Guest post by Yehuda
“It’s common when someone loses in Beys Din that he tells his friend his innocence and says, “You can see that I’m correct and Beys Din got it backward. If my case would have been in front of So-and-So who’s know as a wise man, he certainly would have seen who’s correct and wouldn’t have reached such a terrible backwards verdict!” He then continues cursing the Beys Din because of this in ways that aren’t fit to print.”
Frustration with Beys Din is not a new phenomenon, as the above quotation from the Chofetz Chaim (L”H 6’ 8’) indicates. No one likes to lose, and it’s a lot easier to blame the Beys Din than to admit to being wrong. Yet there are legitimate complaints about the modern Beys Din system in the United States, and recognition of the problem is always a prerequisite for finding solutions. Therefore it is a pleasure to see the issue discussed in Dialogue in what is promised to be the first of several articles. R’ Marburger is the director of the Business Halacha Institute and therefore focuses on Choshen Mishpat, but most of his discussion applies to Beys Din in general.
The article begins with a very important disclaimer: The fact that Beys Din has issues does not mean secular court becomes automatically permissible. We have had an illustrious visitor to this blog argue that Tamar Epstein was justified in going to secular court because Beys Din has problems. It was noted at the time that no Rabbonim permit such an indiscriminate amendment to the Shulchan Aruch, but the misconception is unfortunately widespread.
Before we get to the legitimate complaints, it is important to define several terms. A Beys Din Kavua is a Beys Din established with the consent of the community. A Zabla Beys Din is a process in which each litigant chooses one Dayan and then the two Dayanim choose a third Dayan. A Zabla Beys Din is more problematic than a Beys Din Kavua in all of the issues at hand.
R’ Marburger primarily discusses four issues: The cost of a Din Torah, the inability to appeal the Psak, private communication between the Dayanim and litigants, and the lack of a written explanation of the Psak. All four are against the Shulchan Aruch. Yet all four are common practice and therefore justified by the Acharonim on various grounds. However, the real question is not how is it permissible, but why are we looking for loopholes? Regarding cost, the answer is simple: Dayanim don’t get paid by the community or the government, so if they wouldn’t charge the litigants they would starve. R’ Marburger notes that Zablas cost more than a Beys Din Kavua and tend to take longer (the beauty of charging by the hour). The lack of appeal is also justified by the legal requirement that arbitration agreements be final. However, the other two problems are a lot harder to justify. R’ Marburger does not present a reason per se why a Beys Din would want to communicate privately with a litigant (other than the obvious, which we’d rather not think about), rather he presents a Halachik justification for Zablas to engage in this behavior. This leads to two important ramification: A Beys Din Kavua has no such Heter, and even a Zabla can be forced to abide by the original Halacha if a litigant insists beforehand. Finally, the most difficult issue to explain is why Beys Din often does not provide a written explanation of its psak. R’ Marburger provides three possible reasons: Cost, potential embarrassment to the losing party, and the possibility that someone will make fun of the psak. This third concern seems to be based loosely on the Gemora Avodah Zarah 35a or Igros Moshe Y’D 4’ 38’ 7’, which is primarily a concern that someone will not follow the psak, not that he’ll make fun of it. Whatever the reason for the custom, in today’s climate when people already have questions with the system, it seems counterproductive to ask for blind trust from litigants.
The article is certainly thought provoking, but something very curious appears after the article: an addendum from R’ Shlomo Miller that in some ways is more significant than the entire article. It represents the first time that a mainstream publication has published a rebuke of the actions of R’ Herschel Schachter and R’ Shmuel Kamenetzky against Aharon Friedman. No, R’ Miller does not say any names. But he states that no one other than a Beys Din Kavua can issue a Hazmana; in other words, Rabbis Schachter and Kamenetzky and certainly Martin Wolmark cannot issue a Hazmana to anyone, and if you can’t issue a Hazmana then you obviously can’t issue a Seruv for failure to respond. Ben Bno shel Kal V’Chomer that you can’t order that someone be beaten, as R’ Schachter stated publically about Aharon Friedman. R’ Miller also says that you can only force the opposing litigant to use Zabla when the Dayanim are distinguished people, but otherwise they do not have the status of what the Shulchan Aruch calls Zabla. This is a remarkable statement that allows more people who are leery of Zabla to avoid it.
