Wednesday, June 1, 2016

Better later than never: Novominsker Rebbe says ok to report abuse to police



update:

Honesty wrote:
Is this the video you intended to post? Where does he speak about going to the police? Wasn't raglayim l'dovor always his position?

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There is a problem with certain bloggers and "activists" who are more interested in using the abused as a way to fill their emotional needs of bravado. Just think about the crazy mashgiach story where those who came to the police were guaranteed anonymity, but were publicized by "activists" and bloggers.

I responded:

Your objection is solid. It seems clear that the purpose of this speech was to attack bloggers and child abuse is just an excuse for that attack(i.e. defense of Daas Torah and gedolim). 
The person who sent this video to me felt that this was a major change. It can be interpreted that way since he is saying that if there are raglayim ldavar it is permitted to go to the police - and he doesn't say that a rabbi has to decide that fact. However it can also be readily understood as just repeating previous views. 
So the issue comes down to whether a rabbi needs to decide. The position of the Aguda has always been that a rabbi needs to decide. Here he doesn't say rabbi but just say that if there are raglayim ldavar you can go to the police. 
However since his purpose was to primarily to smash bloggers it can also be understood that he is just stating there is a possibility of going to the police - contrary to the lies of the bloggers. But that he still holds that without a psak from a rabbi one can not go to the police. 
His comments are at best disingenuous or he is simply ignorant of facts that he should know about. The senior gadol in America has stated that one does not sacrifice the viability of a yeshiva to  report a molester to the police. Rabbi Belsky's letter in the Kolko case speaks for itself. I personally was told by a rabbi in Baltimore that the best way to deal with molesters is to send them to another community - not to report them. In the Webeman case - there was no condemnation of Weberman by the Aguda.  
In fact what case has the Aguda said to report a molester to the police? Anybody remember the Colmer case? Daas Torah Blog  and Survivors for Justice
There is more to speak on the subject but the Noveminsker's speech is more concerned with defending Daas Torah against the claim of incompetence or evil than it is about protecting children. 
There is in fact a problem of the activity of the activists - but that does not justify the gross rewriting of history and double think expressed in the above video.

p.s. When I asked the head of Torah u'Mesorah about including their protocols for dealing with sexual abuse in my book on abuse - he responded that that was problematic and that I should speak with the organization's lawyer. When I asked what was the problem since it clearly showed that Torah u'Mesora was concerned about properly dealing with the issue. He responded if it is published it will give people the idea that we have an abuse problem. I published it anyway since I had received a copy from someone working at Torah u'Mesorah. 

So while it is true that the chareidi rabbis have spent a lot of time talking about the issue - they have done very little to prevent it or to deal properly with abuse when it has happened. 

16 comments :

  1. Is this the video you intended to post? Where does he speak about going to the police? Wasn't raglayim l'dovor always his position?
    ------
    There is a problem with certain bloggers and "activists" who are more interested in using the abused as a way to fill their emotional needs of bravado. Just think about the crazy mashgiach story where those who came to the police were guaranteed anonymity, but were publicized by "activists" and bloggers.

    ReplyDelete
  2. your objection is a solid. It seems clear that the purpose of this speech was to attack bloggers and child abuse is just an excuse for that attack(i.e. defense of Daas Torah and gedolim).

    The person who sent this video to me felt that this was a major change. It can be interpreted that way since he is saying that if there are raglayim ldavar it is permitted to go to the police - and he doesn't say that a rabbi has to decide that fact. However it can also be readily understood as just repeating previous views.

    So the issue comes down to whether a rabbi needs to decide. The position of the Aguda has always been that a rabbi needs to decide. Here he doesn't say rabbi but just say that if there are raglayim ldavar you can go to the police.

    However since his purpose was to primarily to smash bloggers it can also be understood that he is just stating there is a possibility of going to the police - contrary to the lies of the bloggers. But that he still holds that without a psak from a rabbi one can not go to the police.

    His comments are at best disingenuous or he is simply ignorant of facts that he should know about. The senior gadol in America has stated that one does not sacrifice the viablity of a yeshiva to report a molestor to the police. Rabbi Belsky's letter in the Kolko case speaks for itself. I personally was told by a rabbi in Baltimore that the best way to deal with molestors is to send them to another community - not to report them. In the Webemanr case - there was not condemnation of Weber by the Aguda.

    In fact what case has the Aguda said to report a molestor to the police?

    There is more to speak on the subject but the Noveminsker's speech is more concerned with defending Daas Torah against the claim of incompetence or evil than it is about protecting children.

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  3. Is it not ironic that these same Agudah thugs who condemn going to the police and child services continue to cover up their own archivist Moshe Kolodny and his daughter who were involved in false molestation allegations with no permission obtained by any Rabbi to make these false allegations. Despicable!

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  4. A self serving speech if I ever heard one.

    He says that they spent many hours deliberating. Deliberating what? Mostly how to put the onus on the parents and children. They also discussed about when you may go to the authorities and when you may not but he won't go into the details to tell us when. Obviously he can't tell details because you can't give this tool to the people.

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  5. Is one who abets evil also evil himself?

