The Battered Husband by Barbara Bensoussan describes a little known issue: husbands who are abused by their wifes. The Shalom Task Force Hotline receives over 1000 calls a year and 5% of those calls come from Jewish Orthodox men. Barbara interviewed both Sharron Russ and Meir Rizel, Shalom Task Force’s Director of Men’s Education, and shared their stories and experiences with her readers.
When Chaim got married 15 years ago, he never anticipated that his wedded bliss would degenerate into a nightmare. “For the first few years everything was more or less okay, although my wife Naomi never wanted to participate in any family gatherings on my side of the family,” he says. “My siblings tried to welcome her, but she never seemed interested. My sister thinks Naomi was intimidated by us. The result was, I was prevented from participating much in family events.” Chaim wanted to make his marriage work even when his wife was difficult, especially because they had children right away. The first few arrived in rapid succession, and the third had some developmental issues. Chaim was learning in kollel, and money became very tight. “Maybe it was the stress of lots of kids so fast, plus Naomi working so hard, and us never having enough money that made everything start to unravel,” he speculates. “She was also a perfectionist who always wanted our Shabbos meals to be fancy and the house just so.” After several years of this stress, Naomi started becoming extremely demanding. By then Chaim had dropped afternoon seder and begun working in a local grocery store to make ends meet. Since Chaim had a break between morning seder and going to work, Naomi used to leave him a long list of things she wanted done: shopping, housework, paperwork for their daughter’s special programs, forms for government assistance programs (because of their low income). “If I didn’t manage to do everything she wanted me to, oy vey!” Chaim relates. “She’d start screaming so loud our neighbors used to hear, which was a terrible chillul Hashem. Or she’d punish me by saying I wasn’t allowed to touch the supper she’d made, and if I tried to take a pot to make myself something, she’d scream that I wasn’t allowed to touch her pots. Very often I’d go to bed hungry to avoid making more of a scene in front of the kids.” Chaim was increasingly miserable as the years went on, but he felt responsible for his six children. How could I leave my kids with a crazy woman? he thought. How would the children find shidduchim if their parents divorced? But Naomi’s mental health only seemed to deteriorate. Naomi’s sleeping habits became very erratic; she’d be up all night obsessing about her terrible life, lack of money, and stress. She expected Chaim to keep her company all night long. “When my eyes began closing of their own accord, she’d pour water on me to wake me up, then laugh at my reaction,” Chaim says. “One night she threw my tallis bag clear across the living room. “She stopped caring who saw her behavior. Once she came into the store where I worked and began throwing cans of food at me. Someone called Hatzolah, but she ran away, and when one of the men approached her and tried to convince her to come with him, she refused.” [....]
We don't know what he was saying to her about the list of things she had him do. If she was earning the majority of the income then he for sure should be helping her out. He might have been wasting her money away and that is why she said he could not eat. She might have felt that his behavior was taking food out of her mouth or her children.
ReplyDeleteOf course in the reverse scenario, where a breadwinner husband is extremely demanding of his wife, gives her her marching orders what she must do each day, yells at her (including in public) if she doesn't do what he told her to, doesn't let her eat supper until she satisfies him and pours water on her face and throws her pocket book across the room, you "liveandletlive" will be the first to defend him by speculating that he earns the majority of the income that she wasn't helping out enough and therefore deserved what she got.
ReplyDeleteThis post is confusing two issues:
ReplyDelete1) Domestic abuse (emotional, verbal or physical) should never be tolerated regardless of which spouse is the victim. It is impossible to get reliable statistics on the prevalence of this, but it is certainly not to be minimized as rare.
2) A marriage whereby one spouse is the main breadwinner whilst at the same time managing the day-to-day running of the home and children's school lives, is surely going to be put under enormous strain. If the "minor income" spouse has the ability/health to get a job or take more responsibility in home-life, but instead chooses to handover the majority of family responsibilities to their spouse, then it is understandable that tensions and resentment would arise. Even if both parties entered this marriage with full agreement of this setup, it would be foolish for either party not to foresee resentment building up over time. This in no way condones domestic abuse, but it may be a symptom of the strain of such a marriage.
liveandletdie: If you are serious, then you are sick in the head.No explanation necessary.
