Monday, March 4, 2013

Weiss-Dodelson case: Rejection of Rosh Yeshivas letter

Rabbi Dovid E. Eidensohn
/2 Phyllis Terrace/Monsey, NY 10952
 phone 1-845-578-1917
21 Adar 5773

A  signed letter from major Rosh Yeshivas has been issued attacking Rabbi Avrohom Mayer Weiss for not giving his wife, a Dodelson, a GET. The letter declares three things: One, that the Siruv given the husband by Beth Din Machon LiHorah requires everyone to treat him as if he was in Cherem. Two, everyone should pressure him with public humiliations and by taking away his livelihood to force him to give his wife a GET.

All three things are completely wrong. Let us begin with the Siruv issued by Beth Din Machon LiHorah. Yes, they issued a Siruv and claimed that he did not respond to their demand that he go to a Beth Din to settle his issues with his wife. But there is another Beth Din, that of Rav Gestetner  in Monsey, that has issued a Bitul Siruv, claiming that the husband acted in a proper way and did accept the obligation to go to a Beth Din. The family claims that it has over twenty pages of proof [click here to view them]  in writing that they did accept the demand by Machon LiHorah to enter the Beth Din process to resolve the issues with his wife.  So the issue must be resolved by a third Beth Din, impartial and fearless and not the cousin of the wife as in this letter.

Number two,  is the mistaken demand made by the Rosh Yeshivas that everyone publicly humiliate him.  Humiliating a husband so that he is coerced to give a GET makes an invalid GET. This is taught in the Rashbo VII:414, Radvaz II:118, Bet  Yose 154 DH kosuve,  and Chazon Ish 108:12. If the humiliation is very strong, such as the kind of humiliations demanded by the Rosh Yeshivas, Rabbeinu Yona considers it worse than murder (Shaarei Teshuva 139). See Brochose 23Aa Talmid Chochom  was humiliated in public and committed suicide.  Surely  severe humiliation creates an invalid GET.

The same is true of the demand by the Rosh Yeshivas that people take away the parnoso of the husband. This is fiscal coercion that renders a GET invalid.  See Choshen Mishpot 205:7 Ramo, Gro and others based on the sugya of Pardiso in Bovo Basro; Michtov MaEliyohu Simon 19.

Anyone who signed this document is not educated in the laws of Gittin or Choshen Mishpot. The fact that Rosh Yeshivas sign together with a cousin of one side and pasken as if they are the Beth Din  even though they were accepted by only one side and did not hear the side of the husband shows they are ignorant of the most basic laws of Beth Din.

The Beth Din of HaGaon  Rav Nissim Karelitz  shlit”o in Bnei Braq has recently issued a letter stating that anyone who humiliates a husband or damages his income to force a GET has produced an invalid GET.

The  letter from the Rosh Yeshivas in utter defiance of the most basic laws of Choshen Mishpot and Even Hoezer is wrong and is a disgrace.  For shame.

Shalom,

Dovid Eidensohn

Musmach liRosh Beth Din of Gittin by Posek HaDor HaGadole Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashev zt”l

36 comments :

  1. the first paragraph of this post doesn't read coherently. RDEE states there are three items and then lists two. Perhaps the article could be edited a bit.


    Michoel

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    1. Anonymous,
      There are three mistakes in two categories. One category is about the SIRUV and the other two are in the category of GET MEUSO or a forced and coerced GET.

      Delete
  2. I spoke last night to a Rosh Yeshiva about this matter. I told him my complaints as listed above and he had nothing to say. He listened politely to everything but did not respond. This is a Rosh Yeshiva who is known as one of the "Gedolim" of Agudas Yisroel, the very same "Gedolim" who ruled in 2009 that the gays deserve a federal hate crime bill because as one of them explained to me, "We are against hate." So, they are against hate and now they are pro-mamzerim. It is time to make war on these people. They rule that we must back gays so liberal politicians will give money to Yeshivas. And now they rule that we must force an invalid GET because that is their "Daas Torah" which nobody bothers to define. If they speak, and it conflicts with Moshe Rabbeinu, it obviously means that Moshe Rabbeinu is not a Gadol! That is true. He is not, cholila, a "gadol" like the ones in the Agudah, who have a treifeh Torah and it gets more treifeh as time goes on. What will be next?

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    1. Can we get an entire list of Roshei Yeshivos who signed this letter? The probability that 99% are Kotler related by blood or bread is a definite.

