Guest post Cross-Currents
Daas Torah
Daas Torah
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/01/rav-reuven-feinstein-proposes-takanah.html
Rabbi Yitzchok Adlerstein endorsed, publicized, and even added his own further accusations to the baseless “seruv” against Aharon Friedman issued by R. Aryeh Ralbag and his enterprise doing business as the Union of Orthodox Rabbis of the United States and Canada. http://daattorah.blogspot. com/2012/03/aide-to-top- republican-refuses-to.html
As Rabbi Reuvain Feinstein noted, one who signs on to an invalid seruv [deserves] to be in Nidoi and he proposes that a takana be made for that] Thus, Rabbi Adlerstein [deserves] to be in Nidoi. However according to Rav Gestetner there would be no need for a takana and in fact such a person should be placed in Nidoi according to Chaim Be Yad (88) [see above for the text.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/ 2016/01/baltimore-beis-din- apologizes-for-many.html
In the article, Rabbi Adlerstein endorses the “seruv” against Aharon, and adds the further accusations that Aharon is mocking the “beleaguered halachic system” and manipulating halacha.
Tamar unilaterally relocated the parties’ child from Maryland, where the family lived, to Pennsylvania, over Aharon’s objections, and then perjured herself by falsely claiming to the court that she did not do so, before later acknowledging to the court that she had done so. It is not generally a criminal offense for one parent to unilaterally relocate a child. However, such action is regarded extremely negatively by the law and the courts. The unilateral relocation of a child by one parent is “reprehensible” and the law is meant to “ensure[] that abducting parents will not receive an advantage for their unjustifiable conduct” – including a “parent who abducts the child pre-decree.” Comment to Section 208 of the Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction & Enforcement Act [codified by nearly every State, including MD and PA]. In and of itself, it is quite remarkable that Rabbi Adlerstein did not think it relevant to mention the child abduction in writing about the matter.
Given the harsh manner in which the law views such child abductions and the remarks of the judge at an earlier emergency hearing in the case, there was every reason to believe that the child would be returned at a October 2008 pendete lite trial calendared in civil court. Aharon nevertheless agreed to cancel that trial when Tamar agreed to have the matter adjudicated in the Baltimore Beis Din if the parties could not reach an agreement. The Baltimore Beis Din held three hearings in the matter with the participation of both parties. Tamar then violated the orders of the Baltimore Beis Din regarding dismissing the case from civil court in order to have the matter decided by civil court instead of Beis Din.
Tamar successfully argued in civil court that the child should remain in Pennsylvania given the time that the child had already been in Pennsylvania before trial, and specifically argued that the time that had elapsed should be prejudicial because Aharon had voluntarily dismissed the earlier pendete lite trial to bring the case to Beis Din. Thus, Tamar manipulated Aharon’s bringing the case to the Baltimore Beis Din to treat her abduction of the child as a fait accopmpli.
Even at the time of Rabbi Adlerstein’s Cross-Currents article it was known that the “seruv” was without any basis.
The Baltimore Beis Din had previously stated in the Washington Jewish Week: ”Currently, the Epstein-Friedman case remains open but dormant, as “neither party has approached” the Baltimore beit din, requesting that it reconvene, according to Rabbi Mordechai Shuchatowitz, a rabbi on the court. “Right now,” he said, “the ball is in [Epstein’s] court” because, as the party seeking the get, she is responsible for reinitiating proceedings. Since the court has yet officially to order a get, Shuchatowitz said, it’s “a bit premature” to be holding rallies and other events meant “to pressure [Friedman] because he’s not been given his day in court.” After all, “you can’t disobey something you’ve not been told to do.”
Furthermore as the Baltimore Beis Din later noted, even had the case never been brought before the Baltimore Beis Din, the Union of Orthodox Rabbis had no authority to issue a seruv against Aharon.
After failing to pressure the Baltimore Beis Din to order that a get be given, Tamar unsuccessfully attempted to have at least two other batei dinim, the Washington Beis Din and the Beis Din of America, intervene against Aharon. Failing to find an actual beis din to attack Aharon, she hired the criminal enterprise doing business as the Union of Orthodox Rabbis to issue a baseless “seruv” against Aharon. Shamefully, Rabbi Adlerstein and the editors of Cross-Currents piled upon Aharon citing this baseless “seruv” and what they claimed were Tamar's "impressive list of rabbinic supporters." Even after the subsequent letter from the Baltimore Beis Din proclaiming Aharon's innocence and again stating that any attacks against Aharon were wrong, Rabbi Adlerstein and Cross-Currents have refused to retract their baseless attack against Aharon.
So in their baseless attack against Aharon, it is Rabbi Adlerstein and the editors of Cross-Currents who are guilty of mocking and manipulating halacha and the halachic system. And, as noted by Rabbi Reuvain Feinstein [ a takana should be made while according to Rav Gestetner based on the Chaim BeYad (88), Rabbi Adlerstein and the editors of Cross-Currents are therefore in cherem (nidoi).
