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While Learning about Nazir last week in Cheder, two 12-year-old children almost Bar Mitzvah apparently found it fascinating, and declared to the class that they’re becoming a Nazir!
Some of the stringencies of a Nazir include not being allowed to drink grape juice, cutting your hair, or going into a Bais Hakvaros.
Though they reportedly announced it was just for a minute or a day, the minimum length of time for Nezires is 30 days, thus putting them in a sticky situation because their declaration came just before their Bar Mitzvah.
The Rebbe decided to ask a Shaila, and approached one of the Lakewood Poskim. The Posek took the matter very seriously, and took the Shaila to the Philadelphia Rosh Yeshivah Reb Shmuel Kaminetzky Shlita.
On behalf of TLS, a Talmid of Reb Shmuel Kaminetzky Shlita inquired from the Rosh Yeshivah as to the accuracy of the incident, and the Rosh Yeshivah confirmed it was indeed the case, and the Shaila was brought before him.
“The Rosh Yeshivah said that he had Paskened that the children should keep the Dinim of Nezires, and that the children would have to go to a Rav to be Matir Neder. However, the Rosh Yeshivah said the children should only go after Shabbos, so they have time to reflect on the seriousness of a simple declaration.”
Please clarify what your point is with this post. Do you think that R' Shmuel is no longer Torah observant? Do you think that his talmidim will cease to direct any halachic inquiries to him? Do you think that he hasn't been asked hundreds of shaylos over the past few months?
ReplyDeleteOf course Rav Shmuel is Torah observant
ReplyDeleteNo I don't think his talmidim will cease to direct any halachic inquiries to him nor am I questioning that he has been asked hundreds of shaylos in the past months.
Now that that is cleared up - what point do Esav and Rav Shmuel have in common? Hint it is stated explicitly and clearly in the title of the post
Sorry, I don't get the hint. Chazal portray Esav as someone who violated every transgression in the book, and kept up appearances by asking his father questions such as how to separate ma'aser from salt. So, please, explain, what is the comparison to R' Shmuel?
ReplyDeleteWhy do you feel the need to attack the person instead of focusing solely on the issue itself?
ReplyDeleteThis issue has already been decided. There are no dissenters that the heter is no good. Rav Shmeul did officially accept Rav Dovid's psak that the heter is no good.
ReplyDeleteWe have long focused on the issue - but that simply has been ignored. He has given no justification for ignoring the obvious.
The one and only defense offered is the false claim that one can not criticize gedolim.
Perhaps you should look at the language of the Rambam as to the steps. Are you claiming that that is not what the Rambam says?
רמב"ם דעות ו
הלכה ח
המוכיח את חבירו תחלה לא ידבר לו קשות עד שיכלימנו שנאמר ולא תשא עליו חטא, כך אמרו חכמים יכול אתה מוכיחו ופניו משתנות ת"ל ולא תשא עליו חטא, מכאן שאסור לאדם להכלים את ישראל וכל שכן ברבים, אף על פי שהמכלים את חבירו אינו לוקה עליו עון גדול הוא, כך אמרו חכמים המלבין פני חבירו ברבים אין לו חלק לעולם הבא, לפיכך צריך אדם להזהר שלא לבייש חבירו ברבים בין קטן בין גדול, ולא יקרא לו בשם שהוא בוש ממנו, ולא יספר לפניו דבר שהוא בוש ממנו, במה דברים אמורים בדברים שבין אדם לחבירו, אבל בדברי שמים אם לא חזר בו בסתר מכלימין אותו ברבים ומפרסמים חטאו ומחרפים אותו בפניו ומבזין ומקללין אותו עד שיחזור למוטב כמו שעשו כל הנביאים בישראל.
You almost have it - think some more about it. It is not hard
ReplyDelete“On behalf of TLS, a Talmid of Reb Shmuel Kaminetzky Shlita inquired from the Rosh Yeshivah as to the accuracy of the incident, and the Rosh Yeshivah confirmed it was indeed the case, and the Shaila was brought before him. The Rosh Yeshivah said that he had Paskened that the children should keep the Dinim of Nezires, and that the children would have to go to a Rav to be Matir Neder.”
