R' Tropper's Blog - A strange comment which leaves out the essential point i.e., the Bedatz has severely condemned the EJF
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Question:
Rabbi Tropper, is it true that someone from the Badatz spoke with Hagaon Rav Dovid Feinstein, shlit"a regarding Eternal Jewish Family?
Yitzchok R. Philadelphia, Pa
Rabbi Leib Tropper Responds:
It was reported to me by this Rav from the Badatz that he spoke with Hagaon Rav Dovid, shlit"a and Hagaon Rav Dovid, shlit"a said positive things about Eternal Jewish Family. This same respected Rav from the Badatz spoke with Hagaon Rav Reuven Feinstein, shlit"a. This happened to my recollection, close to 2 years ago.
Another Rav in Flatbush called me who is very close to Rav Dovid, Shlit"a and told me that he also spoke with Rav Dovid, shlit"a and that only nice things were spoken.
This Rav in Flatbush also reported this conversation to Rav Nochum Eisenstein, shlit"a.
Harav Yom Tov Stern also heard the same from this Rav who is from the Badatz.
Your heading is as usual misleading:
ReplyDelete!0 They are not "desperate for praise" (it is you that are despaired how come they are so successful and despite your silly war against him you haven;t swayed serious rabbonim against him! neither you nor der krummer hateful havolim); he is interested in removing the full hotzaas shem rah, that some have ascribed against him,
2)Therefore he is interested to put things in perspective that some in the BaDAtz may not agree with the condemantion issued by some Rabbis there.
Why are they desperate for praise ?
ReplyDelete'They' actually means Tropper, he represents the corruption and in the excess in Orthodoxy. His frumkeit hashkafa was never part mainstream Orthodoxy.
From forbidding students to keep in touch with their parents, forbidding them to go to college, banning books which attempt to reconcile torah and science, to direct proselyting, to waging war on the Modern orthodox, to revoking conversions because of the woman forgot to cover hair or wore pants.
All these and others were never part of Judaism but Tropper and his gvir Kaplan try to represent their frumkeit as authentic Judaism.
Because sheker ein lo raglayim, their ideas are not true and therfore cannot stand on their own, they need all the praise they can get.
Roni wrote:
ReplyDelete2)Therefore he is interested to put things in perspective that some in the BaDAtz may not agree with the condemantion issued by some Rabbis there.
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Kind of strange. The full Bedatz condemned him - so his response is to quote a certain rav who is not a dayan with the Bedatz.
It is not as if he hasn't met with Rav Weiss before. In fact the reason why the condemnation of the Bedatz did not initially have Rav Weiss' signature was because R' Tropper and Tom Kaplan had visited him and he judged them favorably.[I know he has repeatedly asserted that I engineered this and he wanted to know what evidence I presented - but this is simply not true] It was only after Rav Weiss was shown the evidence that he made 180 degree turn.
So instead of quoting some anonyomous figure associated with the Bedatz it would make much more sense to simple go back to Rav Weiss or Rav Sternbuch and explain why their objections are no objections.
Perhaps he is shy? I would personally go with him to smooth the path to peace. [Even though he claims that I have a pathological desire to attack him]. Perhaps Roni would like to come along also.
In fact the members of the Bedatz are quite friendly and reasonable and since R' Tropper is in Jerusalem quite frequently it is about time he paid them a visit.
It is simply an embarrassment that he thinks that his post is in anyway a meaningful adult way to defend himself.
You may have some point regarding the anonymous Rav. But I don't see any fault in claiming that one Rav In the Badtz sees EJF favorably. There is no embarassment in it.
ReplyDeleteWhat is an embarassment is for you to attack the man in a way that you don't accept the TRUTH that he has baking by many rabbonim! and all the pilpuley hevel won't take that away. You have something at Rav Reuven, go to him and I'm sure he is also friendly and he will explain to you. But to have you and RAP and whoever of the gilgulim to attack Rav Feinstein and make beleive Rav Tropper does not have rabbinic support is an embarassment to you and an injustice you are doing to a person!
Roni, the rav who allows blatant proselytization to gentiles like EJF lusts for does behind the backs of its supposed rabbincal ettendees at its eevents, has not been born yet.