      Delete
  3. I spoke last night to a Rosh Yeshiva about this matter. I told him my complaints as listed above and he had nothing to say. He listened politely to everything but did not respond. This is a Rosh Yeshiva who is known as one of the "Gedolim" of Agudas Yisroel, the very same "Gedolim" who ruled in 2009 that the gays deserve a federal hate crime bill because as one of them explained to me, "We are against hate." So, they are against hate and now they are pro-mamzerim. It is time to make war on these people. They rule that we must back gays so liberal politicians will give money to Yeshivas. And now they rule that we must force an invalid GET because that is their "Daas Torah" which nobody bothers to define. If they speak, and it conflicts with Moshe Rabbeinu, it obviously means that Moshe Rabbeinu is not a Gadol! That is true. He is not, cholila, a "gadol" like the ones in the Agudah, who have a treifeh Torah and it gets more treifeh as time goes on. What will be next?

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    1. If you don't name the RY the conversation never happened.

      Delete
  4. I would like to add to R. Dovid Eidenson that we in this generation have fallen victim to the Soton's plan where the Soton so cleverly figured out a way to use religion to attack our fellow Jew. Look at the tragedy that occutred yesterday in Williamsburg, where a beautiful young couple expecting their first child were killed along with their unborn son in such a violent manner. Raboisay, I as well as you have witnesses what has been happening in Williamsburg as well as in other communities. People and their families are being humiliated, ostracized because they open stores with large windows that allow passerbys to see womens clothing and the "Modesty squad" (Vaad hatznius) organized demonstrations in front of that store. The weberman case has caused the victims family to be ostracized for cooperating with the police becuae she was sexually molested. ORA is now humiliating fathers AND THEIR FAMILIES to further their agenda. WHEN WILL OUR LEADERS SPEAK OUT THAT THIS MUST STOP! Hashem is very strict with us when we hurt each other. He can forgive and be patient with sins against him , but he does not tolkerate such grievous sins against man! Yet pour leaders will not mention these incidents because theyr'e deeply embroiled in them.

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    1. Shmel,
      BE QUIET! If you are opposed to the "great ones" doing "great sins" that shows that you are a narrow individual who refuses to reinvent the Torah in order to get more money for Yeshivas!

      Delete
    2. Look at the tragedy that occutred yesterday in Williamsburg, where a beautiful young couple expecting their first child were killed along with their unborn son in such a violent manner.

      what in the world does that tragedy have to do with ANYTHING?

      Delete
  5. these are the same gedolim who are responsible for the infamous Get law. there are no gedolim left in america that are known. perhaps rav gestetner. No one else. being a godol means standing up for the truth.

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    1. Stan,
      I am shocked at your post. Don't you know that the Gedolim of Agudah have a New Truth? I am sure that Moshe Rabbeinu is busy studying it so he can repent of his mistakes in the First Truth.

      Delete
  6. To Reb Dovid,
    A little OT. It's much better to prevent an accident then to heal them afterwards. What people are forgetting is that many of these shidduchim should have never happened. Where is the outrage that many people give false information or hold back vital information in order to get the person married. I have spoken to numerous Gedolim and poskim, who allow to hold back information.
    One of the questions I ask now is, do you know any information that your Rov told you not to say unless specifically asked? Many of these cases could have been prevented. I know a case where the boy had mental issues and his Rav told the father in law that there is nothing wrong with him.
    When will they have an asifa for truth. One prominent mechanech called me names when I found out a certain boy had mental problems and I dropped the shidduch. Where is basic ahavas Yisrael ?
    Yes screaming against forced gitten is a must, but why not prevent them? As one Rov told me, but how else can he get married. And I am suppose to follow their daas in other aspects of Torah?

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    1. Moshe,
      I would love to answer your comments about those who lie in order to get very people married and destroy the lives of innocent people. But, tell me, what is wrong with destroying someone's life if it is "Daas Torah"?
      The Gaon Rav Mayer Mints zt"l told me the following. Somebody did a sin and crime so terrible that nobody ever heard of a Jew doing such a thing. A Rov was asked to explain how such a thing could be done. He said, "I don't know why anyone would stoop so low but this I do know: He did it Leshaim Shomayim, out of idealism."
      When it becomes a mitsvah to help someone, why not help by destroying someone else? And if someone's life is ruined, isn't that really bashert?