ReplyDeleteCan I ask Rabbi Kaminetzky on the accuracy that a licensed psychologist or psychologist wrote a damning statement (that Rabbi Kaminetzky was seeking such) on Aaron Freidman that Aaron is a mental case and was such at the time he married Tamar? Can I ask, if Rabbi Kaminetzky feels that Aaron is a mental case and was such at the time he married Tamar? Can I ask, if Aaron provides expert witnesses that Aaron is a regular guy and was such at the time he married Tamar, will Rabbi Kaminetzky feelings change? Will Rabbi Kaminetzky please clarify for us his position on Tamar living with her boyfriend, while her husband, Aaron, is alive and well and refuses to divorce her? Rabbi Kaminetzky please confirm to us that you indeed did search for an expert witness to testify against Aaron. Rabbi Eidensohn once showed some such letter of yours that indicated you were looking for a way to free Tamar without Aaron divorcing her. My feeling is that “Kaminetsky-Greenblatt Heter: Esav asked about maaser on salt - and also wasn't concerned about adultery.”
A well known Rambam. I haven't found any Psak Din from a reputable Beis Din or one of the G'dolim in your archives instructing that this be done to Rav Shmuel K. Again, I also question the validity of the heter but I still cannot understand why YOU must have a go at the person instead of solely focusing on the issue.
ReplyDeleteAgain look at the Rambam. Repeatedly focusing on the issue alone has not produced the obvious results.
ReplyDeleteThe Rambam doesn't say that one needs a psak. It isn't a complicated issue. The facts are known and well established. The need for tochacha are well known and established (see Rav Sternbuch's letters).
Do you need a psak from beis din or gedolim that you need to keep Shabbos?
Regarding the issue of why me - why not me? Do you think I have a lesser obligation than other Jews? I have put in a number of years already dealing with issues and topics that no one else wants to touch. You might want to read the posts on Tropper - especially this one
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2009/12/3-belzers-blogger-trying-to-understand.html
Rabbi Eidensohn,your obsession with RSK is absolutely embarrassing,please knock it off it already,it only hurts you and makes you look foolish,you made your point in hundreds of posts now get over it and move on to the next juicy LASHAN HORAH scandal
ReplyDeleteI am sorry to hear that you find the requirements of Torah embarrassing.
ReplyDelete. Perhaps next time you might contribute something intelligent to the discussion. Sounds like you should be in the beis medrash instead of finding vicarious thrills on the Internet searching out lashon harah
You are not really writing Tropper and Rav Shmuel K in the same post, are you? They are lightyears apart. Tropper was the object of a clear and unequivocal psak from Gdolei Yisroel around the world.
ReplyDeleteI'm asking you where's YOUR mandate to implement this Rambam?
Rav Sternbuch can speak for himself and always does... Has he given YOU a psak to apply this Rambam against Rav Shmuel? Again, I'm not saying the psak is correct but I am RESPECTFULLY questioning your approach as I think it does you and the issue at hand a huge disservice.
The commandment to Keep Shabbos comes from the Torah itself. Are you saying you have a Torah commandment to slander Rav Shmuel? On the other hand, the punishment for someone breaks Shabbos requires that the person be given clear and specific warnings about THE MELOCHAH AND THE AVEIRAH INVOLVED and not that the person be slandered... so, apply the same logic and keep on beating the drum to the tune of the flawed heter but leave alone Rav Shmuel's reputation as one has nothing to do with the other.
Hi Jack,
ReplyDeleteQuestion - Would you have a problem with it if Reb Daniel focused solely on the issue at hand instead of vilifying RSK?
I don't get it. There was a case many years where there was a wedding booth at a carnival, where teens made game of kiddushin. (Maybe a couple of similar cases). Why didn't just make a bittul kiddushin, makach taus and that's it?