ReplyDeleteNo rov and or sefer has ever preached or allowed the possibility of "reaching out" to millions of goyim hitched to secular Jews who have of their own free will abandoned Judaism, and offer them enticements with free hotel stays, wining and dining them ad bli dai (infinitely) in the hope that those gentiles will buy into becoming ejf-style converts to haredi judaism. This is the real problem with EJF that it hides behind. Your constant claptrap of forcing "universal standards" (meaning they must do it Tropper's way or the highway) down the throats of every last potential convert while at the same down bringing down a wide reign of terror against any rabbi, be he Modern Orthodox, RCA member, Religious Zionist or moderate Haredi if they dare to follow a more moderate path in Halacha that exists wether you/Tropper like it or not no matter how much you stomp your feet and scream and shout into the wind.
roni wrote:
ReplyDeleteDT,
Why is this not repetitous? How many millions zillions times will we hear about "goyim hitched" "wining dining" and all the same garbage over aver and over.
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DT. Don't know why you call it garbage. you yourself have repeated said there is no prohibition of proselytizing. There are clearly releases from EJF which encourage and promote outreach in the broadest understanding of the term
RAP, for the umpteenth time:
1) Rav Feinstein backs Rav Tropper and so do numerous rabbis, who endorse his activities,
2) I asked you to produce the source for the *issur* of "prosetyizng" (if R. tropper would have done it)? You have failed ahundred times toproduce one lashon that it is ASSUR,
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DT:
Roni if you really feel that there is no issur with this - please get R' Tropper's authorization to say in his name that EJF is proselytizing and that there is no issur involved. I think that he will not do this for the simple reason that not a single participant at his conferences will publicly say such a thing. I don't think that R' Tropper himself would make a public announcement to that effect - even though he clearly agrees with you. Why not?
Why the reticence about telling the truth?
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Roni:
3) RAv Tropper stops the fake covnersions by the fake dayanim one of which is Bomzer, the one who conerts and becomes partners with your buddies, they do the ACTUAL PROSETYZING OF THE EREV RAV, A LA UNCLE TOM'S NEHPEW (THE ONE ARRESTED BY POLICE RECENTLY) ,
DT: You keep repeating this over and over again. You have never established that R' Bomzer's conversions are fake. You have never shown that his converts have anything to do with the Erev Rav. [If you get the Hebrew original I might modify that statement] You do seem to have a problem with the nephew - though you have never produced any solid evidence supporting your tirades.
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Roni
4) Rav Tropper will be commended forever for the favor he does to klal yisroel for minimizing those fraudulent fake conversions.
DT:
Havent seen any evidence that the above is true. In fact I have a letter from a distinguished Rav who asserts that one of R' Tropper's distinugished rabbis that is quoted as a big supporter of R'Tropper does conversions for money.
I'll agree that EJF is a lot of sound and fury - but I am not convinced of the positive significance of this.
roni wrote:
ReplyDeleteDT,
Why is this not repetitous? How many millions zillions times will we hear about "goyim hitched" "wining dining" and all the same garbage over aver and over.
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DT. Don't know why you call it garbage. you yourself have repeated said there is no prohibition of proselytizing. There are clearly releases from EJF which encourage and promote outreach in the broadest understanding of the term
ROni: NUMBER ONE IS HIGHLY REPETITIVE! Number two it is garbage for the way in which you picture the organization. Even if *were* (which ist is not) an *issur* it would not be proepr to portray theorganization the way you portrary him, for they do lots of activities devoted to protect from fruadulent gerut and help kosher gerim,
to be conituned
RAP, for the umpteenth time:
ReplyDelete1) Rav Feinstein backs Rav Tropper and so do numerous rabbis, who endorse his activities,
2) I asked you to produce the source for the *issur* of "prosetyizng" (if R. tropper would have done it)? You have failed ahundred times toproduce one lashon that it is ASSUR,
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DT:
Roni if you really feel that there is no issur with this - please get R' Tropper's authorization to say in his name that EJF is proselytizing and that there is no issur involved. I think that he will not do this for the simple reason that not a single participant at his conferences will publicly say such a thing. I don't think that R' Tropper himself would make a public announcement to that effect - even though he clearly agrees with you. Why not?
Why the reticence about telling the truth?
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DT: For the thousandth time (that you repeat these charges):
1) The point is that there is no 8HALACHIK ISSUR* to prosetyze. it does not mean that this would be wise to do on a regular basis. IT does not mean that JEws have not abstained from doing so. Therefore Rav REuven would not come out in writing stating something is proper oni it's own right when by itself it would not be proper. However, and listen to this however (As we have repeated a thousand times) if there is a higher need (as Rav MOshe stated regarding the issurof leshem ishut) Mitzvoh raboh" then there is even a heter to change from the absetention and custom on this issue. Howeve,r Rav Revuen will not come in writing writing that might have a connotation that in and of itself this is mutar. LEt me put in another way: Let's say something is "Dchuyoh" for some other need, one might be careful not to state that there is no problem with the practice in general since in general there would a problem but it is overriden by a higher need.
