What has this to do with the title? lapid and bennet are not on the same page re the Rabbanut. The previous "rabbi" metzger was also elected by the Haredi world.
These elections, cause problems for a lot of groups. Shas broke up the Ariel-Amar deal, or Stav-Amar - because ROY wanted his own son to get the highly paid job. Amar has not broken his connections with Shas.
Lau was the smallest talmid hacham in the entire race, he is a "kid" in rabbinic terms. Shapira is obviously a bigger talmid chacham. And halachically it won't make much difference, the rabbanut will still do heter mechira etc. The Yosef family are very lenient in their halachic decisions, so again it is not so much a haredi victory.
Eddie you are jumping from point to point while not making any real point. Obviously we all know that the Chief rabbis, not matter who they are are part of and loyal to the State of Israel. Here are just some reactions:
"lapid and bennet are not on the same page re the Rabbanut."
RaP: Indeed, As far as Lapid goes he does not need rabbis in his life. He banned them from joining the coalition and his mantra is that he wants them out, out, out. While Bennett wants people like Rabbi Stav who will okay easy conversions, accept gays, accept the Reform and Conservatives, work for civil marriage because he is more liberal than anyone in the Mizrachi even. For now, having Israeli (mis-)education minister Rabbi Shai Piron in power is enough, but having Rabbi Stav in the mix as well would be overloading the system with ultra-liberals with their own reformist agendas. Keeping the status quo was not what was expected by Bennett and Lapid and that will now be the job of the new relatively Charedi Chief Rabbis.
"The previous "rabbi" metzger was also elected by the Haredi world."
RaP: True, who was to know that Metzger would become an utter disgrace, as he turned out to be corrupt and the elections of two new Chief Rabbis came none too soon. Rabbi Yisrael Meir Lau was in many the stand-in de facto substitute for Metzger, but that Rabbi David Lau is in, it means that the senior Rabbi Lau's influence will grow.
"These elections, cause problems for a lot of groups. Shas broke up the Ariel-Amar deal, or Stav-Amar - because ROY wanted his own son to get the highly paid job. Amar has not broken his connections with Shas."
RaP: What are these problems? Once Rav Ovadia Yosef makes up his mind and says what he wants, it is not negotiable, unless you are a gadol like him who take him on, as some did in the past. But now it will be Rav Ovadia Yosef's voice and decisions that will be in place since his son the new Chief Rabbi will not make a move without his father. Maybe things will even improve.
"Lau was the smallest talmid hacham in the entire race, he is a "kid" in rabbinic terms. Shapira is obviously a bigger talmid chacham."
RaP: Nothing to do with anything. First of all Rabbi David Lau is born in 1966, that makes him 46, not a "kid" and he is very much part of the current adult generation in Israel. He is not 17 like Rebbe Elazar in the Hagada, who even then was respected. The younger Lau will be effective because he is in tune with the modern Israeli mentality. He is me'urav bein habrios The the all-powerful media, Internet and Facebook culture is something he is very comfortable with and knows a lot about. He is more than enough learned to deal with anything in Israel especially as he will NOT be making a move without his father, the current Chief Rabbi of Tel Avid and former Chief Rabbi Rabbi Yisrael Meir Lau. So all in all, the two father and son teams, a special event in Israel's history, will prove to be very strong. It's the ultimate rabbinic "two-fer" deal that cannot lose if it plays its cards right, and it seems they will. The Laus are beloved and respected by Ashkenazim and the Yosef family is the crown of Sefardim in Israel.
"And halachically it won't make much difference, the rabbanut will still do heter mechira etc. The Yosef family are very lenient in their halachic decisions, so again it is not so much a haredi victory."
RaP: Agreed, but you are avoiding the real picture in front of us, of an Israel dominated by LaVaN -- Lapid, Bennett, Netanyau who would have wanted more pliant and compliant rabbis they could twist around their pinkies and who have launched an anti-religious war against Charedim as they simultaneously strike out for "peace" with the PLO (neat trick don't you think?) and in that context the election of two new Chief Rabbis from two of the most influential rabbinic families that are involved in Israeli political and rabbinical life, is a set-back for the LaVaN axis that cannot be denied.
I am sorry RAP, I totally disagree with you. Main points: R Stav is not gay/reform friendly. This is just fiction that you are buying into. he is modern, and he heads an institute that talks about modern halacha. Haredi reactionaries are very much herd mentality - they call this one nazi, the other amalek etc etc.
Some examples to illustrate haredi insanity:
In the 60s, R Unterman was modern and Zionist, and was not loved by haredim. When R Goren came along, suddenly the haredi world was backing Unterman.
- The haredi opposition to R Goren made a whole song and dance about how treif he is, and that he makes up halacha on geirus. Irony of ironies, 40 years later, the same haredi world did exactly the same dirty trick which R Goren did, and annulled thousands of conversions. The interesting thing is r Yosef opposed it now as he did 40 years prior - R Yosef being consistent.
RAP "who was to know that Metzger would become an utter disgrace, " Everyoen knew, there was so much filth flying around before Metzger was elected. But the same principle applied then. He was then running agasint the DL candidate R Ariel. R Ariel is a massive gadol. I knwo he isnt widely known, even in the MO world, but if you go to his shiur or read his works, you will see how great he is.
The problem is that Haredim do not want MO Rabbis around. it is as simple as that. I suppose that even if R Soloveithik was alive and he did run for the position, the haredim wouldn't want him there.
R Avraham Shapira was also a great posek, and he was also with RMF. Still the haredim didnt want him in.
Now, R Lau junior is really a kid - to be Chief rabbi - it's a joke. He is not a Rosh yeshiva, just a little guy from a small town, who has proteksia - which is Hebrew for having the right connections.
If you speak of LAVAN, then you are making a mistake.
Firstly, Bennett,and the DL people are opposed to PLO, so get yoru facts straight. Second, it was rav Shach in the 80s who was talking about land for peace, and this was with the PLO, not Snow white. B'H R' Shach did teshuva, however, the damaged he had done already reached Oslo. Now, Bibi, can call him a scoundrel, and the terrorist release is disgusting. however, there is a reason for this - it is most likely to do with Iran. Thsi has not been publicly stated, but you need to read between the lines. USA has certain weaponry, bombs etc, that can penetrate the undergound iranian sites. The are like mini atom bombs, but made of conventional explosives. So a deal has msot likely been made between Bibi and Kerry. Remember when we had kings, they had to do deals with the goyim, like SOlomon made, giving some cities to hiram. On a personal level, I have met R Yosef junior, and he is a fine talmid hacham. I may have preferred Eliayhu, but c'est la vie.
R & P: You are ignoring the 80% of Israelis who need to & are required to use the Rabbanut, its Kashrut and Beis Din services. How are they helped with the new twosome?
Eddie said..."I am sorry RAP, I totally disagree with you. Main points: R Stav is not gay/reform friendly. This is just fiction that you are buying into. he is modern, and he heads an institute that talks about modern halacha. Haredi reactionaries are very much herd mentality - they call this one nazi, the other amalek etc etc."
RaP: Please understand my points in the context of Rabbi Stav being supported by Bennett with the concurrence of Bennett's ally Yair Lapid. In that context Rabbi Stav is correctly viewed as ready to approve the full agenda of Bennett and Lapid in whatever way when the time would come. That is the perception and it is not unjustified. Thus Lapid, as connected to Bennett in effect helped to jinx and shoot down Rabbi Stav's chances. There was a palpable fear that Rabbi Stav would be elected. There is no reason to think otherwise. Not just Charedim are prone to herd mentality, everyone is, including you and me because those are unconscious forces that it takes a lot of awareness and insight to resist and decide if it is worth going against whatever "herd" we belong to as individuals. Even to talk the way you do is part of a certain type of herd. Yes, Charedim are prone to their type of hyperbole but so are ultra-liberals who have no shame in labeling their opponents with all sorts of nasty names.
"Some examples to illustrate haredi insanity: In the 60s, R Unterman was modern and Zionist, and was not loved by haredim. When R Goren came along, suddenly the haredi world was backing Unterman."
RaP: Rav Unterman z"l was from a bygone age, closer to the 19th or even 18th century than to modern times. He had been a Rov in the UK and he was a combo of many qualities that old-time rabbonim had (if you ever met such types in the olden, olden days, they were fine men, non-confrontational and very accepting of all types of Jews and of all types people -- they were very beloved) that is extinct today. Please do not make him sound as if he was a "Bnai Akiva" boy and a raving follower of Herzl which he wasn't. He was very much a part of that bygone age when ideological lines were not so sharp and people and rabbis could belong to different camps at the same time. Goren was more complex because he was very aggressive and feisty. I met him and saw him in action years ago when he was Chief Rabbi. A total dynamo and a total "vilda illui" which he was! Everyone agrees he did marvels as the first Israel Defense Forces' Chief Rabbi, but he got in over his head when he became Israel's Chief Rabbi, compared to the well-mannered and calming personalities of Rav Kook, Rav Herzog and Rav Unterman, on the other hand Goren was a "wild man" and he made the mistake of his life when he tried to matir mamzerim and that is when he got shot down by Rav Moshe Feinstein who made public protest against him in America from which Goren's reputation never recovered in the world of serious Halacha. It was not a political game, it was a very serious matter and Rav Moshe Feinstein finally put the brakes on Goren's plans.
Eddie said..."- The haredi opposition to R Goren made a whole song and dance about how treif he is, and that he makes up halacha on geirus. Irony of ironies, 40 years later, the same haredi world did exactly the same dirty trick which R Goren did, and annulled thousands of conversions. The interesting thing is r Yosef opposed it now as he did 40 years prior - R Yosef being consistent."
RaP: I beg to disagree. There is no comparison between what happened in Goren's time and what happened later. First of all, please don't make it sound like the Charedi world is standing around with an "agenda" and "hit list" to get back at anyone. It is too fractured and and has a short memory as much as any group does. It sounds almost like "blaming" the Jews of today for the death of Jesus 2,000 years ago! First of all Goren annulled a JEWISH MARRIAGE (not just issues of conversion) with the intent of allowing someone to remarry.
This is something that Rav Moshe Feinstein also did and he has teshuvos on it, and is still done today, to see if prior marriages were performed al pi Halacha but what Goren did was try to "sneak one by the censors" so to speak but he was caught red-handed and roundly HALACHICALLY disproven and rebuked for trying to be matir mamzerim.
On the other hand the case "40 years later" you refer to was done by Rav Sherman (guided by Rav Elyashiv) who annulled the conversions of RZ scholar Rav Drukman and it was discussed on this blog in detail (I opposed a blanket annulment by Rav Sherman of Rav Drukman's conversions because perhaps some of them were in fact good conversions. There should not have been a blanket ruling but rather the hard road should have been taken of reviewing each and every case on its own merits) but Rav Elyashiv supported Rav Sherman and that was that.
