http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/266904
In an 11-page ruling, Rabbi Yehuda Deri, the head of the tribunal, dealt with a series of halakhic issues concerning the special circumstances.
After reviewing the halakhic literature from the days of the Shulchan Aruch up until the present day, he ruled that, even though the baby was born without a waiting period and nine months from the date of divorce, she is the daughter of the new partner and is permitted to marry any Jewish man, including a Cohen, who is subject to various additional restrictions regarding whom he is permitted to marry.
Must have been conceived hours after the divorce
ReplyDeleteHopefully, that she was conceived after the divorce.
ReplyDeleteAll fine n' dandy, and what has the DNA test sayeth? Hmmm... and at which point did she get pregnant, Before, in between, or the day after? And what about the Prep and nekiyim time? Did it overlap? Did she get a heter meah rabonim to start counting sfira before sefer krisus? Lah leatzmah? She must be a good mathematician with an atomic clock, rofl that can go back in time like in "Fall backward". Was it "Vayhi kemishlosh chadoshim?" Is it "tzar klaster ponov kedei lehotzi milaban shel leitzonei hador? Haikar chaser min hasefer. Is the public privileged to know the Psak along with ta'amo venimuko imo, or is this the secret kind of Psak like "Sod H' lireiov"? Midrash Pliah!
ReplyDeleteWhat do the leitzonei hador sayeth?
What's good fore the goose, is good for the gander.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/240900
'MainAll News'
"Haredi Community Son of hasidic rebbe gets divorced and engaged - on the same day"
Hasidim shocked as son of sect leader announces engagement hours after divorcing first wife.
Did they do a DNA test to find out who the father was?
ReplyDeleteI would hope not. Firstly, we take every path to leniency in questions of mazerut. Secondly, which man was the father would not settle the question of whether the child was conceived before or after the get took effect. 9 months is an approximation, so either man could have legitimately fathered the child.
ReplyDeleteDNA would not let 'either' man be the father, but only one and specific. 9 months you count from date of divorce, of which is finite, or 272 days, unless it was done in a petri dish. Let Rabbi Deri open up the books, veyavo hakahal veyishpot. Could she have been possibly impregnated from just fresh air? Or was it a shana meuberet?
ReplyDeletesince the Rav /BD have already determined the child to be kosher, there is no need to go muckraking, unless there is a political point to score against the Rav who made the psak.
ReplyDeleteThere is no prejudice against the Rav or anyone else for that matter. A psak has to be transparent, you cannot have secrets, and we we would like to do the math. It is called meheichan dantani.
ReplyDeleteKalonymus Anonymus “since the Rav /BD have already determined the child to be kosher, there is no need to go muckraking”
ReplyDeletemuckraking = the action of searching out and publicizing scandalous information about famous people in an underhanded way. "a muckraking journalist"
Bravo KA, excellent. Torah thought on דברים
דברים פרק א פסוק טז
וָאֲצַוֶּה אֶת שֹׁפְטֵיכֶם בָּעֵת הַהִוא לֵאמֹר שָׁמֹעַ בֵּין אֲחֵיכֶם וּשְׁפַטְתֶּם צֶדֶק בֵּין אִישׁ וּבֵין אָחִיו וּבֵין גֵּרוֹ
Kethuboth 106a
תורה תמימה דברים פרק א פסוק טז
ושפטתם צדק - מכאן דמצות עשה לדיינים שישפטו רש"י כתובות ק"ו א'
Hertz Chumash p.739:
“The wife of a Chassidic rabbi, having quarreled with her maid, was setting out to the magistrate to lodge her complaint. Noticing that her husband was about to accompany her, she asked him whither he was bound. ‘To the magistrate,’ he said. His wife declared that it was beneath his dignity to take any part in a quarrel with a servant. She could deal with the matter herself. The Zaddik replied: ‘That may be, but I intend to represent your maid, who, when accused by you, will finjd no one willing to take her part.’ And then bursting into a passion of tears he quoted...”
“Did I ever brush aside the case of my servants, man or maid, When they made a complaint against me? What then should I do when God arises; When He calls me to account, what should I answer Him? Did not He who made me in my mother’s belly make him? Did not One form us both in the womb? Did I deny the poor their needs, Or let aa widow pine away,”(Job 31:13-16).