      Delete
  7. Rabbi Dovid Cohen from Gvul Yavetz has a long History of Giving woman Permission to go to secular courts

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    1. One Who Knows a Novardiker When He Sees OneMarch 5, 2013 at 4:55 AM

      Thank Gd there is someone like him around to save innocent women from appearing before a bais din. No yiddisher tochter should ever have to degrade herself by appearing before most of the clowns who call themselves bais din dayanim today.

      Thank Gd for gedolim like Reb Reuvain shlit"a who tells it like it is and couldn't care less about what some loser like you writes on the internet about get meusa and mamzairus. No one will ever ask for your psak din and no one cares about your opinion.

      Du bist ah gornisht.

      Delete
  8. At the very least, I applaud RDE for signing his name, posting his address, and listing his phone number on this letter. I think he is wrong about most of these matters as a matter of law and policy but commend him for his courage to sign his name to what he writes. Rabbi Michael Tzadok is just as brave.

    On to the topic at hand:
    Can we see the seruv? Who signed it?

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    1. I think the Siruv was on this blog somewhere. However, I could not find it. It can be seen at this link:
      http://www.getora.com/Seiruvim/AMWeiss%20seruv.pdf

      The Bitul Seruv seems to be based primarily around the wife taking the husband to court. You may remember that you and Rabbi Tzadok showed that the court documents list the husband, not the wife, as the plaintiff.

      So far no explanation has been given as to why the wife defending herself in court is a reason for a bitul seruv. Or why a moser has to be reimbursed for his court costs(as the Gestetner paper states).

      Delete
    2. "The Beth Din of HaGaon Rav Nissim Karelitz shlit”o in Bnei Braq has recently issued a letter stating that anyone who humiliates a husband or damages his income to force a GET has produced an invalid GET."

      That is the claim. A couple of questions:
      1) Why didn't Rav Karelitz sign it himself?
      2) Why is it not on any sort of official letterhead?
      3) Why does it look like a Pashkveil and not a letter?
      4) Why are there not actual signatures on it?

      This "letter" is something that any half competent high schooler can whip up in five minutes on a Hebrew word processor. Is there an original that we can see, or do we need to simply take your word for it that this is legit? Something that Rav Eliashiv Ztzal said not to do when it came to even his own signature on such posters.

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  9. I don't really understand any of this. Why is anyone speaking against the ruling of a Beis Din? Are you personally involved?
    Let the Botei Din work it out between themselves.
    As to ostracizing and embarrassing anyone - ask YOUR Rov what YOU should do.
    Did you ask your Rov about the damage caused by questioning a Beis Din's psak? All we have is the current crop of Rabbonim. Rash"i explains that the Torah did NOT enumerate the 70 zkeinim to prevent anyone from challenging the Chachomim of their day.
    To me it seems like Shualim Ktanim Michablim Keramim!

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  10. Nemo,
    The battle between Botei Din about the Weiss case is about whether or not he deserved a Siruv. A Siruv is issued by a Beth Din that has earlier issued a demand that someone respond that he accepts the demand of someone for a Din Torah and will cooperate with it. One Beth Din claims that no response came from the husband, Rabbi Weiss. Whereas the second Beth Din, and the family, claim that Rabbi Weiss fulfilled his duties in this respect and indicated clearly that he was ready to go to a Beth Din to settle the dispute. The family also claims that it has 22 documents to prove their point, that the first Beth Din received their response. Now, that is one thing. After this, that is, after the two Botei Dinim plainly disagreed about the Siruv, Rosh Yeshiva led by the cousin of the wife, signed a paper that the husband was in Cherem and that everyone should humiliate him and destroy is livelihood. I protested that the issue of whether or not there is a Siruv is in dispute, and how could Rosh Yeshivas led by the cousin of the wife declare that the husband is in Cherem? And secondly, even if the husband violated the Siruv, this has nothing to do with the GET, as the first Beth Din has plainly stated to me that the Siruv did not permit coercing the husband. So it is not a reason to humiliate the husband. Also, if the husband is humiliated or pressured with financial loss and gives a GET the GET is invalid as the Beth Din of Bnei Braq states. So these Rosh Yeshivas who signed the paper are plainly ignorant about the laws of Gittin, and have no sense of morality for signing together with a cousin of the wife against the husband, as if they are a Beth Din when nobody accepted them to be one and they did not even hear two sides of the story. I personally don't know what these two people and their families did, but if the signatures on the letter and the letter itself is genuine, the signers have committed a terrible thing putting someone in Cherem as if they are an independent Beth Din when they are not. I called some of the signers and got one on the phone, and let him know that I was strongly protesting what he signed, but he did not want to make a statement to me, he just listened. The letter has been circulated and seen by many people. If any of the Rosh Yeshivas feel that it isa forgery they should notify the public, and their silence, together with the testimony of several people I respect, that it is valid, made me respond. I am still trying to get someone on the phone a signer ho will answer my complaints or at least explain his reason for signing.