So what are the Gedolim going to do to fix the problems? Ask not what the Gedolim can do for you; rather ask what you can do for the Gedolim(and klal yisrael)! According to R’ Marburger, the fix will have to come from the bottom-up. He states “Change will require… widespread grassroots insistence by the end-users of the system”. Sounds like a job for a blog!
Note: As per R’ Aharon Feldman, anyone who has something to add to the discussion is encouraged to write a Letter to the Editor of Dialogue.
If a bet din issues an explanatory written psak, it opensitself to an 'appeal' to a civil court. As well as further proceedings in that (or other) bet din that the explanation is wrong. (Which perhaps it should.)
ReplyDeleteRabbi wolmark (and epstein, not mentioned) did not claim to have issued any hazmanot, or convene a bet din. The BDA did everything for them, having issued a seruv against a non existent person.
ReplyDelete"A Zabla Beys Din is more problematic than a Beys Din Kavua in all of the issues at hand."
ReplyDeleteNevertheless, the vast majority of places do not have a Beis Din Kavua. And Rav Moshe paskens that either of the two parties to the case has the halachic right to insist the case be heard in a Zabla Beis Din.
"R’ Marburger primarily discusses four issues: The cost of a Din Torah, the inability to appeal the Psak, private communication between the Dayanim and litigants, and the lack of a written explanation of the Psak. All four are against the Shulchan Aruch."
ReplyDelete1. Where does Shulchan Aruch give the right to appeal a psak after it was issued?
2. Where does Shulchan Aruch say the Beis Din's psak must have a written explanation?
3. As far as Beis Din charging both litigants a fee for hearing their case, while it is correct that halacha says beis din shouldn't charge fees, there are legitimate halachic exceptions that do permit beis dins to charge the litigants for the time the dayanim spend hearing the case.
The BDA seruv, even though it was obviously halachicly invalidly issued as there is no way to summon a non-existent person, nevertheless was only a seruv for failure to respond/appear in beis din. The seruv demanded to be rectified by simply responding/showing up to beis din.
ReplyDeleteFor that reason, the BDA seruv could never halachicly have been used to order the husband to give a Get (or coerce a Get) since there never was a seruv issued for failing to give a Get following a beis din trial (which requires both husband and wife to be present in the beis din courtroom for the trial to determine whether a Get is required of the husband in the first place.)
As an aside, the BDA is not a Beis Din Kavua.
2. Where does Shulchan Aruch say the Beis Din's must give a written explanation of its psak?
ReplyDeleteIt is specific in Shulchan Aruch that a litigant may ask for a written explanation of "heichan dantani". The Beis Din must then give a written explanation. (I'll look for the exact place later, if no one provides it.)
Unbeknownst to most people, they wave it when they sign a shtar berurin. In fact, the shtar usually specifically states that the "beis din" is not required to pasken according to halacha.
1. Where does Shulchan Aruch give the right to appeal a psak after it was issued?
What is the halacha if it becomes clear the dayanim erred? What happens if it becomes very clear that the dayonim violated several clear halchos in their handling of the din "torah?" Is there any way to cry foul, or must a litigant bear it at all costs? There is no need for appeals when a din Torah is conducted properly, by true yorei Shomayim and talmidei chachomim. There is plenty of reason to have a potential process when dayonim unfortunately need to be kept in check.
I think that the fourth issue is the key. The root of the problem is that there is no system of checks and balances in place. This allows all sorts of problems from ignorance to deliberate corruption. It also allow there to be no real recourse for a villainous baal din. The following problems are some that I have encountered which would be remedied by this. (They aren't listed in the order of importance.)
ReplyDelete1. The dayanim aren't always very learned and often lack some street smarts too. They often rely on taanos and sources that they hear from the toanim and don't always properly research it on their own after hearing it.
2. The dayanim sometimes have a bias towards one tzad. This might be a family or business connection or just a feeling of respect or mercy or anything else.
3. They sometimes are too quick to pasken without the proper due diligence in knowing the whole story or the halacha.
4. Since the rule is המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה, and a raaya needs to be solid proof, the plaintiff often loses al pi halacha. That is fine because it is the halacha, but there should at least be some recourse for the nitva that it shouldn't be so easy to be a villain and get away with it. Sometimes he has acted in the most immoral way and has violated the other party in the worst way but he can get away with it and walk out saying that he was falsely accused. There being a public record of everything would remedy this to a large extent.
5. Sometimes there are facts which seemingly can't be applied in halacha and are therefore not highlighted in the hearings and these facts are often very pertinent to shed light on what is really going on. These too would be made public.