ReplyDeleteEidensohn is EXCELLENT at character assassination. For example, he killed every single chance of anyone taking Beth Alexander seriously the moment he decided to become her advocate. I know for a fact and this is not speculation! As soon as he became associated with her cause, no major Jewish organization was willing to touch it. Sure, you do have a number of United Synagogue rabbis who signed a letter of support, but that letter was requested bt Ms Alexander herself, not by Eidensohn. His behaviour is very harmful to those he advocates for.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure Rabbi Kaminetzky must be losing his sleep over the fact that an insignificant ba'al loshon horah is badmouthing him.
Eidensohn, go put together another index book... that's what you are good at and should be remembered for, not this garbage.
Yes I am writing about Tropper and Rav Shmuel in the same post. Please explain how they are light years apart? What psak regarding Tropper are you referring to?
ReplyDeleteRav Sternbuch has written about the need to protest against this Heter. No he has not told me personally to use this Rambam against Rav Shmuel
Are you questioning the legitimacy of doing what the Rambam clearly says to do - or are you saying that pragmatically that it will not work?
What do you mean by slandering Rav Shmuel? Are you saying he was not responsible and is not responsible for adultery? Or are you saying that even though he is responsible for adultery - but no one should whisper those words?
What is comes down to is that Rav Shmuel can do anything and you are saying it can not be said that HE did anything. All that can be said is , Isn't it ashame that adultery is being committed?
Please tell me the logic of not stating He did something wrong but that Something was done wrong? The Rambam's psak clearly disagrees with you on that.
How can someone do something wrong and yet his reputation remains umblemished?! This is the ultimate teflon man.
This simply double-think or double-speak.
According to your logic also - I should not criticize Tamar Epstein for committing adultery - but can only say adultery is being committed? Or only gedolim have inherently perfect reputations that are incapable of being stained or discredited?
Please tell me the source for never talking about the individual responsibility of a gadol for wrong - but only about the misdeed that has been done? Even Moshe Rabbeinu was described as sinning. Is Rav Shmuel greater than Moshe Rabbeinu?
Interesting rewrite of history. So according to you the major organization were running around helping her (or were thinking of helping her) and when I stepped in they suddenly retracted?! I am glad you "know this for a fact" - because it isn't true.
ReplyDeleteI am sure you also are claiming that as a result of my involvement in this case that suddenly no gadol wanted to sign a letter stating that the heter was no good and that the couple were committing adultery. RIght!? The embarrassing fact that contradicts your slander was that I was protesting this heter long before the gedolim wrotes these letters.
Similarly in the Tropper case and the Dodelson Weiss case? My involvement resulted in no one taking the side that I supported seriously!?
Please get a hold on reality and learn to say the truth.
My comments between yours:
ReplyDeleteDT: Yes I am writing about Tropper and Rav Shmuel in the same post. Please explain how they are light years apart? What psak regarding Tropper are you referring to?
R: Is your question for real? Tropper was a consistent Ba’al Aveirah whereas Rav Shmuel is being contested (again, I’m not saying he’s right) over one specific psak. Can you really compare one and the other?
DT: Rav Sternbuch has written about the need to protest against this Heter. No he has not told me personally to use this Rambam against Rav Shmuel.
R: So you are just listening to yourself on this matter and not to Da’as Torah.
DT: Are you questioning the legitimacy of doing what the Rambam clearly says to do - or are you saying that pragmatically that it will not work?
R: Nope, I’m questioning your mandate to apply this Rambam.
DT: What do you mean by slandering Rav Shmuel? Are you saying he was not responsible and is not responsible for adultery? Or are you saying that even though he is responsible for adultery - but no one should whisper those words?
R: You can disagree with the heter and find every possible flaw in it but doesn’t give you the right to equate Rav Shmuel to Tropper or even worse, to Esav.
DT: What is comes down to is that Rav Shmuel can do anything and you are saying it can not be said that HE did anything. All that can be said is , Isn't it ashame that adultery is being committed?
R: Have never said that. No one is free to do anything… Rav Shmuel can’t and YOU can’t. There are limits and halochos to go by… two wrongs don’t make a right. If he’s wrong, and that may very well be the case, are YOU right in focusing on him rather than the issue itself? Again, who gave you the mandate to judge this matter?
DT: Please tell me the logic of not stating He did something wrong but that Something was done wrong? The Rambam's psak clearly disagrees with you on that.
