Wednesday, December 30, 2009

your disgusting blog



It is important to note that there are many who don't understand that a massive earthquake has happened that needs to be addressed. I have been getting a significant amount of letters like this and personal confrontations with people who have very strong opinions against what I am doing as well as Rav Sternbuch. I am simply waiting for the rabbinic leadership to assume responsibility for investigating this mess and making changes that will prevent it from happening again. This scandal is not simply that one Jew had strong appetites - he was given too much power and his deviations were ignored by too many who should have done something about it. Also contrary to what is asserted in this letter it is clear that those in power either read or are informed of what I say on my blog and thus there is clearly a to'eles

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It is a disgrace and abomination that you invoke the name or any other reference to the gedolei hador who are domeh lemalachim Rav Moshe ZT”L and the Chofetz Chaim ZT”L anywhere on this disgusting blog of yours.

While I don’t disagree with your views per se, we as laymen can just talk and right about anything as long as we long as we are entertained and then stop when we are bored with it. The rabbonim whoever they may be or however much you or I hold of them actually have to deal with the matters at hand until there is a resolution. So lets not be throwing around our opinions that nobody else besides for ourselves particularly values. Because however on the mark you are about the case you are championing currently or any other nobody who carries any weight on these issues lemaaseh are reading any silly blogs. It is of no toeles to have a blog unless it is purely informational (not current events) for whatever use.

                Also I am sure we both agree that there are extreme dangers on the internet and even if one must use it, it must be recognized that the internet is shiflius and tamei while our  gedolim such as mentioned above are kadosh v’tahor and their names and likenesses should be kept off this lowly tool.

                As you can obviously see I am not trying to talk down to you or trying to be “better than thou” because it is apparent that I too am not using the internet purely for work and I am no stranger to loshon horah myself.

However I am just trying to be meorrer a point that hopefully will have an impact on both of us and many others as well.
                                Respectfully,
                                             xxx  
  P.S.  I must tell you that I appreciate your work on both maftechos and if I were you I would be satisfied having my name associated solely with those great works instead of also with  something as looked down upon as a blog.

56 comments :

  1. did the person sign his name to the letter

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  2. "I am simply waiting for the rabbinic leadership to assume responsiblity for investigating this mess and making changes that will prevent it from happening again."

    WADR R. Eidenohn, who appointed you to oversee the "rabbinic leadership"? Who are you (or any of us laymen) to declare or find the "rabbinic leadership" in dereliction of their duties? Are you (or any of layman) great enough to find the "rabbinic leadership" in contempt?

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  3. I read and reread the letter you received and published. I'm not sure if I should be moved to tears or hysterical laughter.

    First, your correspondent is in no position to lecture you, give you mussar or chastise you in any way. Your work and standing over the years speaks for itself.

    Your correspondent claims not to disagree with you and even extols you, but at the same time refers to your efforts as 'disgusting'. In my business, we refer to that kind of behavior as passive aggressive, a particularly odious pathology.

    If he were really so concerned about the internet, he would avoid it altogether. Instead, he polices the web to make sure to be current with all the shmutz so that he might be at the fore in condemning those who do not meet his idea of what is appropriate. Curious behavior for someone who in his own words regards the internet as shiflus and tameh.

    He is particularly disturbed at the idea that some people might express ideas and opinions of their own (read: contrary to his own).

    As I noted in an earlier comment, we are SUPPOSED have ideas and opinions of our own. We are SUPPOSED to take a stand. We are not meant to be sheep. We are SUPPOSED to struggle at times with ourselves. We are not meant to be blind followers. As maaminim we are SUPPOSED to come to terms with inner conflicts and we are SUPPOSED to deal with conflicts from without that challenge us.

    We are not meant to hide away and allow others to think for us or tell us what to do.

    To define a maamin is to understand and and be aware that the Rebbono Shel Olam stands with us and not just our manhigim. We are capable of making our own decisions. Harry Mayrle has a post up on daas Torah and daas baalei batim. It is an excellent post.

    http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2009/12/reversed-wisdom-daas-torah-vs-daas.html

    Cleaning up a mess isn't easy, but it must be done. Yes, you might get your hands dirty and need a shower to wash all the filth away. We all know that clean environment means a healthier environment.