The State of Israel and Religious Zionist rabbis nevertheless recognize Rav Drukman's conversions while the Charedi world does not. But this is not news, because the Charedi world does not recognize even INDIVIDUAL conversions performed by many Modern Orthodox and Religious Zionist rabbinates and will require a second geirus or a geirus lechumra. But the point is you must not mix apples and oranges. The case with Goren involved MAMZEIRUS and it sunk his career while the latter-day struggle is over GEIRUS and Rav Drukman's career is still intact.
Eddie said..."RAP "who was to know that Metzger would become an utter disgrace, " Everyoen knew, there was so much filth flying around before Metzger was elected. But the same principle applied then. He was then running agasint the DL candidate R Ariel. R Ariel is a massive gadol. I knwo he isnt widely known, even in the MO world, but if you go to his shiur or read his works, you will see how great he is."
RaP: You say "everyone knew" but the truth is "everyone" did not know. As time went on and Metzger became better known then "everyone" was able to start putting allegations from the past together that then started to get stronger and stronger and by the the time his term was up the guy was under house arrest. Such is the human condition. Israel is a corrupt place where its presidents, prime minsters and defense ministers are forced to resign over fraud, sex, and political scandals too numerous to mention. Rabbi too are not immune and it was a mistake to nominate Metzger. But who knows what the exact plitics and deal-making invoilved at the time was all about. It is not a reason to smear all Charedim for it either. How much of a real Charedi are Israel's chief rabbis in any case? They are basically Israeli rabbis with friendly ties to the Charedi world. They would not be interchangeable with members or rabbis sitting on the Agudat Yisrael or DeGel HaTorah Mo'etzes. Yes, the are all sorts of saintly scholars in all the camps. the are even nice secular Jews and leaders who are not trouble makers and would do no harm to anyone. But as we know, politics is a rough and tumble place and if you are real tzadik you would not be in politics of any sort and running for any sorts of offices but rather rather humbly minding your won business and not running around waving your banner and tooting your own horn. This goes for Charedi, MO and secular alike.
But still, let us not get of the main point here, and that is that the likes of Yair Lapid and Naftali Bennet are now manning the ship of state and with every move and statement they make, they create counter-moves and developments that they cannot control and that will come back to haunt them in ways that they had never dreamed of and had never intended.
And now that reality is that two new Cheif rabbis are in place and both are connected to their well-known fathers who had also been Chief Rabbis and who know all the ins and outs and the ropes of the job. In the case of the two Laus they are the ultimate positive PR coup (barring anything unforeseen) and they are and will be loved since Rav Lau senior was probably the most popular Cheif Rabbi second only to Rav A.Y. Kook. And the two Yosefs are the ultimate rabbinic "power couple" because Rav Ovadia Yosef is the probably the most powerful and feared rabbi in Israel today, he even has international recognition and the fact that his son and protege is now the new Chief Rabbi incalculably magnifies his father's reach and power to the nth degree. These are NOT results that either Naftali Bennett or Yair Lapid wanted or counted on, but they only have themselves to blame for frightening everyone into a corner with this as the result.
Eddie said..."The problem is that Haredim do not want MO Rabbis around. it is as simple as that. I suppose that even if R Soloveithik was alive and he did run for the position, the haredim wouldn't want him there. R Avraham Shapira was also a great posek, and he was also with RMF. Still the haredim didnt want him in."
RaP: Um, and the MOs and RZs don't want Charedim either. Not sure which group is more intolerant. I have been among both groups many times and there is no monopoly on prejudice and bad middos in any group. Humans are humans and one will always find dislike for outsiders in any group. So please don't make it sound like Charedim have a monopoly on xenophobia.
The MOs and RZs have their agenda and they are very tied in with secular groups both in and out of Israel. But it is a struggle, and basically the Charedim are winning it via huge population growth. If MOs and RZ's would have as many kids as the Charedim they could also come with their numbers against the Charedim. So far though, all over Israel, there is room for all groups, even for agnostics like Yair Lapid.
Rav JB Soloveitchik was a complex man and like many rabbonim from his era he belonged to many worlds. He was once part of the Charedi Agudas Yisroel in America and was on its Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah but he eventually felt he had a mission to build up the newer American RCA and the thousands of rabbis he was educating and ordaining through YU. In his day he was in fact offered the Chief Rabbinate of Israel by Ben Gurion but turned it down. Rav Soloveitchik, while part of the American Mizrachi held strong "anti-Zionist" views til the end. He did NOT rubber-stamp and approve everything the Israeli government did.
Rav Shapira was a good kind man, a worthy Rosh Yeshiva but most people agreed he did not have the tough temperament to be a rov let alone the Chief Rabbi of Israel. It is not enough to be a "santa claus-type" with illusory "goodies" and a "ho-ho-ho" for everyone! Being a rosh yeshiva does not automatically qualify anyone to be a rov or a posek or anything else such as shochet, sofer, chazan, etc. In today's world people think that a rosh yeshiva is like a "wizard of oz" who can do anything, but that is just plain false.
That is why it is important that the Chief Rabbinate be manned by people who can fulfill their roles as rabbis and not as "roshei yeshiva" -- and it is why I am optimistic about Rabbi David Lau he is a practical rabbi suited to modern issues.
Rabbi Yitzchak Yosef is a man who wears many hats, among them as head of a yeshiva he founded, so it remains to be seen if he can adjust to the role of being a "people's rabbi" of the State of Israel that is so much part of what the "job description" requires.
But in either case, whatever they lack can be backed up by their fathers, and whatever they have can be magnified by their fathers. So it is a win-win situation.
Eddie said..."Now, R Lau junior is really a kid - to be Chief rabbi - it's a joke. He is not a Rosh yeshiva, just a little guy from a small town, who has proteksia - which is Hebrew for having the right connections."
RaP: Totally disagree. He ius born in 1966 and he is 46. Not a "baby" at all. He comes from a dynasty of rabbis, and he is the sone of one of the most famous and beloved rabbis not just in Israel but around the world. The Lau name is GOLD, pure and simple and you can bank on it, or take it to teh bank and you will not be disappointed.
Sure everything in Israel is about protektzia, that is not a chiddush -- the question is always what are you going to use your protektzia for and will it hurt or harm the you and the Jewish people and the State of Israel? And in this case it is clear that Rabbi David Lau will please everyone. He has NOT lived in the ivory towers of the Talmudists while at the same he knows all about and is a Talmudic scholar himself.
This is 2013 we are in, and not 50 years ago where there were still great names around. Today there are few great men, and even fewer great scholars. But let the scholars remain scholars and train the next generation of scholars or just learn Torah Lishmah. The job of Chieff Rabbi requires an entirely different PRACTICAL skill-set and Rabbi David Lau has it because he learned everything he needs to know for the job from his father who passed with flying colors and too bad that someone like like Rav Yisrael Meir Lau could not be Chief Rabbi for life then the scandals of Metzger could have been avoided and positive things could have been achieved.
But this a wonderful course correction and im yirtzeh Hashem Rabbi David lLau will bring much-needed relief and improvement to dealing with the practical things that need to be dealt with. You know in the olden days, when they gave semicha to American Charedi rabbis they would joke that all you needed was your rabbinical diploma and Rav Moshe Feinstein's telephone number to deal with any shaylos, and in the case of Rabbi David Lau he has a much much more than that going for him! He is wonderful 46 year old "young" rabbi.
Eddie said..."If you speak of LAVAN, then you are making a mistake. Firstly, Bennett,and the DL people are opposed to PLO, so get yoru facts straight."
RaP: Let's see Bennet do something NOW about the concessions that Israel is about to make to the PLO all over again, what is Bennett saying and DOING RIGHT NOW?? Nothing! He is a going along with the appeasement of the PLO and while he gives lip-service to the right wing, he is de facto like any Israeli left-winger who deludes themselves to think that by making concessions they will bring "peace" -- This did not happen when Ehud Barak pulled out of Lebanon and it did not happen when Arik Sharon pulled out of the Gaza Strip and it did not happen when Netanyahu pulled out of Hebron and it will never happen until the mashiach comes.
"Second, it was rav Shach in the 80s who was talking about land for peace, and this was with the PLO, not Snow white."
RaP: He said that exact thing "land for peace"? What are YOU talking about?
"B'H R' Shach did teshuva, however, the damaged he had done already reached Oslo."
RaP: Good joke, that Rav Shach "did teshuva" -- now I know you have been watching too many Disney films like "Snow White"! And you are now "blaming" Rav Shach for the Oslo Process?! Wow? Haven't you heard about how Saudi and Kuwaiti-loving President George Bush the First and his notorious Secretary of State James Baker who said "F_ _ _ the Jews" dragged tough-guy Israeli PM to the Madrid Conference before Oslo, and that before all that it was tough man Menachem Begin (the same one who "annexed" the Golan Heights) gave away the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt at the Camp David accords way back, was that also Rav Shach's fault? Get real please!
Rav Shach was no push-over and was a hard realist. He knew politics better than any Machiavelli as he pushed the Charedim into the Israeli government in 1976 with the election of Begin giving him the votes to push out Labor for the first time in Israel's history and extracted concessions in return that lasted until recent times. He created DURABLE political parties in Israel (SHAS and Degel HaTorah) out of thin air. He was a stupendous scholar but a VERY humble man. He was committed to EMES pure and simple and was NOT afraid to speak his mind to say the least. He wanted the Jews in Israel to be SAFE. He did NOT say that Israel must give back the Golan Heights poof just like that (he was not crazy and he was not from Neturei Karta), but he was against antagonizing the world by announcing meaningless "annexations" that would not be recognized by the international community and would just needlessly enrage the gentiles. Basically he was telling Begin to stop waving the flag and rattling sabers. Very smart political advice in that neck of the woods.
"Now, Bibi, can call him a scoundrel, and the terrorist release is disgusting. however, there is a reason for this - it is most likely to do with Iran. This has not been publicly stated, but you need to read between the lines..."
RaP: This matter is now "sub judice" as they say, no one on the outside really knows what's going on that's for sure, so let's see what happens.
"On a personal level, I have met R Yosef junior, and he is a fine talmid hacham. I may have preferred Eliayhu, but c'est la vie."
RaP: See my responses about this above. The 150 electors have spoken and the candidates have been chosen. Let's see what happens from here on forth. Ten years is a long time. But if used right it can be a golden opportunity to achieve amazing things to help Klal Yisrael and the State of Israel.
