I am surprised at the low quality of this speech, even if it is poorly translated, it still is very low level of argumentation.
At least the "nazi" references have been dropped, but now it is back to the Arabs and the inquisition.
The claim that the zionists, the government, the mizrachi wish to destroy haredi Judaism is utterly ridiculous. Unless, the only definition of Haredi Judaism is reliance on welfare from the very Zionist state that he is attacking!
So Haredim, if they adopt the American model, or that of Haredim in previous generations who did support themselves, are no longer haredim?
The Spanish inquisition - is somehow the same as Lapid? Where are the torture chambers, the conversion factories, and why are haredim not running away to America?
The torture chamber is the Kupat Cholim, where men and women must mingle in a common reception. OK. And is this not the case i American hospitals? Why don't Haredim produce their own health system, and get a few of their billionaires to support some separated hospitals, where men and women have different building,s doctors, nurses, technical staff, ancillary staff etc.? After all, since in Haredi circles, rambam learned his medicine from the Gemara and Kabbalah, not from going to medical school. Thus it wouldn't be too difficult to produce some haredi doctors today.
The more I read these articles, I am more convinced that haredim really do wish to dictate everything to the secular government, even on how to build and run hospitals. And when economic reality does not suit them, they simply attack everyone as being anti-semites.
In every nation, health budgets are being squeezed, and vital life saving meds are being rationed. What this unheard of Rosh Yeshiva is suggesting, is to divert funds from life saving medicines to building segregated hospitals, to satisfy an inflated sense of "tzniut". Now, it is ironic that the learned rabbi is calling the Zionists haters, when he is advocating murdering patients who need medicines to finance his own sex segregation agenda.
He Actually didn't suggest anything . He asked why the already separated waiting areas in Haredei communities needed to be taken down . His answer was because they are attempting to destroy the Haredei way of life .
Please read the Rabbis statements well, before you reply so that we can have an intelligent discussion. Thank You.
Rav Daniel, If you are worried about the waning influence of Daas Torah, this is, IMHO, a better example than the abuse scandals. At least there, there MAY be a halakhic question about which poskim can disagree. This speech is simply a total distortion of fact. Yair Lapid does not say that everything wrong with everything is due to the Charedim. The comparison to the Inquisition is so stupid (for lack of a better word), it leaves me speechless. Is he also saying that these days, NOBODY can go to work since we're not on the level of the previous generation? Does he really think that everyone who went to work last generation had such learning Seders? Unfortunately the only Gadol I still hold of is Rav Steinman. I sincerely hope that my faith in him, too, will not prove to be misplaced.
Your comment is not that out of place with other postings on this blog over the past few years. In a sentence, gadlus seems to be that which is accepted by the hamon rav.
The words of R Steinman are measured and balanced, not asking anyone to commit suicide. Now, I wonder why India in particular? Chazal said one should live in Eretz Yisrael even if it is full of idol worshippers, than in a frum community in ChuL. India is a place of idol worshippers... And also Israeli hash smokers.
This is so far from the truth ... My own Rabbis/Roshei Yeshiva are people I truly respect and ask their "Daas Torah" even about fields that are not in their field of expertise. They are people I know to carefully choose their words, to shy from falsehood, and to weigh every issue carefully. However, saying many things which are gross exaggerations/falsehoods and then basing your argument on them is not a question of "acceptance by the Hamon Rav". These are empirically verifiable statements that are simply false.
Not what i mean - i dont disagree with you. I'm saying that the use of "evidence" that is clearly false by gedolim and the fact that they are less accepted as leaders by the hamon rav is directly correlated. Sorry if i was unclear
Apologies for being unclear as i agree with you. I'm saying that there is a correlation between the use of over-the-top rhetoric (which is easily disproved) by religious leaders and they're lack of acceptance by the hamon rav. "Accepted" gedolim dont say things like this - it has something to do with why they were accepted.
another factor in this speech is that it was most likely for internal consumption - we would not have heard of it had RAP not posted it. He collected $35M from some big businessmen, so presumably he is selling a real hard luck story. Probably some of the donors were the target audience for this kind of over the top rhetoric.
The Yesh Atid party and its followers are truly ignorant of and alienated from Hashem’s Torah. However, the irrational anti-Torah ideology and violence of some Chareidim greatly assist to maintain the Yesh Atid people in their state of hostility to Judaism.
Centuries ago our greatest rabbi, the Rambam, in his Iggeret Teiman identified the Arabs and Islam as the greatest enemy the Jews had ever faced. We Jews are now facing our greatest enemy, an enemy with huge financial resources and global tenacles that have penetrated the highest levels of the US government.
Islam is totally committed to the destruction of Hashem’s Torah and the Jewish people, (chas v'shalom). Rav Scheiner, with all due respect, you have failed to properly identify the true enemy of Hashem, his Torah, and the Jewish people.