6. Sometimes there are third parties involved and their involvement needs to be highlighted too.
So I think that a written psak is completely necessary.
1. It needs to include all of the facts of the case and all of the evidence, because otherwise it is not sufficient. The psak is based on the facts so a written clarification must naturally include everything.
2. It needs to be a public document. This could open up lashon hora issues and I don't know the answer to that problem but I think that cover ups are worse because they make room for the worst forms of corruption.
Since the widely accepted practice is hatovea holech achar hanitva, (which I think is used beyond it's intended scope,) any villainous defendant can choose the most corrupt bais din where he feels his chances are best to spin things his way. This also needs to be addressed, although I think that it would also be remedied to a large extent by implementing written psakim. This would help to prevent and/or expose corrupt bais din activity.
ReplyDelete"I have seen the phrase, "must consult a reputable Beis Din", which would imply that there are some Botei Din that are not reputable."
ReplyDeleteMore worrying still, it suggests that some Botei Din ARE reputable.
As the OP wrote, the litigants can refuse to sign the shtar berurin "as is", and write in that they insist the beis din follow the pashut halacha. Such as, either litigant has the right to demand the beis din not use peshara/compromise, and instead rule in strict adherence to pure halacha.
ReplyDeleteAs far as appeals, doesn't the Shulchan Aruch say that only the original dayanim can reopen a beis din case that has already been decided?
What's the difficulty with hatovea holech achar hanitva?
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately even when a Bais Din does everything correctly you can have people who will undermine it. Please see the documents I present at https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByDyf3w55PRPbk1DaGVLaGVWNzQ/view?usp=sharing and one I have annotated in color.
ReplyDeleteI'm curious how butei dinim today react if one of the litigants says he cannot afford to pay the beis din fees to hear the case. Or if he simply doesn't pay it. Especially if he's the defendant in the case, thus with nothing to lose if the beis din trial never happens since it is the other party demanding something from him.
ReplyDeleteAnother city.
ReplyDelete"R’ Marburger does not present a reason per se why a Beys Din would want to communicate privately with a litigant (other than the obvious, which we’d rather not think about)"
ReplyDeleteIt is more than obvious why most zabla batei dinim MUST (not just "want to") engage in ex parte communications. If the Bet Din is not part of a formally established Beit Din with a support staff then the dayanim need to speak to the litigants directly even if it is just for administrative matters such as scheduling. More established batei dinim, such as the BDA, with full support staff do have a policy of not engaging in ex parte communications.
It is intended that the nitva doesn't have to travel to the city of the tovea. But in a single city there might be no upper hand for the nitva, and kol shekain that the nitva can't force to take the case further away when a nearer bais din is available.
ReplyDeleteAnother city's beis din does not have jurisdiction over people outside their city.
ReplyDeletethe yekke KAJ community has one, but only for yekke's. (I think if both parties agrre, they will do a din torah. but that's a small community.)
ReplyDeletemost chassidim have one for themselves only.
your first two paragraphs are, of course, correct.
ReplyDeletethe BDA considers itself, and only itself, a bet din kavua. even if the parties are not MO, even if a party is not from the US or Canada (argentina, in the false seruv case.) NO other bet din is acceptable to them, unless its a bet din they know in advance will rule like them.
further, they do not even do the "momonot" aspects of a get case. (nor do they do momonot cases altogether. only get cases initiated by a man.
Such as, either litigant has the right to demand the beis din not use peshara/compromise, and instead rule in strict adherence to pure halacha.
ReplyDeleteWhat happens if the litigant finds out the hard way that the dayonim went against the halacha, either due to incompetence, or worse?
How many botei din are you aware of where all the dayonim are true yorei Shomayim as well true Talmidei Chachomim?
As far as appeals, doesn't the Shulchan Aruch say that only the original dayanim can reopen a beis din case that has already been decided - and specifically preclude another set of dayanim from ruling against a first set of dayanim on the same case?
What about in a case where the litigant can prove that the daynim took bribes? What about in a case where the litigant can prove that the dayonim violated the halacha of a Din Torah several times? Are the corrupt dayonim supposed to rule upon themselves?
There is a huge problem. Doing nothing to create accountability is not the right answer.