Update: Objections were raised regarding the term Cherem. The more correct term is Nidoi - which is a form of cherem . It was also objected that the author presented no source that someone who is not a dayan should be punished for writing a letter supporting a phony seruv. Rav Reuven Feinstin only proposed that there should be such a takana. However the author of the guest post responded that Rav Gestetner clearly says that those who publicize the false seruv also deserves nidoi. He cites the Responsa of Chaim BeYad (88) as his source.Rav Gestetner (2nd to last paragraph). I just corrected the text to note that Rav Feinstein is proposing that at takana be made to punish with nidoi those who write letters supporting a phony seruv but that Rav Gestetner based on Chaim BeYad (88) says that one who publicizes a phony heter is to be placed in Nidoi.
שו"ת חיים ביד סימן פח
לאיסטאנקייו אייר התרכ"ה ליצירה.
שאלה מעשה שהיה כך היה בעיר אחת שאמר ראובן
לשמעון מתוך מחלוקת ושינאה שהיה ביניהם שרב הגדול אשר בעיר ואם בישראל החרים אותך
על ככה ושמעון הנז' כשומעו את הדבר הזה התעצב עד מאד ויחר לו כי איך יתכן שרב גדול
בתורה יחרים אותו בלי דרישה וחקירה אם ראוי להחרים ותכף כתב אגרת להרב הנז' אם אמת
הדבר והיתה תגובת הרב כי לא היו דברים מעולם ושקר ענה באחיו העל אלה דינא קבעי
שמעון על ראובן שיחרימו אותו על אשר דיבר סרה להוציא עליו ש"ר =שם רע=
יודיענו מה דינו.
תשובה איתא בגמ' פ"ק דקדושין כ"ח
ע"א הקורא לחבירו עבד חייב נידוי ממזר סופג את ארבעים וכתבו התוס' שם שהוא
מידה כנגד מידה הוא קרא לחבירו עבד דהוא ארור מקללין אותו בארור דהיינו נידוי
וכ"כ הריטב"א ז"ל שם בחי' מידה כנ"מ =כנגד מידה= דאיהו מוקים
ליה בארור כדכתיב ארור כנען ולפיכך מנדין אותו בנידוי בו אלה בו חרם ע"כ והרי
אם בקורא לחבירו עבד דלא משמע להו לאינשי שהוא ארור עכ"ז מנדין אותו שעבד
כנעני נאמר בו ארור כנען כ"ש אם קורא אותו ארור בהדייא דודאי דחייב נידוי ואם
גם בקורא לחבירו ארור בהדייא מצי להפטר בהתנצלות כי שוגג כי לא ידע שחרור בו חרם
ויהיה נאמן כמ"ש הרב כנה"ג בח"מ סימן ת"ך הגה"ט אות ע'
והרב בני חיי שם הגב"י אות ל"א כמו שיע"ש ועיין עוד שם בכנה"ג
ובספר בני חיי ובס' דבר משה ח"ב סימן צ"ג ד"ק ע"א ובס' חשק
שלמה חח"מ רס"י ז"ך בהגה"ט אות א'. דהקורא לחבירו ארור בהדייא
מנדין אותו זולת כשמתרץ בדיבוריה כי לא ידע כי בשם ארור בו חרם משא"כ
בנ"ד שאמר בפירוש שהרב החרימו שהטיל עליו שם חרם והרי כתב הרב מוהראנ"ח
ז"ל בתשו' ח"א סימן צ"ג והביאו הרב כנה"ג שם בח"מ סי'
ת"ך הגה"ט אות נ"ב והרב בני חיי שם הגב"י אות ט"ו הקורא
לחבירו מוחרם מנודה חייב נידוי יע"ש וכ"כ מוהרש"ל ביש"ש
בב"ק פ' החובל סי' מ"ד דפ"ו ע"ג וז"ל וה"נ מי שקראו
לחבירו מנודה או אמ"ל אתה עברת על החרם חייב בנידוי ל' יום כמו שקראו עבד
מטעם מידה כנגד מידה יע"ש. ועיין עוד מ"ש מוהראנ"ח בתשו' ח"ב
סימן כ"ד והביאו הרב כנה"ג שם אות ג"ן דהאומר לחבירו שהוא מנודה
תלוי במחלוקת רש"י ותוס' שלדעת רש"י הוי כמו קורא אותו רשע ולדעת התוס'
חייב נידוי יע"ש.