The Jewish people desperately need leaders who will rally us together, and not divide us in this greatest of struggles in our history.
ELY makes a very good point. To the North, in Syria, there are Shia and Sunni barbariously killing each other (B'H this is a nes, where Hizbolla has turned its murderous weapons away from Israel and is using them to fight Al Qaeda). To the west, in Mitzrayim, the evil Mursi wants to run an Islamic dictatorship, and B'H he has gotten into a fight with hamas in gaza, whilst the masses fight, kill, and rape civilians. To the east, the descendants of Haman in Iran are trying to build Nukes, but are getting drawn into a war in Syria.
So, the idea and allegation that Israelis, even seculars, see Haredim as their enemies is baseless.
Actually the Haredei [Torah] position is that that external threats only have power as a result of weakening Torah learning and observance, and Sinat Chinam.
Sinas chinam is by definition, just that "chinam" - for no reason. It is not when you hate somebody for vilifying you and calling you Nazi, Rasha, and worse while at the same time demanding that your sons serve in the army but not his, and that you support his lifestyle. That would not be sinas chinam.
When pray tell me,have the haredim ever demanded that anyone's children serve in the army . Their general opinion is more in the line of Moshe Feiglin that a professional army is better for the country, army and economy, look it up if you really don't wont to have sinat chinam
"Sinas chinam is by definition, just that "chinam" - for no reason."
No, sinas chinam is when the true reason for the hatred is one's arrogance and refusal to connect with another, and so he finds pretexts for his existing hatred. The anti-semites have plenty of reasons for hating Jews, and not all of them have no truth to them, sadly. Yet their hatred is still sinas chinam.
The 5th Chabad Rebbe, the Rebbe Rashab, explains this at length in his famous "Kuntres Heichaltzu."
What's he referring to when he say Rav "Nahria" and the Mizrachi leaders voted to close the yeshivos?
ReplyDeleteAnyone who goes back to "quoting" Mizrachi of yesteryear, is irrelevant to me
ReplyDeleteI am surprised at the low quality of this speech, even if it is poorly translated, it still is very low level of argumentation.
ReplyDeleteAt least the "nazi" references have been dropped, but now it is back to the Arabs and the inquisition.
The claim that the zionists, the government, the mizrachi wish to destroy haredi Judaism is utterly ridiculous. Unless, the only definition of Haredi Judaism is reliance on welfare from the very Zionist state that he is attacking!
So Haredim, if they adopt the American model, or that of Haredim in previous generations who did support themselves, are no longer haredim?
The Spanish inquisition - is somehow the same as Lapid? Where are the torture chambers, the conversion factories, and why are haredim not running away to America?
The torture chamber is the Kupat Cholim, where men and women must mingle in a common reception. OK. And is this not the case i American hospitals?
Why don't Haredim produce their own health system, and get a few of their billionaires to support some separated hospitals, where men and women have different building,s doctors, nurses, technical staff, ancillary staff etc.? After all, since in Haredi circles, rambam learned his medicine from the Gemara and Kabbalah, not from going to medical school. Thus it wouldn't be too difficult to produce some haredi doctors today.
The more I read these articles, I am more convinced that haredim really do wish to dictate everything to the secular government, even on how to build and run hospitals. And when economic reality does not suit them, they simply attack everyone as being anti-semites.
In every nation, health budgets are being squeezed, and vital life saving meds are being rationed. What this unheard of Rosh Yeshiva is suggesting, is to divert funds from life saving medicines to building segregated hospitals, to satisfy an inflated sense of "tzniut".
ReplyDeleteNow, it is ironic that the learned rabbi is calling the Zionists haters, when he is advocating murdering patients who need medicines to finance his own sex segregation agenda.
He Actually didn't suggest anything . He asked why the already separated waiting areas in Haredei communities needed to be taken down . His answer was because they are attempting to destroy the Haredei way of life .
DeletePlease read the Rabbis statements well, before you reply so that we can have an intelligent discussion. Thank You.
Rav Daniel,
ReplyDeleteIf you are worried about the waning influence of Daas Torah, this is, IMHO, a better example than the abuse scandals. At least there, there MAY be a halakhic question about which poskim can disagree.
This speech is simply a total distortion of fact. Yair Lapid does not say that everything wrong with everything is due to the Charedim. The comparison to the Inquisition is so stupid (for lack of a better word), it leaves me speechless.
Is he also saying that these days, NOBODY can go to work since we're not on the level of the previous generation? Does he really think that everyone who went to work last generation had such learning Seders?
Unfortunately the only Gadol I still hold of is Rav Steinman. I sincerely hope that my faith in him, too, will not prove to be misplaced.