R: No problem at all in saying the psak is wrong… but to say that just like he doesn’t care about hilchos ishus Esav didn’t care about them either is an insult to anyone reading this blog.
DT: How can someone do something wrong and yet his reputation remains umblemished?! This is the ultimate teflon man. This simply double-think or double-speak.
R: So, let’s just erase the words of Shlomo HaMelech about the fact that even Tzadikim depart from this word bearing sins…
Is this a mistake… it looks like it. Is Rav Shmuel all of a sudden a rashah like Esav because of it? Hardly.
DT: According to your logic also - I should not criticize Tamar Epstein for committing adultery - but can only say adultery is being committed? Or only gedolim have inherently perfect reputations that are incapable of being stained or discredited?
R: Good point, I don’t think you can say she’s committing adultery… you should indeed say that adultery is being committed… doesn’t the Torah and the Gemorah teach us time and again to use lashon neki’ah? Now, if a Godol says it, it’s definitely something else, unless you are a Godol and I’m unaware of it.
DT: Please tell me the source for never talking about the individual responsibility of a gadol for wrong - but only about the misdeed that has been done? Even Moshe Rabbeinu was described as sinning. Is Rav Shmuel greater than Moshe Rabbeinu?
R: …and then Myriam was punished with tzar’as… are you greater than Myriam?
Can you attest with 100% certainty that you are complying with every single halochah mentioned by the Chofetz Chayim regarding saying something leto’eles with NO personal opinion added whatsoever???
That’s why I’m telling you to speak about the issue and not the person… you’ve written thousands of posts, I’m sure that by now you should be able to write things in the manner they should be written…
If you think this is a rewrite of history just ask Beth Alexander if she would like you to continue helping her. I know damn well what I'm talking... that's the only way you operate... you are HURTING halachah with your behaviour. The only thing you've ever written that makes sense is the warning on your blog which I take as a warning against the things YOU write:
ReplyDelete1) LASHON HARAH ALERT
Assertions made by any poster - should not be assumed to be true until checked with authoritative rabbis. They are allowed only for the concerns that they raise - so that people can be alerted to investigate so as to avoid harm.
Acceptance of a post is not assurance that it is accurate or in proper context. Even notices said in the name of major rabbis need to be checked out to see that they were actually authorized by those rabbis.
Beth's understanding disagrees with yours. Pounding the table and saying "I know damn well ..." doesn't make it true
ReplyDeleteYour comment can basically be summarized that you question my judgment. I disagree with you -- It is that simple
ReplyDeleteWhy are you hijacking the issue and spreading Loshon Horah? Attacking Reb Daniel with things that have nothing to do with this?
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't need me as his lawyer but you're waaayyy off P. Goldschmidt.
Though they reportedly announced it was just for a minute or a day, the
ReplyDeleteminimum length of time for Nezires is 30 days, thus putting them in a
sticky situation because their declaration came just before their Bar
Mitzvah.
This doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If the neder is not binding on them, it makes no difference that it's a few days before the bar mitzvah. And if it is binding on them, it's not for thirty days, but until Moshiach comes, b/c without korbanos, there's no way to end the nezirus.
Ravinah - please note that Goldschmidt is a troll.
ReplyDeleteHis main concern is attack and not discussion.
As a matter of fact the defense of Rav Shmuel has been largely similar to his. Attack me because of insulting a gadol. There is no concern with facts, issues or tactics or the truth.
I don't question your judgement. I only question your method and mandate to implement your method. The issue itself deserves full attention.
ReplyDeleteI this case I don't pound on the table, I OWN THE TABLE!!!
ReplyDeleteHad no idea what a troll was but having looked it up he does fit the criteria...
ReplyDeleteOne has nothing to do with the other? Not only do they go hand in hand with each other, but the heter is the cause and the reputation is the effect!
ReplyDeleteThis has actually been going on for almost a year! (remarriage was on aseres yemai teshuvah, on top of it!) And the heter itself with the ORA announcement that she was freed, was when? Like 2 years before that?