When I initiated a Din Torah against the Mikvah Emunah Society of Greater Washington with the Baltimore Bais Din the MES President told them he wanted it in his city so they deferred it the Vaad of Washington. What happened next was amusing. Several of the Washington Vaad rabbis could not serve on the Bais Din because they had vested interests in the Din Torah. Then Rabbi Kalman Winter's father-in-law, Rabbi Amos Bunim, zt'l, married the widow of the man who gave me the donation to be used for the mikvah. He then recused himself so the Din Torah went back to Baltimore. The BBD gave a psak the MES had to show progress to build a new mikvah. It took 15 years to end that Din Torah till the MES finally built their new Mikvah.
ReplyDeleteSince RHS got immunity from the Court in exchange to testify about the corruption he was involved with, he seems to be safe of charges. However, he has no immunity from Torah and Halacha, can we the People Klall Yisrael bring charges against him and have him sing the tunes and apply the chomer haDin?
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/baltimore-beis-din-tamar-epstein-is.html The BBD is a beis din kavua. I can certainly bring someone to a beis din outside my city if my city has no beis din. A town without a beis din is not doomed to hefkeirus.
ReplyDeleteYet our parameters for change must conform with the specifications of the Shulchan Aruch...
ReplyDelete“The article is certainly thought provoking, but something very curious appears after the article: an addendum from R’ Shlomo Miller that in some ways is more significant than the entire article. It represents the first time that a mainstream publication has published a rebuke of the actions of R’ Herschel Schachter and R’ Shmuel Kamenetzky against Aharon Friedman.”
ReplyDeleteHow is it possible that R’ Herschel Schachter would support Rabbi Mendel Epstein so publicly and over so many years ?? One answer is that Mendel Epstein took in and fooled many rabbis and fine people. Judge Freda (yes, Freda not Sarah) Wolfson makes it clear that Mendel Epstein is the criminal mastermind over many years and his behavior was heinous, meaning hateful, odious, outrageous. This is over, right? No one, today, publicly supports Mendel Epstein et al??
Moe asks: “Which posek paskened she could hire Mr. Mendel Epstein's hitmen against her husband?” See, any of the many rabbis that Mendel Epstein fooled could be the posek to Tamar, to her mother and to her lawer to pay $60,000 to attack with a baseball bat Tamar’s husband.
No one ever gets immunity for prosecution for perjury. Someone has to go to the court house and pay to get the transcripts of the testimony of the witnesses granted immunity. Pacer does not release transcripts. I trust that the USA court reviewing the court records of Mendel Epstein et al will make important observations and rulings.
ReplyDeletePacer: filed 3/6/15
ReplyDelete“IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that no testimony or other information compelled under the Order or any information directly or indirectly derived from such testimony or other information may be used against Aryeh Ralbag in any criminal case, except a prosecution for perjury, giving a false statement, failing to comply with this Order. HON FREDA L. WOLFSON UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
How does a prosecution for perjury work? Example, Judge Wolfson gave Tamar’s lawyer immunity. He testified that he personally transferred the $60,000 to Mendel Epstein. He testified that he thought Mendel Epstein would just holler at Tamar’s husband. He testified that he thought the $60,000 would go to Aaron to persuade Aaron to divorce his wife.
Of course. But if the defendant's town lacks a beis din kavua then the plaintiff needs to negotiate with the defendant to find a mutually agreeable beis din.
ReplyDeleteA Jerusalem B”D is in the process of railroading me. To make a very long complex story short, the head dayan called me on Motzai Shabbos (4/16/16) about one important issue and, in passing, informed me for the very first time that another crucial issue had already been decided orally by the B”D during a 3/3/16 hearing and that both sides had been duly informed during that hearing! Did I miss it at the time? So I listened to my recording of that hearing. Such a decision had never occurred!
ReplyDeleteThat means that from 3/3-4/16, for over 6 weeks, I had been spending thousands of shekel and intense effort to fulfill a 2/14/16 written psak din that had been apparently negated by a 3/3 oral decision!
I believe I am being railroaded because of the head dayan’s gross administrative incompetence and unreliable memory.
As frum Jews, we are caught between a rock and a hard place. We can’t ever l’chatchila pursue a case in a secular court. If batei din conducted proceedings according to din Torah, that would solve many problems. In fact, no B”D will conduct any case, unless both sides agree to waive in advance and in writing many halachos that the Shulchan Aruch requires a B”D to follow. A Jew who refuses to waive his rights has nowhere to turn to seek justice!
1. zshine this is really disgraceful.
