What is a Jew obligated to do if secular law conflicts with Jewish law?
Like, if the law says one must report someone to the police, but let's say al pi halacha that would be assur due to mesira. =============== we have discussed this a number of times on this blog. Simple answer is that there is no conflict with secular laws when dealing with an abuser and you need to report what the law demands.
See BM 83 and Shulchan Aruch 388 and the teshuvos that were published in volume 15 of Yeschurun of contemporary gedolim
we have discussed this a number of times on this blog. Simple answer is that there is no conflict with secular laws
My question is if there IS a conflict between secular law and Jewish law (halacha). It's a general question about mesira and other issues. Whether its an abuse issue or some totally different issue.
If forced to follow one or the other, which one should one comply with?
we have discussed this a number of times on this blog. Simple answer is that there is no conflict with secular laws
My question is if there IS a conflict between secular law and Jewish law (halacha). It's a general question about mesira and other issues. Whether its an abuse issue or some totally different issue.
If forced to follow one or the other, which one should one comply with? =================== Rav Wosner says that since non-Jews are commanded to have laws, we can not do anything which underminds their laws as long as they are clearly for the benefit of society.
This is included under the category of dina d'malchusa dino.
There is a whole literature on what happens when an action prescribed by secular law violates halacha. Similarly if secular law says something is a proof of ownership or kinyan - but this is not the Torah view - does the action acquire Torah status.
Other factors enter in - is their chilul hashem, is it life threatening, does it endanger the life of Jews, even when Mesira is doreissa or derabbon.
In general in abuse cases where there is reasonable evidence that someone is an abuser - mesira doesn't apply. In other cases it get more complicated.
Daas Torah said: Rav Wosner says that since non-Jews are commanded to have laws, we can not do anything which underminds their laws as long as they are clearly for the benefit of society.
R' Schachter indicated that the reason was because of Kedoshim Tihyu. You cannot have a situation where their morals or morality is even seen to be "higher". In the instance of abuse, it would appear to be a basic plank of a moral society to report alleged abuse or abusers to authorities. We aren't in Afghanistan or China or Russia. In a Western Democratic country with a reasonable set of laws and law enforcement, why would one do otherwise!
Daas Torah said: Rav Wosner says that since non-Jews are commanded to have laws, we can not do anything which underminds their laws as long as they are clearly for the benefit of society.
R' Schachter indicated that the reason was because of Kedoshim Tihyu. You cannot have a situation where their morals or morality is even seen to be "higher". In the instance of abuse, it would appear to be a basic plank of a moral society to report alleged abuse or abusers to authorities. We aren't in Afghanistan or China or Russia. In a Western Democratic country with a reasonable set of laws and law enforcement, why would one do otherwise! ============= Because of the perception that the prohibition of mesira is more important. that one can't speak lashon harah, that report causes chilul hashem and that there are not proper witnesses and finally that one can not cause a person to be punished with a greater punishment than is provided by Torah law.
How is this proposed law consistent with the formal Aguda policy announced over the summer requiring consulting to a rabbi first (and therefore potentially not reporting a case abuse)? Is Ohel bucking Aguda? Or does the law have some sort of "reliance on rabbinic counsel" defense?
How's the Agudah going to get around this one?
ReplyDeleteWill the law pass? And if so, how will it be monitored?
ReplyDeleteWhat is a Jew obligated to do if secular law conflicts with Jewish law?
ReplyDeleteLike, if the law says one must report someone to the police, but let's say al pi halacha that would be assur due to mesira.
J said...
ReplyDeleteWhat is a Jew obligated to do if secular law conflicts with Jewish law?
Like, if the law says one must report someone to the police, but let's say al pi halacha that would be assur due to mesira.
===============
we have discussed this a number of times on this blog. Simple answer is that there is no conflict with secular laws when dealing with an abuser and you need to report what the law demands.
See BM 83 and Shulchan Aruch 388 and the teshuvos that were published in volume 15 of Yeschurun of contemporary gedolim
we have discussed this a number of times on this blog. Simple answer is that there is no conflict with secular laws
ReplyDeleteMy question is if there IS a conflict between secular law and Jewish law (halacha). It's a general question about mesira and other issues. Whether its an abuse issue or some totally different issue.
If forced to follow one or the other, which one should one comply with?
J said...
ReplyDeletewe have discussed this a number of times on this blog. Simple answer is that there is no conflict with secular laws
My question is if there IS a conflict between secular law and Jewish law (halacha). It's a general question about mesira and other issues. Whether its an abuse issue or some totally different issue.
If forced to follow one or the other, which one should one comply with?
===================
Rav Wosner says that since non-Jews are commanded to have laws, we can not do anything which underminds their laws as long as they are clearly for the benefit of society.
This is included under the category of dina d'malchusa dino.
There is a whole literature on what happens when an action prescribed by secular law violates halacha. Similarly if secular law says something is a proof of ownership or kinyan - but this is not the Torah view - does the action acquire Torah status.
Other factors enter in - is their chilul hashem, is it life threatening, does it endanger the life of Jews, even when Mesira is doreissa or derabbon.
In general in abuse cases where there is reasonable evidence that someone is an abuser - mesira doesn't apply. In other cases it get more complicated.
Daas Torah said:
ReplyDeleteRav Wosner says that since non-Jews are commanded to have laws, we can not do anything which underminds their laws as long as they are clearly for the benefit of society.
R' Schachter indicated that the reason was because of Kedoshim Tihyu. You cannot have a situation where their morals or morality is even seen to be "higher". In the instance of abuse, it would appear to be a basic plank of a moral society to report alleged abuse or abusers to authorities. We aren't in Afghanistan or China or Russia. In a Western Democratic country with a reasonable set of laws and law enforcement, why would one do otherwise!
pitputim said...
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah said:
Rav Wosner says that since non-Jews are commanded to have laws, we can not do anything which underminds their laws as long as they are clearly for the benefit of society.
R' Schachter indicated that the reason was because of Kedoshim Tihyu. You cannot have a situation where their morals or morality is even seen to be "higher". In the instance of abuse, it would appear to be a basic plank of a moral society to report alleged abuse or abusers to authorities. We aren't in Afghanistan or China or Russia. In a Western Democratic country with a reasonable set of laws and law enforcement, why would one do otherwise!
=============
Because of the perception that the prohibition of mesira is more important. that one can't speak lashon harah, that report causes chilul hashem and that there are not proper witnesses and finally that one can not cause a person to be punished with a greater punishment than is provided by Torah law.
How is this proposed law consistent with the formal Aguda policy announced over the summer requiring consulting to a rabbi first (and therefore potentially not reporting a case abuse)? Is Ohel bucking Aguda? Or does the law have some sort of "reliance on rabbinic counsel" defense?
ReplyDelete