    To not clean up or to avoid the mess in the hope the filth and the smell will go away is to invite further decay.

    Shmutz is a something we all understand and know. At times there are those who might say. 'No, this isn't really shmutz', or 'What smell? There is no smell!'

    Trust your instincts. If you don't or won't or allow yourselves to be bullied, you allow for decades of abuse of the worse kind.

    We've all seen it.

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  4. If he did sign his name, it should have been Mud.

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  5. i agree with mr. xxx

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  6. It is very difficult to both be frum and also write these posts.

    We all have some secret or not so secret schadenfreud in seeing Tropper fall down. Regardless of what our own views are on conversion.

    we should also try to remember that this particular scandal does not give us a heter to bad mouth anyone we disagree with or hold grudges against.

    So whoever wrote this letter, don't mock him, just argue about its merits and weaknesses.

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  7. The letter writer, in between his spelling mistakes and insults, speaks of "Gedolim." It doesnt speak well if the followers of said gedolim are comprised of the lowest parts of society, as embodies by this letter writer. I dont know if there ever was such a thing as gedolim, or if there ever was such a thing as daas torah as the rabbis self-servingly preach, but one things for sure - its not around today.

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  8. Its a DISGRACE that Rabbinic Leader ship and Gedolim havent come out to blast this man and this organization.

    I just dont think chareidi judaism is for me anymore!

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  9. ...Truthfully it never was for me. I just question myself now about Judaism altogether. (Which I've always had questions about anyways.)

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  10. Mr XXX.

    If it was not for the blogs, their is a very good chance that this would have all been swept under the carpets, and Tropper would still be running the EJF and nobody would have been none the wiser.

    Also if not for the blogs, If Tropper has a falling out with Miss Orand, he would have done what he used to do in the old days, he would have simply called all the Rabbi's who know her, made up some convenient lie about her,like he did in the Slifkin case, example: "She was doing inappropriate things with one of his talmiddim, or that he heard she eats chazir, or worse.. wears pants!Her reputation would have been besmirched, and that would have been the end of that.

    Do not forget how coincidental it was that just days before the scandal broke, their was a so called "Kol Koireh" from the "Gedolim" which Tropper no doubt drafted, calling for the ban of all "chareidi blogs".

    Wake up and smell the coffee, fake, fraudelent Rabbi's can no longer have free reign to do the work of Zimri and seek the reward of Pinchas anymore, not as long as blogs such as Dr. Eidensohn's are around.


    Keep up the good work Dr. Eidensohn. Chazak Ve'Amatz!

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  11. I think that you shouldnt have even published such a letter on your blog, the fellow is an "am haaretz" and has a big chutzpah to write to you lke that

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  12. I am very concerned that the respect for all Rabbinical authority is being eroded and destroyed,with rampant public bizui talmidei chachamim online. This a sad chapter in Jewish history. Why should our children respect their Rabbis and teachers?

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  13. Rav --

    Can you elaborate on what type of apology you would want to hear from the Rabbinic establishment?

    Thanks

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  14. Can you elaborate on what type of apology you would want to hear from the Rabbinic establishment?

    ================
    where do you see that I said anything about an apology from the rabbinic establishment?

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  15. Don't shoot the messenger!

    It is human nature for people to want to lash out at the bearer of bad news.

    I am sorry that you are experiencing this. You truly do not deserve it.

    Thank you again for all you do on behalf of all of Klal Yisrael. May Hashem Bless you and your family abundantly.

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  16. Another 'Anonymous' wrote:

    "Why should our children respect their Rabbis and teachers?"

    When they are engaged in outrageous behavior, they should NOT respect their rabbis and teachers.

    Is this a concept you find difficult to grasp?