ונראה לומר דיותר הסברא נותנת דחייב כשהוציא
ש"ר ודבר שקר לומר שהוא מוחרם מפי אדם גדול שמחזיק החרם בכח גדול דהגם שכתב
מוהראנ"ח שם בח"א סימן צ"ה שמה שקרא אותו מנודה ומוחרם שאין לדון
אותו כדין המנדה את חבירו שלא כדין שהוא לא נידה ולא החרים אותו אלא שאמר שהוא
מנודה ומוחרם מ"מ גם בכיוצא בזה איכא עונש נידוי ואמינא לה מההיא דהקורא
לחבירו עבד יהא בנידוי וכו' יע"ש כ"ש כשאמר לו שהוא מוחרם מפי אדם גדול
הרי הוא ממש כמי שקראו מנודה ומחורם יותר מפי עצמו ובודאי דחייב נידוי ועוד איכא
להחמיר בנ"ד כי מאחר שדיבר שקר שהרב נידהו הרי הוא כפוגע בכבוד הרב שנידה
לאדם על לא חמס בכפיו והוי מנדה למי שאינו חייב נידוי כי בכה"ג גם הרב
מוהראנ"ח מודה כי הוא חייב נידוי הן מצד שעשאו להרב שמנדה למי שאינו חייב הן
שנגע בכבוד הרב שמדבר עליו שקר כי כן שורת הדין נותנת כי זה האיש אשר הוציא דיבה
רעה על חבירו שהרב נידהו ולא היו דברים מעולם שיקבל עצמו התרה וקודם כל ילך ויפייס
לחבירו על הדבר הזה והמוחל לא יהיה אכזרי וימחול לו ויעשו לו התרה והרב גם כן יעשה
לו התרה וימחול לו. ואני אמרתי מוסר השכל במסיבת הועד של ראשי המדינה הביטו וראו
ראשונים כמלאכים ואת אחרונים פוסקי הלכות סידרו אחר הלכות נידוי וחרם. הלכות
בק"ח וקריעה והספד ואבלות לרמוז דהחי יתן אל לבו בין המנדה בין המנודה דסופו
ליפול במשכב וימות ויספדו לו ויתאבלו עליו ועל מה זה יהיה קשה כארז ולא יהיה רך
כקנה כי אדם להבל דמה ימיו כצל עובר ומי גבר יחיה ולא יראה מות. האל ברחמיו
יזכינו. להכיר מיעוט ערכנו. ולעשות בכל דבר כרצון אבינו שבשמים אכי"ר.
---------------------------------Daas Torah
Daas Torah
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/01/rav-reuven-feinstein-proposes-takanah.html
Rabbi Yitzchok Adlerstein endorsed, publicized, and even added his own further accusations to the baseless “seruv” against Aharon Friedman issued by R. Aryeh Ralbag and his enterprise doing business as the Union of Orthodox Rabbis of the United States and Canada. http://daattorah.blogspot.
As Rabbi Reuvain Feinstein noted, one who signs on to an invalid seruv [deserves] to be in Nidoi and he proposes that a takana be made for that] Thus, Rabbi Adlerstein [deserves] to be in Nidoi. However according to Rav Gestetner there would be no need for a takana and in fact such a person should be placed in Nidoi according to Chaim Be Yad (88) [see above for the text.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/
In the article, Rabbi Adlerstein endorses the “seruv” against Aharon, and adds the further accusations that Aharon is mocking the “beleaguered halachic system” and manipulating halacha.
Tamar unilaterally relocated the parties’ child from Maryland, where the family lived, to Pennsylvania, over Aharon’s objections, and then perjured herself by falsely claiming to the court that she did not do so, before later acknowledging to the court that she had done so. It is not generally a criminal offense for one parent to unilaterally relocate a child. However, such action is regarded extremely negatively by the law and the courts. The unilateral relocation of a child by one parent is “reprehensible” and the law is meant to “ensure[] that abducting parents will not receive an advantage for their unjustifiable conduct” – including a “parent who abducts the child pre-decree.” Comment to Section 208 of the Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction & Enforcement Act [codified by nearly every State, including MD and PA]. In and of itself, it is quite remarkable that Rabbi Adlerstein did not think it relevant to mention the child abduction in writing about the matter.
Given the harsh manner in which the law views such child abductions and the remarks of the judge at an earlier emergency hearing in the case, there was every reason to believe that the child would be returned at a October 2008 pendete lite trial calendared in civil court. Aharon nevertheless agreed to cancel that trial when Tamar agreed to have the matter adjudicated in the Baltimore Beis Din if the parties could not reach an agreement. The Baltimore Beis Din held three hearings in the matter with the participation of both parties. Tamar then violated the orders of the Baltimore Beis Din regarding dismissing the case from civil court in order to have the matter decided by civil court instead of Beis Din.
Tamar successfully argued in civil court that the child should remain in Pennsylvania given the time that the child had already been in Pennsylvania before trial, and specifically argued that the time that had elapsed should be prejudicial because Aharon had voluntarily dismissed the earlier pendete lite trial to bring the case to Beis Din. Thus, Tamar manipulated Aharon’s bringing the case to the Baltimore Beis Din to treat her abduction of the child as a fait accopmpli.
Even at the time of Rabbi Adlerstein’s Cross-Currents article it was known that the “seruv” was without any basis.