ReplyDelete2. Where can this article be accessed? I googled it but did not find it
3. Taking money even from both litigants is not just against halocho if it exceeds the schar betailo of the dayonim but leads to corrupt outcomes. I personally witnessed a bais din in Brooklyn, led by Solomon Herbst being told that the only reason a Get would be given is because of threats by the NY Supreme Court. He made the husband mumble the words that the Get was being given voulntarily when everyone knew this was a lie. When Herbst was challenged subsequently to go to Rav Nissim Karelitz to decide on the "authenticity of the Get" he refused and warned the husband never to contact him ever again.
Herbst parnossah is based on writing these Gittei meuseh. Otherwise he would have no business if he stops writing these gittei meuseh.
Herbst had previously said that Rav Gestetner's bais din cannot be used because it is not "an international bais din" whatever that may mean.
4. zshine and someone else have also hit the nail on the head regarding peshoro. Especially in divorce cases where al pi halocho it is clear a woman is not entitled to alimony or equitable distribution, botei din routinely award this on the basis of peshoro even though there is no basis for this in halocho.
A man's rights are totally overlooked. Peshoro is meant to be used in very complex cases where there may be doubts as to what the halocho is. It is abused by being used in clear cut cases simply to practice socialism and feminism.
5. And to continue the corruption, the dayonim then claim they can charge as much as they like simply because their circus is no longer a bais din but a bais peshoro.
6. Bottom line: Chareidim lidvar Hashem up to the check book. Disgraceful how the oylom Hatorah behaves when it comes to money.
I see r winter was an honest rav. He disqualified himself. Unlike most other rabbonim, who wouldn't disqualify themselves, no matter what.
ReplyDeleteBoth sides agreed to abide by BBD, so being 'kavuah' or not is irrelevant to the issue. Luckily , the BBD still claims jurisdiction, unlike most other batei din that just run away.
ReplyDeleteIf batei din conducted proceedings according to din Torah, that would solve many problems. In fact, no B”D will conduct any case, unless both sides agree to waive in advance and in writing many halachos that the Shulchan Aruch requires a B”D to follow. A Jew who refuses to waive his rights has nowhere to turn to seek justice!
ReplyDeleteBut either party has the absolute halachic right to tell beis din before it even begins hearing the case that he only agrees to their adjudicating the case on the condition that they completely follow Shulchan Aruch and pure halacha exclusively and not use any peshara/compromise in issuing a verdict. He can even write that condition of his into the shtar berurin before he signs it.
If the beis din didn't agree to that then either litigant has the halachic right to decline using that beis din. If the defendent is the one who demands exclusive use of din and not peshara, then the plaintiff will be forced to find a beis din that agrees to din only. Otherwise the plaintiff won't be able to get a case against the defendent.
Yet our parameters for change must conform with the specifications of the Shulchan Aruch...
ReplyDeleteSo long that the dayanim conform to the Shulchan Oruch's definition of a dayan.
So did Rabbi Klavan even though he was Rabbi Emeritus of one the shuls that would have benefited. It should be noted in the Friedman/Epstein divorce case both of these Rabbis signed the letter stating that only the Bais Din of Baltimore had jurisdiction. If the Mikvah Society president was able to accept that in our case, then Tamar Epstein should have done so in her case as well instead of running to Memphis to trick an old man who was not aware of the BBD's jurisdiction.
ReplyDeleteThis a very important topic and at this time of year not everyone has the time to address it properly. And as this correction is the job of a blog, I request that this be addressed in length and dealt with after Pesach. At that time maybe we can actually create some pressure on the botay din to implement these changes.
ReplyDeleteThe husband can tell the beis din before the case starts that he only accepts the beis din hearing the case if they rule strictly al pi din and not pershora. He can write than condition into the shtar berurin. If the beis din doesn't accept this condition the husband has the right not to accept that beis din.
ReplyDeleteMoe, if the defendant insists on din only, the plaintiff is in a hopeless situation, because no B"D will adjudicate according to din only. Usually, however, both sides have leverage on each other, for example, they harass each other. To end the cycle of perpetual harassment, the sides will agree to a B"D that will adjudicate according to peshara, because no other B"D exists. This ends the jungle fight, but does not bring true justice.
ReplyDeleteEmes, correct, "Peshoro is meant to be used in very complex cases where there may be doubts as to what the halocho is. It is abused by being used in clear cut cases simply to practice socialism" and meet other non-halachic standards. If there were an authoritative Torah of Socialism, that would solve half the problems. There wouldn't be justice, but at least I would know and be able to follow the rules of the game. As it is, there is no justice and and socialism is applied arbitrarily, at Beis Din's will.
