From 2008
The fact that we have two anonymous commentators on this blog claiming to speak for Eternal Jewish Family raises the obvious question - why can't EJF speak openly on the public record. Are they afraid of providing a genuine accounting of their activities?
1) I started blogging about EJF because the Bedatz was unable to get clear answers concerning the halachic basis of EJF's activities. The two letters from the Bedatz strongly criticizing EJF were simply the result of Rabbi Tropper's arrogant refusal to clarify the nature and basis of his operations.
2) I had an intensive email correspondence with Rabbi Tropper in which my questions were answered with - "It's in the Igros Moshe! Why don't you use the Yad Moshe index to find the answers?" When I replied that Rav Moshe does not write in the Igros Moshe that it is permitted to pursue or activiely persuade someone to convert - just because they are intermarried - I was told to contact Rav Reuven Feinstein but that I should wait until he calmed down from being upset about my questions. I was also given the astonishing response of "Why is it prohibited". In short I was given the run around concerning some very basic halachic issues.
3) The obsessive secrecy is also reflected in the fact that they used to have a manual describing their proceduces and halachic bases but this was discontinued two years ago because it wasn't clear. Why after two years they still don't have an official manual is very puzzling.
4) The paranoia of EJF was manifest in a nasty slur against me that was gratuitously added to the response to an request for advice regarding a problem in conversion. The person who sent the question to EJF mentioned that I had recommended that they ask EJF. The slur questioned my integrity and grossly misread material contained in my sefer Daas Torah
5) An additional example of EJF paranoia was told to me by Rav Sternuch shlita. "EJF is convinced that you have manipulated me and the Bedatz organization to attack them because of Rav Eisenstein's statement that those who believe the universe is more than 6000 years old are kofrim and their geirus is no good. They believe that you think the world is more than 6000 years old so you have to destroy them." While this sounds unbelievable but the letters I received from Rabbi Tropper contained repeated demands that I reveal to him and to Rav Reuven Feinstein the evidence I used to convince the Bedatz to turn against EJF.
6) Why doesn't EJF have written letters of support from the gedolim that they claim are supporting them?
7)Why are there no written teshuvos from these gedolim explaining the legitimacy of spending millions of dollars to persuade the nonJewish spouse to convert?
8) Where are the list of rabbis of EJF who do the work of supervising and certifying the rabbinic courts that are acceptable to do geirus?
9) Why does Rabbbi Tropper repeatedly deny he is involved in proselytizing when he acknowledges doing this in the interview in Mishpocha magazine which I translated and put on this blog. To say that proselytizing an intermarried couple is not proselytizing is to make words meaningless.
10) Why is EJF working at apparently contradictory goals of raising standards and making it harder to convert at the same time actively trying to convince the non-Jewish spouse to convert?
There are two active anonymous commentators to this blog who have asserted that they are accurately expressing the view of EJF. [No verification or letter from Rabbi Tropper concerning either of them] They have seriously attempted to clarify our questions and to answer important concerns. For example one of them asserted that EJF was not interested in converting descendants of Marranos. They also hinted that EJF might soon be producing a letter of support signed by the gedolim who are purported to support it.
Why does EJF rely on anonymous spokesmen? What are they hiding? Or is EJF just so arrogant that they don't feel it necessary to justify anything they do? In other words are these individuals actual spokesmen who are in fact representing Rabbi Tropper - but he doesn't want their identity revealed? Or are they self-appointed representatives because Rabbi Tropper doesn't feel the need to explain the true nature of his operations. If they are true representatives - why are they anonymous? If they are not representatives - why doesn't Rabbi Tropper want to clarify and justify what he is doing?
1) I started blogging about EJF because the Bedatz was unable to get clear answers concerning the halachic basis of EJF's activities. The two letters from the Bedatz strongly criticizing EJF were simply the result of Rabbi Tropper's arrogant refusal to clarify the nature and basis of his operations.