The Baltimore Beis Din had previously stated in the Washington Jewish Week: ”Currently, the Epstein-Friedman case remains open but dormant, as “neither party has approached” the Baltimore beit din, requesting that it reconvene, according to Rabbi Mordechai Shuchatowitz, a rabbi on the court. “Right now,” he said, “the ball is in [Epstein’s] court” because, as the party seeking the get, she is responsible for reinitiating proceedings. Since the court has yet officially to order a get, Shuchatowitz said, it’s “a bit premature” to be holding rallies and other events meant “to pressure [Friedman] because he’s not been given his day in court.” After all, “you can’t disobey something you’ve not been told to do.”
Furthermore as the Baltimore Beis Din later noted, even had the case never been brought before the Baltimore Beis Din, the Union of Orthodox Rabbis had no authority to issue a seruv against Aharon.
After failing to pressure the Baltimore Beis Din to order that a get be given, Tamar unsuccessfully attempted to have at least two other batei dinim, the Washington Beis Din and the Beis Din of America, intervene against Aharon. Failing to find an actual beis din to attack Aharon, she hired the criminal enterprise doing business as the Union of Orthodox Rabbis to issue a baseless “seruv” against Aharon. Shamefully, Rabbi Adlerstein and the editors of Cross-Currents piled upon Aharon citing this baseless “seruv” and what they claimed were Tamar's "impressive list of rabbinic supporters." Even after the subsequent letter from the Baltimore Beis Din proclaiming Aharon's innocence and again stating that any attacks against Aharon were wrong, Rabbi Adlerstein and Cross-Currents have refused to retract their baseless attack against Aharon.
So in their baseless attack against Aharon, it is Rabbi Adlerstein and the editors of Cross-Currents who are guilty of mocking and manipulating halacha and the halachic system. And, as noted by Rabbi Reuvain Feinstein [ a takana should be made while according to Rav Gestetner based on the Chaim BeYad (88), Rabbi Adlerstein and the editors of Cross-Currents are therefore in cherem (nidoi).
I’m trying to figure out the reasons behind Ralbag etc in http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/03/aide-to-top-republican-refuses-to.html
ReplyDeleteSee, in my case (still before the NYS Court of Appeals motion 2017-262) the NYS courts fined me in total $25,000 fines after warning me to stop making motions, claiming each time my motions are frivolous. What did Aaron do wrong? Did Aaron speak silly and light-minded as the NYS courts claim I do ? I’d like some detail on what Aaron allegedly did wrong, other than refusing to go the Ralbag etc beit din instead of the Baltimore Beit din of Rabbi Shuchatowitz. Actually I’d like some detail on what I allegedly did wrong after I divorced Susan on her initiative in Ralbag’s beit din on February 17, 1993. I’m sure Aaron did nothing wrong same as I did nothing wrong, in the least. I wrote yesterday to the NYS Court of Appeals:
“Judge Kaye, Judge Pesce, Larry Rothbart, and Judge Rigler are missing the elephant in the room. The elephant in the room is Yemima. Popkin urged settlement on March 24, 1993 to close the case to Susan's benefit. Why? Once I remarry, Susan would get less child support award, because of NYS public policy of rights of a wife. The NYS Court of Appeals ruling makes the point that Helen has rights as a wife which the Appellate Division did not sufficiently consider. Yemima has rights as a wife. The NYS courts had not sufficiently considered Yemima's rights under NYS law. This is a new issue I'm bringing to the attention of the NYS Court of Appeals to justify their accepting my case for review.”
Cross currents link?
ReplyDeletehttp://cross-currents.com/2012/03/02/help-an-agunah-virtually/
ReplyDeleteThis is one baseless, and stupid, post. 1: It is about an article from 5 years ago. What warrants writing this now? 2: R' Reuven Feinstein state his ruling in reference those who sign an invalid seruv, not an outsider who writes that the seruv is a good idea. 3: Did R' Reuven Feinstein make his statement with regard to this particular seruv?
ReplyDeleteR' Eidensohn, this guest post does not meet your standards for relevancy, accuracy, or intellectual honesty.
Rav Ruvain Feinstein never put Rabbi Yitzchak Adlerstein in cherem, this is a ridiculous inference of yours!!!
ReplyDeleteYes the guest post is referring to an old post. It was posted now to note that even some of the best and brightest as well as sensitive members of our community - have issued statements that were wrong and harmful - and have never acknowledged the harm they caused by supporting something clearly violating halacha.
ReplyDeletePlease see the context of Rav Reuven's comment
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/search?q=feinstein+seruv
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/01/rav-reuven-feinstein-proposes-takanah.html
I still don't understand. 1: At the time R' Alderstein wrote his article, had R' Reuven Feinstein (or any other posek) ruled that it was a phony seruv? 2: Did R' Reuven Feinstein apply his "cherem" to outsiders, who merely express approval of a "phony" seruv, but did not actually sign it?
ReplyDeleteIf the answer to either of these questions is no, then the headline and accompanying guest post are just flat-out wrong.
at the time of the article it was known to those familiar with basic halacha that the seruv was phony
ReplyDeleteRav Reuven was simply quoting halacha.
The guest post assumes that not only is there a problem of issuing a phony seruv there is also one of publicly supporting the validity of a phony seruv.