ReplyDelete@zshine Why would there be no beis din agreeing to use din only and not pershara? A new beis din could simply open shop in an area where none of the existing butei dinim agree to use din only. And then the defendant can say this beis din agrees to use din only, so unless you the plaintiff propose an alternative beis din that is agreeable to din only, we'll just have to use this one.
ReplyDeleteAlso, probably most of the time the defendant has more leverage than the plaintiff since the plaintiff is usually seeking to force the defendant to give him something whereas as far as the defendant is concerned if no beis din trial occurs he is at no loss.
Very naive moe, the Beis will decide whether or not he has that right and will give a siruv accordingly
ReplyDeleteNaive, the Beis din will do what they please anyway
ReplyDeleteYou can ask the blog owner after Pesach to bring this thread back to the top of the new threads.
ReplyDeletethen why wont these rabbonim use their influence to enforce the BBD in the F/E case? these rabbonim are (probably) the most senior rabbis ion the Washington area.
ReplyDeletefor starters, they can invite Mr F (and his daughter) to shul on Shabbat (or perhaps this pesach), and give him an aliyah. in public.
Halachicly, unless the litigants agree to peshara the beis din is mechuyin al pi halacha to use din only.
ReplyDeleteHas what right? Halacha itself gives any litigant the right to insist beis din stick to din and not peshara.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Kalman Winter, zt'l, passed away in October 2012. Rabbi Hillel Klavan is retired and lives in Olney, 10 miles from Silver Spring where Aharon Friedman lives. I am sorry to say that he doesn't have any influence on the young am-haratzim in Kemp Mill who follow the trend of ORA.
ReplyDeleteNot true, poskim clearly discuss forcing peshara
ReplyDeleteGood idea. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteLol, the Beis din decide what the halacha is, and will issue a siruv if you don't comply
ReplyDeleteThe Halacha l'maaisa as paskened in the Shulchan Aruch, poskim, Rav Moshe, etc. is that either party has three right to demand din and not peshara.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Klavan passed away a month or two ago.
ReplyDeleteThere is no beis din until the two sides agree who the beis din will be. And one side could choose to agree only to a beis din that does din and not peshara.
ReplyDeleteI did not know! No one told me. He was a very good friend to my cousins. http://washingtonjewishweek.com/29763/rabbi-hillel-klavan-a-distinguished-and-honorable-gentleman/community/obits/
ReplyDeleteBaruch dayan emes.
Oy. He's trying to tell you that many BD will not be pushed around by the nitva. Instead, they do the pushing around.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, if you don't do it their way, they'll have no qualms about issuing a seruv, since you didn't play by the rules. Their rules.
http://www.courts.state.ny.us/excellence-initiative/ invites anyone to submit comments. I gave my name and email and submitted this comment:
ReplyDeleteThe Bible states Deuteronomy 1:11-18:
“May the Lord, the God of your fathers, increase your numbers a thousand fold, and bless you as He promised you.— How can I bear unaided the trouble of you, and the burden, and the bickering! Pick from each of your tribes men who are wise, discerning, and experienced, and I will appoint them as your heads.” You answered me and said, “What you propose to do is good.” So I took your tribal leaders, wise and experienced men, and appointed them heads over you: chiefs of thousands, chiefs of hundreds, chiefs of fifties, and chiefs of tens, and officials for your tribes. I charged your magistrates at that time as follows, “Hear out your fellow men, and decide justly between any man and a fellow Israelite or a stranger. You shall not be partial in judgment: hear out low and high alike. Fear no man, for judgment is God’s. And any matter that is too difficult for you, you shall bring to me and I will hear it.” Thus I instructed you, at that time, about the various things that you should do.”
The Bible further states Deuteronomy 16:18-22
“You shall appoint magistrates and officials for your tribes, in all the settlements that the Lord your God is giving you, and they shall govern the people with due justice. You shall not judge unfairly: you shall show no partiality; you shall not take bribes, for bribes blind the eyes of the discerning and upset the plea of the just. Justice, justice shall you pursue, that you may thrive and occupy the land that the Lord your God is giving you. You shall not set up a sacred post—any kind of pole beside the altar of the Lord your God that you may make—or erect a stone pillar; for such the Lord your God detests.”