ReplyDeleteAt Shabbos visits over the years, I have seen numerous women who were out of control, really just pushing around the entire family, including the husbands. This certainly exists. And the men get no sympathy.
ReplyDeleteyou (or the article) would have done better to find an example which didn't involve someone having a mental breakdown as she evidently did.
ReplyDeleteDavid, Amen!!!! If the situation was the reverse, every woman in the world would be yelling "abuse".
ReplyDelete#2 is bogus. There is NEVER an excuse for abuse (regardless of who is the breadwinner and which spouse is the victim). If their is resent, try to talk through it. If that doesn't help, get counseling. As David (below) noted, if the situation was reverse (switch the spouses to male breadwinner and female non-breadwinner), every woman in the world would be screaming "abuse". The double standards never cease to amaze me.
ReplyDelete@Ben - I received this reply to your comment from a well-known therapist (who wishes to remain anonymous)
ReplyDeleteis simple. To the victim, the mental issues of the abuser are irrelevant. This is perfectly identical to either direction of the abuse, husband to wife or wife to husband. The real issue that distinguishes these two scenarios is that women victims are blindly believed, and the abuse is accepted as fact (triggering a string of consequences), while men are not just not believed, but also subjected to the system that prosecutes them and punishes them. The system has become an easily used weapon of abuse.
All abusers are having a “mental breakdown” of sorts.
You're joking right?!?! Feminists will be the FIRST ones to tell you, "there is never an acceptable reason for abuse". Valid complaints (not carrying enough of the weight with income, household chores, etc.) are not reasons for abuse. You talk about them. If this doesn't get anywhere, you go to a counselor. If this still doesn't help and there is no choice, then you divorce. Abuse can NEVER be excused (whichever spouse or for ANY reason)....
ReplyDeleteExcuse me, but maybe the woman spent many hours begging and pleading with her husband to get help or to get a job .. or to manage .. That is also abuse. Which Rav allowed him to work such a menial job while she was stuck with managing the home and kids and working and no money. Her behavior is NOT acceptable but understandable given the abuse HE puts on her. What kind of a man only has a part time job when his family is not managing ???? He could easily go to a Daf Yomi shiur. They BOTH need help. This is hardly a situation where the woman is beating the man. What kind of a man sits in kollel knowing that his wife is so overwhelmed near breakdown??
ReplyDeleteThe behavior is not excusable but understandable if the man was not doing anything to relieve her burden that she kindly took over so he can learn. This sounds like a woman who is just maxed out by doing her burden and his. The story does not state that he went to counseling and she refused. This does not sound like she was beating him for doing the slightest infraction and the like. She wanted to function. Taking a job in a grocer is hardly helping relieve her burden. I am the FIRST to say something when the man is being abused as I know of TWO situations where it did happen.. but this is not it.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if the man was actually being the breadwinner then this kind of thing would not being happening. If you read Pirkei Machshava by R' Ezriel Tauber you would see that it's not natural that the woman is doing the parnasa and taking care of the home and kids.
ReplyDeleteYou sound like one who says, "I don't condone terrorism, but...."
ReplyDeleteAre we talking about the same "Jewish world" or a fraction of a fraction of the Jewish population?
ReplyDeleteSounds like you are justifying abuse. Mazal Tov.
ReplyDeleteYou know very darn well if the role were reversed you and all the women in the world would be yelling "abuse". Give me a break!!!!
ReplyDeleteSo 1) talk about it 2) get marriage counseling 3) and if 1 and 2 don't work get divorced. Abuse is never justified. Try again!!!!
ReplyDeleteYou must not know too many frum men. At least not outside of a fraction of a fraction of the Orthodox community.
ReplyDeleteSee my above comment/s about if the roles were reversed. You keep justifying abuse. Have a nice day!!!!
ReplyDeleteRight, the woman nebech gives birth to children. So she must get a free pass on all her fallacies and bad behavior. The man is the family breadwinner supporting the family but he must be having a jolly good time every day with lots of fun and little sweat earning his income. So he must take the blame for all her misbehavior.
ReplyDeleteGot it.
Except the Rambam says a wife must treat her husband as her King and do whatever he wants or says. But Rambam is probably too old fashioned.