RAP, too many response from you that I can answer. R Shach was attacking all the institutions of RZ and Z. The IDF, the settlers, the hesder yeshivas, the Gush Emunim. he was attacking those who did not want to trade land for "peace". Of course, his daas torah meant that his Chazaka is infallible , eg like the one that there are no jewish gays. So if he siad you can trade land for peace, it means that the negotiations with the PLo would be with Snow white (lavan?). Now reality bankrupted r Shach, just as it did with R Kotler, R Wasserman, R Elyashiv, and the satmar rebbe. R Shach spent his last days simply reading RZ literature from R Goren (who was his senior in terms of learning). Thus he ended declaring it is assur to return Holy land won by miracles to terrorists. Duhh.. Simialrly, R Elyashiv, who was so agasint the Langer case, ended up bankrupt, by backing his poodle D' Sherman, in mattiring thousands of converts, and creating hundreds or maybe thousands of mamzerim. R Wasserman was bankrupt by tearing up visas to Eretz Yisrael, and condemning his follwoers to die in the Shoah. R Kotler, was also bankrupt by calling those visas "asher yatzar" paper, and he ended up with his own Vaad hatzoloh, which was in the business of chasing such "paper", and having to break shabbos for it. By bankrupt, i mean morally and halachically bankrupt - doing what they themselves once caleld evil, or coming round to the reality of their own short sitedness.
I am sticking to points of today while you are harping back to yester-years and creating your own revisionist view of Jewish history that has only one strong theme and premise, that anything and everything great Charedi leaders did or do is negative and irredeemable and atrocious (to say the least) while your own chosen heroes in the Modern Orthodox-Religious Zionist world are "wonderful" and they have no flaws that you can cite or admit to. You keep on pinning blame for latter-day events on yesterday's Charedi leaders while you bemoan that MO-RZ leaders are not given more recognition in the Charedi world of all places.
It is very hard to have reasonable discussion under such conditions.
Back to the topic of Yair Lapid's and Naftali Bennett's agenda, they have just been handed a big slap in the face by someone who is more realistic and mature than they are, Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon, who is smart enough to know that now is not the time to be fighting Charedim. Yaalon has always been consistent about this and has had major blow-out arguments with his rival in the government ex-Shin Bet head and ally (brain?) of Yair Lapid, MInister of "Science and Technology" (better yet: Next to Lapid he is the "Associate Minister of anti-Charedi Threats, Harassment & Incitement") who has the distinction of having the notorious Perry Committee/Commission named in his "honor" (charged with equalizing the burden of military service in Israel -- what does that have to do with his "science and technology" portfolio?) Yaakov Peri of Yesh Atid who wants to induce a civil war against the Charedim while Yaalon has been fighting him tooth and nail. Perri, Lapid, Bennett and Netanyahu want to openly and brutally break the Charedim, while Yaalon knows that this cannot be done by force at any rate, one must use a kinder and gentler approach to woo the Charedim into joining the state, or as my grandmother used to say it is easier to catch bees with honey than with vinegar:
Defense Minister defers conscription of hundreds of hareidi yeshiva students, due to ongoing deliberations over enlistment.
By Rina Tzvi 7/30/2013
Defense Minister Moshe (Bogie) Ya'alon has decided to defer the conscription of hundreds of orthodox yeshiva students until at least December, due to the ongoing deliberations regarding Israel’s new draft-reform bill.
The enlistment of five hundred and sixty yeshiva students, set to be drafted into the Israel Defense Forces in August, has been delayed, Attorney-General Yehuda Weinstein said, announcing the decision.
Yaalon had ordered that deferral letters be mailed on August 6 absent a court order to the contrary.
In February 2012 the High Court of Justice ruled that the exemption of ultra-orthodox yeshiva students from serving in the military was unconstitutional, tasking the government with drafting a new law."
Eddie said..."R Shach was attacking all the institutions of RZ and Z. The IDF, the settlers, the hesder yeshivas, the Gush Emunim. he was attacking those who did not want to trade land for "peace". Of course, his daas torah meant that his Chazaka is infallible , eg like the one that there are no jewish gays. So if he siad you can trade land for peace, it means that the negotiations with the PLo would be with Snow white (lavan?)."
RaP: Most of the things you mention were new at that time, the Charedi world was small, and a formulation of an opinion, a "hashkofa" on the issues of day was required -- that is what a true manhig beyisroel does. The Gush Emunim movement only started after Israel conquered the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan in the Six Day War of 1967, when the State of Israel was only NINETEEN years old. And Rav Shach was big enough to express learned opinions to both guide his relatively small group of followers (no doubt many wondered should they the Gush people -- and by the way, many did de facto by moving into areas around Yerushalyim added by Mayor Teddy Kolek to build new neighborhoods conquered by the IDF) and also try to insert his views into the broader debate. "Land for Peace" was actually born in the UN (where else) as the Six Day War fall-out culminated in (from Wikipedia:) UN Resolution 242 of 22 November 1967 adopted unanimously: '...sponsored by British ambassador Lord Caradon and was one of five drafts under consideration. The preamble refers to the 'inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in the Middle East in which every State in the area can live in security.'" Note it was the likes of Lord Caradon who came up with the Land For Peace" idea long before Rav Shach even said a word about it or probably even knew about it.
"Now reality bankrupted r Shach, just as it did with R Kotler, R Wasserman, R Elyashiv, and the satmar rebbe."
RaP: What "reality" is that? You seem to be bundling people from all over to suit your own untenable argument that seems to be based on one point only; "Charedi leaders are hopeless and stupid" while you would have had your leaders do better? Did they? Have you read Ben Hecht's book PERFIDY? Find yourself a copy and read it to see how Zionist leaders and Reform rabbis contributed to the Holocaust and how it was covered up, it makes your accusations against Charedi leaders look like child's play.
"R Shach spent his last days simply reading RZ literature from R Goren"
RaP: Who told you this? Rav Shach had his own sources, such as his own son Ephraim who was a RZ PhD and provided his father with enough information to make informed political moves.
"R Goren (who was his senior in terms of learning)."
RaP: Really? How do you know this? It's NOT enough to "know" how to learn, it also what you do with your skills and how you become known in the world of Torah.
"Thus he ended declaring it is assur to return Holy land won by miracles to terrorists. Duhh.."
RaP: Again, when did this happen? In any case the political situation after the Six Day War in 1967 was not the same as the political situation at the time of Rav Shach died in 2001. Also I am not sure if one can assume that everything from a man of 100+ is considered 100% reliably compos mentis. So one needs to be very careful when declaring what Rav Shach said or held of did not hold in sweeping terms.
Response THREE (FINAL) to Eddie @ July 30, 2013 at 2:49 PM
"Simialrly, R Elyashiv, who was so agasint the Langer case, ended up bankrupt, by backing his poodle D' Sherman, in mattiring thousands of converts, and creating hundreds or maybe thousands of mamzerim."
RaP: What are you talking about? Rav Sherman PASSULED (ANNULED) all of Rav Drukman's converts. And no, Rav Sherman was no poodle and Rav Elyashiv was fully entitled to push for that because once you open the flood-gates it will allow the 300,000+ GOYIM from the former USSR to just claim they are "Jewish" with easy rubber-stamp fake and fraudulent "conversions" run by the secular State of Israel, and that is what Rav Elyashiv stopped, the floodgates of false conversions from opening.
"R Wasserman was bankrupt by tearing up visas to Eretz Yisrael, and condemning his follwoers to die in the Shoah."
RaP: I would not sit in judgment of Rav Wasserman hy"d if I were you and I would check out all the facts first. What visas did he tear up and when? The majority of Rabbonim in Europe were fighting the Haskalah in Europe and like everyone else did not foresee the Holocaust. To blame them is nothing less than a blood libel. Try blaming the secular leaders who colluded with the British and the Nazis to keep out frum Jews from Palestine. It was a terrible time for the Jewish people and it is ridiculous to "blame" anyone with fake "20-20 hindsight"!
"R Kotler, was also bankrupt by calling those visas "asher yatzar" paper, and he ended up with his own Vaad hatzoloh, which was in the business of chasing such "paper", and having to break shabbos for it."
RaP: You play fast and loose with facts and reality. The Vaad Hatzola PRECEDED Rav Aharon Kotler's arrival in America. They were in fact the ones who brought him out to America and he then became a leader in it. There was Rav Lazer Silver, Rav Rav Shlomo Heiman, Rav Avrohom Kalmanowitz, the latter sent money to his yeshiva that had landed in Shanghai. The Vaad did good work during the war and after the war. Not sure what your problem is, but for PIKUACH NEFESH the Halacha is clear that one MUST be "mechalel" Shabbos because of the principle "pikuach nefesh doche es hashabbos"!
"By bankrupt, i mean morally and halachically bankrupt - doing what they themselves once caleld evil, or coming round to the reality of their own short sitedness."
RaP: You are clearly and openly basically making all this stuff up to suit your own ends and it's not quite clear what your own motives and why do it so consistently? Are you paid to do this by anyone by the way? It's just very confusing and it would help if you could show some OBJECTIVITY instead of your constant SUBJECTIVE attacks against anything you deem to be "too Charedi" to your liking.
Rap 1) I never supported Benent/lapid on the enlistment of the haredim. Since you falsely claimed that Bennet is now supporting the PLO, I had to make facts clear, that he is not. My personal take on hareid enlistment, is to reach an arrangement as was done previosuly, eg nahal. In any case, the IDF is cutting back it staff, so the whole idea today is moot. If, chas v'shalom there was a need for more soldiers, then it might become necessary to enlist more people.
2) You are either in denial of history or simply evading my points. So let us look at some cases.
R Wasserman, who was truly a giant in Torah, no question about that - opposed leaving Europe during the war, and prevented his students from doing so. He himself managed to get out, but perhaps due to his own guilt, returned to be with his flock. Are you saying this was a shinign example of a manhig with daas torah, or was it a total lapse of reason, morality, and false ideology mixed with wwashy halacha? Since, in practical terms terms, he was responsible for the fate of those he could have saved.
R Kotler actually smelled the coffee, but this was in America. The point about shabbes, was that there were still gedolim , like the previous Lubavitcher rebbe, satmar rebbe, who were mocking his efforts to save lives. Perhaps in haredi circles, none of this is important, they just give the censored version that the satmar rebbe weeped at r Kotler's funeral, and all was Ok.
3) R' Shach obviously had no halachic basis for his attacks on RZ , Gush emunim, just like r Elyashiv had no basis on his atatcks on R Goren. As R Henkin said, these were political not halachic attacks.
The statement I quoted from r shach was around the time of Oslo, so around '93. This was a purely Gush Emunim type statement. the more likely reason for his hostilty, was that his only son, Ephraim, was taken by the RZ world, and deprived him of a successor as a Rosh Yeshiva. Thus his hatred to the RZ movement. Similarly, R Elyashiv left the world of RZ and Joined the haredi world, which was perfectly fine, but he needed to show that his "geirus" was l'shem hareidus, so he had an easy victim in R goren. Had he really believed that a giur cannot be annulled, then his protoge r sherman would have suffered the same fate as R Goren did. However, he was cheered when he spoke at EJF meetings.
Now, perfidy, shmerfidy, you are comparing religious leaders to secular bureaucrats. First read this http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/04/guest-post-kasz.html
Next, on the hand, the Weissmandl types are saying that HAD the zionsits colalborated witht he nazis, they coudl have saved more lives. Yet, kastner, who did, and saed lives including the satmar revve, was called a murderer. So why does perfidy not apply to weissmandl? More hypocrisy.
