מגיעה לשלב האישומים. כתבי אישום חמורים הוגשו היום (ה') כנגד שניים מן החשודים בפרשה, בני העדה החרדית. השניים נאשמים בביצוע מעשי אונס ומעשי סדום ביותר מ-50 ילדים ברחבי השכונות החרדיות. במשטרה ציינו כי החקירה נמשכת וכי
צפויים כתבי אישום נוספים בפרשה המסועפת.
על פי כתב האישום שהוגש נגד השניים לבית משפט המחוזי בירושלים, הם נהגו לפתות ילדים בממתקים, שיכנעו אותם לצפות עמם בסרטים פורנוגרפיים. לאחר מכן, נטען, ביצעו בהם מעשי סדום חמורים, התעללו בהם והכו אותם.
במשטרה חושדים כי השניים נהגו לבצע את המעשים בצוותא, תוך שהם מבצעים אורגיות קבוצתיות, כאשר אספו מספיק ילדים להשתתף עימם במעשים.
במשטרה חושדים כי השניים נהגו לבצע את המעשים בצוותא, תוך שהם מבצעים אורגיות קבוצתיות, כאשר אספו מספיק ילדים להשתתף עימם במעשים.
בכתב האישום שהוגש נגד אחד מהשניים, תושב מאה שערים בן ה-44, נטען כי הוא פיתה ילד בן 13 ואת חבריו לבוא עימו לביתו במשך תקופה של שנה. השניים גרים בסמיכות באותה השכונה. באותם הביקורים, אף הורה הנאשם לו ולחבריו לחלל שבת ולהדליק אורות בבית. במהלך הביקורים, נטען בכתב האישום, הוא הציג לילד סרטים פורנוגרפיים, הפשיט אותו מבגדיו והכה אותו במקל פעמים רבות.
this is really sickening, and disgusting.
ReplyDeleteIf someone in that neighbourhood was committing a minor transgression, eg slightly less modest clothing, mixed seating on a bus, or even opening a cinema, there would be war, riots, and the strongest condemnations by the leaders and regular baalei batim.
Yet acts of such immorality and cruelty, and nothing is happening int he shchuna.
It reminds me of the pro arab critics of Israel, who make a song and dance whenever a Palestinian is killed, but when Syrians massacre thousands of civilians, they don't blink an eyelid!
Eddie,
ReplyDeleteYou mean to tell me that you really believe these charges? Can you even read Hebrew?
The article claims that these actions (molesting them and beating them) took place a whole year!
Which idiot kid comes back for beatings for a whole year? Let alone a whole group of kids?
From the data available , I wish to ask - honestly, how long has this phenomenon been going on for?
ReplyDeleteWas it recorded in Europe? Or would it have been safer in those days "presumably", to keep shtum, in case the goyim found out?
There are already mentioned cases of this in the Talmud, in both Kiddushin and Sanhedrin - where Kiddushin takes the stricter view.
Or is it safe to say that the depravity of idolatry recorded in the Neviim , essentially never left Israel?
Skeptic said...
ReplyDeleteEddie,
You mean to tell me that you really believe these charges? Can you even read Hebrew?
The article claims that these actions (molesting them and beating them) took place a whole year!
Which idiot kid comes back for beatings for a whole year? Let alone a whole group of kids?
========
skeptic - you obviously are not familiar with the reality of abuse - just listen to the video of Pinny Taub. This is unfortunately common. It applies also to wife abuse. You obviously would not stay in a marriage with a spouse who beat you and constantly humiliated you - but many do.
Eddie said...
ReplyDeleteFrom the data available , I wish to ask - honestly, how long has this phenomenon been going on for?
Was it recorded in Europe? Or would it have been safer in those days "presumably", to keep shtum, in case the goyim found out?
There are already mentioned cases of this in the Talmud, in both Kiddushin and Sanhedrin - where Kiddushin takes the stricter view.
Or is it safe to say that the depravity of idolatry recorded in the Neviim , essentially never left Israel?