Your comment is not that out of place with other postings on this blog over the past few years. In a sentence, gadlus seems to be that which is accepted by the hamon rav.
DeleteRav Steinman said that it is better to run to India than to get drafted into the IDF.
DeleteSince you hold of Rav Steinman.
The words of R Steinman are measured and balanced, not asking anyone to commit suicide.
DeleteNow, I wonder why India in particular? Chazal said one should live in Eretz Yisrael even if it is full of idol worshippers, than in a frum community in ChuL. India is a place of idol worshippers... And also Israeli hash smokers.
Lapid has actually said many times that all the economic problems of Israel are because of the Hareidim.
DeleteEddie,
DeleteRav Shteinman's point was it is better to run anywhere you can escape to rather than serve in the IDF.
This is so far from the truth ...
ReplyDeleteMy own Rabbis/Roshei Yeshiva are people I truly respect and ask their "Daas Torah" even about fields that are not in their field of expertise. They are people I know to carefully choose their words, to shy from falsehood, and to weigh every issue carefully.
However, saying many things which are gross exaggerations/falsehoods and then basing your argument on them is not a question of "acceptance by the Hamon Rav". These are empirically verifiable statements that are simply false.
Not what i mean - i dont disagree with you. I'm saying that the use of "evidence" that is clearly false by gedolim and the fact that they are less accepted as leaders by the hamon rav is directly correlated. Sorry if i was unclear
DeleteApologies for being unclear as i agree with you. I'm saying that there is a correlation between the use of over-the-top rhetoric (which is easily disproved) by religious leaders and they're lack of acceptance by the hamon rav. "Accepted" gedolim dont say things like this - it has something to do with why they were accepted.
Deleteanother factor in this speech is that it was most likely for internal consumption - we would not have heard of it had RAP not posted it. He collected $35M from some big businessmen, so presumably he is selling a real hard luck story. Probably some of the donors were the target audience for this kind of over the top rhetoric.
DeleteDear Rav Scheiner,
ReplyDeleteThe Yesh Atid party and its followers are truly ignorant of and alienated from Hashem’s Torah. However, the irrational anti-Torah ideology and violence of some Chareidim greatly assist to maintain the Yesh Atid people in their state of hostility to Judaism.
Centuries ago our greatest rabbi, the Rambam, in his Iggeret Teiman identified the Arabs and Islam as the greatest enemy the Jews had ever faced. We Jews are now facing our greatest enemy, an enemy with huge financial resources and global tenacles that have penetrated the highest levels of the US government.
Islam is totally committed to the destruction of Hashem’s Torah and the Jewish people, (chas v'shalom). Rav Scheiner, with all due respect, you have failed to properly identify the true enemy of Hashem, his Torah, and the Jewish people.
The Jewish people desperately need leaders who will rally us together, and not divide us in this greatest of struggles in our history.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/06/tennessee-imam-jews-and-christians-filthy-their-lives-and-property-can-be-taken-in-jihad-by-the-musl.html
ELY makes a very good point. To the North, in Syria, there are Shia and Sunni barbariously killing each other (B'H this is a nes, where Hizbolla has turned its murderous weapons away from Israel and is using them to fight Al Qaeda).
DeleteTo the west, in Mitzrayim, the evil Mursi wants to run an Islamic dictatorship, and B'H he has gotten into a fight with hamas in gaza, whilst the masses fight, kill, and rape civilians.
To the east, the descendants of Haman in Iran are trying to build Nukes, but are getting drawn into a war in Syria.
So, the idea and allegation that Israelis, even seculars, see Haredim as their enemies is baseless.
Actually the Haredei [Torah] position is that that external threats only have power as a result of weakening Torah learning and observance, and Sinat Chinam.
DeleteTherefor that is the real threat.
In agreement, there is plenty of Sinas Chinam around flying back and forth between both camps.
DeleteSinas chinam is by definition, just that "chinam" - for no reason. It is not when you hate somebody for vilifying you and calling you Nazi, Rasha, and worse while at the same time demanding that your sons serve in the army but not his, and that you support his lifestyle. That would not be sinas chinam.
ReplyDeleteWhen pray tell me,have the haredim ever demanded that anyone's children serve in the army . Their general opinion is more in the line of Moshe Feiglin that a professional army is better for the country, army and economy, look it up if you really don't wont to have sinat chinam
ReplyDelete"Sinas chinam is by definition, just that "chinam" - for no reason."
ReplyDeleteNo, sinas chinam is when the true reason for the hatred is one's arrogance and refusal to connect with another, and so he finds pretexts for his existing hatred. The anti-semites have plenty of reasons for hating Jews, and not all of them have no truth to them, sadly. Yet their hatred is still sinas chinam.
The 5th Chabad Rebbe, the Rebbe Rashab, explains this at length in his famous "Kuntres Heichaltzu."