I am not sure of the second point. While it is possible - don't know - that technically it does not incur nidoi - but it is clearly wrong.
bottom line the heading indicates the serious injustice that issuing or supporting a phony seruv produces. Feel free to produce an actual halachic source that this bottom line is not true
1: It was not common knowledge at that time. I don't think that at that point in time one could be faulted for following the lead of R' Shmuel Kamenestzky and R' Herschel Shachter on this issue.
ReplyDelete2: There is an obvious difference between issuing a phony seruv and writing a blog post supporting it. No one has ever claimed that someone can be put in cherem for writing a blog post taking the wrong side on a seruv issue. Therefore, the claim that R' Alderstein is in cherem is false. Remember, your guest post does not say that R' Alderstein acted injudiciously in writing his post. He claims that R' Alderstein is in cherem. It is your responsibility to either have the author of the post back up that claim or remove that slander from your website. It is not up to me to produce an actual halakhic source about anything, as there is no opinion to counter
3: Once again, I don't really understand why whoever your guest is woke up this morning and decided to write about a blog post from 5 years ago.
It is also known that Rabbi Adlerstein at the request of the RCC was called as a witness in the Lonna Meir Kin divorce trial in LA to convince the judge to force a GET on Meir Kin. Once again he meddled in a case that he knows nothing about. Today it appears that the Rabbis dont care about the ISSUR of using Secular courts! Their feminist minds are just focused in GET, GET, GET
ReplyDeleteIt was common knowledge that the Baltimore Beis Din was the only authorized Beis Din
ReplyDeleteWe are talking about nidoi
It is not waking up after 5 years - it is noting that there are others involved in this disaster other that Rabbi Kaminetsky who have not taken responsibility for their actions.
Once again, what is the basis for the claim written in big letters at the top of the post: "Rabbi Yitzchok Adlerstein and the editors of Cross-Currents are in Cherem"?
ReplyDeleteIf there is no basis for it, it should be changed. Simple enough.
That question should be posed, instead of slandering him.
ReplyDeleteR. Adlerstein is on the religious-left wing spectrum as his Jewish sympathies and worldview tend Modern Orthodox.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Adlerstein put himself in cheirem. It is an automatic cheirem that is mentioned in the Shulchan Aruch. Rav Reuvein Feinstein publicly acknowledged and affirmed, in writing that it's applicable in this particular case as well.
ReplyDeleteNonsense. Where does it say that someone can be in cherem for expressing support of the actions of a beis din?
ReplyDeleteEidim zomemim tochiach. If you have a hundred eidim against someone and were muzam, they all get punishment of ka'asher zomam, in spite that the eidus suffices with two. Same goes to Seruv, if you have the whole of RCA or any Beis Din Istatis, Chotzuf, Ziknei Mamre sign a false seruv, even when a husband doesn't exist, domom beroshom. Cherem takes automatically effect min Hashamayim, uklapei shmaya galye.
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/01/rav-reuven-feinstein-proposes-takanah.html
ReplyDelete*...which they ran around the world to find poskim who would agree to it. Finally getting Rav Greenblatt and Rav Feurst to agree to the heter - even though neither consulted the Baltimore Beis Din but relied entirely on the lies and distortions provided by the Kaminetskys*
Here is further proof mitocho umigabo as if from the horses mouth, with all these *gam ani mitzaref* to an already existing psak as a *count me in*, is counted as well. Vehodovor poshut! What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.
Once your again, your gibberish makes your comment all but indecipherable, but I think that the fact that the article from R' Alderstein was written 4 years before the hetter was issued should be enough to counter it.
ReplyDeleteMissing the point. R' Alderstein did not sign on any seruv.
ReplyDeleteNeither did the Eidim zomemim!
ReplyDeleteyou have no point...
.........................................................................
help yourself
http://cross-currents.com/2012/03/02/help-an-agunah-virtually/
Help an Agunah – Virtually
BY YITZCHOK ADLERSTEIN · PUBLISHED MARCH 2, 2012 · UPDATED MARCH 11, 2012
R Hershel Schachter has taken a personal role in applying public shame pressure against Friedman. While it is always possible to empathize with both sides in a dispute, at some point the law must speak. After a person has been given every opportunity to be heard in legal proceedings,
*any assistance given to the losing party is nothing less than a stab at the process of law itself*.
You don't have to sign anything. Disseminating a sweeping and overwhelming endorsement like RHS did for the RSK's, whether in phase 1 for a GET, or in phase 2 of Bitul haKidushin, whether verbally or in writing, is aiding and abetting/reinforcing an already given False Psak, is open to the wrath as stated in Shulchan Aruch.
Listen up Mr. BigGerish guy. Your missing the point. RA endorsed and gave his support for the FALSE Seruv which entitles him to the Cherem galore, whether you like it or not.