Allow me to show my letter today:
1.I request permission to submit these papers concerning my motion 649 7/15/2019. I'm attaching an affidavit of service proving I mailed by UPS a true copy to Susan. I attach Exhibit A: Mr. Aranoff is ordered not to file any further proceedings; Judge Eric I. Prus signed 11/18/2016.
2.Exhibit A shows convincingly that Judge Prus was stonewalling me and was refusing to hear my case. The Bible Deuteronomy 1:16 orders judges to hear cases. “I charged your magistrates at that time as follows, Hear out your fellow men, and decide justly between any man and a fellow Israelite or a stranger.” Others: “I charged your judges at that time saying: Hear the causes between your brethren and judge righteously between a man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.”
3.My aim is to correct violations of Leviticus 19:13 and Deuteronomy 24:14. “You shall not defraud your fellow. You shall not commit robbery. The wages of a laborer shall not remain with you until morning.” Others: “Thou shalt not oppress thy neighbor, nor rob him; the wages of a hired servant shall not abide with thee all night until morning.” “You shall not abuse a needy and destitute laborer, whether a fellow countryman or a stranger in one of the communities of your land.” Others: “Thou shalt not oppress a hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates.”
I have so many strikes against me: I’m a man, a white man, a religious Zionist, I’m against ORA, I support men’s rights, I’m against using bullets and violence in divorce matters, I support Trump and Netanyahu... Just joking. What will SCOTUS 18-9390 and NYS COA 649 rule? Interesting, yes? It’s a Torah law to hear a case and to rule justly.
Lot's of open unanswered questions left. What was the big rush? Why couldn't they wait the three months testing time? Why didn't she at least use contraceptives? Nine months is not enough to have a baby, you also need waiting and cleanup time. Is this a full term baby? Was she a gefilte fish on her weddiing? What was the Calendar time of the year, as shlogging Kapores, so as to know how many chickens were utilized (just kidding). Are the 11 pages available or sealed from the public? Where is the transparency? Was the Racket man - ipulation deployed? What information did the Gynecologists provide? And what was the need then to see the Gynecologist? BTW, the Kashrut certificate is Glatt without a sircha, or is it implanted with tons of manufactured Sfeikus and Sfek Sfeikus like by R' Go..n asher lo shomu avoseichem meolam. If anyone can provide answers or at least some, tavo olov bracha! Why is there a need to belabor this issue so much, only kedei lehagdil Torah ulha'adirah. ad kaan
ReplyDeleteThis is not "muckraking".
ReplyDeleteThe child will be kosher in any event.
However paternity is important, so that the child knows who her father is.
Kibbud Av.
Obligations of Chinuch.
Child support.
As correctly noted, the child will likely be considered to be kosher in any event. So why not bother to find out the true paternity?
ReplyDeletewithin three days there still may be zerah of the first baal
ReplyDeleteOffspring may have two fathers
getting engaged is a diffrent matter ....How long was the first couple estanged? ...and
ReplyDeleteYou are correct, that halachically, sperm is considered viable for three days. However you are incorrect, biologically.
ReplyDeleteThere’s simply no way a new baby can simultaneously be born from more than one sperm.
The moment a sperm penetrates the egg, there is a biochemical change which prevent other sperm from fertilizing it. For all practical purposes,
it's first come, first served, no if's or but's. Therefore even if a woman has sperm from two or more men in her body, only one sperm will get to donate its DNA, thus only one man is the father.
So he doesnt marry his sister!
ReplyDeleteZera is kolet only only from one and ovum snaps shut. There are no twins in this case. Only one is the father.
ReplyDeletebaruch shekivanti. Sorry, I yet have not read your response, and right you are!
ReplyDeleteTrue, but reason the chasidim were shocked cuz derech haolam you need some blinking time after divorce and then before getting engaged you need to get to know each other. As far as mimi nisabra sara, this is begging for explanation.
ReplyDeleteBiologically - but what does it say in the talmud?
ReplyDeleteIf you think that you have a Talmudic source, that runs contrary to accepted biological science on this topic, I would be willing to explore it.
ReplyDeleteuntrue both in halacha and also sceince
ReplyDeleteSince Talmud quotes a sofek of who the particular father is, that eliminates the possibility of being from both.
ReplyDeleteAlso See "Hayemim bamidbar".