A wife has a laundry list of obligations. Yes, that's correct. A wife has many obligations to her husband and children. Her husband is bringing in an income. She probably doesn't complain when his income pays for her restaurant nights.
ReplyDeleteOf course it wouldn't be happening. Rule #1: The wife is always right. Rule #2: If the wife is wrong, see Rule #1.
ReplyDeleteWhat about wives who spend more than their husbands make. How should they be reined in when they're splurging on jewelry, restaurants and other finer items while her husband is working his tuchas off?
ReplyDeleteNo, she was just yelling at him in public and throwing cans of food at him in the above situation. Sounds like a decent nice woman with, nebech, a bad husband who keeps ducking thus not allowing her to hit him with the cans she's throwing at him.
ReplyDeleteThe wife is always right. Even in hypothetical situations.
ReplyDeleteAnything the wife does wrong is understandable. In fact she isn't even wrong.
ReplyDeleteHuh.. It's debatable who is the terrorist here. The woman is doing soo much and the man thinks he is being a tzaddik by taking a PART TIME job to help with the finances . Maybe he should offer to find her a sem girl to help out. Maybe he should appreciate his wife's efforts etc. Get her help!! but not call her an abuser.
ReplyDeleteThe one that makes it seem like you aren't frum unless you are in kollel.
ReplyDeleteSounds like you are justifying a man not doing enough to make sure it didn't get to this level in the first place! What kind of a man does not take initiative when he sees his wife is just not coping? What kind of a man stays in kollel even part time when his wife is not coping?
ReplyDeleteI am not saying that throwing cans at him in public is okay or acceptable. She for sure needs help.. but so does he! he sounds like he thinks he is doing a big chesed by working part time. He should be working FULL time and making sure she gets 1. counseling 2. enough sleep 3. enough food
ReplyDeleteThere is no way for the role to be reversed since most men do not take care of the kids by themselves, do all the house work, do all the cooking AND work full time while their wives just sit and study. Nor do they become pregnant for 9 months and do all of the above anyway!
ReplyDeleteby the way, I totally agree that this would apply to women who spend more than their husband's make while they are working their tuchas off.. but even if the man is working like that the wife is still 1. taking care of his home. 2. taking care of his kids. 3. carrying his children in her womb for 9 months.. women aren't free labor either
ReplyDeleteIf this were a woman , she would be called a liar. Abuse is never justified but it can be stopped if proper help us obtained. This man wasted Shalom Task forces time. What was he doing to make the situation better?
ReplyDeleteThis husband is not bringing in the income. SHE is the one bring in the income and then he has the nerve to be annoyed that she asks for help. Sorry, but in this day and age many men feel entitled to sit and learn and act like they are their the big zechus for their wives.. and therefore don't feel the need to help them. This guy thinks that working part time in a grocer is enough.. not when you have to feed 6 children!!
ReplyDeleteActually, I do know plenty of frum men . I also know of a situation very similar to this one and know that the woman is totally maxed and working til 4AM each nite while doing practically everything while the husband can't find the time to manage the money and therefore they are always on the brink of financial ruin . But this person I know is going for therapy and taking efforts to make life easier so she doesn't blow up. so don't judge
ReplyDeleteBut this man is not earning most of the income. SHE IS. The woman does not get a free pass. She MUST get help. However, he is not this victim of abuse if he brings it on himself. What initiative has he done to make things easier for her?
ReplyDeleteSo what you are saying is that a man can not do his part and his wife can get physically maxed out due to lack of sleep and basic needs and yell victim.. the only abusive part here is the throwing of a can. If he is not doing his part with the needs of his family then he is de facto making it hard for his family to be fed.
ReplyDeleteI doubt the Rambam would agree to a woman not getting what she needs while the husband sits and learns. I doubt the Rambam would agree that a man should only work part time when his wife his maxed out from working full time and taking care of the house and kids.
ReplyDeleteDavid, not sure where you get this restaurant or vacation time thing.. the woman I know just wants to make sure that her kids have food and shelter and basic needs.
ReplyDeleteFind her a sem girl? Should he hang around the seminary looking for a girl?