When Eddie @ July 31, 2013 at 12:46 PM says things like"Now, perfidy, shmerfidy, you are comparing religious leaders to secular bureaucrats. First read this http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/04/guest-post-kasz.html" what type of person says "perfidy shmerfidy"????? It seems that he may as well be the twin carbon copy of Shmarya the anti-Charedi crusader of that blog who only knows how to find with Charedim and NO ONE ELSE. As if the rest of the world is a perfect place but even the greatest Charedi rabbi can never redeem himself/ How sad is that!.
Eddie, whoever you are wherever you are for whatever reason you are doing this: You fly around and twist facts like a ding-bat and it's hard to debate someone who is all over the place. So you think Goren is a hero but Rav Elyashiv, Rav Shach, Rav Aron Kotler, the Stamar ruv, Lubavitch, and Rav Elchanan Wasserman hy"d are all deranged losers??? Have they done even an ounce of good? Is the glass only half empty? How can anyone have a balanced discussion with you when you carry on so?
Just on a small point to show how off you are. Rav Elyashiv was never a "RZ" he was a Yerushalmi rov who worked for the Bais Din of Yerushalayim as a dayan for a state salary in the days when there was less ideological categorization. He left when he felt that he could no longer "vote his conscience" -- proof that there is not a shred of RZ in him, are any of his many children RZ? How about his son in law Rav Kanievsky is he a RZ too? What are you saying. Having ahavas Yisroel is not automatically a sign of being a RZ. You are just carrying on now.
Your rash word that are poor excuses for reasoned arguments have more holes in them than rotting swiss cheese. You just jumble up information and throw things around in mad bomber style. It is not a way of having a reasoned debate. It is a cut throat approach and you better cut it out soon.
In agreement with EDDIE. The better & more worthy choice was Harav Yakov Shapiro, a talmid chachem who was accepted by the Charedi & DL world. Rav Lau is a yingele with limited experience. Rav Shapiro would have been a more fit uniter for Israeli Klal Yisroel, yet the UTJ world is still in fear of anything that has a scent of Tziunut. These 2 choices will set into motion a vote for future Chief Rabbis as ONE CANDIDATE only. Shmittah and Kashrus will stay stagnant without any needed changes and the majority of Israeli are the losers... what a shame!!
I think this letter correctly portrays the view of the uneducated daati world. The person writing it has no idea of the relevance of the post of chief rabbi nor does he wish to acknowledge that this rabbi will have to interact with the irreligious as well. I am not a rabbi stav fan, but the country - sorry state - would do better with such a person than rabbis yosef and lau. I am not saying that rabbis yosef and lau are not talmidei chachomim. I believe they are but they are interested in a faction that doesn't care about the post they are assuming. nothing they say or do will really make a difference to the world they come from. on the other hand, their strict adherence to the torah understanding they have will be extremely detrimental to the relations between the daati leumi and everyone else. this will allow the post to disappear in some manner and have a great effect on the country later on. already bennet and livni are ready to consolidate that 2 posts into one. that will happen because the people who will give the power to the representatives to change the law will be 80-20 against the people who are in the post. the question is similar to the kosher certification of Hebrew national. I know some of the readers here feel the certifier is an am haaretz, but he isn't. you may not agree with his shitos but he is not an am haaretz and by his giving a hechsher to HN he is allowing the majority of American jews to eat kosher - not your standard of kosher but kosher nonetheless. thus, rabbi stav would have done a better job in this post than right wing rabbis. if I was asking a shaalah, I wouldn't go to rabbi stav before rabbis yosef or lau but the majority of the people in Israel would not follow that formula. as rar as lapid and his liberal agenda, this will only fan the flames of that agenda. rabbi stav might have been able to lessen the extreme charge that will ultimately take place. I know that rabbis lau and yosef will not be able to. this is similar to the way that gay marriage took off in the US. first we stop it and then they come back stronger than ever. why do we always have to underestimate the people? why do we have people who think the daati world is the majority? when will we realize that we need to save what we can before we lose it all? bottom line: article out of touch with the people of Israel almost as much as the right wing papers.
"been there said...already bennet and livni are ready to consolidate that 2 posts into one."
Right now Livni and Bennett have BIGGER headaches (Livno is off to Washington while Bennette is against the talks -- a real mixe up), with upcoming "peace talks" with the PLO set to start on Monday (29 July, 2013) -- funny how they run to have "peace talks" with the literally blood-thirsty Arabs, and even release the killers sitting jail for murdering Israelis, while Bennett, Livni and Co continue with their fulminations against the peaceful Charedim with NO mention of ANY peace talks and with added threats to throw Charedim into jail, just for wanting to learn Torah. Guess when Obama calls, they listen, but when the Rabbonim call they smirk. It's a topsy-turvy world we live in!
Sima with due respet to your comments, you talk about 80% of Israelies and Shas and Kashrut, a few facts.
1. Sephardim are a majority in Israel and a majority of those that are observant and traditional and they very mucgh respect their Rabbis.The majority have no problems with the Rabbinate at all. 2. Rav Ovadia is revered by the general Sephardi population even amongst those who ignore his rulings. 3. I assure you that Rav Yitzhak Yosef will be received with great honor, joy and respect in all Sephardi communities the world over. 4. You are of course talking rubbish about Kashrut, though I admit I am very pleased when I can buy a product with the Bet Yosef hecsher.
"RaP: True, who was to know that Metzger would become an utter disgrace, as he turned out to be corrupt and the elections of two new Chief Rabbis came none too soon."
He was already an utter disgrace due to the earlier scandals before he ran for chief rabbi. He was already an utter disgrace since he was known not to be a Torah scholar.
Ephraim said..."He was already an utter disgrace due to the earlier scandals before he ran for chief rabbi. He was already an utter disgrace since he was known not to be a Torah scholar."
It was not widespread information. But so what. The point is moot now. Metzger is gone now, he is history, he may even continue to face justified legal action for groping guys etc, so be it. Now hopefully on to the better and brighter things.
Let's not forget what to focus on. A historic first, not one but two new Chief Rabbis who come with supreme rabbinic "parental supervision" not just one "two-fer" but a double "two-fer" in the Chief Rabbinate posts something that has not happened in Israel before. And the important thing is the over-all context of it, with the all-out onslaught of the Lapid-Bennett-Netanyahu axis against the Charedim, and the cocky assumption that the Mizrachi ultra-leftwinger Rabbi Stav with his ultra-radical agendas should be should be a shoo-in. The LAST thing that Lapid and Bennett expected is to be outmaneuvered on this. For such masters of the new Israeli political universe, a lot of which involves keeping Charedi rabbis and their allies down and out of any and all positions of influence and power, this was a major set-back.
The fascinating thing is that Yair Lapid and Naftali Bennett only have themselves to blame because many people are frightened of them and their agenda, not just Charedim, as was reported in Arutz Sheva - Israel National News:
Member of voting board says religious Zionists chose hareidi-religious candidates. ‘Deep rift in religious-Zionist society.’
By Maayana Miskin 7/28/2013
The elections of two hareidi-religious rabbis as the new Chief Rabbis of Israel reflects a deep split within religious-Zionist society, reports Sarah Eliash, who sat on the 150-member board that elected the rabbis.
It was not only hareidi-religious board members who supported hareidi candidates over religious-Zionist candidates, she explained in an interview with Arutz Sheva. “Our people crossed [party] lines,” she said.
“There are those who didn’t vote for religious-Zionist parties in the elections, either,” she noted.
There was particular opposition to Rabbi David Stav, she said. “They accused him of all that’s wrong with the world,” she said in frustration.
Prior to the elections some rabbis called for Rabbi Stav to drop out of the race in order to add pressure on the government to allow Rabbi Yaakov Ariel to run, despite him being over the age limit of 70.
According to Eliash, that would not have helped. “I definitely think Rabbi Druckman recognized how problematic it was and wanted to unify the camp [by running Rabbi Ariel], but it was clear that if they ran Rabbi Ariel, then Rabbi Lau the father would have run, and he would have won,” she explained.
The results of the elections should lead to serious thought, she warned. “The religious-Zionist community was divided from within. That raises questions about our ability to keep working together,” she said.
“Our inability to put forth a candidate who would be accepted by the entire community reveals a deep rift within us. I hope that the Bayit Yehudi, which is just starting out, will learn from what happened and will work together,” she continued.
“If not,” she warned, “we will continue to lose.” "
The Rabbinate elections show the religious-Zionist community what happens if it fights the hareidi world, religious-Zionist rabbi says.
By Maayana Miskin 7/28/2013
Religious-Zionist rabbis lost to hareidi-religious rabbis for the two Chief Rabbi posts because religious-Zionist politicians tried to fight the hareidi world, according to Rabbi Mordechai Nagari, the religious Zionist Chief Rabbi of Maaleh Adumim.
“Unfortunately, the terrible stupidity of the religious-Zionist movement, which just this week supported the enlistment law, created a war here with the general public against the Torah scholars,” Rabbi Nagari told Arutz Sheva.
“Of course then the Torah scholars rose like lions to vote against religious Zionism, no matter who its candidates were,” he explained. “It was a war, one camp against the other.”
“The minute that the great Torah sages Rabbi Ovadia [Yosef] and Rabbi [Aharon Yehuda Lieb] Shteinman entered the picture [and forged a hareidi deal, ed], the battle was decided,” he said.
Every time the religious-Zionist community goes up against the hareidi community, it loses, Rabbi Nagari warned.
“We fought against the Torah, we got the Disengagement, we fought against the Torah again and we got the European boycott which hurts Judea and Samaria, and the rabbis’ loss [in the Rabbinate elections],” he argued.
“I advise Naftali Bennett not to talk about a national referendum. That’s not what will save us, what will protect the Land of Israel is protecting the Torah world,” he added.
Division within the religious-Zionist community also played a part in the elections failure, Rabbi Nagari said. “After all, Rabbi [David] Stav opposed the view of Torah espoused by normative religious Zionist rabbis. Rabbi [Haim] Druckman wanted to run Rabbi [Shlomo] Amar and Rabbi Ariel – it’s no wonder that this is the result,” he stated."
What has this to do with the title?
ReplyDeletelapid and bennet are not on the same page re the Rabbanut.
The previous "rabbi" metzger was also elected by the Haredi world.
These elections, cause problems for a lot of groups. Shas broke up the Ariel-Amar deal, or Stav-Amar - because ROY wanted his own son to get the highly paid job. Amar has not broken his connections with Shas.
Lau was the smallest talmid hacham in the entire race, he is a "kid" in rabbinic terms. Shapira is obviously a bigger talmid chacham.
And halachically it won't make much difference, the rabbanut will still do heter mechira etc. The Yosef family are very lenient in their halachic decisions, so again it is not so much a haredi victory.
To Eddie 1 of 2:
DeleteEddie you are jumping from point to point while not making any real point. Obviously we all know that the Chief rabbis, not matter who they are are part of and loyal to the State of Israel. Here are just some reactions:
"lapid and bennet are not on the same page re the Rabbanut."