2) I had an intensive email correspondence with Rabbi Tropper in which my questions were answered with - "It's in the Igros Moshe! Why don't you use the Yad Moshe index to find the answers?" When I replied that Rav Moshe does not write in the Igros Moshe that it is permitted to pursue or activiely persuade someone to convert - just because they are intermarried - I was told to contact Rav Reuven Feinstein but that I should wait until he calmed down from being upset about my questions. I was also given the astonishing response of "Why is it prohibited". In short I was given the run around concerning some very basic halachic issues.
3) The obsessive secrecy is also reflected in the fact that they used to have a manual describing their proceduces and halachic bases but this was discontinued two years ago because it wasn't clear. Why after two years they still don't have an official manual is very puzzling.
4) The paranoia of EJF was manifest in a nasty slur against me that was gratuitously added to the response to an request for advice regarding a problem in conversion. The person who sent the question to EJF mentioned that I had recommended that they ask EJF. The slur questioned my integrity and grossly misread material contained in my sefer Daas Torah
5) An additional example of EJF paranoia was told to me by Rav Sternuch shlita. "EJF is convinced that you have manipulated me and the Bedatz organization to attack them because of Rav Eisenstein's statement that those who believe the universe is more than 6000 years old are kofrim and their geirus is no good. They believe that you think the world is more than 6000 years old so you have to destroy them." While this sounds unbelievable but the letters I received from Rabbi Tropper contained repeated demands that I reveal to him and to Rav Reuven Feinstein the evidence I used to convince the Bedatz to turn against EJF.
6) Why doesn't EJF have written letters of support from the gedolim that they claim are supporting them?
7)Why are there no written teshuvos from these gedolim explaining the legitimacy of spending millions of dollars to persuade the nonJewish spouse to convert?
8) Where are the list of rabbis of EJF who do the work of supervising and certifying the rabbinic courts that are acceptable to do geirus?
9) Why does Rabbbi Tropper repeatedly deny he is involved in proselytizing when he acknowledges doing this in the interview in Mishpocha magazine which I translated and put on this blog. To say that proselytizing an intermarried couple is not proselytizing is to make words meaningless.
10) Why is EJF working at apparently contradictory goals of raising standards and making it harder to convert at the same time actively trying to convince the non-Jewish spouse to convert?
There are two active anonymous commentators to this blog who have asserted that they are accurately expressing the view of EJF. [No verification or letter from Rabbi Tropper concerning either of them] They have seriously attempted to clarify our questions and to answer important concerns. For example one of them asserted that EJF was not interested in converting descendants of Marranos. They also hinted that EJF might soon be producing a letter of support signed by the gedolim who are purported to support it.
Why does EJF rely on anonymous spokesmen? What are they hiding? Or is EJF just so arrogant that they don't feel it necessary to justify anything they do? In other words are these individuals actual spokesmen who are in fact representing Rabbi Tropper - but he doesn't want their identity revealed? Or are they self-appointed representatives because Rabbi Tropper doesn't feel the need to explain the true nature of his operations. If they are true representatives - why are they anonymous? If they are not representatives - why doesn't Rabbi Tropper want to clarify and justify what he is doing?
The answer to all of your questions is very simple:
ReplyDelete1. The US has had an intermarriage rate of over 50% for the past 2-3 generations so the number of halachic Jews has dwindled to a fraction of those who identify themselves as "American Jews".
2. At the same time, the majority of religious young men have been convinced to eschew secular education in favor of "learning" and few young Jewish men have more than a 6th grade secular education leaving them with no practical way to make a living. Greater and greater numbers of these young men are entering "chinuch", "Rabbonus" and "kiruv" than ever while the number of halachic Jews continues to dwindle.
3. The cost of living in the US has gotten OUT OF SIGHT in the past several years. Health insurance premiums, for example, are about 15k per year for a family and day school tuition is up to 20k per child in the NY metro area. Few schools can afford to give substantial tuition breaks because the teachers need to be paid also and the number of benefactors are down. Groceries have gone up 15% in one year alone and everyone is paying tax bills they cannot believe.
Rav Tropper's situation, I am sure is no different than the situation of thousands of other frum families in Monsey who need 150k per year to support a MIDDLE CLASS life. In Rav Tropper's case he has TWO families and TWO households to support, not just one.