ReplyDeleteAttempting to intimidate with mischabed bikloin chavero is not a line of defence, kapish. If you have difficulties in comprehension, seek out for help. it just might do you a lot of good, Mr. BigGuy. You sound rather like *Oso es atzmo keilu lo yoda*, that doesn't cut.
I want to play the devil's advocate here - really we need a response from R' A'. There are many men ( and woman) who have got the bad end of a deal and yet they have decided to move on and build a new life instead of ruining both their own life and the life of their ex-spouse .Maybe not a good ma'shal but a teacher may have the right to expel a kid, but that over-kill may be the end of that kid. Refusing to give a get after so many years in the eyes of I think the majority of people is just doing that. Imho I think that the silence of the baltimore BD also palyed a part in the mess. The point I am making , is not whether is AF is halachically in the right, but is he morally right . And in people's eyes this overides if one is in the right or not . As I pointed out this is an attempt to understand the thinking of others who continue to object to AF. I am more inclined to put the blame on those who have been advising AF.
ReplyDeleteDespite your update, the closing sentence of the post: "And, as noted by Rabbi Reuvain Feinstein, Rabbi Adlerstein and the editors of Cross-Currents are therefore in cherem," is nothing less than motzi shem ra. Why not ask R' Reuven Feinstein if he thinks that R' Alderstein and the editors of Cross-Currents are in cherem before publishing such drivel?
ReplyDeleteAgain, by you there is no difference whether Motzi Shem Ra, or mechane shem lechaveiro, both are dvorim shel ma bekach. Eidim hamuzomim that were motzi shem ra on someone that they are ben grusha uben chalitza gets malkus, nevertheless it is va'asisem lo ka'asher zomam.
ReplyDeleteAccording to what I added in the update there is no motzi shem ra. Rav Feinstein was apparently not aware of the Chaim BeYad (88) source and therefore said there should be a takana. Rav Gestetner's comment clearly indicates there is no need for a takana. Both Rav Feinstein and Rav Gestetner clearly agree that Nidoi is appropriate for someone who publicly supports a false seruv.
ReplyDeletestrange that you think it is morally correct to ostracize someone for listening to the beis din! It is correct to have one's "moral outrage responses" governed by an authorized posek. The opposition is simply a mob of self-righteous individuals who feel that the woman is always correct and therefore anything that can support her against the husband is moral. this is not Torah nor morality! This is especially true now that Tamar claims she didn't need a Get. So what morality justifies afflicting Aharon in the name of obtaining that which the wife says is not needed?
ReplyDeleteBTW I am one of those who have been advising AF
Hunh?
ReplyDeleteWhile the latest (third) update may take away the overt motzi shem ra, I still question whether the entire topic applies to R' Alderstein, but I have said enough here.
ReplyDeleteI just corrected my response. It is clear that Rav Reuven statement includes Rav Adlerstein
ReplyDeleteHe clearly stated, "anyone who signs to enforce a seruv that is lo kedin is included in the cherem against one who issues a cherem that is lo kedin"
You apparently do not know the meaning of the term "enforce."
ReplyDeleteIt is clear that we are talking about someone who presents a phony seruv as valid and binding.
ReplyDeleteI said that the silence of the Baltimore BD and not being more vocal in support of AF contributed to this mess. For sure tamar
ReplyDeleteWhat sort of Takana are you talking about? A Takana that the majority can abide by? And how can a single posek make a Takana these days?
ReplyDeleteNot sure why you are asking the question. We have talked about communities making a takana that women can drive. Others restrict the nature of weddings in terms of amount of money or people involved etc. Other communities have restricted the acceptance of converts.
ReplyDeleteIf the community has a strong beis din it can make decrees for the community. Chassidic communities accept the takanas made by their rebbes. Rabbeinu Gershom made decrees whose authority comes from their widespread acceptance.
There is a four volume set Takanas Yisroel which goes through these issues
Hey Josh, look at all the names you call everyone around you. This is one baseless, and stupid, Missing the point, your gibberish makes, and on and on it goes.
ReplyDeleteEnforce: to put or keep in force; compel obedience to
ReplyDeleteOne without any binding authority cannot be said to be enforcing anything. Maybe you are confusing "enforce" with "endorse." If I say to my neighbor: "Hey, that was a great seruv R' Schachter issued," I am not enforcing his seruv. The same applies if I blog about it, and my last name is Alderstein.
Wow, a comment written entirely in English! Congrats, man, keep up the good work.
ReplyDeleteAnd FYI, those are descriptions of comments, not of people.
Aside from the fact that Rav Gestetner says no such thing - please give a case of someone who did not give a phony seruv but is enforcing it.
ReplyDeleteWhile it might be true that if you said "that was a great seruv" your statement would not be taken seriously, but when Rav Adlerstein or Rav Herschel Schachter writes that the seruv is valid and should be obeyed it clearly is taken seriously.
In short, it is not an issue of whether the validation comes from someone with binding authority but whether the phony seruv is perceived as being valid because of the person who said it.
Is it possible you're giving the importance of R. Adlerstein too much credit?