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  17. in the print version of the JC in the UK last week, there was the article about tropper, with a sensational title of course, in the middle of the article was a picture of rav erentrau, this is the association the english people have with EJF, rav erentrau, anyone flicking throgh the paper would see the title and the picture, on reading the article they would see that he was only associated with the organisation of tropper and not involved in the scandal, but this is an egg in his face.

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  18. I have already commented plenty on my feelings regarding this tragic situation. Again, I am pained by what is happening, and I am pained that I feel like I am on my own, with no Rabbinic leadership to guide me. It is not just the Tropper incident, there is a laundry list of things about which our Rabbinic leadership has been unable to successfully address, if they address them at all. The author of this letter to Rabbi Eidensohn would prefer we keep it to ourselves, and keep things the way they are going. With all due respect to that person, this will continue to ensure that the K'lal sinks even lower than we already have. I am tired and drained from this mess, and am so horribly disappointed in the response of our leaders. Just as in the story of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza, people are being wronged, and our Rabbinic leadership would rather keep out of it. It is very sad.
    I would be happy to engage anyone who views things differently (or even the same) at my email address of itzikmyer@yahoo.com Hatzlacha to all. itchiemayer

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  19. in response to anonymous to Anonymous

    The respect all Rabbis and teachers in general is being ruined, even those NOT engaged in outrageous behavior. When we will need their help with our children, it will be too late, for the respect will have ben already lost.

    Our educational system cannot work if the kids don't have respect for Rabbinical authority and educators.They will just become cynical of everything Jewish.

    If the parent speaks derogatively about Talmidei Chachomim, the child will do the same

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  20. Yeah... Let's overthrow the rabbis! Let's do away with rabbinical figures! Let's install our own leadership! Maybe start our own denomination! Or even religion? Or join up with another denomination!

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  21. "Our educational system cannot work if the kids don't have respect for Rabbinical authority and educators."

    So we should be silent and not demand accountability, b/c then our children will no longer respect Rabbinical authority?

    What if the Rabbinical authority did not partake, facilitate, or affiliate with such controversies?
    And how about when they find themselves in such a situation, instead of being silent and hoping the masses/media forget about it, they instead are vocal and become actual leaders our children can be proud of?

    "Yeah... Let's overthrow the rabbis! Let's do away with rabbinical figures!"

    Nope. Nobody is suggesting that.
    We are only hoping that our Rabbinical figures will act like leaders, instead of feeding into this stereotype that they follow money, and don't try to make statements against scandalous behavior.

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  22. Anonymous said:

    "Our educational system cannot work if the kids don't have respect for Rabbinical authority and educators.They will just become cynical of everything Jewish.

    If the parent speaks derogatively about Talmidei Chachomim, the child will do the same"

    What a pity there were those who spoke out against Kolko and others like him, or others who beat their wives.

    What a pity children and women now might have less fear speaking out against abusers.

    No one is talking about disrespecting manhigim. It is not an either or situation. People who take a stand against corruption of worse are not being mevaze talmedei chachomim.

    In fact, we ought to be endorsing and celebrating those manihigim who take a stand and who do speak out against the those who have caused an enormous chilul hashem- and those who have hurt our community and betrayed our trust.

    We are not meant to sweep things under the rug, nor should we emulate how the Catholic church deals with their problem. They cannot be castigated by us if we deal with our problems in the same way.

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  23. Recipients and PublicityDecember 31, 2009 at 1:48 AM

    Why are you now allowing "Anonymous" comments"?

    ReplyDelete
  24. Recipients and PublicityDecember 31, 2009 at 2:12 AM

    Stupid yeshivasha non-logic from:

    "Anonymous said...Yeah... Let's overthrow the rabbis! Let's do away with rabbinical figures! Let's install our own leadership! Maybe start our own denomination! Or even religion? Or join up with another denomination!"

    "Let's overthrow the rabbis!"

    RaP: Nope, let's just get rid of immoral and corrupt ones like Tropper=EJF=sexcapades and those who refuse to not just condemn him, al pi ubiarta hara mikirbecha, but love getting money=shochad and being manipulated by him causing an obvious massive Chillul Hashem.

    "Let's do away with rabbinical figures!"