Tzar Klaster ponov shel Yitzkchak, is a siman muvhak, not so if it can be from both.
In science, you never found DNA from two parents in one child, not without cloning.
Kalonymus Anonymus says “since the Rav /BD have already determined the child to be kosher, there is no need to go muckraking, unless there is a political point to score against the Rav who made the psak.”
ReplyDeleteExcellent, KA. I agree 100%. I didn’t notice before “unless there is a political point to score against the Rav who made the psak”
Allow me to show my letter today:
1.I request permission to submit these papers concerning my motion 649 7/15/2019. I'm attaching an affidavit of service proving I mailed by UPS a true copy to Susan.
2.I'm making here a correction to my letter yesterday. Judges Rigler and Prus comment on defects in my court papers, saying I submit motions with defects. In Susan's package June 19, 2017 that included Rigler's September 2000 ruling Judge Rigler states: “This Court, in its last opinion, said that this decade-old separation action must end, and direct plaintiff-wife [sic Susan is ex-wife] to file an action for divorce.” Yes, this is my aim all these years---this decades-old separation action must end---the end of the QDRO. Judge Prus states: “Mr. Aranoff is ordered not to file any more applications.” I'm trying to end the separation action Susan started.
3.Judge Prus states: “The Court notes that the applications are defective as pursuant to Court Rules, Part J. Uniform Matrimonial Rules, Motions and Orders to Show Cause, \S23. The movant was required to make his application to this Court by Order to Show Cause but failed to do so.”
4.I claim Judge Prus is a hostile judge and that the 1995 Rigler Order of Separation is a forgery. Hostile means unfriendly; antagonistic. “a hostile audience” synonyms: antagonistic, aggressive, confrontational, belligerent, bellicose, pugnacious, militant, truculent, combative, warlike.
A hostile judge is a separate problem from a judge that refuses to hear a case. IR and others, tough question for a bet din with a couple that didn’t wait the required 3 months after a divorce but married immediately. My view is to be lenient, forgiving, and to close the case fast. Life goes on. Today with DNA, internet, cameras everywhere, facebook, etc the truth comes out in the end, maybe. The judges in bet din in Israel are not hostile judges, as some judges are down in America.
Can you bring any quotes?
ReplyDeleteI'm asking the kehal. Berel claims there is a source, tell us berel.
ReplyDeleteShow us a source please.
ReplyDeleteKahal knows not of such, if ever!
ReplyDeleteI second emotion. Nowhere is it ever mentioned of a child having two natural fathers, not in talmud, nor in science.
ReplyDeleteOn somewhat of a different topic, if you will. If a Kohen has a child from a goyish girl, is there ever a possibility of the child being a Kosher Kohen?
ReplyDeleteMaybe they were members of a Masonic temple.
ReplyDeleteQuestion on some different topic if I may, please. If a Kohen has a child with goyish girl, is there *any* possibility or method outside of Kessef metaher m.... for the child lavo bakahal and able to duchen? Asking since you are aknowledgeable.
ReplyDeleteIf the child converts, he'll be a yisroel, not a Cohen. If she converts first, then has the child.... That's a good question...
ReplyDeleteThank you for your prompt reply. Is there no issue of mamzeirus?
ReplyDeleteIf I can phrase it and ask it differently. Once impregnated, is there a manner or method of ever giving birth to the child as a kosher Kohen. Pondering.... if she converts while pregnant and marries the Kohen, giving birth as and while an eishes Kohen, does that prompt a possibility of being a Kosher Kohen?
(There is also a question whether a Kohen is allowed to marry such?) I do understand and appreciate that it is not so simple and straight forward.
If she converts first.... that is the issue and topic of horoso shelo bikdusha veleidoso bikdusha.
Anyone?
ambotyah
ReplyDeleteChassidim often get engaged after a five minute beshow.
ReplyDeleteYecholah Haeesha lihisaber msnei bnei adam
ReplyDeleteMareh makom please.
ReplyDeleteIs that iin reference to one child or fraternal twins
Can you name the two fathers? And where is it in science?
ReplyDeleteSource?
ReplyDeleteIm ken, why doesn't the Talmud list by the havchanah waiting period, as another possibility?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/02/baby-looks-like-ex-research
ReplyDeleteWith flies, not humans. Or is it? They are saying the zera may last longer, but flies don't live as long as humans.