ReplyDelete“So in their baseless attack against Aharon, it is Rabbi Adlerstein and the editors of Cross-Currents who are guilty of mocking and manipulating halacha and the halachic system. And, as noted by Rabbi Reuvain Feinstein [ a takana should be made while according to Rav Gestetner based on the Chaim BeYad (88), Rabbi Adlerstein and the editors of Cross-Currents are therefore in cherem (nidoi).”
ReplyDeleteI agree. My complaint is that the Shulchan Aruch list 24 justifications for nidui and Cherem Yoreh Deah Laws of Nidui and Cherem 43. I read the seruv of the Ralbag etc and I don’t see which of the 24 justifications, if any, they’re claiming. The seruv just says that these rabbis approve the nidui but don’t give on what basis. I’m trying to figure out the reasons behind Ralbag etc in http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/03/aide-to-top-republican-refuses-to.html
Now that's what you might call a stupid comment, and not of rofl people.
ReplyDeleteIs this the mysterious shamir?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.businessinsider.com/bizarre-wormlike-creatures-eat-rock-poop-sand-and-redesign-rivers-2019-6?utm_content=buffereec6e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer-bi&fbclid=IwAR19tXR3h6D7jOiOgZF_EYIzdVsCdGm9yQIwaqHQqGf2QN2RmsFvTBy-eKw&r=US&IR=T
It is known that Rabbi adlerstein no only came out against Meir Kin but even came to SECULAR COURT to convince a judge to throw the NY GET LAW against him in California!!! So he now adds MESIRA to his list of Torah Violations committed by falsly accusing a man who has his Bais Din indicating that meir Kin is following Halocho. To prove to all that these rabbonim are corrupted is the fact that you dont see the corrupt rabbis attacking the other bais din, but they cowardly attack the subject man because they act like hyenas who dont wait for the animal to die but they rip flesh while the animal is alive. Similarly the protocol should call for one bais din to attack the other but instead they go right for the jugular. So shame on Rabbi Adlerstein and the RCC bais din of los angeles for issuing a false seiruv against meir kin and then coming to Arkoos to testify falsely against the Torah. B'H the judge saw thru him and threw him out.
ReplyDelete“I just corrected the text to note that Rav Feinstein is proposing that at takana be made to punish with nidoi those who write letters supporting a phony seruv. Rav Gestetner based on Chaim BeYad (88) says that one who publicizes a phony heter is to be placed in Nidoi.”
ReplyDeleteExcellent. Beautiful. I enjoy reading the comments, particularly fedupwithcorruptrabbis. Surely supporting fake/phony court documents merits niddui.
Rabbis and feminists and others came to secular court to my cases to attack me:
2 Kings Supreme Court 0023213/1991 Disposed ARANOFF,SUSAN IRWIN H. HAUT, ESQ. ARANOFF,GERALD Gerald Aranoff 05/14/2007 MICHAEL A. AMBROSIO, 5B M
3 Kings Supreme Court 0046412/1992 Disposed ARANOFF,SUSAN POPKIN,ELIZABETH JACKSON ARANOFF,GERARD IAN ANDERSON 06/21/1995 WILLIAM RIGLER M
4 Kings Supreme Court 0054688/2012 Disposed ARANOFF,SUSAN TITONE & SERLIN, LLP ARANOFF,GERALD 11/16/2016 ERIC I. PRUS, 5A M
They attacked me “like hyenas who don’t wait for the animal to die but they rip flesh while the animal is alive.” Bravo: “So shame on Rabbi Adlerstein and the RCC bais din of los angeles for issuing a false seiruv against meir kin and then coming to Arkoos to testify falsely against the Torah. B'H the judge saw thru him and threw him out.”
B”H NYS courts jailed Gerald Garson for 4 years for bribery. God punished Gerald Garson in this world.
Sanhedrin 109b:
“Mishna. The spies have no portion in the world to come, as it is said, “those who spread such calumnies about the land died of plague, by the will of the Lord” (Numbers 14:37). Died [implies] in this world; by the plague in the next. The assembly of Korah have no portion in the world to come, as it is written, “They went down alive into Sheol, with all that belonged to them; the earth closed over them and they vanished from the midst of the congregation” (Numbers 16:33). And the earth closed upon them, [implying] in this world, and they perished from among the congregation in the next. This is R. Akiba's view. R. Eliezer said: of them the writ saith “The Lord deals death and gives life, Casts down into Sheol and raises up” (1 Samuel 2:6).”
I like the view of R. Eliezer. R. Akiva was political, thinking of the evil Romans and their hired thugs: to scare the bad people not to mess with him. Surely, R. Eliezer is closer to the truth. The Christians and Muslims are big experts on what happens to dead people. Plain reading of the Talmud: not clear who is right R. Akiva or R. Eliezer. Maybe KA, IR, Berel etc could enlighten us what is the truth?
All my NYS judges were terrible. Michael A. Ambrosio took over from Gerald Garson. William Rigler did most of 23213/1991 with Gerald Garson signing several rulings when William Rigler was ill before he died. Eric I. Prus accepted as valid a fake/phony 1995 Rigler order of separation, the subject of SCOTUS 18-9390.