    RaP: Nope, for every corrupt rov there are a thousand pure ones today, just the ones getting into trouble are involved with fundraising and running after rich donors like Tropper's Tom Kaplan=EJF=sexual immorality. There are plenty of good rabbonim out there, and anyone in the Torah world could find them, but for now it is sick people and con men and manipulators like Tropper=EJF=sex den who have ruled the roost and it is the corrupt people who must be thrown out, just as no one is allowed to follow a novi sheker.

    "Let's install our own leadership!"

    RaP: Nope, there are already many good rebbeim in every yeshiva and chasidus but their voices are not being heard. They are too humble and do not seek the limelight like the Tropper=EJF-sex predator types.

    "Maybe start our own denomination!"

    RaP: Funny! This is EXACTLY what Tropper=EJF=Mr. sex club tried to do by opening a huge campaign to proselytize to goyim hitched to Jews against 2000 years of Halacha in golus as by his advertising he proved that he was trying to recruit up to a third of all humans, that's over 2 billion people, and he was trying to create a "new denomination" with himself as the new scandalous high priest, oh let's not forget his 2nd wife who was helping out (good pun) as the "rebbetzin" of this new cult of the Tropper=EJF=kinky sex denomination of perversion.

    "Or even religion?"

    RaP: Does Tropper have any religion besides his own raging testosterone powered libidinous lusts? Tropper=EJF=sex-in-exchange-for conversions was in fact NO LESS than a type of Sabbatean and Frankist cult (preach holiness outwardly and practice sexual perversion inwardly) and definitely NOT conventional Yiddishkei by any yardstick.

    "Or join up with another denomination!"

    RaP: Best joke, when it now appears that Tropper was really joined up with the hedonistsic "satanic religion" of the Playboy and Hustler r"l shmutz of the SATAN's "distorted religious cult of sexual lusts and perversions"!

    P.S.
    I am convinced that most of these "Anonymous" hostile comments are being placed b pro-Tropper internet trolls out to do their master's bidding as part of team Tropper's ongoing DAMAGE CONTROL! They should be watched and stopped.

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  25. This is how UOJ sums up the people who are not outraged at EJF's directors and collaborators:

    The vast majority of men prefer delusion to truth. It soothes. It is easy to grasp. Above all, it fits more snugly than the truth into a universe of false appearances -- of complex and irrational phenomena, defectively grasped.

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  26. The Tropper scandal shows us unambiguously that in our time the "Gedolim" do not merit Siatta DiShamaya, heavenly assistance. This was long clear to the diligent observer, but now all seekers of truth must acknowledge. Many fear the break-down of what they call "Emunat Chachamim." I hope for the same, and trust that the break-down process is well on its way. Siatta DiShamaya is the basis for Emunat Chachamim. Without the former, the latter rightly falls. I fervently hope for the imminent demise of the current system, because it has become a parody of the system that must be.

    Siatta DiShamaya must be earned. Only if we follow Torah as good as we can, heavenly assistance will be ours. At present, we do not follow Torah as good as we can. Torah is to be carried by sixty myriads of independent truthful thinkers, who humbly submit to a Sanhedrin that strives for Truth, has open discussions, gives Din v'Cheshbon, and decides by majority.

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  27. DT said "...what I am doing as well as Rav Sternbuch."

    What is Rav Sternbuch doing about the scandal (other than having already made a statement addressing the guilt issue)?

    DT said "I am simply waiting for the rabbinic leadership to assume responsibility for investigating this mess and making changes that will prevent it from happening again."

    What gives you the right to accuse the Rabbonim of not being responsible about this? Or not investigating it? Or not making changes?

    Remember, the Rabbonim have no obligation to advise you (or the public) of any action they take (or already have taken) -- or for that matter explain to you (or the public) why they feel it inappropriate to take a certain course of action. They may also deem it most appropriate to take whatever corrective action they deem necessary without announcing what it is.

    Who are you (or any of us) to demand any such thing?

    DT said "This scandal is... he was given too much power and his deviations were ignored by too many who should have done something about it."