RaP: Indeed, As far as Lapid goes he does not need rabbis in his life. He banned them from joining the coalition and his mantra is that he wants them out, out, out. While Bennett wants people like Rabbi Stav who will okay easy conversions, accept gays, accept the Reform and Conservatives, work for civil marriage because he is more liberal than anyone in the Mizrachi even. For now, having Israeli (mis-)education minister Rabbi Shai Piron in power is enough, but having Rabbi Stav in the mix as well would be overloading the system with ultra-liberals with their own reformist agendas. Keeping the status quo was not what was expected by Bennett and Lapid and that will now be the job of the new relatively Charedi Chief Rabbis.
"The previous "rabbi" metzger was also elected by the Haredi world."
RaP: True, who was to know that Metzger would become an utter disgrace, as he turned out to be corrupt and the elections of two new Chief Rabbis came none too soon. Rabbi Yisrael Meir Lau was in many the stand-in de facto substitute for Metzger, but that Rabbi David Lau is in, it means that the senior Rabbi Lau's influence will grow.
"These elections, cause problems for a lot of groups. Shas broke up the Ariel-Amar deal, or Stav-Amar - because ROY wanted his own son to get the highly paid job. Amar has not broken his connections with Shas."
RaP: What are these problems? Once Rav Ovadia Yosef makes up his mind and says what he wants, it is not negotiable, unless you are a gadol like him who take him on, as some did in the past. But now it will be Rav Ovadia Yosef's voice and decisions that will be in place since his son the new Chief Rabbi will not make a move without his father. Maybe things will even improve.
To Eddie 2 of 2:
Delete"Lau was the smallest talmid hacham in the entire race, he is a "kid" in rabbinic terms. Shapira is obviously a bigger talmid chacham."
RaP: Nothing to do with anything. First of all Rabbi David Lau is born in 1966, that makes him 46, not a "kid" and he is very much part of the current adult generation in Israel. He is not 17 like Rebbe Elazar in the Hagada, who even then was respected. The younger Lau will be effective because he is in tune with the modern Israeli mentality. He is me'urav bein habrios The the all-powerful media, Internet and Facebook culture is something he is very comfortable with and knows a lot about. He is more than enough learned to deal with anything in Israel especially as he will NOT be making a move without his father, the current Chief Rabbi of Tel Avid and former Chief Rabbi Rabbi Yisrael Meir Lau. So all in all, the two father and son teams, a special event in Israel's history, will prove to be very strong. It's the ultimate rabbinic "two-fer" deal that cannot lose if it plays its cards right, and it seems they will. The Laus are beloved and respected by Ashkenazim and the Yosef family is the crown of Sefardim in Israel.
"And halachically it won't make much difference, the rabbanut will still do heter mechira etc. The Yosef family are very lenient in their halachic decisions, so again it is not so much a haredi victory."
RaP: Agreed, but you are avoiding the real picture in front of us, of an Israel dominated by LaVaN -- Lapid, Bennett, Netanyau who would have wanted more pliant and compliant rabbis they could twist around their pinkies and who have launched an anti-religious war against Charedim as they simultaneously strike out for "peace" with the PLO (neat trick don't you think?) and in that context the election of two new Chief Rabbis from two of the most influential rabbinic families that are involved in Israeli political and rabbinical life, is a set-back for the LaVaN axis that cannot be denied.
I am sorry RAP, I totally disagree with you.
DeleteMain points:
R Stav is not gay/reform friendly. This is just fiction that you are buying into. he is modern, and he heads an institute that talks about modern halacha.
Haredi reactionaries are very much herd mentality - they call this one nazi, the other amalek etc etc.
Some examples to illustrate haredi insanity:
In the 60s, R Unterman was modern and Zionist, and was not loved by haredim. When R Goren came along, suddenly the haredi world was backing Unterman.
- The haredi opposition to R Goren made a whole song and dance about how treif he is, and that he makes up halacha on geirus. Irony of ironies, 40 years later, the same haredi world did exactly the same dirty trick which R Goren did, and annulled thousands of conversions. The interesting thing is r Yosef opposed it now as he did 40 years prior - R Yosef being consistent.
RAP "who was to know that Metzger would become an utter disgrace, "
Everyoen knew, there was so much filth flying around before Metzger was elected. But the same principle applied then. He was then running agasint the DL candidate R Ariel. R Ariel is a massive gadol. I knwo he isnt widely known, even in the MO world, but if you go to his shiur or read his works, you will see how great he is.
The problem is that Haredim do not want MO Rabbis around. it is as simple as that. I suppose that even if R Soloveithik was alive and he did run for the position, the haredim wouldn't want him there.
R Avraham Shapira was also a great posek, and he was also with RMF. Still the haredim didnt want him in.
Now, R Lau junior is really a kid - to be Chief rabbi - it's a joke. He is not a Rosh yeshiva, just a little guy from a small town, who has proteksia - which is Hebrew for having the right connections.
If you speak of LAVAN, then you are making a mistake.
Firstly, Bennett,and the DL people are opposed to PLO, so get yoru facts straight.
Second, it was rav Shach in the 80s who was talking about land for peace, and this was with the PLO, not Snow white. B'H R' Shach did teshuva, however, the damaged he had done already reached Oslo.
Now, Bibi, can call him a scoundrel, and the terrorist release is disgusting. however, there is a reason for this - it is most likely to do with Iran. Thsi has not been publicly stated, but you need to read between the lines.
USA has certain weaponry, bombs etc, that can penetrate the undergound iranian sites. The are like mini atom bombs, but made of conventional explosives.
So a deal has msot likely been made between Bibi and Kerry.
Remember when we had kings, they had to do deals with the goyim, like SOlomon made, giving some cities to hiram.
On a personal level, I have met R Yosef junior, and he is a fine talmid hacham. I may have preferred Eliayhu, but c'est la vie.
R & P: You are ignoring the 80% of Israelis who need to & are required to use the Rabbanut, its Kashrut and Beis Din services. How are they helped with the new twosome?
DeleteReply ONE to Eddie:
DeleteEddie said..."I am sorry RAP, I totally disagree with you. Main points:
R Stav is not gay/reform friendly. This is just fiction that you are buying into. he is modern, and he heads an institute that talks about modern halacha. Haredi reactionaries are very much herd mentality - they call this one nazi, the other amalek etc etc."
RaP: Please understand my points in the context of Rabbi Stav being supported by Bennett with the concurrence of Bennett's ally Yair Lapid. In that context Rabbi Stav is correctly viewed as ready to approve the full agenda of Bennett and Lapid in whatever way when the time would come. That is the perception and it is not unjustified. Thus Lapid, as connected to Bennett in effect helped to jinx and shoot down Rabbi Stav's chances. There was a palpable fear that Rabbi Stav would be elected. There is no reason to think otherwise. Not just Charedim are prone to herd mentality, everyone is, including you and me because those are unconscious forces that it takes a lot of awareness and insight to resist and decide if it is worth going against whatever "herd" we belong to as individuals. Even to talk the way you do is part of a certain type of herd. Yes, Charedim are prone to their type of hyperbole but so are ultra-liberals who have no shame in labeling their opponents with all sorts of nasty names.
"Some examples to illustrate haredi insanity: In the 60s, R Unterman was modern and Zionist, and was not loved by haredim. When R Goren came along, suddenly the haredi world was backing Unterman."
RaP: Rav Unterman z"l was from a bygone age, closer to the 19th or even 18th century than to modern times. He had been a Rov in the UK and he was a combo of many qualities that old-time rabbonim had (if you ever met such types in the olden, olden days, they were fine men, non-confrontational and very accepting of all types of Jews and of all types people -- they were very beloved) that is extinct today. Please do not make him sound as if he was a "Bnai Akiva" boy and a raving follower of Herzl which he wasn't. He was very much a part of that bygone age when ideological lines were not so sharp and people and rabbis could belong to different camps at the same time. Goren was more complex because he was very aggressive and feisty. I met him and saw him in action years ago when he was Chief Rabbi. A total dynamo and a total "vilda illui" which he was! Everyone agrees he did marvels as the first Israel Defense Forces' Chief Rabbi, but he got in over his head when he became Israel's Chief Rabbi, compared to the well-mannered and calming personalities of Rav Kook, Rav Herzog and Rav Unterman, on the other hand Goren was a "wild man" and he made the mistake of his life when he tried to matir mamzerim and that is when he got shot down by Rav Moshe Feinstein who made public protest against him in America from which Goren's reputation never recovered in the world of serious Halacha. It was not a political game, it was a very serious matter and Rav Moshe Feinstein finally put the brakes on Goren's plans.
Reply TWO to Eddie:
DeleteEddie said..."- The haredi opposition to R Goren made a whole song and dance about how treif he is, and that he makes up halacha on geirus. Irony of ironies, 40 years later, the same haredi world did exactly the same dirty trick which R Goren did, and annulled thousands of conversions. The interesting thing is r Yosef opposed it now as he did 40 years prior - R Yosef being consistent."
RaP: I beg to disagree. There is no comparison between what happened in Goren's time and what happened later. First of all, please don't make it sound like the Charedi world is standing around with an "agenda" and "hit list" to get back at anyone. It is too fractured and and has a short memory as much as any group does. It sounds almost like "blaming" the Jews of today for the death of Jesus 2,000 years ago! First of all Goren annulled a JEWISH MARRIAGE (not just issues of conversion) with the intent of allowing someone to remarry.
This is something that Rav Moshe Feinstein also did and he has teshuvos on it, and is still done today, to see if prior marriages were performed al pi Halacha but what Goren did was try to "sneak one by the censors" so to speak but he was caught red-handed and roundly HALACHICALLY disproven and rebuked for trying to be matir mamzerim.
On the other hand the case "40 years later" you refer to was done by Rav Sherman (guided by Rav Elyashiv) who annulled the conversions of RZ scholar Rav Drukman and it was discussed on this blog in detail (I opposed a blanket annulment by Rav Sherman of Rav Drukman's conversions because perhaps some of them were in fact good conversions. There should not have been a blanket ruling but rather the hard road should have been taken of reviewing each and every case on its own merits) but Rav Elyashiv supported Rav Sherman and that was that.
The State of Israel and Religious Zionist rabbis nevertheless recognize Rav Drukman's conversions while the Charedi world does not. But this is not news, because the Charedi world does not recognize even INDIVIDUAL conversions performed by many Modern Orthodox and Religious Zionist rabbinates and will require a second geirus or a geirus lechumra. But the point is you must not mix apples and oranges. The case with Goren involved MAMZEIRUS and it sunk his career while the latter-day struggle is over GEIRUS and Rav Drukman's career is still intact.
Reply THREE to Eddie:
DeleteEddie said..."RAP "who was to know that Metzger would become an utter disgrace, "
Everyoen knew, there was so much filth flying around before Metzger was elected. But the same principle applied then. He was then running agasint the DL candidate R Ariel. R Ariel is a massive gadol. I knwo he isnt widely known, even in the MO world, but if you go to his shiur or read his works, you will see how great he is."