Soncino Talmud explains in Sanhedrin 7b:
“Resh Lakish said: He who appoints an incompetent judge over the Community is as though he had planted an Asherah [A sacred tree or pole associated with the ancient Semitic cults.] in Israel, for it is written: “You shall appoint magistrates and officials” (Deuteronomy 16:18) and soon after it is said “You shall not set up a sacred post—any kind of pole” (Ib. 21). R. Ashi said: And if such an appointment be made in a place where scholars are to be found, it is as though the Asherah were planted beside the Altar, for the verse concludes with the words: “beside the altar of the Lord your God” (Ib.).[The scholars are compared to the Altar, because they impress upon sinners that they should mend their ways.]
I got this reply
On behalf of Chief Judge Janet DiFiore, thank you for sharing your comments and joining us in the implementation of the Excellence Initiative.
But you are forgetting what the halacha is. The beis din has no jurisdiction over the nitva until the nitva agrees to accept their jurisdiction. The Halacha states that if the plaintiff has a beis din send out a hazmana to a nitva and the nitva responds to said beis din advising them he has chosen a different beis din, then the first beis din chosen by the plaintiff is out of the picture. That is the Halacha. The Halacha is that they can only issue a siruv if he fails to respond altogether. As long as the nitva responds providing an alternative beis din of his chosing, the Halacha is the plaintiff's beis din has finished its role.
ReplyDeleteThis is not correct. We pasken "Mitzvah l'vtzoa". Ba'alei din are supposed to seek phshara in every case, and the judges are supposed to encourage it.
ReplyDeleteSecond, even as a matter of din, the Rema paskens that division of assets in a marriage is in accordance with the common practice of the Jewish community in which the marriage took place, unless the parties specify otherwise. I am not an expert here, but I suspect in the US this is equitable distribution or something pretty close.
They can encourage peshara, even strongly, but at the end of the day either party to the case has the halachic right to demand din and not peshara - and beis din is halachicly required to honor that demand even if only one of the parties to the case demands din-only.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, please cite the mekor for the aforeclaimed Rema discussing marital distribution in case of divorce, so we can see if your reading of it as paskened halacha l'maaisa is correct. I believe your analysis of it, as well as how it is applied in America, doesn't stand. Halachicly, most of the assets are the husband's alone, and not the wife's even during the course of the marriage - that halacha demands that a happily married wife must first obtain her husband's permission before she can make any purchase that has more than a nominal (small) cost [to the point where halacha stipulates that if a wife makes a purchase without her husband's permission, the husband has the halachic right to reverse the transaction with the merchant and get his money back that his wife spent.] Even the wife's salary from the income she generated while working during the course of her marriage, halachicly is the exclusive property of the husband. (Unless she had earlier in the marriage told the husband that he is released from having to support her and he is not obligated to rescue her if she's, say, kidnapped. In the few cases where a wife invoked that right, her future income, from the time she made that statement, remains hers.) So the halachic reality is that for the most part the assets were the property of the husband during the marriage and simply remain his property after the marriage. There's nothing to split.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150912012412/http://www.torah.org/advanced/business-halacha/5757/vol1no30.html
ReplyDeleteDream on
ReplyDeleteLet's take the Aish Hatorah case. They accepted a beis din, but some other beis din decided to mix in and issue siruvim and ikkules. Did Aish have any recourse? Now, take a simple guy from down the road: If a "beis din" decides to push him around, does he have any recourse? Even if he is Feinstein/Weiss, he didn't seem to have options. I think that it is extremely important for you to recongnize and verbalize what is going on in Botei Din. At that point you can state the halacha and offer that as a solution.
ReplyDeleteSo you keep mentioning 'The Halacha' over and over again. How do we help you understand that many BD today don't care what the Halacha is?
ReplyDeleteEveryone and their mothers, aunts, and cousins knew about the racket Epstein and Wolmark were running. Yet, it was only the Feds that put them out of business. Where were all the rabbis and Halacha then?
If you really think that people play by the rules today (even so-called gedolim), then don't answer any emails from Nigerian monarchs with millions to share.
That's not what actually happens in Beis din,
ReplyDeleteMoe Ginsburg is very naive. Moe please tell us all of botei din that use din not peshoro especially when it comes to divorce. other than Rav Gestetner I don't believe such a bais din in the US exists. It does not matter what the Halocho says unfortunately, the facts on the gorund are the antithesis of the halocho.
ReplyDeleteReally Mike. There is a big machlokes as to whether one has to follow peshro in every case. So if I call you to baids din and say your property is mine, bais din needs to give half to me because they need to do peshoro. Really and don't tell me I am simplifying peshoro because that's what some of the botei din do especially when it comes to Equitable Distribution.