==========
Intersting question. I discuss this in my book. The earliest discussion of abuse are the mid 1800's. The issue did not become a concern in the secular world until the 1970's when Vietnam War and Feminism created a concern for trauma.
In general rabbis considered this a moral offense and like the general population including therapist did not realizae the sever damage that resulted.
I wish to make a hypothesis, which I do not suggest as an attack on peoples' beliefs or to mezalzel anyone. But would welcome comments and criticism:
ReplyDeleteWe believe, as Traditional Jews, that even though it is not always clear, there is Hashgacha in historical events. Some cataclysms, like the Shoah we cannot fathom.
There is even a midrashic source abotu the Moshiach having some kind of pgam, hence David's descent from Ruth the moabitess, to avert the satan..
Now - certain processes in history - which have been rejected by rabbanim, have resulted in some good.
Examples: Ben Yehuda re-dedicating the Hebrew language - which was hitherto only used in Sifrei Kodesh and has become a living language.
European nationalism, secular zionism - which was not a breakaway form torah Judaism, but from emancipationism - hence Herzl was not a Yeshiva bochur going OTD, he was totally secular, going OTD of assimilitionism - and in doing so , perhaps saved millions of others from total assimilation. (Many secular Jews who did no follow Zionism, simply assimilated away.)
This brings us to the movements mentioned by DT: feminism; and psychology movement including psychoanalysis. Whilst these movements have in general been rejected - in a sense they also offer some liberation, some kedusha, some Avodat Hashem.
Rambam, in Hilchot Shabbat, says if a man is fishing on Shabbat, and spreads his net, and saves a drowning person, he hasn't been mechalel Shabbat!
Another obvious example, is the step by step disintegration of Israel's enemies, without Israel having to go to war! First Iraq. Libya. Next will be the most bitter enemies Syria, and Iran. Anybody with an ounce of sense cannot fail to see Hashem's Guidance - positive guidance - of history , carrying on today.
in The six day war, the army did not plan to take Jerusalem. This happened, largely because of one man. An Ilui in Torah, R Shlomo Goren, persuaded Motta Gur that it is a good idea to do so! It was an opportunist move, which nobody was expecting, and the army hadnt planned!
Skeptic,
ReplyDeletepresumably you are an adult male, with some degree of western education.
These attacks took lace in Meah Shearim, in a community that shys away from the authorities, that has inadequate sex education and security measures;
the parents have no contact with the secular world, and collaborating with police, social services etc is considered mesirah.
Furthermore, if we extend your argument, then perhaps no abuse ever occurs anywhere in the world, since the children would not come back. Unfortunately , the scenario you paint is very simplistic, and does not represent reality.
We also do not have detailed information of the victims, and whether there were many more who have not come forward.
Eddie,
ReplyDelete"We believe, as Traditional Jews, that even though it is not always clear, there is Hashgacha in historical events. Some cataclysms, like the Shoah we cannot fathom."
That's a machlokes. Rabbi Avigdor Miller felt that it was well explained by gross abandonment of the Torah by many and he shows many instances of mida cneged mida.
"There is even a midrashic source abotu the Moshiach having some kind of pgam, hence David's descent from Ruth the moabitess, to avert the satan.."
I don't know where you saw the pgam pshat. What the medrash means is what the Ramban said about the Seh l'Azazel. Hakadosh Boruch Hoo wants the totality of human life included in the ultimate tikun and that includes the yetzer hora. Moshiach is pure but his source appears to be tainted but it's just enlisting the samech mem in Hashem's service.
"Examples: Ben Yehuda re-dedicating the Hebrew language - which was hitherto only used in Sifrei Kodesh and has become a living language."
Who says that this is good. Maybe it's a debasement of the Holy tongue into gutter language.
"European nationalism, secular zionism - which was not a breakaway form torah Judaism, but from emancipationism - hence Herzl was not a Yeshiva bochur going OTD, he was totally secular, going OTD of assimilitionism - and in doing so , perhaps saved millions of others from total assimilation. (Many secular Jews who did no follow Zionism, simply assimilated away.)"
Zionism is avoda zara bshituf according to Rav Elchonon Wasserman in Omer ani maasei lamelech.