ReplyDeleteDaf of masechet?
ReplyDeleteIf a Kohen impregnates a non-Jewish woman, the child is not considered a Yehudi, and needs geirus. After geirus, the child is considered a plain-vanilla Yisrael.
ReplyDeleteMarriage of a pregnant woman to a Kohen, does not transfer Kehuna to the child, since he was sired by a non-Kohen. Adoption by a member of a particular Tribe, does not transfer Tribal affiliation to the adopted child.
A Kohen is forbidden to marry a Giyores. If he does, the children born to them do not have the status of Kohen. Their lineage is defiled, and they are considered "Chalalim".
That's how I understood it. I did read an provocative essay (not a phantom one) where it was claimed that matrilneal halacha is for the tribe of Yehuda, but the other tribes can decide for themselves what they consider to be the rules. I have not been able to find it again, unfortunately, so i can't give a source.
ReplyDeletewould you care to elaborate? which ambotya do you refer to?
ReplyDeleteIf a Kohen impregnates a non-Jewish woman, the child is not considered a Yehudi, and needs geirus. After geirus, the child is considered a plain-vanilla Yisrael.
ReplyDeleteIf the mother converted while pregnant, the child needs no conversion since ubar yerech imo. Since her conception was without violation, would kehuna be transfered? If in such instance the child is still considered plain vanilla, suppose the child is moved to *makom she'ein makirim oso*, brought up in a Kohen's family, and people thought all along that he was part of the family, or even if not of the immediate family but from the paternal Kohen side of the family, can status change? In any case thanks so much for the time, info and effort!
Two items illustrating Hertz Chumash p.739: interesting for me---fits my biases. Yes I have biases: I’m anti-radical feminists and I’m anti the NY Times.
ReplyDeleteBias = prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair. "there was evidence of bias against foreign applicants" synonyms: prejudice, partiality, partisanship, favoritism, unfairness,
See http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/24261
“When an organization that hardly musters 100 participants on a good month sets an agenda to pray “as we want” at a religious site with 1,500 years of prayer tradition and 10 million annual visitors, when the only barometer of morality is the “I”, when the service of God revolves around personal preferences, and the sanctity of prayer is usurped to prove a point, all means justify the end.”
See https://www.wsj.com/articles/sarah-palins-suit-against-new-york-times-revived-by-appeals-court-11565113483
“A federal appeals court on Tuesday ruled that former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin can proceed with a defamation lawsuit against the New York Times over a 2017 editorial that suggested the Republican politician had helped incite political violence.”
SCOTUS 18-9390 and NYS COA 649 seeks if I can proceed in my complaints and have a hearing. Why not? I’m trying to close the actions against me. Yes, I see ramifications on others wanting to make Aliyah. Allow me to quote from Judge Prus 11/18/2016:Two items illustrating Hertz Chumash p.739: interesting for me---fits my biases. Yes I have biases: I’m anti-radical feminists and I’m anti the NY Times.
Bias = prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair. "there was evidence of bias against foreign applicants" synonyms: prejudice, partiality, partisanship, favoritism, unfairness,
See http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/24261
“When an organization that hardly musters 100 participants on a good month sets an agenda to pray “as we want” at a religious site with 1,500 years of prayer tradition and 10 million annual visitors, when the only barometer of morality is the “I”, when the service of God revolves around personal preferences, and the sanctity of prayer is usurped to prove a point, all means justify the end.”
See https://www.wsj.com/articles/sarah-palins-suit-against-new-york-times-revived-by-appeals-court-11565113483
“A federal appeals court on Tuesday ruled that former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin can proceed with a defamation lawsuit against the New York Times over a 2017 editorial that suggested the Republican politician had helped incite political violence.”
SCOTUS 18-9390 and NYS COA 649 seeks if I can proceed in my complaints and have a hearing. Why not? I’m trying to close the actions against me. Yes, I see ramifications on others wanting to make Aliyah. Allow me to quote from Judge Prus 11/18/2016:
A kohen is not permitted to marry a a giyoret, so as far as I know, it makes the child a chalal, just as it would if he married a Divorcee.
ReplyDeleteLol, sometimes without any beshow's. The boy comes home, and Walla, the father informs him you are engaged, Mazel tov. Remember the shiduch of Yitchak and Rivka, although Avraham put forth conditions, and Eliezer did some more to make sure it's a passende shiduch, and Yitzchak had no objections, outside of peeking under the *Tzaif* while she dismounted from the camel. That was then, but this is now.