ReplyDeleteYou are right that you are not the expert here. What has taken place is that many many frum women have ceased being frum gone to arko"oys and stolen their husband's property. Then you turn around and say that the minhag is equitable distribution or something close. That's not called minhag that's called ain ha'chote niscar.
The minhag of the goyim through arko"oys was forced on many Jewish men and I have extreme doubts that this then constitutes what the Remo meant.
Please supply a source for your claims as to what the Remo holds.
If he never signed s shtar berurin then the beis din has no hold or jurisdiction over him. He can freely ignore them and go to his own chosen beis din.
ReplyDeleteAs DanielNY1 answered you, you may be right about the halacha, but it doesn't help you much. We need to accept the facts on the ground and work from there.
ReplyDeleteYes, the beis din can only encourage pshara, and the ba'alei din can insist on din. That doesn't mean, however, they are behaving properly in doing so. I assume you are aware that the gemara lists insisting on din as one of the reasons for churban bayit sheini.
ReplyDeleteAs for the source, I am afraid I have been reviewing Even Haezer during lunch breaks, so the volume is in my office. I'll try to remember next week. I seem to recall it is near the beginning of Hilchot Ketubot. He explicitly points out that he does not pasken like Rasb"a, as I recall.
As to what the standard in the US is, that would depend on common usage in the community, so it is possible I am far off base. Especially regarding the more insular Chassidic communities with which I have very limited experience.
Most butei dinim don't send mafia men with cattle prods, handcuffs and bats to violently beat those ignoring them. So Mr. Epstein's actions can't be used to compare to even "bad" butei dinim.
ReplyDeleteDon't sign a shtar berurin and only agree to a beis din that agrees to din.
ReplyDeleteYet the poskim rule that even today either litigant has the right to insist on din.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that under normal circumstances all litigants should be amenable to accept peshara rather than din. As the halacha strongly pushes (even though doesn't mandate) peshara. But there is a reason the halacha does allow a litigant to insist on din rather than peshara. For certain cases it is truly justified to insist on din. It's a minority of cases but there surely are cases that need din. And I strongly propose that in our day and age it is just, halachicly correct, halachicly best and most wise for a husband to insist on din, and not peshara, in divorce cases. This is because in our day and age there is an extremely strong feminist pressure upon butei dinim to amend the true halacha and rather rule in accordance with American/Western societal norms in divorce issues even when they directly conflict with halacha. And if they are free to use peshara, it very frequently occurs they will stretch what they consider peshara to extremes to meet American/Western societal norms that differ from Torah norms.
ReplyDeleteAnd, again, regarding equitable distribution there is only even a question whether or not to distribute equitably if it was a joint asset -- according to halacha -- in the first place. If halacha considers an asset or money to be the full exclusive property of one of the spouses during the course of the marriage, then there is never a halachic consideration of equitable distribution. It obviously remains that person's full property after the marriage just as it was during the marriage. It's only a question if halacha considered it a joint during the marriage.
This guy Moe Ginsburg continues with his naivite. it is laughable frankly. Where exactly should I find 3 dayonim from? I just looked in my pocket and they were not there.
ReplyDeleteRead this Moe and see how these Botei Din violate Halocho.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6808207101836063741&q=excommunication&hl=en&as_sdt=4,33
Moe it's time to get real. Women refuse to go to a Bais Din at the best of times in a divorce because they know they will get a lot more from court.
And then these corrupt botei din will write a get for her irrespective of whether it is a Get Meuseh or not.
Perhaps the Baal HaBlog will explain to us why he censored what I wrote about a particularly despicable dayan in Brooklyn who writes Gittei meuseh for a living.
ReplyDeleteAn anonymous commentator making unsubstantiated comments of alleged very bad activity - does not warrant posting - that should be obvious
ReplyDeleteIt is very far from obvious.
ReplyDeleteRav Elyashiv held that most Gittin in NY state were tainted because of get meuseh. The Shulchan oruch states that a bais din is not allowed to charge beyond the sechar betailo. A single phone call would ascertain that the shulchan oruch is violated in this regard. This man is discussed pretty much in this article. And rabbi bleich holds similarly.
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/religion/features/n_9013/
While it is very nice to believe that people should be given the benefit of the doubt, I don't think that that should apply to those who make their living in the divorce industry. They lost their chezkas kashrus a long time ago.
Your brother and possibly you have both seen the mesiras moydoo regarding this particular case.