So, it seems Rabbi Eidensohn you have eaten into his loaf of bread. This should explain the defensiveness, the deception early on (bait and switch) of Rav Elyashiv shlita who was told that he was supporting "higher standards of conversion" when in fact the Rav's name was used to promote Reform "conversion for marriage", and the "rat in a maze" like alternatively frightened, elusive and stalking behavior you have been experiencing from Rav Tropper.
In other words Rav Tropper needs to protect his parnassa and his turf. If a "big fish" like Tom Kaplan ever gets wind that his money is being used for something that is not quite halachically acceptable, he could take his tzedaka business elsewhere. And where would that leave Rav Tropper and his new Baala Teshuva wife from an affluent family who is used to the "better things in life"?
My guess would be that it would not include feasting on kosher foie gras while sipping fig liqueur at 5 star kosher retreats.
But honestly, we cannot blame the Rav Troppers of the world. They are businessmen, a time honored Jewish occupation. It is the American "Rabbinate-for-hire", "Halacha-to-the biggest-donor" system that produces these mercenaries. In countries where the Rabbis are/were State employees on a fixed salary we do not see many conversions (or a multi million dollar a year kashrus "industry" either).
I can introduce you to dozens of "Rav Troppers", each with their respective "big fish" (both singular and plural), and each with their own unique "sect-that-resembles-Judaism".
When faced with innocent questions of halachic basis or propriety each of these "Rav Troppers" will react in much the same way - that is attacks on the questioner's character, twisted quasi halachic pretzel logic, digressions and unrelated questions, elusiveness, halachic support from deceased Rabbis contacted for their Psak halacha via Ouiji board or threats of secular lawsuits for "defamation of character". In a few rare cases I have heard of "Rabbis" resorting to threats of physical violence in response to the pursuit of halachic questions.
And this is where, Rabbi Eidensohn the popular name, "Kosher Nostra", to denote the American Rabbinate, not all of the Rabbis of course, but far too many, came from.
Living in Israel you will not have to suffer your children being kicked out of yeshiva, your wife denied use of a community mikveh or your ability to receive honors in or even PRAY in a shul near your home being denied.
In America, the Rabbinate is big business and really Rabbi Eidensohn, "It's not personal, It's strictly business". Get rid of Rabbi Eidensohn and everything falls into place, just "don't get personal. Keep it business."
If anyone hands you an orange to eat in public, say no thank you", its always a sign for the assassin.
Carmella Corleone aka Jersey Girl said..
ReplyDelete"In other words Rav Tropper needs to protect his parnassa and his turf. If a "big fish" like Tom Kaplan ever gets wind that his money is being used for something that is not quite halachically acceptable, he could take his tzedaka business elsewhere. And where would that leave Rav Tropper and his new Baala Teshuva wife from an affluent family who is used to the "better things in life"?"
===============
The above comment does not reflect my views. I have typically rejected such posts in the past - but I am making an exception here. The reason for the exception is that Rabbi Tropper and EJF needs to understand that such suspicions are fairly common because of his failure to run his operation in a transparent manner. It is my genuine desire to provide a forum for EJF to refute these allegations. The answers to the questions raised against EJF should not be very hard to provide. EJF has much to gain by being more forthcoming and nothing to lose.
"Who am I to judge how a man makes a living?"
ReplyDeleteDear R' Eidensohn, shlita,
ReplyDeleteIf anyone from EJF gives you an orange you can be sure that it will be a healthful fruit, free of any chashash or orlah, tevel or sheviis, and given to you in the respectful spirit of hameivi doron l'talmid chacham.
That said, I disagree with your decision to allow the carmella corleone post. I was also very disappointed with your decision to post that negative piece on Dr. Kaplan. I was very turned off from that and you may have noticed that I have barely commented since then. I believe that once you allow such supermarket tabloid style discussion, you have lowered the level of the blog to where many Jewish blogs are: in the gutter.
You say: Why does EJF rely on anonymous spokesmen? ... In other words are these individuals actual spokesmen who are in fact representing Rabbi Tropper - but he doesn't want their identity revealed?
