Denying that our ancestors sinned - Theology versus Chazal

There has been a major discussion going on in the comments sections  click here regarding whether one can say that Dovid sinned or that in general our Biblical ancestors - including the Avos - literally sinned the way they are described in Tanach and Chazal. For example while it says in Shabbos (55b) that whoever says that Dovid sinned is mistaken, but Chazal also say in Avoda Zara (4b), that G-d forced the Jews to worship the Golden Calf and forced Dovid to have a sinful relationship with Batsheva in order to encourage repentance. It basically comes down to whether there is a metarule that they were free from real sin - that overrides all evidence presented by both the literal meaning of Tanach as well as explicit statements in Chazal, Rishonim and Achronim. It is also clear that there are disagreements in Chazal and Rishonim regarding what sins were done - however I don't see that they had a rule to reinterpret events to eliminate sins or to say that the sin was only relative to their exalted stature. [see Rav Yonason Eibschuetz below who notes a gemora which indicated that Yehuda sinned with Tamar - while Ramban and others considered it a mitzva.]

The Chazon Ish discusses this issue regarding the view of the Baalei Mussar that the Jews who came out of Egypt were contrary to strong evidence in Chazal and Chumash - tzadikim on a very high level. He says you can't ignore the words of the Torah and Chazal to accept such a view. A good example of the Mussar approach is Rav Dessler (Michtav M'Eliyah 1:161). I haven't found this discussed in non-Mussar works, haven't found it in Chazal, or Rishonim such as Rashi or Ramban. Can't find an example in Maharal (In fact aside from the Mussar approach it seems assumed that when a sin is mentioned it means a sin in the absolute sense).

update: The earliest example of the Mussar approach is from the Ramchal in his discussion of Agadta.

רמח"ל (מאמר על אגדות חז"ל - הקדמה לעין יעקב) "...וזה מפני כלל שבידם שבמעשה הצדיקים כל מה שיש לדרוש לשבח צריך לדרוש לשבח. וברשעים להיפך שכך היא הקבלה שכוונתו של הבי"ת במלות שהכתיב היתה לרמוז על כל פרטי הרשע של הרשעים ולבאר כל חלקי גנותם. ולהפך בצדיקים. ולהעלים כל מש שאפשר שיהיה בהם מהגנאי ולבאר כל מה שבשבחם...."

Chazon Ish (Letters I:208) responded to the assertion that the Jews in Egypt were on the highest level in Torah, Mitzvos, faith and piety. The assertion was based upon the medrashism which said that the righteous women went to the fields and gave birth and left their children and there were many miracles done for them…The deduction being that surely because of these righteous women and these miracles – the entire Jewish people must of have been totally devoted to G-d and his mitvos. A further foundation of this assertion was the medrash which states that the Jews were only enslaved for 86 years and that this is insufficient time to become significantly dissolute and debased. The Chazon Ish said that these deduction have no basis since they are all against what Chazal themselves say on the subject.   He concludes that the assertion that it was impossible for the Jews to become ruined since they saw miracles is not valid. In fact the Jews saw miracles when they were redeemed from Egypt and at the Sea, as well as the Maan and at the giving of the Torah – and yet they made the Golden Calf. Furthermore there were 10 miracles at the Beis HaMikdash and many miracles and wonders done by the Prophets – nevertheless this did not prevent them from having free will to serve idols. one should not interpret the early generations in such a way that it is impossible for us to comprehend and learn from them. In fact they had free will and this is main thing in avodas HaShem.

Chazon Ish (Letters I:209) states a rule that for major widely stated facts one should should not interpret them significantly from the clear simple meaning. Only isolated things can be occasionally explained differently then their simple meaning. In the Torah we see much effort to save the Jews from deserting the entire Torah and running instead after idol worship something which according to our present condition where the Yetzer harah has been killed is totally incomprehensible.The reality of the desire for idol worship is really beyond our comprehension is the same way a blind person can’t comprehend colors

A similar assertion is made by the Leshem regarding why Chazal tell us  that Yosef really was on the verge of an adulterous relationship  - despite that fact not being explicit in the Torah. He rejects the idea that Chazal used a metaprinciple that we always explain  things so that Tzadikim are understood to do good things and the wicked do wicked things. He says that Chazal say what they said because they know it to be true through ruach hakodesh - including the nature of their sins.

Leshem(Shaarei Leshem 2:4:19): The critical point is that every Jew is obligated to believe with perfect faith that all which is found in the words of our Talmudic Sages - both in halacha, Talmudic agada and medrashim - are in their entirety the words of the living G‑d. That is because everything that they say is with ruach hakodesh (Sanhedrin 48:). This includes even that which isn’t relevant to halacha and deed…Also all their decrees and statutes are not the product of human intellect at all but rather are the result of ruach hakodesh in which G‑d has expressed Himself through them. This is the great sound that doesn’t end (Devarim 5:19) of the giving of the Torah at Sinai and it expresses itself in the Oral Torah…. Thus, the Sages are just like messengers in what they say…. This is why the Baal Halachos Gedolos includes the Rabbinic mitzvos with the Torah mitzvos since all of them were given by G‑d (Chagiga 3b)…We can conclude from all this that anyone who tries to analyze the words of the Sages in order to establish the nature of their truth places himself in great danger. That is because man’s intellect cannot properly comprehend this matter and thus a person can come to heresy from the endeavor. This is what Koheles (7:16) states: Don’t make yourself too wise - why destroy yourself? A person who gets involved in this matter will find it very difficult to resist following his human understanding. He will end up going back and forth between the view of the Torah and that of his own understanding…. The righteous person lives by his faith because that is the foundation of the entire Torah….