ReplyDeleteAt this point, I must clarify again the question, please. An unmarried Kohen, a bachelor had a relationship with a non-Jewish unmarried girl and she became pregnant. She never had intentions of ever marrying him, nor did she marry him, nor did she ever marry a Jew altogether. (A possible intent was doing her child a favor so as to have friendly, peaceful kosher environment while bringing up and go on with life as a Kosher Kohen Jew without serious 'Pgam'. If she converted to Judaism while pregnant (Giyur Kehalacha), where the unborn child does not need Giyur, since ubar yerech imo, what is the fate of the child? Is there any manner, method under the son to ever become a Kosher Kohen B'Yisrael. Suppose nigleh lemakom she'ein makirin oso and grew up with related paternal family members that are also Kohanim, or any other manner of which I am not familiar? I happen to ask this as halacha lemaisse, of a long ago historical happening, and the Rabbanim of those times were totally committed to Shulchan Aruch (don't claim to know who they were), the family was strictly Orthodox and still and all, the child has been recognized as a Kohen, doing duchenen, buried as a Kohen etched in stone etc. Trying to solve the mystery, so anyone that can clarify how such can become to be, is appreciated.
ReplyDeleteI would also like to ask the mediator Rav Doniel Eidensohn if he can present this query to his brother, a big Talmud Chacham and a big expert in such matters! I also would like to apologize, not trying to be a troll Thaks to all!
Don't recall of which Navi it is claimed to happen. To my recollection, it is only one deah of happening so. What is mareh makom yecholah isho lehiosaber mishnei anoshim?
ReplyDeleteIt's alleged to have happened to Yirmiyahu, and his daughter conceived in the mikve, the offspring was Ben Sira. But that is not about 2 fathers.
ReplyDeleteThis week’s parsha: “I charged your magistrates at that time as follows, Hear out your fellow men...”
ReplyDeleteדברים פרק א פסוק טז
וָאֲצַוֶּה אֶת שֹׁפְטֵיכֶם בָּעֵת הַהִוא לֵאמֹר שָׁמֹעַ בֵּין אֲחֵיכֶם וּשְׁפַטְתֶּם צֶדֶק בֵּין אִישׁ וּבֵין אָחִיו וּבֵין גֵּרוֹ
מדרש תנאים לדברים פרק א פסוק טז
בין איש ובין אחיו אין לי אלא בין איש לאיש בין איש לאשה בין אשה לאיש בין אומה למשפחה בין משפחה לחברתה מנ' ת"ל בין איש ובין אחיו מכל מקום:
רש"י דברים פרשת דברים פרק א פסוק טז
ואצוה את שפטיכם - אמרתי להם הוו מתונים בדין, אםכ בא דין לפניך פעם אחת שתים ושלש אל תאמר כבר בא דין זה לפני פעמים הרבה אלא היו נושאים ונותנים בו:
משנה מסכת אבות פרק א משנה א
משה קבל תורה מסיני ומסרה ליהושע ויהושע לזקנים וזקנים לנביאים ונביאים מסרוה לאנשי כנסת הגדולה הם אמרו שלשה דברים הוו מתונים בדין והעמידו תלמידים הרבה ועשו סייג לתורה:
The Sapirstein Chumash translates הוו מתונים בדין Be patient in judgment. Soncino on Avoth: be patient in [the administration of] justice.
Upstate, SCOTUS 18-9390: Lower Ct: Court of Appeals of New York
Case Numbers: (Mo. No. 2019-266)
Decision Date: May 9, 2019
DISTRIBUTED for Conference of 10/1/2019.
I called them. Yes, I can call SCOTUS and they talk to me. They tell me I’m among the very large number of the very first votes by all the judges after the summer break. They will notify me October 7, 2019 10:15 am. I asked them about my many letters I sent them, copy to Susan and NYS COA, sent by UPS---goes into the analyst file.
Patience = the capacity to accept or tolerate delay, trouble, or suffering without getting angry or upset. "you can find bargains if you have the patience to sift through the dross"
synonyms: forbearance, tolerance, restraint, self-restraint, resignation, stoicism, fortitude, sufferance, endurance
Do I have patience? Does Trump have patience? Does Netanyahu have patience?