RaP: You say "everyone knew" but the truth is "everyone" did not know. As time went on and Metzger became better known then "everyone" was able to start putting allegations from the past together that then started to get stronger and stronger and by the the time his term was up the guy was under house arrest. Such is the human condition. Israel is a corrupt place where its presidents, prime minsters and defense ministers are forced to resign over fraud, sex, and political scandals too numerous to mention. Rabbi too are not immune and it was a mistake to nominate Metzger. But who knows what the exact plitics and deal-making invoilved at the time was all about. It is not a reason to smear all Charedim for it either. How much of a real Charedi are Israel's chief rabbis in any case? They are basically Israeli rabbis with friendly ties to the Charedi world. They would not be interchangeable with members or rabbis sitting on the Agudat Yisrael or DeGel HaTorah Mo'etzes. Yes, the are all sorts of saintly scholars in all the camps. the are even nice secular Jews and leaders who are not trouble makers and would do no harm to anyone. But as we know, politics is a rough and tumble place and if you are real tzadik you would not be in politics of any sort and running for any sorts of offices but rather rather humbly minding your won business and not running around waving your banner and tooting your own horn. This goes for Charedi, MO and secular alike.
But still, let us not get of the main point here, and that is that the likes of Yair Lapid and Naftali Bennet are now manning the ship of state and with every move and statement they make, they create counter-moves and developments that they cannot control and that will come back to haunt them in ways that they had never dreamed of and had never intended.
And now that reality is that two new Cheif rabbis are in place and both are connected to their well-known fathers who had also been Chief Rabbis and who know all the ins and outs and the ropes of the job. In the case of the two Laus they are the ultimate positive PR coup (barring anything unforeseen) and they are and will be loved since Rav Lau senior was probably the most popular Cheif Rabbi second only to Rav A.Y. Kook. And the two Yosefs are the ultimate rabbinic "power couple" because Rav Ovadia Yosef is the probably the most powerful and feared rabbi in Israel today, he even has international recognition and the fact that his son and protege is now the new Chief Rabbi incalculably magnifies his father's reach and power to the nth degree. These are NOT results that either Naftali Bennett or Yair Lapid wanted or counted on, but they only have themselves to blame for frightening everyone into a corner with this as the result.
Reply FOUR to Eddie:
DeleteEddie said..."The problem is that Haredim do not want MO Rabbis around. it is as simple as that. I suppose that even if R Soloveithik was alive and he did run for the position, the haredim wouldn't want him there. R Avraham Shapira was also a great posek, and he was also with RMF. Still the haredim didnt want him in."
RaP: Um, and the MOs and RZs don't want Charedim either. Not sure which group is more intolerant. I have been among both groups many times and there is no monopoly on prejudice and bad middos in any group. Humans are humans and one will always find dislike for outsiders in any group. So please don't make it sound like Charedim have a monopoly on xenophobia.
The MOs and RZs have their agenda and they are very tied in with secular groups both in and out of Israel. But it is a struggle, and basically the Charedim are winning it via huge population growth. If MOs and RZ's would have as many kids as the Charedim they could also come with their numbers against the Charedim. So far though, all over Israel, there is room for all groups, even for agnostics like Yair Lapid.
Rav JB Soloveitchik was a complex man and like many rabbonim from his era he belonged to many worlds. He was once part of the Charedi Agudas Yisroel in America and was on its Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah but he eventually felt he had a mission to build up the newer American RCA and the thousands of rabbis he was educating and ordaining through YU. In his day he was in fact offered the Chief Rabbinate of Israel by Ben Gurion but turned it down. Rav Soloveitchik, while part of the American Mizrachi held strong "anti-Zionist" views til the end. He did NOT rubber-stamp and approve everything the Israeli government did.
Rav Shapira was a good kind man, a worthy Rosh Yeshiva but most people agreed he did not have the tough temperament to be a rov let alone the Chief Rabbi of Israel. It is not enough to be a "santa claus-type" with illusory "goodies" and a "ho-ho-ho" for everyone! Being a rosh yeshiva does not automatically qualify anyone to be a rov or a posek or anything else such as shochet, sofer, chazan, etc. In today's world people think that a rosh yeshiva is like a "wizard of oz" who can do anything, but that is just plain false.
That is why it is important that the Chief Rabbinate be manned by people who can fulfill their roles as rabbis and not as "roshei yeshiva" -- and it is why I am optimistic about Rabbi David Lau he is a practical rabbi suited to modern issues.
Rabbi Yitzchak Yosef is a man who wears many hats, among them as head of a yeshiva he founded, so it remains to be seen if he can adjust to the role of being a "people's rabbi" of the State of Israel that is so much part of what the "job description" requires.
But in either case, whatever they lack can be backed up by their fathers, and whatever they have can be magnified by their fathers. So it is a win-win situation.
Reply FIVE to Eddie:
DeleteEddie said..."Now, R Lau junior is really a kid - to be Chief rabbi - it's a joke. He is not a Rosh yeshiva, just a little guy from a small town, who has proteksia - which is Hebrew for having the right connections."
RaP: Totally disagree. He ius born in 1966 and he is 46. Not a "baby" at all. He comes from a dynasty of rabbis, and he is the sone of one of the most famous and beloved rabbis not just in Israel but around the world. The Lau name is GOLD, pure and simple and you can bank on it, or take it to teh bank and you will not be disappointed.
Sure everything in Israel is about protektzia, that is not a chiddush -- the question is always what are you going to use your protektzia for and will it hurt or harm the you and the Jewish people and the State of Israel? And in this case it is clear that Rabbi David Lau will please everyone. He has NOT lived in the ivory towers of the Talmudists while at the same he knows all about and is a Talmudic scholar himself.
This is 2013 we are in, and not 50 years ago where there were still great names around. Today there are few great men, and even fewer great scholars. But let the scholars remain scholars and train the next generation of scholars or just learn Torah Lishmah. The job of Chieff Rabbi requires an entirely different PRACTICAL skill-set and Rabbi David Lau has it because he learned everything he needs to know for the job from his father who passed with flying colors and too bad that someone like like Rav Yisrael Meir Lau could not be Chief Rabbi for life then the scandals of Metzger could have been avoided and positive things could have been achieved.
But this a wonderful course correction and im yirtzeh Hashem Rabbi David lLau will bring much-needed relief and improvement to dealing with the practical things that need to be dealt with. You know in the olden days, when they gave semicha to American Charedi rabbis they would joke that all you needed was your rabbinical diploma and Rav Moshe Feinstein's telephone number to deal with any shaylos, and in the case of Rabbi David Lau he has a much much more than that going for him! He is wonderful 46 year old "young" rabbi.
Reply SIX (final) to Eddie:
DeleteEddie said..."If you speak of LAVAN, then you are making a mistake. Firstly, Bennett,and the DL people are opposed to PLO, so get yoru facts straight."
RaP: Let's see Bennet do something NOW about the concessions that Israel is about to make to the PLO all over again, what is Bennett saying and DOING RIGHT NOW?? Nothing! He is a going along with the appeasement of the PLO and while he gives lip-service to the right wing, he is de facto like any Israeli left-winger who deludes themselves to think that by making concessions they will bring "peace" -- This did not happen when Ehud Barak pulled out of Lebanon and it did not happen when Arik Sharon pulled out of the Gaza Strip and it did not happen when Netanyahu pulled out of Hebron and it will never happen until the mashiach comes.
"Second, it was rav Shach in the 80s who was talking about land for peace, and this was with the PLO, not Snow white."
RaP: He said that exact thing "land for peace"? What are YOU talking about?
"B'H R' Shach did teshuva, however, the damaged he had done already reached Oslo."
RaP: Good joke, that Rav Shach "did teshuva" -- now I know you have been watching too many Disney films like "Snow White"! And you are now "blaming" Rav Shach for the Oslo Process?! Wow? Haven't you heard about how Saudi and Kuwaiti-loving President George Bush the First and his notorious Secretary of State James Baker who said "F_ _ _ the Jews" dragged tough-guy Israeli PM to the Madrid Conference before Oslo, and that before all that it was tough man Menachem Begin (the same one who "annexed" the Golan Heights) gave away the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt at the Camp David accords way back, was that also Rav Shach's fault? Get real please!
Rav Shach was no push-over and was a hard realist. He knew politics better than any Machiavelli as he pushed the Charedim into the Israeli government in 1976 with the election of Begin giving him the votes to push out Labor for the first time in Israel's history and extracted concessions in return that lasted until recent times. He created DURABLE political parties in Israel (SHAS and Degel HaTorah) out of thin air. He was a stupendous scholar but a VERY humble man. He was committed to EMES pure and simple and was NOT afraid to speak his mind to say the least. He wanted the Jews in Israel to be SAFE. He did NOT say that Israel must give back the Golan Heights poof just like that (he was not crazy and he was not from Neturei Karta), but he was against antagonizing the world by announcing meaningless "annexations" that would not be recognized by the international community and would just needlessly enrage the gentiles. Basically he was telling Begin to stop waving the flag and rattling sabers. Very smart political advice in that neck of the woods.
"Now, Bibi, can call him a scoundrel, and the terrorist release is disgusting. however, there is a reason for this - it is most likely to do with Iran. This has not been publicly stated, but you need to read between the lines..."
RaP: This matter is now "sub judice" as they say, no one on the outside really knows what's going on that's for sure, so let's see what happens.
"On a personal level, I have met R Yosef junior, and he is a fine talmid hacham. I may have preferred Eliayhu, but c'est la vie."
RaP: See my responses about this above. The 150 electors have spoken and the candidates have been chosen. Let's see what happens from here on forth. Ten years is a long time. But if used right it can be a golden opportunity to achieve amazing things to help Klal Yisrael and the State of Israel.
RAP, too many response from you that I can answer.
DeleteR Shach was attacking all the institutions of RZ and Z. The IDF, the settlers, the hesder yeshivas, the Gush Emunim. he was attacking those who did not want to trade land for "peace". Of course, his daas torah meant that his Chazaka is infallible , eg like the one that there are no jewish gays.
So if he siad you can trade land for peace, it means that the negotiations with the PLo would be with Snow white (lavan?).
Now reality bankrupted r Shach, just as it did with R Kotler, R Wasserman, R Elyashiv, and the satmar rebbe.
R Shach spent his last days simply reading RZ literature from R Goren (who was his senior in terms of learning). Thus he ended declaring it is assur to return Holy land won by miracles to terrorists. Duhh..
Simialrly, R Elyashiv, who was so agasint the Langer case, ended up bankrupt, by backing his poodle D' Sherman, in mattiring thousands of converts, and creating hundreds or maybe thousands of mamzerim.
R Wasserman was bankrupt by tearing up visas to Eretz Yisrael, and condemning his follwoers to die in the Shoah.