 update: Regarding Dovid HaMelech see Shabbos (56a), Avoda Zara 4b) and other places

Yoma (22b):R. Huna said: How little does he whom the Lord supports need to grieve or trouble himself! Saul sinned once and it brought [calamity] upon him, David sinned twice and it did not bring evil upon him — What was the one sin of Saul? The affair with Agag.19 But there was also the matter with Nob,20 the city of the priests? — [Still] it was because of what happened with Agag that Scripture says: It repenteth Me that I have set up Saul to be king.21 What were the two sins of David? — The sin against Uriah22 and that [of counting the people to which] he was enticed.23 But there was also the matter of Bathsheba?[Rashi says because he had sexual relations with her] 24 — For that he was punished, as it is written, And he shall restore the lamb fourfold:25 the child, Amnon, Tamar and Absalom.26 But for the other sin he was also punished as it is written: So the Lord sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed?27 — There his own body was not punished — But in the former case, too, his own body was not punished either?28 Not indeed? He was punished on his own body, for Rab Judah said in the name of Rab: For six months David was smitten with leprosy, the Sanhedrin removed from him, and the Shechinah departed from him, as it is written: Let those that fear Thee return unto me, and they that know Thy testimonies,29 and it is also written: Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation.30 But Rab said that David also listened to evil talk?31 — We hold like Samuel [who says] that David did not do so. And even according to Rab, who says that David listened to calumny, was he not punished for it? For Rab Judah said in the name of Rab. At the time when David said to Mephibosheth: I say: Thou and Ziba divide the land,32 a heavenly voice came forth to say to him: Rehoboam and Jeroboam will divide the Kingdom. [...] Rab Judah said in the name of Samuel: Why did the kingdom of Saul not endure? Because no reproach rested on him,38 for R. Johanan had said in the name of R. Simeon b. Jehozadak: One should not appoint any one administrator of a community, unless he carries a basket of reptiles on his back, so that if he became arrogant, one could tell him: Turn around!39

[Rashi understands the above as meaning that Shaul did not have a degrading family tree while Dovid did.]

Yaaros Devash (1:15): Why does Yoma (22b) consider Dovid’s descent from Tamar to be degrading? Isn’t it a fact that at that time — before the Giving of the Torah — it was considered normal for the father of the deceased to marry the widow? It was only after the Giving of the Torah that the widow was restricted to a marriage with a brother‑in‑law? See Ramban (Bereishis 38:8) and Abarbanel who agree that Yehuda fulfilled the mitzva of yibum by marrying Tamar. Therefore why was it considered a degradation — the opposite seems true because Yehuda was fulfilling the mitzva of levirate marriage?

update: Rav S. R. Hirsch(Bereishis 12: 10 – 13):.  The Torah does not seek to portray our great men  as perfectly ideal figures; it deifies no man. It says of no one: “Here you  have the ideal; in this man the Divine assumes human form!” It does  not set before us the life of any one person as the model from which  we might learn what is good and right, what we must do and what we  must refrain from doing. When the Torah wishes to put before us a  model to emulate, it does not present a man, who is born of dust.  Rather, God presents Himself as the model, saying: “Look upon Me!  Emulate Me! Walk in My ways!” We are never to say: “This must be  good and right, because so-and-so did it.” The Torah is not an “anthology  of good deeds.” It relates events not because they are necessarily  worthy of emulation, but because they took place.    The Torah does not hide from us the faults, errors, and weaknesses  of our great men, and this is precisely what gives its stories credibility.  The knowledge given us of their faults and weaknesses does not detract  from the stature of our great men; on the contrary, it adds to their  stature and makes their life stories even more instructive. Had they  been portrayed to us as shining models of perfection, flawless and  unblemished, we would have assumed that they had been endowed  with a higher nature, not given to us to attain. Had they been portrayed  free of passions and inner conflicts, their virtues would have seemed  to us as merely the consequence of their loftier nature, not acquired  by personal merit, and certainly no model we could ever hope to  emulate.

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We also find criticism of the Avos in Chazal such as this medrash which said they erred in chinuch.

SHEMOTH RABBAH (1:1):  NOW THESE ARE THE NAMES OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL, WHO CAME INTO EGYPT WITH JACOB; EVERY MAN CAME WITH HIS HOUSEHOLD (EX. I, 1): Thus we read: He that spareth his rod hateth his son; but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (Prov. XIII, 24). Ordinarily, if a man's friend says to him: ' So-and-so, smite your son,’ he is ready even to deprive him of his livelihood.l Then why ’He that spareth his rod hateth his son’?2 To teach you that anyone who refrains from chastising his son causes him to fall into evil ways and thus comes to hate him. This is what we find in the case of Ishmael who behaved wickedly before Abraham his father, but he did not chastise him, with the result that he fell into evil ways, so that he despised him and cast him forth empty-handed from his house. What did Ishmael do? When he was fifteen years old, he commenced to bring idols from the street, toyed with them and worshipped them as he had seen others3 do. So when Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne unto Abraham, making sport (Gen. XXI, 9)- (the word mezahek being always used of idolatry as in And they rose up to make merry (Ex. XXXII, 6)4)-she immediately said unto Abraham: Cast out this bondwoman and her son (Gen. XXI, 10) lest my son learn of his ways. [see rest of medrash]