ReplyDeleteplaying with words. abuse is understandable!?!
ReplyDeletewhoever is called a rasha by chazal, is also understandable!?!
Listen, you can justify every case of abuse. "It takes two to tango"; "If only s/he would de escalate the situation"; "S/he would never receive what they got if they didn't deserve it." THe reality is that their is no justification for emotional abuse. Period.
ReplyDeleteHumiliating him does nothing for a normal wife.
For some reason my original comment did not go through. You are a sick person if you believe that she is not an abuser.
ReplyDeleteYou forgot about the tallis bag. And about yelling at him in public.
ReplyDeleteMitchell1970, where are these double standards of which you speak? If the husband was the main breadwinner AND was doing all the housework, preparing food, shopping, looking after children, etc, I would agree that the man may feel under strain and as a result could react in terrible ways. This is absolutely no different to the situation described in the original blogpost, but in reverse.
ReplyDeleteThe traditional marital setup whereby one spouse goes out to work to be the main breadwinner whilst the other focuses on looking after the children/homelife, is less likely to breed resentment as both are contributing and sharing overall responsibilities. Resentment sets in when one party takes on very few family responsibilities and instead, sits in Kollel knowing their spouse is finding the burden simply too much.
@Mitchell1970, I think you've lost the plot! This has been explained many times above. If the roles were reversed it would be equally unfair. Your scenario does not accurately paint a true reverse situation.
ReplyDeleteThrowing a can is assault and battery and maybe even assault with a deadly weapon.
ReplyDeleteWell David a little girl from Manchester UK treated her husband like a king and made a lovely home for her husband, cooked baked and carried two children in her belly for her husband whilst working all the while. She nurtured and breastfed them. Its not a big deal many of us women do it but in return he Michael Schlesinger of Vienna) was violent and emotionally abusive. Schlesinger used his bent psychiatrist friend to assist him in disposing of her into a mental home BH that plan was thwarted but he used his bent judge friend to take her children away from her. How do you reckon that David? Talking of abuse.
ReplyDeleteHow about something novel.. let him wash the dishes or some other housework once awhile. How about take the kids to the park etc HIMSELF and let her have a rest. He could CALL a local seminary and tell them that his wife needs someone to help out. He could call an organization like NITZA to help her .. This is hardly a case of abuse. It's a case of a woman being maxed out by the system and her husband not doing what he is required to do and then crying victim. How many Shailos did he ask about doing what he is doing?
ReplyDeleteActually, you can't. This is not a case of abuse but rather a case of one person being maxed out while the other one cries victim.
ReplyDeleteExcuse me, while it is definetely NOT correct but not taking care of your family can bring a lot more damage.. She needs to be in the care of a therapist and someone to help her cope.
ReplyDeleteWhile it is not correct , if he is not doing what he is supposed to he is bring it on himself. If the story was a man who was helping with EVERYTHING at home and telling his wife not to work while he takes over the parnasa this would be totally different.
ReplyDeleteYou are spewing nonsense. This is not a case of abuse but of a couple who needs help with their priorities and mental well being.
ReplyDeleteConsidering the abuse of having everything on her shoulders while he sits and learns I would say so. This is merely a couple who needs help readjusting how they do things.. I noticed in this instance everybody is taking what the guy says on face value. While her behavior is not acceptable , neither is his and what he is doing is also abusive.
ReplyDelete@liveandletlive - you have repeated your claim over and over again - but have not produced anything convincing.
ReplyDeleteyour logic would apply to any crime between people - - including murder. There is always a justification of some sort - it doesn't stop it from being criminal
Excuse me, there is nothing in this blog post nor in any of the responses that suggest that I am wrong. I notice how willing you are to believe this story on face value but when it comes to women they have to prove it . My logic is based on experience and frankly I wonder what your experience with abuse is to not see this for what it actually is. A man who does barely anything to relieve the burden of his wife is hardly a victim of abuse. This couple needs to be sitting in front of a competent therapist to evaluate what needs to be done to make things better. YES the woman acted in a totally unacceptable way and for sure needs help but the husband is no victim of abuse. It's scary how you think so.