R Kotler, was also bankrupt by calling those visas "asher yatzar" paper, and he ended up with his own Vaad hatzoloh, which was in the business of chasing such "paper", and having to break shabbos for it.
By bankrupt, i mean morally and halachically bankrupt - doing what they themselves once caleld evil, or coming round to the reality of their own short sitedness.
Response ONE to Eddie @ July 30, 2013 at 2:49 PM
DeleteI am sticking to points of today while you are harping back to yester-years and creating your own revisionist view of Jewish history that has only one strong theme and premise, that anything and everything great Charedi leaders did or do is negative and irredeemable and atrocious (to say the least) while your own chosen heroes in the Modern Orthodox-Religious Zionist world are "wonderful" and they have no flaws that you can cite or admit to. You keep on pinning blame for latter-day events on yesterday's Charedi leaders while you bemoan that MO-RZ leaders are not given more recognition in the Charedi world of all places.
It is very hard to have reasonable discussion under such conditions.
Back to the topic of Yair Lapid's and Naftali Bennett's agenda, they have just been handed a big slap in the face by someone who is more realistic and mature than they are, Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon, who is smart enough to know that now is not the time to be fighting Charedim. Yaalon has always been consistent about this and has had major blow-out arguments with his rival in the government ex-Shin Bet head and ally (brain?) of Yair Lapid, MInister of "Science and Technology" (better yet: Next to Lapid he is the "Associate Minister of anti-Charedi Threats, Harassment & Incitement") who has the distinction of having the notorious Perry Committee/Commission named in his "honor" (charged with equalizing the burden of military service in Israel -- what does that have to do with his "science and technology" portfolio?) Yaakov Peri of Yesh Atid who wants to induce a civil war against the Charedim while Yaalon has been fighting him tooth and nail. Perri, Lapid, Bennett and Netanyahu want to openly and brutally break the Charedim, while Yaalon knows that this cannot be done by force at any rate, one must use a kinder and gentler approach to woo the Charedim into joining the state, or as my grandmother used to say it is easier to catch bees with honey than with vinegar:
Arutz Sheva -- Israel National News:
"Ya'alon Defers Conscription of Hundreds of Haredim
Defense Minister defers conscription of hundreds of hareidi yeshiva students, due to ongoing deliberations over enlistment.
By Rina Tzvi
7/30/2013
Defense Minister Moshe (Bogie) Ya'alon has decided to defer the conscription of hundreds of orthodox yeshiva students until at least December, due to the ongoing deliberations regarding Israel’s new draft-reform bill.
The enlistment of five hundred and sixty yeshiva students, set to be drafted into the Israel Defense Forces in August, has been delayed, Attorney-General Yehuda Weinstein said, announcing the decision.
Yaalon had ordered that deferral letters be mailed on August 6 absent a court order to the contrary.
In February 2012 the High Court of Justice ruled that the exemption of ultra-orthodox yeshiva students from serving in the military was unconstitutional, tasking the government with drafting a new law."
Response TWO to Eddie @ July 30, 2013 at 2:49 PM
DeleteEddie said..."R Shach was attacking all the institutions of RZ and Z. The IDF, the settlers, the hesder yeshivas, the Gush Emunim. he was attacking those who did not want to trade land for "peace". Of course, his daas torah meant that his Chazaka is infallible , eg like the one that there are no jewish gays. So if he siad you can trade land for peace, it means that the negotiations with the PLo would be with Snow white (lavan?)."
RaP: Most of the things you mention were new at that time, the Charedi world was small, and a formulation of an opinion, a "hashkofa" on the issues of day was required -- that is what a true manhig beyisroel does. The Gush Emunim movement only started after Israel conquered the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan in the Six Day War of 1967, when the State of Israel was only NINETEEN years old. And Rav Shach was big enough to express learned opinions to both guide his relatively small group of followers (no doubt many wondered should they the Gush people -- and by the way, many did de facto by moving into areas around Yerushalyim added by Mayor Teddy Kolek to build new neighborhoods conquered by the IDF) and also try to insert his views into the broader debate. "Land for Peace" was actually born in the UN (where else) as the Six Day War fall-out culminated in (from Wikipedia:) UN Resolution 242 of 22 November 1967 adopted unanimously: '...sponsored by British ambassador Lord Caradon and was one of five drafts under consideration. The preamble refers to the 'inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in the Middle East in which every State in the area can live in security.'" Note it was the likes of Lord Caradon who came up with the Land For Peace" idea long before Rav Shach even said a word about it or probably even knew about it.
"Now reality bankrupted r Shach, just as it did with R Kotler, R Wasserman, R Elyashiv, and the satmar rebbe."
RaP: What "reality" is that? You seem to be bundling people from all over to suit your own untenable argument that seems to be based on one point only; "Charedi leaders are hopeless and stupid" while you would have had your leaders do better? Did they? Have you read Ben Hecht's book PERFIDY? Find yourself a copy and read it to see how Zionist leaders and Reform rabbis contributed to the Holocaust and how it was covered up, it makes your accusations against Charedi leaders look like child's play.
"R Shach spent his last days simply reading RZ literature from R Goren"
RaP: Who told you this? Rav Shach had his own sources, such as his own son Ephraim who was a RZ PhD and provided his father with enough information to make informed political moves.
"R Goren (who was his senior in terms of learning)."
RaP: Really? How do you know this? It's NOT enough to "know" how to learn, it also what you do with your skills and how you become known in the world of Torah.
"Thus he ended declaring it is assur to return Holy land won by miracles to terrorists. Duhh.."
RaP: Again, when did this happen? In any case the political situation after the Six Day War in 1967 was not the same as the political situation at the time of Rav Shach died in 2001. Also I am not sure if one can assume that everything from a man of 100+ is considered 100% reliably compos mentis. So one needs to be very careful when declaring what Rav Shach said or held of did not hold in sweeping terms.
Response THREE (FINAL) to Eddie @ July 30, 2013 at 2:49 PM
Delete"Simialrly, R Elyashiv, who was so agasint the Langer case, ended up bankrupt, by backing his poodle D' Sherman, in mattiring thousands of converts, and creating hundreds or maybe thousands of mamzerim."
RaP: What are you talking about? Rav Sherman PASSULED (ANNULED) all of Rav Drukman's converts. And no, Rav Sherman was no poodle and Rav Elyashiv was fully entitled to push for that because once you open the flood-gates it will allow the 300,000+ GOYIM from the former USSR to just claim they are "Jewish" with easy rubber-stamp fake and fraudulent "conversions" run by the secular State of Israel, and that is what Rav Elyashiv stopped, the floodgates of false conversions from opening.
"R Wasserman was bankrupt by tearing up visas to Eretz Yisrael, and condemning his follwoers to die in the Shoah."
RaP: I would not sit in judgment of Rav Wasserman hy"d if I were you and I would check out all the facts first. What visas did he tear up and when? The majority of Rabbonim in Europe were fighting the Haskalah in Europe and like everyone else did not foresee the Holocaust. To blame them is nothing less than a blood libel. Try blaming the secular leaders who colluded with the British and the Nazis to keep out frum Jews from Palestine. It was a terrible time for the Jewish people and it is ridiculous to "blame" anyone with fake "20-20 hindsight"!
"R Kotler, was also bankrupt by calling those visas "asher yatzar" paper, and he ended up with his own Vaad hatzoloh, which was in the business of chasing such "paper", and having to break shabbos for it."
RaP: You play fast and loose with facts and reality. The Vaad Hatzola PRECEDED Rav Aharon Kotler's arrival in America. They were in fact the ones who brought him out to America and he then became a leader in it. There was Rav Lazer Silver, Rav Rav Shlomo Heiman, Rav Avrohom Kalmanowitz, the latter sent money to his yeshiva that had landed in Shanghai. The Vaad did good work during the war and after the war. Not sure what your problem is, but for PIKUACH NEFESH the Halacha is clear that one MUST be "mechalel" Shabbos because of the principle "pikuach nefesh doche es hashabbos"!
"By bankrupt, i mean morally and halachically bankrupt - doing what they themselves once caleld evil, or coming round to the reality of their own short sitedness."
RaP: You are clearly and openly basically making all this stuff up to suit your own ends and it's not quite clear what your own motives and why do it so consistently? Are you paid to do this by anyone by the way? It's just very confusing and it would help if you could show some OBJECTIVITY instead of your constant SUBJECTIVE attacks against anything you deem to be "too Charedi" to your liking.
Rap 1) I never supported Benent/lapid on the enlistment of the haredim. Since you falsely claimed that Bennet is now supporting the PLO, I had to make facts clear, that he is not. My personal take on hareid enlistment, is to reach an arrangement as was done previosuly, eg nahal. In any case, the IDF is cutting back it staff, so the whole idea today is moot. If, chas v'shalom there was a need for more soldiers, then it might become necessary to enlist more people.
Delete2) You are either in denial of history or simply evading my points.
So let us look at some cases.
R Wasserman, who was truly a giant in Torah, no question about that - opposed leaving Europe during the war, and prevented his students from doing so. He himself managed to get out, but perhaps due to his own guilt, returned to be with his flock. Are you saying this was a shinign example of a manhig with daas torah, or was it a total lapse of reason, morality, and false ideology mixed with wwashy halacha? Since, in practical terms terms, he was responsible for the fate of those he could have saved.
R Kotler actually smelled the coffee, but this was in America. The point about shabbes, was that there were still gedolim , like the previous Lubavitcher rebbe, satmar rebbe, who were mocking his efforts to save lives. Perhaps in haredi circles, none of this is important, they just give the censored version that the satmar rebbe weeped at r Kotler's funeral, and all was Ok.
3) R' Shach obviously had no halachic basis for his attacks on RZ , Gush emunim, just like r Elyashiv had no basis on his atatcks on R Goren. As R Henkin said, these were political not halachic attacks.
The statement I quoted from r shach was around the time of Oslo, so around '93. This was a purely Gush Emunim type statement. the more likely reason for his hostilty, was that his only son, Ephraim, was taken by the RZ world, and deprived him of a successor as a Rosh Yeshiva. Thus his hatred to the RZ movement.
Similarly, R Elyashiv left the world of RZ and Joined the haredi world, which was perfectly fine, but he needed to show that his "geirus" was l'shem hareidus, so he had an easy victim in R goren.
Had he really believed that a giur cannot be annulled, then his protoge r sherman would have suffered the same fate as R Goren did. However, he was cheered when he spoke at EJF meetings.
Now, perfidy, shmerfidy, you are comparing religious leaders to secular bureaucrats. First read this
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/04/guest-post-kasz.html
Next, on the hand, the Weissmandl types are saying that HAD the zionsits colalborated witht he nazis, they coudl have saved more lives. Yet, kastner, who did, and saed lives including the satmar revve, was called a murderer.
So why does perfidy not apply to weissmandl?
More hypocrisy.