ReplyDeleteRavinah, it would help to learn the difference between the din of tochacha and the din of macha'ah. Tochacha forbids offending the person, whereas macha'ah not only encourages it, but mandates it! When there's a fire, you try to evacuate, if they seem to dumb to understand, then you scream FIRE! , (all the more so when others are shy to do so..)
ReplyDeleteWake up and smell the fire....
Wonderful - Is your name Michael?
ReplyDeleteYou are right... you scream FIRE... you don't scream IDIOT at the person who didn't listen to your instructions.
ReplyDeleteFIRE being the issue and IDIOT being the person... Scream as much as you want about the issue but as soon as you make it about the person you take importance away from the issue. Take a look at Mesilas Yeshorim, Perek 20, Mishkall HaChasidus, based on the Gemorah in Yevamos 63b.
you are ignoring the language of the Rambam - who clearly disagrees with your understanding
ReplyDeleteI don't ignore it at all but I hold that one cannot take matters into one's own hands and have a go at INDIVIDUALS, without a clear directive to do so from Gdolei Yisroel. I support your efforts to clarify the issue but disagree with your targetting of Rav Shmuel as a person.
ReplyDeleteOut of curiosity - how would you translate the word "chaveiro" in the Rambam? Who's beGeder chaveiro? Anyone? a personal friend? an "Ish Chaver" as defined by the Gemorah?
So, a couple of things for us all to ponder about...
Talking about names:
ReplyDeleteORIGIN OF THE LAST NAME EIDENSOHN: Last name or Germanic/Ashkenazi origin denoting an incestuous relation between mother in law and son in law. Eiden (in Yiddish) means son in law; Sohn (in German) means son. Therefore, Eidensohn is the illegitimate child of a mother in law and her son in law.
This has not been a isolated incident and in fact the corruption in the case is clear from the many letters I have published on this blog.. There is no requirement in the Rambam and other places that require that I can a clear directive from Gedolei Yisroel.
ReplyDeleteThe issue at this point is clear on the level of halacha - there is no machlokes haposkim.
Bottom line you disagree or don't think what I am doing is a good idea as a strategy. I think it is.
I think the second half of your last paragraph, above, encapsulates my opinion quite well, as previously expressed. So we agree that we don't agree on this approach.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Rambam in question, I do think it requires a directive from Gdolei Yisroel to publicly name and shame someone otherwise one is just gambling with one's own Olam Haboh on his say so... dangerous stuff and I'd personally be very afraid of it.
why is a directive from gedolei Yisroel a guarantee of doing the right thing? We see that Tamar Epstein is listening to Rav Shmuel and I can guarantee you that she is not getting Olam HaBoh for doing so.
ReplyDeleteReb Daniel, why have you deleted some of my posts on this topic?
ReplyDeleteI refer you to the very first Mishnah in Horayos as an answer to your question.
Apparently a campaign to re-legitimize RSK in under way and some people think that it is a great Mitzvah to take part in it.
ReplyDeleteCan anyone actually confirm that this story happened?
The question is why you were sharing an IP address with Super Kollel. I deleted the posts connected with his IP and some of your posts got deleted. What is your connection to Super Kollel?
ReplyDeleteWho or what is Super Kollel? I use a program called HMA that randomly changes my ip every 3 minutes, so I have no way of knowing which ip you're possibly talking about...
ReplyDeletesuper kollel made a series of comments today about Pogrow - You had the identical IP has he did for some of your posts. When I removed his comments from the blog it removed those posts.
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, thanks for clarifying...
ReplyDeletePogrow's story is horrible.
I hope this ip thing is not a virus in my computer.
The issue with נזירות nowadays is the inability to bring the קרבן afterwards.
ReplyDeleteLet me help you think. After he already was well aware that he erred, he went asking R' Dovid as if he didn't know and asking a shayla kivyachol letumosoi, but still and all he kept on doing what he was doing. Rashi: Kol arboim shono hoyo tzod noshim mitachas yad ba'aleihem...
ReplyDeleteregarding esav and adultery, see tosfot baba batra end of haShutfimn (i think it was "ba al naArah haMerusah") top od amud page.
ReplyDelete