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    1. That is a lot of nothing as an answer. I would appreciate if you could answer how this works.

      The Bitul Seruv seems to be based primarily around the wife taking the husband to court. You may remember that you and Rabbi Tzadok showed that the court documents list the husband, not the wife, as the plaintiff.

      So far no explanation has been given as to why the wife defending herself in court is a reason for a bitul seruv. Or why a moser has to be reimbursed for his court costs(as the Gestetner paper states).

      Delete
  11. Nemo,
    You write, (regarding my claim that the Bnei Braq Beth Din published the letter featured here not to humiliate a husband.) "A couple of questions:
    1) Why didn't Rav Karelitz sign it himself?
    2) Why is it not on any sort of official letterhead?
    3) Why does it look like a Pashkveil and not a letter?
    4) Why are there not actual signatures on it?"

    The Gaon Rav Karelitz shlit'O is in his nineties and the Beth Din is led by his son-in-law HaGaon Rav Surel Rosenberg Rosenberg shlit"o. The style of the letter is common in Israel to hang on the walls and make statements of halacha. The printer who does these letters does it just the way it appears, without signature but with printed letter. I wrote to the Beth Din a while back my thoughts on humiliating a husband and they agreed with it. I then asked them to publish a letter forbidding humiliating the husband. Then I asked the Beth Din to send me a copy and they did, which I forwarded to the blog.

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    1. So we have to take your word on it that this is an actual letter from a Beit Din... Sorry, but I'm not buying it. Especially as numerous Rabbanim in Israel have said specifically not to rely on these Pashkvelim.

      Delete
  12. Unknown,
    I am not speaking against a Beth Din. I merely note that there is a machlokess between two Botei Din, and therefore, the rest of us shoujld await a clarification from a third Beth Din accepted by the first two to clarify the issue, if that will happen. My protest was against Roshei Yeshiva who are not a Beth Din, but dared to pasken the halacha in the way they did, to put the husband in Cherem and to demand humiliation and lost of his income to force a divorce. I felt they, not being a Beth Din, had no right to do this, especially when one of the signatures on the letter is a cousin of the wife.

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    1. R' Dovid,

      your post actually prompts me to ask for some clarification on some points regarding halachic authority.

      What is the difference between a Posek and a Dayan? Does one have to defer to the other?

      What gives somebody authority to be a posek? does an accepted Rosh yeshiva have authority to pasken?

      And then there is the question of jurisdiction, ie the mara d'atra. Is it not the case that one rav cannot interfere in the jurisdiction of another?

      Delete
    2. Eddie,
      In ancient Israel and until the end of East European Jewish communities in WWII, each community had its rabbi and its own Beth Din. The Talmud frowns on more than one Beth Din, but there were circumstances that permitted this, such as when one Beth Din was for Hassidim and one Beth Din was for non-Chassidim, or when two great rabbis lived in a community and each had their own followers and made their own Beth Din. Each Beth Din had a community oriented authority. This is very important. But today people make Beth Dins on their own, perhaps to earn a living, and the authority of the Beth Din is questionable. But this applies only if we compare it to earlier Beth Dins commissioned by the city and community. The Torah does recognize the need for people to settle claims in a Beth Din. The community Beth Din is the best way to go, but there are other ways, such as what we have today. But as we know, this itself makes a lot of problems.

      Delete
    3. There is a problem with "supply and demand" for batei din, in that people now can shop around for the best deal - ie find a beth din that might be lenient, and also each Beth din is in a war for prestige and oneupmanship, thus claiming that their neighbor is illegal.

      Furthermore, how can a beth Din in Bnei Brak overrule a case in America? Of course a sanhedrin can do that, but we do not have one today.