ReplyDeletethey anonymous well known therapist replied
ReplyDeleteIn the case that was described in the article, the husband was working full time, and produced a healthy part of the family income. The discussion about the husband putting financial burden on the wife is not
relevant to this case. Moreover, he was pressed to complete a long list of chores before being permitted to eat – after a long work day.
There is simply no humanitarian way to explain this.
The husband was never the least bit abusive to his wife, though there were things about him that angered her. She frequently destroyed his things (including Tallis and Tefillin), and had threatened to get him arrested for physical violence. There was never factual support for accusing him of doing anything to her. On the contrary, she hit him, and he refused to defend himself other than to leave the premises. She openly admitted hitting herself to make bruises to use for evidence to arrest him.
It is unconscionable to consider the wife, who fabricates charges of physical abuse, arresting an innocent man, anything other than an abuser. Perhaps a mentally ill one, but an abuser. The point of the article is that the wife-victim is often not the case in an abusive marriage.
Where does it say this in the blog post? If this was in the blog post then it would make sense that it would be abuse but it isn't.
ReplyDeleteAlso, frankly it sounds like a lot of it is his word against hers. I have experience with abuse on women and on men and frankly just like you would expect a woman to produce evidence of such behavior you have to expect the man to do the same.
ReplyDeleteAlso, he should have not just provided a healthy part of the income.. he should have provided ALL of the income as per his obligation in the Kesubah.. A woman is under no obligation to work at all. She still sounds like she just couldn't cope with working and taking care of the family. The woman still had to do housework and take care of the children after a long day at work also. It's scary how in this day and age women are expected to work and day care of the home and kids. She shouldn't have to do it. It's his responsibility to make parnasa, not her.
ReplyDeleteYour problem is that you are condoning this abuse. There is nothing whatsoever that condones abuse, whether it is at the hands of the husband or the wife. Period. The fact that you keep arguing this point throughout these posts says speaks volumes about you.
ReplyDelete@Liveandlet live - you are simply rambling. There is no excuse for abuse!
ReplyDeleteThat's it. I'm through replying to you. According to your logic, many husbands would be right to abuse their wives, as they are working full time plus, while their wives are not working at all. I would guess you are either an OTD who has an axe to grind with Torah (but still knows how to cherrypick quotes to suit your agenda) or a radical feminist, man hater (who also knows how to cherry pick Torah quotes to suit your agenda). Have a nice LIFE!!!!
ReplyDeleteThen we are talking about a fraction of a fraction of the Jewish world.
ReplyDeleteSo address these issues with your spouse. Failing that, get marriage counseling (as a couple). And, if that fails (which unfortunately sometimes happens), get divorced. I could just imagine if I was to even imply that maybe, just maybe a woman who was being abused in a marriage "had it coming to her". The avalanche of "how dare you blame the victim" responses. You and liveandletlive are starting an awful slippery slope here by even saying "I understand her behavior" that would even be tolerated for a second if the sexes were reversed.
ReplyDeleteAgain, using your logic there are a fair share of husbands who would be justified in acting the way the above described wife did towards their spouses. I guarantee your logic wouldn't carry a piece of tissue if the sexes were reversed (no matter how overburdened the husband felt).
ReplyDeleteWhat if the woman is also (in addition to not contributing to the household income) not taking care of the home and she is neglecting the kids? Does that justify the husband acting in the above described ways toward his spouse? According to your logic, that seems to be the case.
ReplyDeleteI see. Women have a free pass because they carry kids for nine months. Good to know. Actually, there are woman who just sit, drink coffee, read beauty magazines, and yap on the phone all day, while the dust collects and the house is turned upside down, while hubbie is out busting his bottom side and then has to come home, cook for himself, make order in the home, watch the kids while wife goes out and paints the town with friends, etc. But hey, they carried the kids, so they put in their dues already.
ReplyDeleteHaving valid complaints, being a horrible spouse, not carrying enough of the weight does NOT justify abuse (emotional or physical) - NEVER NEVER NEVER. Good for the couple you mention getting therapy. I hope it works out for them.
ReplyDeleteThis is not a case of abuse but rather a case of one person being maxed out while the other one cries victim.
ReplyDeleteAgain. Every case of abuse can be justified using your line of logic. Abuse - including emotional abuse - is always unacceptable.