    Who are you to accuse the Rabbonim that they ignored his deviations (or even should of known of them), or to accuse the Rabbonim that they must agree with your assessment that he had deviations that should of been known beforehand, or to accuse the Rabbonim of giving him too much power?

    The Rabbonim (rightfully) still stand by their positions they took on what the requirements are to convert (i.e. accept a young earth); what the requirements are for the conversion to be considered valid (i.e. intention to learn and practice all Taryag Mitzvos at the time of conversion); their position on the Slifkin matter; and all the other litany of complaints the left-wing Orthodoxy has been airing in recent days tying those issues into the EJF scandal.

    There is no reason for the Rabbonim to change their positions on these issues, nor will they despite all the recent hot air.

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  28. I have been allowing anonymous posts simply because the huge volume of comments would take too much time to rename with Bloggers limitations.

    From now on I will try getting back to the old policy

    If your post is rejected it probably is because it is anonymous posting

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  29. What gives you the right to accuse the Rabbonim of not being responsible about this? Or not investigating it? Or not making changes?

    Remember, the Rabbonim have no obligation to advise you (or the public) of any action they take (or already have taken) -- or for that matter explain to you (or the public) why they feel it inappropriate to take a certain course of action.


    Choshen Mishpat Siman 2 which says that the Rabbis answer to the Tuvie HaIr on civil matters. If you ask who the Tuvie HaIr were, according to the meforshim, even Am Ha'aretzim who had seichel enough to know what to do in civil affairs.

    Who are the Rabbanim to extend authority into an area that the Shulchan Aruch has clearly given to others? If they do not abide by the Shulchan Aruch themselves how can they be trusted to be Rabbanim.

    It could be said that the Tuvie HaIr today are the bloggers. They are the ones who public have put their trust in to tell them what is wrong and needs be fixed. Though admittedly this is an arguable point.

    That one point aside before you criticize others please actually familiarize yourself with the sources. We are a generation that doesn't think. We make assumptions about Rabbinic authority that does not exist in any Jewish source. The Shulchan Aruch as well as other sources defines the start and finish of Rabbinic authority. In many ways it does not extend to a case like this.

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  30. Based on his comments, there is no doubt that Zalman would have fully supported the burning of R' Moshe ben Maimon's books back in the day, and would have stood blissfully by as Bar Kamza was unceremoniously made to leave the party. itchiemayer

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  31. Recipients and PublicityDecember 31, 2009 at 9:52 AM

    To Zalman: (To quote your arrogant words) and "who are you" to cover up Tropper's sex scandals, the bribes he handed out to manipulate the rabbonim, the ugly sexcapades revealed by his conversations recorded (bli reshus, too bad) mistress Shannon Orand from Houston on which any shoteh can hear sex-addict Tropper talk dirty and filthy about his grobbe taivos.

    So "who are you" to act deaf and dumb and stupid when such a churban comes smacking you in the face? Shoteh atzum and chutzpadikke defender of Tropper. How mush has team Tropper paid yopu to come here and talk like this for Tropper's DAMAGE CONTROL as if anyone questioning Tropper is "wrong" and Tropper's policies "are great" -- the same argument that Tropper's defense troll "Roni" made on this blog recently.

    The rabbonim must speak up because it's expected of them. The tzibbur DOES have a say. It is a tircha detzibura and mitztaer the klal to be sovel Tropper's nevala that is now ahuge public Chillul Hashem in spite of the rabbonim's silence, and being machshil the rabbim to be quiet.

    The longer the Moetzes and the big and famous roshei yeshiva and rebbes say NOTHING about the scandal THAT MANY OF THEIR BOCHURIM KNOW ABOUT BECAUSE THEY HAVE LISTENED TO THE TAPES ON YOUTUBE OF A SUPPOSED "ROSH YESHIVA" TALKING SHMUTZ WITH A ZONAH AS PART OF A "DEAL" TO MEGAYER HER -- and who are you to tell people that they must "shut up and put up" with stonewalling and shtika kehoda'a of those rabbonim who went to the Tropper=sexy time=EJF=proselytization events and got big money for it and now those same rabbonim are keeping quiet and you have the chutzpa to say "who are you" to say/ask/question/expect/want to know/etc as if people are behaimas bli da'as and "stupid" and you are the ibber-klug shoteh "chochem" from hell.