      Delete
  13. A simple question:
    There is a teshuvah from R' Gestetner in defense of the Weisses. There is a teshuvah from R' Eidensohn in defense of the Weisses. If the Kotlers are so sure they are right, why doesn't Malkiel write a teshuvah in defense of his position? And I dont mean a letter or a kol korei, I mean a TESHUVAH. Someething with mareh mkomos, raayos etc. Show us that there is something at work here besides the Kotler family protecting its own. Surely if there position is oisgehalten between Shustel and malkiel they should be able to generate one simple cohesive teshuvah to explain themselves? Is this girl an agunah or a moredes? Give us an answer! and back it up! is any girl that walks out on her husband an agunah? That aint the way I learned Kesubos. (BTW, does Malkiel know which daf the sugya is on?)
    Second: Let Malkiel release the psak din that said his first wife is a moredes so he could get a heter meah. maybe it applies here and Weiss should do the same? Just saying....

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    1. Brisk/Eda haven't forgiven R' Kotler since the Heter of 100 rabbanim. R' Shach also signed on that one - so do you disqualify him too, since he was also related to the Kotler family.?

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    2. This is not about disqualifying. There is a problem here. The Kotler machine is banding together to destroy a yungerman who has a sterling reputation. The girl in question does not enjoy the same reputation. Neither does her family. The questions posed by those defending Weiss are never answered. The Siruv seems out and out corrupt, no answer. Roshei Yeshiva are signing letters after hearing only one side of a story, no answer. The girl seems to be a moredes , no answer. Malkiel Kotler is a bar plugtah of Rav Reuven Feinstein? Are you kidding me? Write. A. Teshuvah. Explain and back up your position. Personally, I don't think Malkiel has a clue which Siman in Shulchan Aruch the details of such a teshuvah would be found. As far as a heter meah, all I am saying is that Malkiels first wife had to have been deemed a moredes. I would like to see the basis of that psak and let's see if just maybe those same standards render the Dodelson girl a moredes as well. If so, well then we have an answer to this mess. Let Weiss follow the sterling example of the RH of the largest yeshiva in America -- get two wives!!

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    3. Lmaan, I see you make a good point - they need another heter meah rabanim!

      Delete
    4. The question is which Beis din has the right story. They can't both be right. One of them got the details wrong. As was mentioned before, what's needed now is a third Beis din who are impartial to decide.
      There is no reason to mix who has a better reputation as that's pure lashon haroh.
      A heter meah would help a lot because a kosher get has to first be deposited in the hands of a Beis din before you get one, which if I understand the case properly, isn't going to happen to quick, though I hope I'm wrong.

      Delete
  14. I Cannot Blame Weiss for Taking all Necessery Precaustions against The Lakewood Feminists ,he NJ Courts allways do what ever the Woman wants, any woman can walk into the Ocean County Family and Criminal court,File Charges against Her Husband Have him arrested and Take out a Restraining order against HiM,No Problem, With The Full Support of The Lakewood Feminist "Rabbis" including Rav Malkiels Uncle R'Gavriel Finkel who Heads Bais Din Vaad Hadayonim and is Notorious For Giving out Heter Arkous to all his Female Relitives

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    1. איזה תגובה אמריקאית אופינית ומרושעת
      ...וכמה כבוד יש לך לגדול ראשי הישיבות
      איש קטן - גוק אתה

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  15. I am SHOCKED by the chilul H-shem taking place. The irony is astounding – using divrei Torah to flat out go against the Torah. No matter what she did or how wrong she was, nothing excuses withholding a get. Whether there are financial issues or custody issues, there are systems in place to handle them, the same system every other person has to go through. I am shocked and embarrassed by his actions, and am even more traumatized that his family and friends are supporting him and have the audacity to do so publicly. Did he ever stop and wonder what Hakadosh Baruch Hu wants him to do? Where is the compassion for his wife, no matter how much she may or may not deserve it, and for his child who is caught in the middle? The same compassion he will be asking for when Yom Kippur comes around. Or is he just trying to get even? How scary would it be if Gd got even with him in return?

    Stop it. Everyone. Give her a get and handle your battles like a mensch.

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    1. סוף סוף מישהו מדבר לענין,

      במקום שהרב החשוב שכותב למעלה ישכנע סרבן גט לתת סוף סוף גט
      הוא מתעסק בטפלות

      שום תרוץ בעולם לא יתיר עיגון אישה
      עצוב חבל ובושה גדולה

      Delete

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