"This brings us to the movements mentioned by DT: feminism; and psychology movement including psychoanalysis. Whilst these movements have in general been rejected - in a sense they also offer some liberation, some kedusha, some Avodat Hashem."
Where? How? All they offer is depravity and corruption of society.
"Another obvious example, is the step by step disintegration of Israel's enemies,"
The arab spring is a progression of Arab hatred which is controlled to the rabid and active hatred of the Islamists. The most recent attack came from Egypt, which was previously under control.
"Anybody with an ounce of sense cannot fail to see Hashem's Guidance - positive guidance - of history , carrying on today.
in The six day war, the army did not plan to take Jerusalem. This happened, largely because of one man. An Ilui in Torah, R Shlomo Goren, persuaded Motta Gur that it is a good idea to do so! It was an opportunist move, which nobody was expecting, and the army hadnt planned!"
Rav Dessler says that no matter what people do or intend, His will always gets done.
Eddie your thesis is very similar to that of Rav Tzadok You might be interested in the following article by Dr. Elman
ReplyDelete=================
J. Iewish Thought and Philosophy, Yol. 3, pp. 153-187
The History of Gentile Wisdom according to Rav Tzadok haKohen of Lublin
Yaakov Elman
Yeshiva University
In the late hasidic system of R. Zadok ha-Kohen of Lublin the great Lurianic drama of cosmic catastrophe and slow rebuilding takes on a
decided epistemologic cast. The niryoqot qedosbot, the "holy sparks" are, to mix a metaphor, nuggets of true wisdom, exiled within the essential false-
hood of non-Torah wisdom. Vivified by them, however, this foreign wisdom akes on a life of its own and becomes the subiect of R. Zadok's historiosophy.
Tzoorba,
ReplyDeletethanks for your comments.
Yes, these are the mainstream Rosh Yeshiva views from Europe.
On this occasion, I am not debating the issue, and I welcome all feedback.
The only point i would make is - regarding "debasing " loshon hakodesh - do you not see that the 2 biggest disasters of this exile occurred when we debased Hebrew letters to speak impure languages - German (Yiddish) and Spanish (Ladino).
Each of these impure nations destroyed Jewry with no mercy
- the Spanish inquisition, and the Nazi Holocaust.
@ tzoorba:
ReplyDelete"The arab spring is a progression of Arab hatred which is controlled to the rabid and active hatred of the Islamists. The most recent attack came from Egypt, which was previously under control."
~~~~~~~~~
This I will debate, as it is not a debate about a Daat of Roshei Yeshiva.
Even under Mubarak, the problems were growing in Sinai. The Gaza situation was made worse by the Israeli pullout, and their neglect (thanks to Sharon) of the Philadelphia road.
Arab "hatred" - Syria having a most powerful army, and funding Hizbolla, is Israel's 2nd strongest enemy, after Iran.
Yes, there is a problem of fundamentalist Islam, but these nations will hopefully become more pragmatic.
When I was a child, the peace treaty took place with Begin and Sadat. Then, I remembered the verse "A pharoah arose that did not remember Joseph". Now we see this possibility recurring. On the other hand, Egypt cannot afford to lose the sinai again, as the oil and gas reserves there are vital to its economy.
R' Tzadok was a truly sophisticated thinker.
ReplyDeleteAlso, R' Kook certainly said this about secular Zionism (which was seen as highly controversial).
There is a difference between "secular" and atheist or anti-Torah Zionism.
Today, the anti-Torah groups are no longer "zionist" in any sense. They are post- zionists, and are at home with Neturei Karta and Hamas.
They attend the same demonstrations, and are mechalel shabbes together with the NK!
Secular Zionism is simply saying get the hell out of Europe, which is what Herzl said. In that sense he was right, and R' Elchanan was wrong.
A secular subject is not opposed to Torah. You cannot have anti- torah medicine for example. An asthma inhaler is not chol and is not kodesh.
Israeli scientific discovery (based on forbidden university studies)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/267647/Has-science-discovered-way-to-halt-diabetes-