our nature was different, we had out own land, military , Temple, and at one time we also had prophets and kings too! Rav Bar Hayyim talks a lot about Galut mode Judaism versus Geula mode Judaism, (which he claims to represent).
"Yael, Yehudis, Channa (not Szenesh lol) were horaot sha'a and not the run of the mill."
ReplyDeleteWhenever there were wars, it was Horaat Sha'ah. Shimshon and the Plishti woman; Esther marrying Achashverosh; etc. etc. The problem is that there has not really been peace in Israel just one ceasefire which is temporary, and then the next conflict.
Back in 1950 or so a great "Gadol" announced that it was "Yehareg v'al ya'avor" to do Sheirut Leumi. And now Israeli society is thinking: you'll throw a temper tantrum over anything so we'll just ignore you when you do"
ReplyDeleteAs I've said before, those who make such statements, don't actually understand what Yeharaig actually entails. Or they do, and they are just twisting it.
ReplyDeleteIf there is a Spanish Inquistion, or a Persian Islamo conversion by the sword, you are given a choice, - or convert, or die, which one? In that situation, you can choose yeharaig, or if you are chicken, can choose to yaavor nevertheless, and do teshuva later.
In the IDF and Sheirut leumi, there is no yeharaig - since nobody is executed for refusing to serve. There is also no yaavor - the food is kosher, the army has its own rabbanut, its own yeshiva network, and in non combat times, there is no work to be done on shabbat, unless it is pikuach nefesh.
Essentially, there is no yaavor and no yeharaig.
Yes, but the Chazon Ish said it was yehareg v'al ya'avor so now it's a yesod emunah for the Chareidim.
ReplyDeleteIf everyone is special, no one is special. If you freak out over every little thing, people won't care when you freak out over the big things.
Horaat Shaah is not allowed in cases of yehareg ve'al yaavor.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, Chana Senesz was not a case of giluy arayot (though undoubtedly she was raped by Germans Hungarians. For some reason, we assume all in German and other custody during WWII era are kosher for cohanim.
What is the yeharaig you are talking about?
ReplyDeleteThere is no issur in a woman defending herself.
The case of Yael was aveira lishma, according to the oral tradition.
Gadol HaDor Rav Kanievsky allows carrying guns to shul in America
ReplyDeletehttps://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1820975/psak-halachah-hagaon-harav-chaim-kanievsky-says-americans-can-carry-guns-to-shul-see-the-video.html
how is that different to anyone serving in the Israeli army? In principle it is the same, except the the army makes youa mumche