Does the NYS COA have patience? Does SCOTUS have patience? The Torah tells judges to have patience. Beautiful.
In another comment, you allege that this story actually happened, and the child was considered to be a Kohen. I can’t take responsibility for a hearsay story, or comment on an unknown alleged psak. However the story as posed definitely raises serious questions as to the proficiency of the rabbi/s allegedly involved.
ReplyDeleteIf a Kohen impregnates a gentile woman, the conception is invalid with respect to the ability of transferring tribal lineage to the fetus. Put simply, the fetus that is created does not relate to the father whatsoever, only to the mother, and therefore the fetus is considered to be a complete gentile.
Therefore, even if we say that the fetus is considered as undergoing the process of conversion in utero, all this is immaterial in transferring tribal lineage (“Kehuna”) to the newborn child, since converts are NOT granted any tribal lineage.
This is found explicitly in the sefer “Halachos Gedolos” (Siman 32) (Warsaw edition, p. 128) (Machon Yerushalayim edition, p. 348):
לקח שפחה ובא עליה, ונתעברה הימנו, ואחר כך שיחררה והטבילה לשם חירות, ואחר כך ילדה, אותו ולד גר הוי, ואין צריך טבילה, דסגי ליה בטבילת אמו, ולענין נחלה לא ירית ליה, דלאו בריה מקרי, דבעינא זרע שנזרע בקדושה, וליכא.
וכן מי שנשא את הגויה, שלא הטבילה לשום גירות, ונתעברה [הימנו], ואח"כ הטבילה וילדה, אותו ולד גר הוא, ואין צריך טבילה, דסגי ליה בטבילת אמו, דאמר רבה נתגיירה מעוברת וילדה בנה אין צריך טבילה, ולענין נחלה לא ירית ליה, דלאו בריה מקרי, ואי נקבה היא, בין מן הנכרית, ובין מן השפחה, כשרה לישראל, ואסירא לכהן.
I am trying to do here a reverse engineering, and don't allege to know whether these are 'all' the facts or just part of the facts involved. I only know facts on the ground currently, as of today that the offsprings are alleged to be Kohanim that do Duchen, don't allege ( don't know nor did I ask) anything about performing other duties e.g. Pidyon haben etc. Here is what I do know, an unmarried Kohen teenager back in history, impregnated a goyte unmarried teenager girl, gave birth to a boy that was raised by a relative of the same Kohen family far away from the birthplace. The Rabbis of those townships (birthplace or where growing up) were ones of prominence, orthodox and proficient poskim, but don't claim to know which in particular were involved, I therefore am in the belief that they knew what they were doing and did according to Halacha! This much of the historical facts I was privy, and don't claim to know if/whether there is/was more to it or not.
ReplyDeleteIn either case of the Halochos Gedolos whether being a shifcha or a wife, she has no independence and ownership of herself, and I am not versed enough if and whether it has any adverse effect or not. They all have the tombstones engraved the nesias kapayim, ve'ein odom morish sheker lebonov if that is of any help. The story is true, the facts are true, however I am trying to figure out the dynamics, how they are able to be a functional Kosher Kohen, at least for duchening, provided that tvila only promotes to be a ger tzedek b'Yisrael. My question is for historical value only of what the Halacha is and how can such be performed to upgrade from Yisrael to a Kohen? Thank you again for all your efforts in this ambition.
Shabbat Shalom
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Veten leChacham Veyechkam Od!
ReplyDeleteDear Israeli Reader,
After doing some more thorough research and findings of facts, it is exactly the way you quoted. That puts the case to rest, and lots of people rest in peace. Had been corresponding with other researchers for a while, and everything adds up, ve'ein simcha kehatores hasfeikos. Can't thank you enough, for taking your time and effort!
You are indeed a big Talmid Chacham, and a very knowledgeable person, Veten leChacham veyachkam Od!
Wondering whether you are Toroso Umnoso?
Avos 2:7
ReplyDeleteמרבה ישיבה מרבה חכמה
(I happen to have more מראה מקומות on the topic, and if it's נוגע למעשה we can communicate by email: israelreader at g mail dot com).
You write, "That puts the case to rest, and lots of people rest in peace."
I understand why it should put the case to rest, because I've demonstrated that that's the Halacha. But I don't understand why "lots of people rest in peace".