    How much are you being paid to be an official apologist for rishus and nevala? Go home and learn some mussar and get a working brain installed. Oh, and stay of the Internet, the Gedolim are saying so, right? Shoteh and menuval that you are.

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  32. Zalman - By the way, I am absolutely opposed to virtually everything on the left wing's agenda, and I advocate there being strict standards for conversion.
    However, I am not for the centralization of power with regards to geirus, and recognize that local dayanim should retain the power to convert as I believe they always have. I am highly critical of the conversions of some high profile, very affluent people done for the sake of marriage alone (in my opinion). I am critical of the Rabbis that perform these careless conversions, but those Rabbis will be made to answer (for better or worst) for their carelessness on their day of judgment. I also oppose the reckless annulment of conversions which has been increasingly happening of late .
    If a recognized competent orthodox Rabbi, as in member of good standing in the RCA or Agudah or other reputable Rabbinic orgainizations performs the conversion, then the conversion should stand. For example, the Memphis beis din is comprised of recognized legitimate Rabbis of good standing. The YCT Rabbis, IMHO, are not. I am uneasy at some of the conversions of a Rabbi Lookstein, for example. However, he is a member of good standing in the RCA, and I accept his conversions even if some of them make me terribly uncomfortable. Quite obviously, I am not a posek so my rantings are not so relevant. My point is that my criticism of EJF affiliated Rabbis is not a criticism from the left wing by any means. itchiemayer

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  33. This is how UOJ sums up the people who are not outraged at EJF's directors and collaborators:

    The vast majority of men prefer delusion to truth. It soothes. It is easy to grasp. Above all, it fits more snugly than the truth into a universe of false appearances -- of complex and irrational phenomena, defectively grasped.

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  34. Here is a question that I have not seen directly addressed. Is this woman from Houston still a legitimate candidate for conversion? I find it difficult to believe that she would still be considered. To whatever extent she is not responsible for this situation, even if not responsible at all, it just doesn't seem like a good idea to proceed. I am open to the possibity that I am wrong.
    itchiemayer

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  35. r. eidensohn, we all know that your blog is "disgusting" to certain elements in the community, namely those who find all blogs and the internet itself disgusting, and those who have a dog in the race regarding emunas chachamim. you yourself must have been aware of this for many years. your own fencesitting re: emunas chachamim is admirable as far as i'm concerned but who cares what i think? why post this now? "all publicity is good publicity", as the sheigetzim say?

    why not cut to the chase: emunas chachamim as a torah concept- how far to take it? do we have to wait until the lichluch hits the ny post? would you have considered tropper "protected" under emunas chachamim 10 years ago, just because he hadn't been caught at anything? i'm a nobody, and i knew he was "off" the moment i met him 25 years ago. i needed his help, so i didn't say anything- JUST LIKE THE "CHACHAMOMIM" OF TODAY. if the "chachamim" are so smart/wise/holy/untouchable/perfect, how did this happen? how is it that you were alone and vilified when you spoke up years ago?

    let's move vieter: who CAN we trust? r. shternbuch with his "shetika k'hodah"? isn't that a little "biday evad"?

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  36. Rav --

    WHERE ARE THE SCREAMS OF MORAL OUTRAGE FROM OUR RABBINICAL LEADERS?

    WHY IS EJF GIVEN A FREE PASS TO CONTINUE PAYING OUT LARGE SUMS THAT CORRUPT OUR RELIGOUS COMMUNITY - WITHOUT ANY REVIEW OR OVERSIGHT?

    WHY IS THE GREATEST CHILLUL HASHEM OF OUR TIMES IGNORED AND THOSE WHO MENTION IT ARE SILENCED?