In short: 1) prosetyzing is not an *issur*, 2) In general it is improper but in certain situations it is overrriden!
Roni:
ReplyDelete3) RAv Tropper stops the fake covnersions by the fake dayanim one of which is Bomzer, the one who conerts and becomes partners with your buddies, they do the ACTUAL PROSETYZING OF THE EREV RAV, A LA UNCLE TOM'S NEHPEW (THE ONE ARRESTED BY POLICE RECENTLY) ,
DT: You keep repeating this over and over again. You have never established that R' Bomzer's conversions are fake. You have never shown that his converts have anything to do with the Erev Rav. [If you get the Hebrew original I might modify that statement] You do seem to have a problem with the nephew - though you have never produced any solid evidence supporting your tirades.
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ROni: I can't beleive you! there is a letter which is NOT FORGED by ten rabbonim who had the courage to come out against this fake dayan and even Rav SOlovetichik and Burstein clarfiied in their letter that bomzer makes some of the gerim without any kabbalat mitzvot and you tell me that i haven;t produced any proof?
You tell me that the goya relative of uncle tom is not a proof of fake gerus for money? Are you coming from jupiter as tyou other gilgul?
you cme out banging on Tropper for two years without any beggining of of basis that he must follow the shitoh of Rav Sternbuch and not Rav Feinstein which gives YOU ZERO JUSTIFICATION to fight Tropper! and you have produced not one cent ilia of evidence that you are entitled to attack man that has full baking of Rav Feinstein and you deny me the right to fight the fraud of something that I produced to you, the very least the english letter by Rav Burstein and Solveitchik and if you are TRUE PERSON you will acknowledged the same about the english letter signed by the other rabbonim against fake gerut that you are supporting? You mean that the goya is Jewish? that bomzer and the enablers did not do for money?
I know of many fake gerim that this man has performed
Roni
ReplyDelete4) Rav Tropper will be commended forever for the favor he does to klal yisroel for minimizing those fraudulent fake conversions.
DT:
Havent seen any evidence that the above is true. In fact I have a letter from a distinguished Rav who asserts that one of R' Tropper's distinugished rabbis that is quoted as a big supporter of R'Tropper does conversions for money.
I'll agree that EJF is a lot of sound and fury - but I am not convinced of the positive significance of this.
Roni: and I have DOZENS OF RABBONIM FROM MANY BACKGROUNDS WHO ASSERT THE OTHERWISE! they are actually involved at theprganization like Rav REuven Feinstein, Rav Eisenstein, Rav Ehrentrau all this feellows are rabbonim and gedoley torah who konw the fake gerut existing outside and support the organization because of the good they do! in making kosher gerut and in stopping bad gerut that *you* are now supporting! (like uncle tom;s nephew relative).
Roni wrote
ReplyDeleteIn short: 1) prosetyzing is not an *issur*, 2) In general it is improper but in certain situations it is overrriden!
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While we can say this also about converting for the sake of marriage - but I have clear written sources that permit this.
There is not a single statement which defends R' Tropper's acitivities by saying that "in certain stituations the improper activity of proselytization is overriden" All we have are statements where a non-Jew who was raised as a Jew and thinks he is a Jew can be converted. Where does it say that in order to promote family harmony we can pressure the non-Jewish spouse to study for conversion? Where does it say to advertise far and wide for intermarried couples to come to seminars where they can be persuaded to convert to make life easier for there kids?
Is this issue somehow more sensitive that artificial semination or discussion of intimate sexual issues?
Why is this not discussed openly but things like saving a goy's life on Shabbos or the prohibition of cheating goyim are fully discussed.
Roni wrote
ReplyDeleteIn short: 1) prosetyzing is not an *issur*, 2) In general it is improper but in certain situations it is overrriden!
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While we can say this also about converting for the sake of marriage - but I have clear written sources that permit this.
Roni:madoch you have recorded sources to override an issur that is recorded in sO (but not an issur barur) that directs to check the convert if it doibng leshemishut, KAL VECHOMER BEN BNOY SHEL KAL VECHOMER for something that is NOT RECORDED AT ALL IN sO (and not even merumaz in talmud as anissur)!
"There is not a single statement which defends R' Tropper's acitivities by saying that "in certain stituations the improper activity of proselytization is overriden" All we have are statements where a non-Jew who was raised as a Jew and thinks he is a Jew can be converted. Where does it say that in order to promote family harmony we can pressure the non-Jewish spouse to study for conversion?"