What in the world would humiliating her spouse do for the "maxed out" person?
I am not rambling . I am just giving intelligent thought processes to what may be going on. I am not OTD just a woman who works full time and understands that sometimes being a working mother is just WAY too much . I have no axe to grind with Torah just a system that expects women to be super women . Sorry but there is so much that could be going on before you call this abuse. I am someone who knows first hand what abuse is while the rest of you are just speculating. If this were a woman complaining of abuse you would call her a liar unless there was enough proof.
ReplyDelete@liveand let live - sorry strongly disagree - as do most professionals that someone who abuses because they have been maxed out is not called abusive.
ReplyDeleteAbusive is what happens to the victim - and that happens whether the abuser is psychotic, stressed out, on drugs or alcohol.
I strongly agree with you that there are reasons for being an abusive spouse - that can and should be dealt with - but a spouse who abuses is called an abusive spouse whether it is the husband or the wife.
Nope. On Frum Divorce Forums, if a woman says she was abused in her marriage I take her word for it and the legal system reflexively takes a woman's word for it. What else needs to be going on before it is abuse? A right hook to the eye.
ReplyDelete"However, he is not this victim of abuse if he brings it on himself." This statement says it all. I rest my case.
ReplyDeletethrowing the cans, denying him food, denying him sleep, humiliating him in public. Talk about finances, get counseling (as a couple), heck get divorced. NEVER resort to abuse (mental or physical). Do I have to do a power point illustration for you?!?!
ReplyDeleteIt sure does speak volumes about her. I hope she is not married and, if she is, oy va voy to her spouse - NEBECH
ReplyDeleteIf the roles were reversed, would the woman be "bringing it on herself"? I dare you to say that in a feminist dominated forum like "Divorced Frum Singles" on facebook.
ReplyDeleteI would also add to your list, there are also spouses who are war veterans (with PTSD) who went through hell times 1000. Should they get a free pass as well? After all seeing your friends blown up into pieces and being shot at on a daily basis for months (even years) on end is at least as rough as carrying children.
ReplyDeleteIt is scary how you are denying abuse is taking place. A husband does not have to be an angel or "carrying his weight" to be a victim of abuse.
ReplyDeleteYes, that is abuse. There is a special place in Olam Haba waiting for slime like that.
ReplyDeleteExcuse me, but every time you use the word "but" such as in "it is definitely "NOT" correct, but. . ." you are in effect negating what you said previously and justifying her actions, for which there is absolutely no justification. If you wish do discuss your pet peeve about men not helping enough around the house etc etc, please feel free to write your own post and get all that off your chest. Now we are discussing women who abuse and the point is that they are just as bad as men who abuse, and just like there is no justification for a man to abuse, there is also no justification for a woman to abuse. And if you do not understand this, you are enabling the abusers.
ReplyDeleteWhat people don't realize is that women in America have more power than men. If there's a divorce, the man loses all. Plus, the women are pumped up with chutzpah and resentment day and night. They are trained to disparage men. So you get lots of abuse cases where the man may be physically stronger but doesn't dare lift a finger lest the blue meanies come to his house and lock him up. Thus the woman is free to abuse him. And plenty do.
ReplyDeleteYes, it is important that the subject of domestic violence against men is addressed, just as much as it is important to fight violence against women. there should be no gender bias in the fight against domestic violence.
ReplyDeleteThis example tends to show that domestic violence sometimes goes hand in hand with economic power. Therefore, it is important to fight for equal pay, equal education and equal employment opportunities for both sexes.
The last israeli statistics show that the percentage of non-earning males is particularly high with israeli hareidim (54% of hareidi men in Israel don't work, vs. 24% of hareidi women...). According to this survey, it appears that hareidi women bear the brunt of economic responsibility within their community.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4669156,00.html
you are either being intentionally obtuse or you are literally the worlds biggest idiot. Either way, there is no excuse - other than self defense, meaning someone is in immediate physical danger - to throw a can at your spouse. None. He can be the laziest son of a gun in the world. She can be working 8 jobs while taking care of 10 kids. It doesnt change the facts on the ground. Abuse is a crime, and can never be excused or minimized.
ReplyDelete