    Can you please elaborate here?
    Who you want to see scream? What you want them to say that is not already known? (namely that znus is assur and sigusting).
    Is there any precedent for such a scream and public outcry?
    Everyone is free to give out large sums of money as they see fit. I dont know why you think that NOW EJF should be different. I guess Im not in the thick of things of how things work with them and the recepoents of their donations.
    Who has been silenced when they tried to speak about this huge chillul hashem, and BY who have they been silenced?

    YOU live in EY, home of the pashkevil and public outcry. YOU have shaichus to RMS shlita. Why dont you, or some local askanim go from Gadol to Gadol to deal with this in a Torah'dig way. We ALL know that RYSE, RAYLS, RCK, RMYL et al have to shaichus to money and can not be swayed by the lure of millions. What is preventing YOU?

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  37. Random Guy worte:

    YOU live in EY, home of the pashkevil and public outcry. YOU have shaichus to RMS shlita. Why dont you, or some local askanim go from Gadol to Gadol to deal with this in a Torah'dig way. We ALL know that RYSE, RAYLS, RCK, RMYL et al have to shaichus to money and can not be swayed by the lure of millions. What is preventing YOU?
    =============
    Truly brilliant question.

    The answer is that I as well as others I know have in fact been trying that appraoch - so far it has produced nothing. Feedback I have received is that they are afraid to say anything or that the facts are not clear enough so they don't want to go out on a limb.

    In fact if when this story broke the rabbonim had made an announcement that accusations of a very serious nature have been leveled againnst a significant rabbinic figure and his organization. That x y and z have been appointed to investigate the facts, establish the issues and make recommendations. That if in fact there is validity to the accusation various takonos will be instituted to prevent such a thing happening again.

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  38. they don't want to "go out on a limb"? perhaps, g-d forbid, they know even less about chazal than i do. THEY weren't afraid to go "out on a limb". aren't we supposed to emulate them?

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  39. jonathan becker said...

    they don't want to "go out on a limb"? perhaps, g-d forbid, they know even less about chazal than i do. THEY weren't afraid to go "out on a limb". aren't we supposed to emulate them?

    http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2009/12/banning-rabbi-for-rumors-of-sexual.html

    See also the gemora regarding Shimon ben Shetach and the Sanhedrin

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  40. Knowledge about the scandal is still more or less limited to the Anglosaxon community. The average Israeli does not know, yet. If the Gedolim would speak up clearly, the scandal would become known to all. I assume they want to prevent that.

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  41. What are the gedolei Eretz Yisroel "afraid" of? They should only be afraid of Hashem.

    Tropper is in a position to retaliate against most people but not against them.

    Are they waiting to convince Rav Wosner to stop falling for Tropper's lies?

    Do they have Eisenstein and other Tropper agents hocking them a tcheinik from the opposite direction?

    Even the Badatz which agrees the tapes have been authenticated have not written anything. Why is that?

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  42. MR said

    The average Israeli does not know, yet.

    David J. said

    the episode was covered in all the secular media, yediot, maariv haartez, which also reaches many haredi people. in the ultra orthdox haredi areas, bothe in j-lm and beny brak, there were street notices which brought the scandal, who doesnt know about it yet then in Israel?

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  43. The Yerushalmi & Bnei Braker Israelis also know because of the pashkevilim.

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  44. i dont think this evidence would stand up in bais din or court all we have is hodah to that we apply ain adom masin atzmo rasha so there is nothing for the rabbonim to say even if they belive tropper is a bag of shmutz we all know ain apitropus larayos and escorts wife swapping etc has become the nissoyon of the day . in my community i told my balei batim from this we see how dangerouse kiruv

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  45. Zalman and his ilk are very confused souls.

    He thinks gedolim should not speak out against menuvol Tropper when they excoriate Lipa Schmeltzer for a slightly vilde niggun.

    This is the same mindset of the phony chassidishe rebbes who put R' Nuchem Rosenberg in cherem for speaking out >against< child abuse. (The 3 biggest talmidei chochomim among chassidishe in America did not sign the bogus cherem: Viener Dayan R' Avrohom Chaim Spitzer, Karlsburg Ruv R' Chatzkel Roth & Haleiner Ruv R' Fishel Hershkowitz)

    Mordechai Tendler was publicly condemned based on tapes that batei din examined and was kicked out of all his positions.