ReplyDeleteIt says: that to prevent the jew from doing an acvera of living with a non jew we can override the issur of leshem ishut! It says that for takant hashovim one can override this issur! mefurash! Why do you decide to "embelish" AND CHANGE THE FACTS BY WRITING "PRESSURE" the non jewish souse to study for conversion? Where do they "pressure"? It is all your narishe twistings of facts! What hacks you about "harmonyy"? You know who does for hamr$$NY : your buddy bomzer!
In shport: 1) there is no "issur barur" to prosetyze. Not recorded ANYWHERE. 2) an issur sheynoh barur of covnersion is permitted in order to save from an issur to live with a non jew, for takanat hashavim, #0 BUT THERE IS NO HETER TO COVENRT WITHOUT KABBALAT MITSVOT! it is brining erev rav into klal yisroel!
dt: "Where does it say to advertise far and wide for intermarried couples to come to seminars where they can be persuaded to convert to make life easier for there kids?"
ReplyDeleteRoni: where does it say an ISSUR BARUR that one is allowed to? And Actually Rav Elyashiv is recorded by Rav Zilberstein to say that one can and it is proper to have the children in school (even ove issur of teaching goyishe children) in order that they convert and cause the parent to convert! He holds it is a great mitzvah for the kids as well!
And while we are it: Why would Rav Moshe hold that it is a good thing to cause the covnersion of those children of paretns who were converted reform (zero conversion) when they are goyim gmurim? Where did Rav Moshe get that one may prosetyzie to make the lifeof the children better or that the children be jewish?
but one thing: Rav Moshe clearly disavowed himself from any fake gerut and any gerut where there is a umdenah dmnuchach that there is no real kabalah he considered them goyim!
Roni:
ReplyDeleteAnd while we are it: Why would Rav Moshe hold that it is a good thing to cause the covnersion of those children of paretns who were converted reform (zero conversion) when they are goyim gmurim? Where did Rav Moshe get that one may prosetyzie to make the lifeof the children better or that the children be jewish?
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You seem to be forgetting what Rav Moshe said. He noted that those such as the Ethiopians who believed themself to be Jewish and thus presented the problem of intermarriage because of that believe were better converted.
Non-Jewish children attending a day school and think they are Jewish are encouraged to convert.
Similarly if a person is convinced that they are Jewish because their mother had a reform conversion or their father was Jewish and they think that they are Jewish it is acceptable to allow them to convert by not pushing them away or even to encouraging them.
That is not what Tropper is doing. He solicits people who know that they are not Jewish and applies pressure. You apparently didn't read his interview in Mishpacha where he describes that it is amazing that when the non-Jewish spouse is persuaded to take courses in Judaism to facilliate her husband become a baal teshuva - that she actually realizes after awhile that it is nice and that she "really" wants to convert. She did not take the intitiative and she needed to be persuaded "pressured" to take the course. You might read the early posts on this blog from someone in Tropper's program and his description of how he pressured his wife to participate.
Roni:madoch you have recorded sources to override an issur that is recorded in sO (but not an issur barur) that directs to check the convert if it doibng leshemishut, KAL VECHOMER BEN BNOY SHEL KAL VECHOMER for something that is NOT RECORDED AT ALL IN sO (and not even merumaz in talmud as anissur)!
ReplyDelete======================
To repeat - so Tropper would not consider it slander if I said that he told me that proselytization was a valid solution for the intermarriage problem. That he realizes that the approach initiated by the Reform movement and denounced by Orthodoxy for over 2000 years is in fact a good idea and he wholehearted supports it.
If it is a recognized solution than he should have no problem in publicly acknowledging it. Why can't Rav Reuven write a teshuva - "the values of proselytization for dealling with intermarriage"?
I'll be glad to to publicize that R' Tropper finally acknowledges that the claims I have stated against EJF for two years are in fact true...
Roni:
ReplyDeleteAnd while we are it: Why would Rav Moshe hold that it is a good thing to cause the covnersion of those children of paretns who were converted reform (zero conversion) when they are goyim gmurim? Where did Rav Moshe get that one may prosetyzie to make the lifeof the children better or that the children be jewish?
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You seem to be forgetting what Rav Moshe said. He noted that those such as the Ethiopians who believed themself to be Jewish and thus presented the problem of intermarriage because of that believe were better converted.
actually talk about a teshuva about children of reform gerut. But it it the same nonetheless: And it does not make your case better than Rav Tropper's: If there is an ISSUR to prosetyze, and encourage to convert IE TO PUSH SOMEONE WHO IS GOY TO COVNERT then why does it matter that the person thinks he is Jewish for the sake of "intermarriage"? Where do you push away an issur for this? And furthermore: Many of reform converts do know that they are not accepted jewish by other jews!