When Eddie @ July 31, 2013 at 12:46 PM says things like"Now, perfidy, shmerfidy, you are comparing religious leaders to secular bureaucrats. First read this
Deletehttp://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/04/guest-post-kasz.html" what type of person says "perfidy shmerfidy"????? It seems that he may as well be the twin carbon copy of Shmarya the anti-Charedi crusader of that blog who only knows how to find with Charedim and NO ONE ELSE. As if the rest of the world is a perfect place but even the greatest Charedi rabbi can never redeem himself/ How sad is that!.
Eddie, whoever you are wherever you are for whatever reason you are doing this: You fly around and twist facts like a ding-bat and it's hard to debate someone who is all over the place. So you think Goren is a hero but Rav Elyashiv, Rav Shach, Rav Aron Kotler, the Stamar ruv, Lubavitch, and Rav Elchanan Wasserman hy"d are all deranged losers??? Have they done even an ounce of good? Is the glass only half empty? How can anyone have a balanced discussion with you when you carry on so?
Just on a small point to show how off you are. Rav Elyashiv was never a "RZ" he was a Yerushalmi rov who worked for the Bais Din of Yerushalayim as a dayan for a state salary in the days when there was less ideological categorization. He left when he felt that he could no longer "vote his conscience" -- proof that there is not a shred of RZ in him, are any of his many children RZ? How about his son in law Rav Kanievsky is he a RZ too? What are you saying. Having ahavas Yisroel is not automatically a sign of being a RZ. You are just carrying on now.
Your rash word that are poor excuses for reasoned arguments have more holes in them than rotting swiss cheese. You just jumble up information and throw things around in mad bomber style. It is not a way of having a reasoned debate. It is a cut throat approach and you better cut it out soon.
In agreement with EDDIE.
ReplyDeleteThe better & more worthy choice was Harav Yakov Shapiro, a talmid chachem who was accepted by the Charedi & DL world. Rav Lau is a yingele with limited experience. Rav Shapiro would have been a more fit uniter for Israeli Klal Yisroel, yet the UTJ world is still in fear of anything that has a scent of Tziunut. These 2 choices will set into motion a vote for future Chief Rabbis as ONE CANDIDATE only.
Shmittah and Kashrus will stay stagnant without any needed changes and the majority of Israeli are the losers... what a shame!!
I think this letter correctly portrays the view of the uneducated daati world. The person writing it has no idea of the relevance of the post of chief rabbi nor does he wish to acknowledge that this rabbi will have to interact with the irreligious as well. I am not a rabbi stav fan, but the country - sorry state - would do better with such a person than rabbis yosef and lau. I am not saying that rabbis yosef and lau are not talmidei chachomim. I believe they are but they are interested in a faction that doesn't care about the post they are assuming. nothing they say or do will really make a difference to the world they come from. on the other hand, their strict adherence to the torah understanding they have will be extremely detrimental to the relations between the daati leumi and everyone else. this will allow the post to disappear in some manner and have a great effect on the country later on. already bennet and livni are ready to consolidate that 2 posts into one. that will happen because the people who will give the power to the representatives to change the law will be 80-20 against the people who are in the post. the question is similar to the kosher certification of Hebrew national. I know some of the readers here feel the certifier is an am haaretz, but he isn't. you may not agree with his shitos but he is not an am haaretz and by his giving a hechsher to HN he is allowing the majority of American jews to eat kosher - not your standard of kosher but kosher nonetheless. thus, rabbi stav would have done a better job in this post than right wing rabbis. if I was asking a shaalah, I wouldn't go to rabbi stav before rabbis yosef or lau but the majority of the people in Israel would not follow that formula. as rar as lapid and his liberal agenda, this will only fan the flames of that agenda. rabbi stav might have been able to lessen the extreme charge that will ultimately take place. I know that rabbis lau and yosef will not be able to. this is similar to the way that gay marriage took off in the US. first we stop it and then they come back stronger than ever. why do we always have to underestimate the people? why do we have people who think the daati world is the majority? when will we realize that we need to save what we can before we lose it all? bottom line: article out of touch with the people of Israel almost as much as the right wing papers.
ReplyDeletewhen will we realize that we need to save what we can before we lose it all?
DeleteThis axiom needs further discussion for its accuracy...
"been there said...already bennet and livni are ready to consolidate that 2 posts into one."
ReplyDeleteRight now Livni and Bennett have BIGGER headaches (Livno is off to Washington while Bennette is against the talks -- a real mixe up), with upcoming "peace talks" with the PLO set to start on Monday (29 July, 2013) -- funny how they run to have "peace talks" with the literally blood-thirsty Arabs, and even release the killers sitting jail for murdering Israelis, while Bennett, Livni and Co continue with their fulminations against the peaceful Charedim with NO mention of ANY peace talks and with added threats to throw Charedim into jail, just for wanting to learn Torah. Guess when Obama calls, they listen, but when the Rabbonim call they smirk. It's a topsy-turvy world we live in!
"but when the Rabbonim call they smirk" - Don't recall any Rabbonim calling!?!?
ReplyDelete"yoni said..."but when the Rabbonim call they smirk" - Don't recall any Rabbonim calling!?!?"
DeleteYou obviously don't get figurative speech either.
so again it is not so much a haredi victory.
ReplyDeleteit is a victory in terms of who gets the jobs.
SHAS runs and owns the Kashrut in Israel and has closed off all options for others, especially women mashgichim. It is nepotism at its WORSE.
DeleteSima with due respet to your comments, you talk about 80% of Israelies and Shas and Kashrut, a few facts.
Delete1. Sephardim are a majority in Israel and a majority of those that are observant and traditional and they very mucgh respect their Rabbis.The majority have no problems with the Rabbinate at all.
2. Rav Ovadia is revered by the general Sephardi population even amongst those who ignore his rulings.
3. I assure you that Rav Yitzhak Yosef will be received with great honor, joy and respect in all Sephardi communities the world over.
4. You are of course talking rubbish about Kashrut, though I admit I am very pleased when I can buy a product with the Bet Yosef hecsher.
"RaP: True, who was to know that Metzger would become an utter disgrace, as he turned out to be corrupt and the elections of two new Chief Rabbis came none too soon."
ReplyDeleteHe was already an utter disgrace due to the earlier scandals before he ran for chief rabbi. He was already an utter disgrace since he was known not to be a Torah scholar.
Ephraim said..."He was already an utter disgrace due to the earlier scandals before he ran for chief rabbi. He was already an utter disgrace since he was known not to be a Torah scholar."
DeleteIt was not widespread information. But so what. The point is moot now. Metzger is gone now, he is history, he may even continue to face justified legal action for groping guys etc, so be it. Now hopefully on to the better and brighter things.
Let's not forget what to focus on. A historic first, not one but two new Chief Rabbis who come with supreme rabbinic "parental supervision" not just one "two-fer" but a double "two-fer" in the Chief Rabbinate posts something that has not happened in Israel before. And the important thing is the over-all context of it, with the all-out onslaught of the Lapid-Bennett-Netanyahu axis against the Charedim, and the cocky assumption that the Mizrachi ultra-leftwinger Rabbi Stav with his ultra-radical agendas should be should be a shoo-in. The LAST thing that Lapid and Bennett expected is to be outmaneuvered on this. For such masters of the new Israeli political universe, a lot of which involves keeping Charedi rabbis and their allies down and out of any and all positions of influence and power, this was a major set-back.
The fascinating thing is that Yair Lapid and Naftali Bennett only have themselves to blame because many people are frightened of them and their agenda, not just Charedim, as was reported in Arutz Sheva - Israel National News:
"Rabbinate Vote ‘Exposed Rift in Religious Zionism’
Member of voting board says religious Zionists chose hareidi-religious candidates. ‘Deep rift in religious-Zionist society.’
By Maayana Miskin
7/28/2013
The elections of two hareidi-religious rabbis as the new Chief Rabbis of Israel reflects a deep split within religious-Zionist society, reports Sarah Eliash, who sat on the 150-member board that elected the rabbis.
It was not only hareidi-religious board members who supported hareidi candidates over religious-Zionist candidates, she explained in an interview with Arutz Sheva. “Our people crossed [party] lines,” she said.
“There are those who didn’t vote for religious-Zionist parties in the elections, either,” she noted.
There was particular opposition to Rabbi David Stav, she said. “They accused him of all that’s wrong with the world,” she said in frustration.
Prior to the elections some rabbis called for Rabbi Stav to drop out of the race in order to add pressure on the government to allow Rabbi Yaakov Ariel to run, despite him being over the age limit of 70.
According to Eliash, that would not have helped. “I definitely think Rabbi Druckman recognized how problematic it was and wanted to unify the camp [by running Rabbi Ariel], but it was clear that if they ran Rabbi Ariel, then Rabbi Lau the father would have run, and he would have won,” she explained.
The results of the elections should lead to serious thought, she warned. “The religious-Zionist community was divided from within. That raises questions about our ability to keep working together,” she said.
“Our inability to put forth a candidate who would be accepted by the entire community reveals a deep rift within us. I hope that the Bayit Yehudi, which is just starting out, will learn from what happened and will work together,” she continued.
“If not,” she warned, “we will continue to lose.” "
Arutz Sheva - Israel National News:
ReplyDelete"Rabbi: Zionists Fought Hareidim, and Lost
The Rabbinate elections show the religious-Zionist community what happens if it fights the hareidi world, religious-Zionist rabbi says.
By Maayana Miskin
7/28/2013
Religious-Zionist rabbis lost to hareidi-religious rabbis for the two Chief Rabbi posts because religious-Zionist politicians tried to fight the hareidi world, according to Rabbi Mordechai Nagari, the religious Zionist Chief Rabbi of Maaleh Adumim.
“Unfortunately, the terrible stupidity of the religious-Zionist movement, which just this week supported the enlistment law, created a war here with the general public against the Torah scholars,” Rabbi Nagari told Arutz Sheva.
“Of course then the Torah scholars rose like lions to vote against religious Zionism, no matter who its candidates were,” he explained. “It was a war, one camp against the other.”
“The minute that the great Torah sages Rabbi Ovadia [Yosef] and Rabbi [Aharon Yehuda Lieb] Shteinman entered the picture [and forged a hareidi deal, ed], the battle was decided,” he said.
Every time the religious-Zionist community goes up against the hareidi community, it loses, Rabbi Nagari warned.
“We fought against the Torah, we got the Disengagement, we fought against the Torah again and we got the European boycott which hurts Judea and Samaria, and the rabbis’ loss [in the Rabbinate elections],” he argued.
“I advise Naftali Bennett not to talk about a national referendum. That’s not what will save us, what will protect the Land of Israel is protecting the Torah world,” he added.
Division within the religious-Zionist community also played a part in the elections failure, Rabbi Nagari said. “After all, Rabbi [David] Stav opposed the view of Torah espoused by normative religious Zionist rabbis. Rabbi [Haim] Druckman wanted to run Rabbi [Shlomo] Amar and Rabbi Ariel – it’s no wonder that this is the result,” he stated."