To the contrary, this should open up a big can of worms!
How is it that the Halacha was not followed?
Allegedly, the child was recognized as a "Kohen", "duchened", was buried as a Kohen (etched in stone), and presumably his offspring are walking around masquerading as fake Kohanim.
They make a bracha le'vatala when they "duchen", and any money received by them for Pidyon Ha'ben is "geneiva".
They're also being מכשיל people to believe that their first-born son has been redeemed, when in fact they haven't been redeemed at all.
Moreover, their sham contributes to ruining the integrity of what is known as חזקת כהונה (see Chazon Ish, EH, 3).
ואם הדברים היו ממש דמו שהוצגו כאן, אז צריך עיון גדול על בית דין שיצאו תקלה כזאת מתחת ידם
Dear Israeli reader,
ReplyDeleteThis has been an incident of many decades ago, and findings NOW of clear solid facts have put many to peace. What I recently discovered is, that those direct decendants of the lovechild do not do any avodat kehuna and are truly Yisraelim of whatever is still left. One mistakenly considered himself as a Levi (not frum), since he recalled his ancestor(s) have been washing the hands of Kohanim before the Avoda. I therefore clarified that it was because he was a Bechor, indeed having acknowledged as such, but he was not a Levi, just a plain vanilla Yisrael. The other decendants from the 'Brothers' of this lovechild having a full fledged Jewish mother, lived as Kosher Kohanim life as you quoted, and only those have it etched in stone and rightfully so, but they did not elaborate because 'mipnei ma'aseh shehaya. The one Not etched, t'was mentioned 'only' as the son of a Kohen, but no hands marked. Therefore, one direct lineage consider themselves full fledged, and the others (from the lovechild) only as Yisrael although not so much in reality (hardly a yisrael). Those from only as related, wished to know more of who, what and when, has now been clarified to due diligence, along with your help. And That, brought many people to peace since everything was in accordance to Halacha, set History straight, veHakol ba al mekomo beShalom, VeShalom al Yisrael. Thanks again! And if you wish to send more mar'eh mekomot, I would gladly see, but only meshim Yagdil Torah veYa'adir.
P.S. much info came to light recently and clarified as far as the matzevot, who is who, since many similar names functioned. And that is all, my friend
Please read my reply further down the line (Ehud to Ehud). App does not work correctly. TY
ReplyDeleteMy only remaining question is how this "lovechild" became a Yehudi?
ReplyDeleteThe given was that the mother wasn't a Yehudi.
She converted while pregnant, didn't marry the Kohen (bo'el), and merely gave her baby to him to raise?
I'm in midst of getting the sha'ar yerokos dribbling in. I did get info that the pair never married, of which leaves the only option - for Giyur. The father did get married down the line with an isha kshera kedas ukedin, and lived happily ever after. The child was raised within family Kohanim members, and am waiting for more precise information, as of by whom. Other than that, I have no further questions on this saga outside of just historical facts that has no bearing on Halachic aspects, since All are ksherim ele leKohanehem, ve'ele leYisroelehem. Yes, the baby was given to be raised to the father of the child (family member). Will get more info as trickling in. Thanks again
ReplyDeleteIt was only I, that was pondering the possible options before doing both, process of elimination and trickling in info. I therefore put this saga to rest, and happy that everything else was done kedas ukedin! The decendants for themselves do know, but not too forthcoming lol, bishvil ma'asseh shehoyo.
Hypothetical case: woman is pregnant by other man before the get _ and receives the get before giving birth. Is the child still a mamzer?
ReplyDeleteThe bottom line is that the child needed "geirus" in order to become a Yehudi. The question is, how was this "geirus" achieved?
ReplyDeleteGeirus in utero?
Ger Kattan?
Quite simple. Since the child had a Jewish name= he had a Brit= ger katan uger Tzedek, and by the Brit the baal haBrit read ze hakatan gadol yihye. I read also from matzeiva his jewish name, and father's jewish name. Furthermore, I firmly believe that the Geirus Katan was kedas ukedin ukehalacha. The mother never converted, just gave the child over to the Jewish home (yet waiting for the rest of the info) to be brought up.
ReplyDeleteJust if I may, she was an eishes ish while impregnated, is a classical mamzer mehudar with all the pitchevkes.
ReplyDelete