Eloh may: because the concern that someone will marry them, ie. intermarriage and live beissur chomur is docheh the non issur barur of proeltyzing!
Non-Jewish children attending a day school and think they are Jewish are encouraged to convert.
And what is more mind boggling that you think that what Rav Tropper does (which is NOT to "pressure" a new falsehood invented by you) is facilitate and allow the non jewish spouse to expl;ore that avenue, WITH GENUINE WILL TO REALLY LIVE BY TORAH AND MTIZVOH TO BE WORSE THAN A QUICK FIX TO THE CHILD OF THE REFORM CONVERTR a goy gamur to sprinkle waters and make any better?
I don't have to read the critics of your blog to twist what really happens to dozens of families; i know some first hand; what they do is teach the beauty of yiddishkeyt to see if the person really wants to keep torah and mtizvot! IT IS SOMETHING NONE OF THE MEGAYRIM DO! and al achas kamoh vekamoh the opposite of your buddy the fraud does!
Roni:madoch you have recorded sources to override an issur that is recorded in sO (but not an issur barur) that directs to check the convert if it doibng leshemishut, KAL VECHOMER BEN BNOY SHEL KAL VECHOMER for something that is NOT RECORDED AT ALL IN sO (and not even merumaz in talmud as anissur)!
ReplyDelete======================
DT:To repeat - so Tropper would not consider it slander if I said that he told me that proselytization was a valid solution for the intermarriage problem. That he realizes that the approach initiated by the Reform movement and denounced by Orthodoxy for over 2000 years is in fact a good idea and he wholehearted supports it.
Roni: And to repeat: a) It is SLANDER WHEN you use FALSE WORDS like PROSETYZING and the rest of the sentence you used to falsely portray WHAT REALLY HAPPENS (which is to encourage those who would REALLY BE INTERSTED IN GIVING UP THEIR PREVIOUS LFIESTYLE -AS OPPOSED TO THE GIMICKS DONE BY THE FAKE JUDGES- , 2)It is slander when you make FALSE statments "DENOUNCED BY ORTHODOXY 2000 YEARS AGO", there is NO record of your hyperbole in shas and posskim!
But yet, Rav Reuven would not write a teshuva that others (reform) and you would twist it to mean that what they are saying is right! and to have it writing that this is a lechtchila approach.
And after two years of harranging a man for false lies WHILE RECENTLY COVERING UP FOR THOSE WHO BRING EREV RAV (RACHMNOH LITZLON) FOR E$$NAN ZONAH shows how wrong you were and are, that instead of realizing that Rav Tropper didthe beiggest favour to am yisroel to minimize the fake gerim and instead of having and hearing from you soemthing about that, something that RHARAV MOSHE WROTE ABOUT IT IN HIS TESHUVOT FOR DECADES YOU ARE MUM ON THAT AND INSTEAD INVENTED A NEW "ISSUR " THAT DIDN'T EXIST THAT DIDN'T EXIST AND THEREBY YOU ARE ACTUALLY HELPING THOSE WHO BRING THE EREV RAV TO BRING MORE GOYIM for they get the wrong message that the introducers of the erev rav are fine. you are so blind about this issue, that you mannaged recently to obfuscate the real problem and called the problem of reform gerut as "prosetyzing"?!
Roni wrote:
ReplyDeleteI know of many fake gerim that this man has performed
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Do you have idea how seriously the testimony of a person who is afraid to reveal his identity is taken? Do you understand how seriously the testimony of a stranger is taken? So if an anonyomous stranger asks me to really really believe what he is saying - do you realize how serious I take it?
Roni wrote:
ReplyDeleteI know of many fake gerim that this man has performed
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Do you have idea how seriously the testimony of a person who is afraid to reveal his identity is taken? Do you understand how seriously the testimony of a stranger is taken? So if an anonyomous stranger asks me to really really believe what he is saying - do you realize how serious I take it?
ROni: You hack a tcheynick from head to toe! You know about the letter that Rabbonim came out with messirus nefesh (to be terrorized by people like your partners on this blog) and came out with their name against Bomzer! Rav SOloveitchik and Burstein acknowwledged this in their clarification! We already have real eyduss and gmar din by rabbonim about it! and everyone knows that bomzer did uncle's tom's messianic realtive's wife (the one who was recently in trouble with the police) and it is commonk onwlefdge that she did not undergo basic kabbalat hamitzvot and it is known that he did it for money!
So for common knowledge and for outsiders we have much more than your hear says and twists falsehood against Rav Tropper.