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  6. The Agudah blaming bloggers is like Enron blaming the press for its problems.

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  7. Look at the Rambam hilchos teshuva 4.1.

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  8. He speaks of it as a new phenomenon, yet admits it happened in the past, as evidenced by the need to protect mosdos from liability for incidents that occurred "who knows how long ago."

    Perhaps he could account for why those issues were not addressed in the past, but are being addressed in the present.

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  9. Lav achbara ganvei, ela churei ganvei. Have they spoken up about the latest FIASCO? Did anyone tell the culprits to depart? Did they admit that nebech the cheder boy was raped before he was nebech R'L' chas milhazkir? Do they have a clue why the Butcher murderer stored away his trophy in a freezer so as to ............. R'L' chas milhazkir. You just saw the video of the fatherly love FIASCO, but kekele kohol says, even when if you spit into their eyes, that it's only raining. Our children keep on dying, and all they give is lip service and double talk. Raglayim...ba'al DOVOR... it is your own raglayim memaher lorutz leRA'A. You big guys, WHY ARE OUR CHILDREN EXPENDABLE? RAGLAYIM ny foot!

    Let's call it straight, yedeichem mleim dam, kulam menoafim rodfei shalmoinim. Beis ha -*VA'AD*-, read my lips the VA'AD, yihye liznus. Not the i'Phones are the problem, it is you, you and you and the Gilui Arayois, and Mishkav Z, soteh min mezanev achrecho, the minors in the T'T's, with the people at the top, with people at the bottom and from everywhere in between. From USA, Aussie, to London, the Shmendrovits's and the Shmendrovits's ENABLERS that are their Watchers, shipping them away hush hush overnight to Israel receiving MP protexia, - That is the Problem. WHO is watching the Watchers, huh? As long as the machers keep on maching, and the Gedoilim are not protecting the Ketanim, and the fixers keep on fixing, selling out our tashbar for votes, and the mata'amim and the mada'anim keep on flowing, straight into their pockets, no one will blow the whistle. Our children will be swept under the rug, with an alleged falshe krechtz, but dying away just the same.

    Wake up Yidden! Time to call a spade a spade, tagidu BeGass, tevassru bechutsos Ashkelon, gather up the masses in CitiFields and scream GEVALD Mazanev achrecho, and let the truth be known! Mashchisim olecho Yisroel!! The blood of our children are not HEFKER!
    Do you think for one moment we buy your ....?

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  10. Called "Mesayea lidei ovrei avirah" keovrei Aveira.

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  11. Can someone tell me: when did NR make these remarks?

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  12. Is breaking the abusers leggs halachigly permitted?

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  13. FWIW, never. There was a point and time when an org gathered signatures from 100 + - so called rabonim that molestation is to be reported to the police with the stipulation of Raglayim leDovor. That again can only be established through a Posek. When they asked the head of the org, whether such criteria ever happened, the answer was NO. When asked what is the criteria of raglayim ledovor, he had no clue and neither do the rabbis.
    The truth behind this is, not even money e.g. the issue afraid of being sued. It is a principle, period. As one menahel put it, if you pass the Markey Bill, you can close all the Yeshivas, that's how infested the Institutions are from top down and bottom up. They choose their profession where their prey is readily available. Again, not all of them are that!

    Raglayim ledovor is only a Buffer to thwart off potential and real victims. And if anyone dare complain and place charges, they are dead set to destroy the reputation of the victim, his family, his parnassa, character and anything they can do to harm anyone and everyone they only can. First, they do a turn around accusiing the father of doing the same and finish off with chasing everyone out of town. A wide known example happened in Lakewood, and the rest is History. These alleged rabonim have a network of Bnei Avlo ubnei Bliyaal, machers, harassers, expert terrorists doing all kinds of ma'assei Ta'atuim, they have an army of messengers 24/7 mezanev achrecho sharya without giving an inch ad sheyetze dam hatamtzis. Many of these raglayim observers are themselves guilty in doing the same, so they are also covering their own behinds. This is the true sad state of affairs, Hashem Yerachem. Just like the mendele ba'al haProd vesiyato have been stung and put out of commission for good, this network et al, have to be stung in all the right places, so they will know.
    Mi shepora ledor haMabul uledor haflaga, hi yipora lechol hamezanev achrecho, veachrei bonche, uvnossecho - vehanilvim eleihem, Amen.

    You should be aware, just like there were people fed up with all the rishus done to ba'alei bnei Yisrael and had the feds spread a net, the same has been commenced in saving our children. One example happened just recently. no more hefkeirus just because you can. No, you cannot! Not anymore.

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  14. Just as much as abuse is permitted.

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  15. Do you always take everything so seriously?

    I was being facetious. Chill.

    Although, breaking their leggs may have a desired affect, I am not suggesting it.

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  16. What kind of Raglayim did they have when chasing the gutter yid and family out of Fakewood. Why these so called poskim pasken only for real molestors to bring in the raglayim. Torah achas yihye lochem? No?
    On second thought, these matir assurim rabiners only pasken when it fits their agenda as in tzadik kaTamar. veDa"l

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