Fedupwithcorruprabbis “It is also known that Rabbi Adlerstein at the request of the RCC was called as a witness in the Lonna Meir Kin divorce trial in LA to convince the judge to force a GET on Meir Kin. Once again he meddled in a case that he knows nothing about. Today it appears that the Rabbis don’t care about the ISSUR of using Secular courts! Their feminist minds are just focused in GET, GET, GET”
ReplyDeleteI add that their feminist minds are also focused on whatever she wants she gets---if she’s rich. Susan refused to join me in Israel to a rented apartment for the year. Instead she demanded a get. The Talmud is clear, she’s the moredet. Susan had many rabbis and supporters attacking me, in court and outside court. My theory was “You shall appoint magistrates and officials for your tribes, in all the settlements that the Lord your God is giving you, and they shall govern the people with due justice. You shall not judge unfairly: you shall show no partiality; you shall not take bribes, for bribes blind the eyes of the discerning and upset the plea of the just.” (Deuteronomy 16:18-19).
Surely, Korah gave large presents to his followers: “to rise up against Moses, together with two hundred and fifty Israelites, chieftains of the community, chosen in the assembly, men of repute.” (Numbers 16:2). Yes, they were chieftains of the community, chosen in the assembly, men of repute, yet bribes blind them. We see the work of bribes in Ezra: “They bribed ministers in order to thwart their plans all the years of King Cyrus of Persia and until the reign of King Darius [2] of Persia” (Ezra 4:5).
Yes, Susan was rich as Korah and I had nothing. Hard to explain how 250 chieftains of the community, chosen in the assembly, men of repute would support the foolishness of the Korah rebellion. My only explanation: Korah bribed all his supporters. KA, IR, Berel, Joe Orlow, others: what’s your explanation? Any thoughts? In the midrash Korah imagined he would survive.
רש"י במדבר פרשת קרח פרק טז פסוק ז
רב לכם בני לוי - דבר גדול אמרתי לכם. ולא טפשים היו שכך התרה בהם וקבלו עליהם לקרב, אלא הם חטאו על נפשותם, שנאמר את מחתות החטאים האלה בנפשותם. וקרח שפקח היה מה ראה לשטות זה, עינו הטעתו, ראה שלשלת גדולה יוצאה ממנו, שמואל ששקול כנגד משה ואהרן. אמר בשבילו אני נמלט, וכ"ד משמרות עומדות לבני בניו כולם מתנבאים ברוח הקודש, שנאמר (ד"ה א' כה, ה) כל אלה בנים להימן, אמר אפשר כל הגדולה הזאת עתידה לעמוד ממני ואני אדום, לכך נשתתף לבוא לאותה חזקה, ששמע מפי משה שכולם אובדים ואחד נמלט. אשר יבחר ה' הוא הקדוש, טעה ותלה בעצמו, ולא ראה יפה, לפי שבניו עשו תשובה, ומשה היה רואה. תנחומא:
“all these were sons of Heman, the seer of the king להימן חזה המלך, [who uttered] prophecies of God for His greater glory. God gave Heman fourteen sons and three daughters” (1 Chronicles 25:5).
Surely bribes played a role in the K-G garbage heter. Surely bribes played a role in the Mendel Epstein et al fake/phony seruvs etc.
did she initially agree to move with you to Israel? If so, why did she change her mind?
ReplyDeleteOh we all tried to get her to change her mind back. Deena wrote such a passionate letter. Rachel spoke up. Tsvi too. Also Yaffa and Aryea. Miriam, I don’t know. I thank God for everything. Why am I doing SCOTUS 18-9390? Why did the 250 chieftains of the community, chosen in the assembly, men of repute support the foolishness of the Korah rebellion? Why did Rabbi Alderstein go to the civil court to get the judge to force a get?
ReplyDeleteI always said that if the man is rich, he stands a chance to bribe the rabbis and win his case, but in a situation where the husband and wife are both financially equal, then by default the woman wins.
ReplyDeleteYes, If man is rich like Korah, he stands a chance to win in bet din though Agunah International and feminists will start take her side.. Why? The K-G garbage heter and Mendel Epstein et al with their fake/phony seruvs would never happen with man rich like Korah.
ReplyDeleteWith neither party rich like Korah, the beth din follows:
“A passerby who gets embroiled in someone else’s quarrel Is like one who seizes a dog by its ears. Like a madman scattering deadly firebrands, arrows, Is one who cheats his fellow and says, I was only joking. For lack of wood a fire goes out, And without a querulous man contention is stilled. Charcoal for embers and wood for a fire And a contentious man for kindling strife. The words of a querulous man are bruising; They penetrate one’s inmost parts.” (Proverbs 26:17-22).
With neither party rich like Korah in the USA civil courts: she wins. Why? The USA civil courts never follow Proverbs 26:17-22. Agunah International/feminists will help her win.