I am onlydding to you, who knowns all the above from before, that you should not try to seel me a bill of goods about the gerim of tropper (that you malign without proof by Beis Din! hearing both sides!) when I know your sources and I know about bomzer's first hand so I have the right and the obligation to alert the public and to defend a man you wrongly defamed for two years!
Roni admits a few times, like these three times about seeking out goyim hitched to Jews and trying to make them into ejf geirimlach (proselytization) that: "Rav REuven would not come out in writing stating something is proper oni it's own right when by itself it would not be proper" and "Rav Revuen will not come in writing writing that might have a connotation that in and of itself this is mutar" and "Howeve,r Rav Revuen will not come in writing writing that might have a connotation that in and of itself this is mutar" therefore why are we having this discussion at all when all Roni/Tropper can do is offer up hevel havolim and ludicrous pipulei shel sheker that not even Tropper would dare publish on his own blog (where he spends his time talking to himself), so why does poster Roni/Tropper come here at all?
ReplyDeleteHe's only here to waste everyone's time, create distractions and offend and intimidate. I a nutshell waht poster Roni/Tropper are doing here is acting like an Internet TROLL ("In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.") as they spend their time FLAMING ("Flaming is a hostile and insulting interaction between Internet users. Flaming usually occurs in the social context of a discussion board, Internet Relay Chat (IRC), by e-mail or on Video-sharing websites. An Internet user typically generates a flame response to other posts or users posting on a site, and such a response is usually not constructive, does not clarify a discussion, and does not persuade others. Sometimes, flamers attempt to assert their authority, or establish a position of superiority over other users. Other times, a flamer is simply an individual who believes he or she carries the only valid opinion. This leads him or her to personally attack those who disagree. In some cases, flamers wish to upset and offend other members of the forum, in which case they can be called "trolls".") in the hope of of taking the heat off Tropper and rescuing EJF as it is falls earthward as the truth catches up with it.
RAP writes: "Roni admits a few times, like these three times about seeking out goyim hitched to Jews and trying to make them into ejf geirimlach (proselytization) that: "Rav REuven would not come out in writing stating something is proper oni it's own right when by itself it would not be proper" and "Rav Revuen will not come in writing writing that might have a connotation that in and of itself this is mutar" and "Howeve,r Rav Revuen will not come in writing writing that might have a connotation that in and of itself this is mutar"
ReplyDeleteSo then Rap has agevaldike kashya: "therefore why are we having this discussion at all when all Roni/Tropper can do is offer up hevel havolim and ludicrous pipulei shel sheker that not even Tropper would dare publish on his own blog (where he spends his time talking to himself), so why does poster Roni/Tropper come here at all? "
Roni: a) I come here to declare that you ARE A FAKE AND A FRAUD! that b) there are things that are mutar in the circumsntace but they will not write it to pelase RAP to defame him more than he has defamed with the utter chutzpah RAv Reuvemn, 3) To ask you and Dt and all the shemoss hamistaaffim mehem: WHERE IS THE SOURCE FOR THE "ISSUR GAMUR" so that it legitimizes your lynching of a person? and on and on mroe questions on you!
And at the same time I come to defend Rav tropper for doing the greatest service to klal yisroel in issues of gerut which protects us from those gerut THAT YOU DT COVERUP AND DEFEND! THOSE EREV RAV that are borught into klal yisdroel under your wings! This is the real ISSUR GAMUR THAT RAV MOSHE, AND ALL RABBONI9M MUVHAKIM HAVE FOUNGHT ION THE PAST CENTURY!
I come to flame at those who flame and express their sinas chinam at a person with the most vehement vicious and malicious attacks!
I am still waiting where is the ISSUR GAMUR to "prosetyze" that you think that it warrants the defamation of a person? Where do you get the krumme notion to state that a reform rabib's conversion is problematic because it "prosetyzes"?
RAP writes: "Roni admits a few times, like these three times about seeking out goyim hitched to Jews and trying to make them into ejf geirimlach (proselytization) that: "Rav REuven would not come out in writing stating something is proper oni it's own right when by itself it would not be proper" and "Rav Revuen will not come in writing writing that might have a connotation that in and of itself this is mutar" and "Howeve,r Rav Revuen will not come in writing writing that might have a connotation that in and of itself this is mutar"
ReplyDeleteSo then Rap has agevaldike kashya: "therefore why are we having this discussion at all when all Roni/Tropper can do is offer up hevel havolim and ludicrous pipulei shel sheker that not even Tropper would dare publish on his own blog (where he spends his time talking to himself), so why does poster Roni/Tropper come here at all? "
Roni: a) I come here to declare that you ARE A FAKE AND A FRAUD! that b) there are things that are mutar in the circumsntace but they will not write it to pelase RAP to defame him more than he has defamed with the utter chutzpah RAv Reuvemn, 3) To ask you and Dt and all the shemoss hamistaaffim mehem: WHERE IS THE SOURCE FOR THE "ISSUR GAMUR" so that it legitimizes your lynching of a person? and on and on mroe questions on you!