    When it came to Moish Finkel, he was condemned everywhere and a mob drove him from Monsey. Rav Matisyahu Salomon even attacked Finkel's zayde as being a no-goodnik too. (The story with Finkel's zayde in Schweiz is discussed in the teshuva seforim from 2 doros ago and is not so clear. Many people felt Rav Salomon did not have his facts straight)

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  46. orthodoxjew should not be making halachic pronouncements when he clearly has no idea what he is talking about.

    Tapes are admissible evidence because Tropper was caught in the act. Even something as shvach as maysiach lefi tumo can work but this is much more substantial.

    And stop your stupid farentferei of nisyonos. Even if you were correct, there is no shaychus here because Tropper is an extortionist and abuser of power.

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  47. "orthodoxjew" - you are anything but. I don't know what religion you practice, but the Torah Judaism community knows nothing of what you describe.

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  48. amhoratzus watch i think you should go learn something caught in the act hu ? that is the ? anyways im not farenfering this low life im just saying the gemarah says miutom baarayos im afraid this miut has become even bigger today and transends all from rabbis doctors teachers askonim and all crowds. the answer is torah study . should the gedolim piblicly shame a yochid ? just to cl

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  49. should the gedolim assume his guilt to clear there names

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  50. rabbi, thank you for the references. i had read your post from moed katan (it was only a few days ago) and am familiar with the gomorra on shimon ben shetach. is this your answer, then? the gedolim of our generation are afraid to stick their necks out l'maan klal yisroel because of fear of punishment at the hands of heaven? and if i bring all the gomorras where chazal braved such punishment for truth, justice and their people, would this sway you?

    i'm afraid i must continue to avoid our current "gedolim", who have less courage than a simple jew such as myself.

    i continue to commend your own efforts, and pray you will not be punished at the hands of these "gedolim". the hands of heaven you don't have to worry about, trust me. any am ha aretz could tell you this.

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  51. jonathan becker fanDecember 31, 2009 at 7:21 PM

    I stand in awe of the great jonathan becker now that he has self-declared himself to be more courageous than the Gedolim!

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  52. Rav --

    Do you think (or better put, is it your concern) that there are "rabbinic higher-ups" who are not coming out against tropper because he still has his hand on millions of dollars and they would lose out because of this?

    Also, how much of this whole stinking episode has to do with guma, if anything?

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  53. Thank you Daas Torah for finally commenting on your Toeles for publicizing the scandal. I am still waiting to see the letter that you said Rav Sternbuch will be writing on this topic. Why hasn't he publicized it yet if he is so outraged by this event? I am sorry for my ignorance, but I still don't understand exactly what you mean by "he was given too much power and his deviations were ignored by too many who should have done something about it. What is the big mess in this case? How do your posts have any Toeles if the average person outthere has no idea of what exactly supposedly went on?

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  54. There is so much sinas chinam on this blog. I have noticed that if anyone has any questions why the Tropper case should be publicized, people on this blog just attack the poster, call them names, and then go on and bash Tropper. I am not trying to defend Tropper in any shape or form, I am just trying to understand the Toeles in continuing to talk about this case. I am interested in halacha and actually following G-d's will, and not interested in just bashing Tropper or other posters who differ from what I say. I have studied hilchos loshon hara, and I am still not convinced of the Toeles behind people publicizing this scandal. The publicity has just made it a worse chillul hashem. Instead of bashing my thoughts, please explain (everyone who disagrees with me) please explain your heter to freely talk about this case according to halacha. Do you all have true Toeles in what your saying?

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  55. Bob Goldberg,

    Go through the archives of this blog and see the many sources Rabbi Eidensohn excerpted from on the laws of lashon harah and exposing corrupt "leaders".

    The uneducated will have the same questions as you. But the sources will put all your concerns to rest.

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  56. ok. good luck fighting your heroes.

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