And at the same time I come to defend Rav tropper for doing the greatest service to klal yisroel in issues of gerut which protects us from those gerut THAT YOU DT COVERUP AND DEFEND! THOSE EREV RAV that are borught into klal yisdroel under your wings! This is the real ISSUR GAMUR THAT RAV MOSHE, AND ALL RABBONI9M MUVHAKIM HAVE FOUNGHT ION THE PAST CENTURY!
I come to flame at those who flame and express their sinas chinam at a person with the most vehement vicious and malicious attacks!
I am still waiting where is the ISSUR GAMUR to "prosetyze" that you think that it warrants the defamation of a person? Where do you get the krumme notion to state that a reform rabib's conversion is problematic because it "prosetyzes"?
Roni wrote
ReplyDeleteI come to flame at those who flame and express their sinas chinam at a person with the most vehement vicious and malicious attacks!
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Roni the only reason I haven't banned you from this blog is because I have been told by those who call me to ask about EJF that if Tropper has a defender like Roni then there must be something to my claims. You think you are defending Tropper - but with defenders like you... You make my work a lot easier.
Of course I can't give you all the credit - R' Tropper's inane comments on his blog also help a tremendous amount.
DT,
ReplyDeleteREst assured that I say the same of you: I think tomyself why bother to defend a just person by someone who for whatever reason spews so much hate at him? Then IO though to myself, maybe it's kday because this defends Rav Tropper when everyone sees that there is something irrational behind the irrational creation of a blog devoted against Rav Tropper. It helps to defend him! Continue the job of defending him with your ongoing attacks at him!
Btw, why do you defend RAP in *this* post wehen he does come up with the most hateful posts against rav tropper? Is there some bevuah debavuha between both of you?
And rest assured, for family obligations I will in the near future not be able to help you defend Rav Tropper, by my participation here. So, we'll have to delay it for a future time.
Roni wrote:
ReplyDeleteAnd rest assured, for family obligations I will in the near future not be able to help you defend Rav Tropper, by my participation here. So, we'll have to delay it for a future time.
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Hope the family obligations are for a simcha. Looking forward to your continued participation.
Roni asks: "WHERE IS THE SOURCE FOR THE "ISSUR GAMUR""
ReplyDeleteIn the latest Mishpacha magazine there is an article about the last minute drama to stop the bulldozing and destruction by the Israeli Army and goverenment of the emptied 24 Gaza shulls and yeshivas following the unilatarel pullout.
Rabbi Metzger (Ashkenazi Chief rabbi) and Rabbi Weiss (Chief Chaplain of the Israeli army) had already given the green light it seems according to Mishpacha, but at the last minute a number of rabbonim all over the world woke up and fought to preserve the shull buildings and to stop the Israeli government allowing the army to blow up shulls.
At one point Rav Simcha Kook came before the Israeli supreme court to plead:
"'Have mercy on us, have mercy on this nation; people all over the world will witness bulldozers with the State of Israel's emblem destroying shuls! How will this be viewed? This is a precedent that cannot be allowed to happen...The honor of Am Yisrael is at stake here. Non-Jews will tell each other that they have never seen a nation so contemptible that it destroys its own places of worship...It will be devastating if in the State of Israel, the honorable judges will sanction the destruction of the shulls with our very own hands.' ... Three days prior, Rav Kook spoke before a meeting of the Knesset Constitution, Law and Justice Committee: 'One lawyer asked me where it says in halachah that a Jew must not destroy a shul. I told him it isn't written, because there was never such a case. Since the zkeinim in the desert, the Neviim, Tannaim, Amoraim, Savoraim, Geonim, Rishonim, and Achronim, until our times, such a question was never posed to the chachamim. This is the first time in the history of Am Yisrael that such a question is beinbg placed before gedolei Yisrael'."
In the end Rav Amar wrote a letter, endorsed by Rav Eliashiv, opposing the destruction of the shulls. But the event above illustrates the type of diabolical klotz "kashye" that poster Roni/Tropper asks, "WHERE IS THE SOURCE FOR THE "ISSUR GAMUR" to prohibit proselytization and the answer to that is as simple and profound as the answer that Rav Simcha Kook gave to the Knesset committee when the krumme lawyer asked him: "where does it say in Halacha that you cannot demolish shulls?" because for real ehriliche Torah-observant God-fearing Jews some things are so way out and unthinkable and have never been dreamed of or practiced by any generation of Yidden with no justification in any Chazal, that to even think of such things is abnormal and beyond belief and simply CRAZY!
Yet Roni/Poster thinks it's perfectly "normal" to pose such klotz kashyes shel hevel wishing (day-dreaming is a better word) to "justify" reaching out to millions of goyim hitched to secular Jews who have long abandoned any shred of Judaism in the hope of creating a new cadre of ejf trained geirimlach commanded and controlled by field marshal tropper.
The last time such a thing was tried in recent history was with the Reform movement's officially sanctioning and "kashering" patrilineal descent that exempts children of gentile women hitched to Jews from getting even nominal conversions for them and their offspring if the father alone is Jewish that created a cataclysmic schism with the rest of Jewry once and for all. ...
Now if all EJF wanted was simply to raise awarenees of the need for higher standards in conversions, like there are Torah organizations devoted to raising awareness of the needs of the seriously sick, of agunos, or of raising kashrus standards that would be fine and dandy, BUT as EJF's own propaganda and infomercials have repeatedly and openly blared and declared, that what EJF wants is MUCH, MUCH more than just raising "universal" standards, it also wants to actively and pro-actively run to and reach out to and sponsor events for 100% gentiles millions of them hitched to Jews and convince them to convert as if this was just another "innocent chapter" in the kiruv rechokim movement, which it is far from being.
ReplyDeleteWhile indeed things have come to a crtical cross-roads in the world of kiruv, but EJF has chosen to go down a dangerous path of proselytization to the gentiles dragging many unsuspecting Haredi rabbis into its web of lies and deception, unheard of and never done before, which is why Roni/Tropper can can come up with his silly klotz kashyes, thinking he has presented one of those "gotcha" moments, when all he does is reveal how krum and off the derech of genuine Halacha that is here to guard Klal Yisroel from proselytization and NOT to be twisted like putty to sell Judaism to gentiles as if it was a PR product by LUBICOM or whatnot to promote EJF's proselytization to gentiles as Roni/Tropper in his defense of EJF's twisted and misbegoten agenda has gone.
Roni/Tropper protesteth too much!
Rav Bomzer probably brought more Jews to yiddisket with sometimes very lenient conversions but with darchi noam than Tropper with 'all or nothing Judaism'. People got turned off from Judaism when Tropper told them they cannot go to college or to keep in touch with their non-orthodox parents.
ReplyDeleteIntermarried couples gave up Orthodox conversion when encountered Roni/Tropper controlling behaviour and fear than if one day she goes with her friends from Avenue J. to hotel in St, Martin and forget to cover her Tropper will revoke her conversion.
Time runnig out,
ReplyDeletemt (rb)
"Rav Bomzer probably brought more Jews to yiddisket with sometimes very lenient conversions but with darchi noam"
thousand s of erev rav without kabbalat hamizvot, a la the goya of unclle tom's wife
\"Tropper with 'all or nothing Judaism'. People got turned off from Judaism when Tropper "
Roni: that is why you and your buddies are afraid that he is ACTUALLY successful TO MANY PEOPLE and that is why you and other speak from the other side of your mouth about him "prosetyzing";
then you write "Intermarried couples gave up Orthodox conversion " I thought Dt and his shade RAP and you complain about "prosetyzing" when actually he *discourages* fake conversions.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/broward/sfl-guma-aguiar-arrest-b082409,0,1771951.story
ReplyDeleteRoni says: "then you write "Intermarried couples gave up Orthodox conversion " I thought Dt and his shade RAP and you complain about "prosetyzing" when actually he *discourages* fake conversions."
ReplyDeleteAs usual it is YOU making what you would call a mishkabibel sour chollent about things and posters that have no connection to each other.
By now it should be very obvious that the "Monsey Tzadik", and Rabbi Eidensohn/da'as torah, and RaP have absolutely nothing to do with each other and that from all their posts it's pretty obvious that they have absolutely nothing to do with conversions in any way.
The only thing they have in common is concern about Tropper's and EJF goals and activities, but that you insist in misconstruing as being "supportive" of others (in this case Tropper's imagined "enemies" Nixonian-style) when that is not the point, just that posters are pointing out the differences in style and results from the way Tropper talks and operates.
Certainly Rabbi Eidensohn/da'as torah and RaP are in no way connected and they are not "endorsing" anyone else simply because they ask questions and seek clrafications from Tropper and EJF.
This is just a blog to discuss and debate issues and it's definitely not an "us vs. them" or the "all or nothing" paranoid world that Tropper lives in.