Speaking for myself, while I am a friend of EJF, and a volunteer who tries to help out with some things, R' Tropper has not sent me as a spokesman. Quite the opposite, he has questioned the usefulness of commenting on blogs and trying to correct errors and misimpressions on a blog. Since I have followed your [R' Eidensohn's] work over some years [Yad Moshe, Yad Yisroel, Daas Torah, many Avodah forum postings], I have a great respect for you. I thought that, even though this is a blog, it is different: It is R' Eidensohn's blog. It may be a house in a slummy neighborhood, but it is a talmid chacham's house.
But then I saw that long innuendo-filled post against Dr. Kaplan, and I said to myself: Maybe, R' Tropper was right. And as I type these words in the "Leave your comment" box just to the left of carmella corleone's miasmic jeers, I don't know if I will comment here too much longer. And that is a shame, because I think there is value in answering sincere questions about EJF and in learning from valid criticisms.
So let's return, in the meantime, to your post. You write: Or are they self-appointed representatives because Rabbi Tropper doesn't feel the need to explain the true nature of his operations... why doesn't Rabbi Tropper want to clarify and justify what he is doing?
Well, clarify and justify to whom? To this blog? As explained above, he questions the utility of that, and with carmella on my screen, I can't say he's wrong.
To the Bedatz? There I think you have a good point. If he were seeking the Bedatz's haskomah, then it would be incumbent upon him to clarify and justify his operations to their satisfaction. [I have no idea if that was ever attempted, but judging from what you have written, I would assume not.] On the other hand, if the Bedatz wants to publish an opinion on the EJF, I would suggest that, as part of their derishah and chakira, they or their people would call up talmidei chachamim who are heavily involved with EJF's operations, such as Rav Reuven Feinstein or Rav Shmiel Eliezer Stern of Rav Wosner's Beis Din, to understand what the clarifications and justifications are. This may have happened, I don't know. They may have not been satisfied with these and decided to oppose EJF. That is their prerogative.
To clarify and justify to the public at large? Well, that's exactly what I am trying to do here unofficially. Officially, they have printed a two-page spread in Hamodia and reprinted it in the Jewish Press. Also, they are working on redoing their website. My hope is that, one day, you should be able to find the clarifications and justifications you seek over there. But that two page spread was important. I suggest that you make a pdf file of it and make it available here.
You write about: to pursue or activiely persuade someone to convert and spending millions of dollars to persuade the nonJewish spouse to convert.
This is old ground. I have already written that these are moot points since EJF is not the first contact for gerus candidates. EJF deals only with referrals. Call them up and pretend to be a goy wishing to convert. They will send you to a local Rav. It is the local Rav or kiruv worker who must deal with the issues of rebuffing, admitting or pursuing a candidate for gerus. There is a lot to be said on that, but it's all moot as far as EJF's own programs.
On that point, I must add that although you write I was also given the astonishing response of "Why is it prohibited", you wrote above that you agreed that there was no prohibition!
Here it is:
In a recent intensive exchange of e-mails, I asked Rav Tropper the halachic rulings of Rav Moshe Feinstein he claims as the basis for EJF’s activities. His response was, “Why do you think it is prohibited?” This is an astounding justification for a radical break with the past. While in fact it is not explicitly prohibited – this radical innovation of spending millions of dollars to convince non‑Jews to convert presents serious dangers to the Jewish people. It requires acceptance or rejection through scholarly discussion in peer-reviewed responsa - as innovations have been justified in the past.
Daniel Eidensohn Ph.D.
Now, I agree with your point that those who reach out to gentiles in intermarriages spouses [not EJF, not EJF] need to explain what seems to be a radical innovation. But you yourself admit that they are not doing away with an explicit prohibition. That is a valid subject for discussion. Is an intermarried gentile better than a stam goy in this respect, or perhaps worse, as I suspect the Bedatz holds. Please call Rav Reuven Feinstein to discuss this [and other matters] with him. Please don't answer that you demand a written teshuvah and until he sends one out, you will not go to him. Please don't let it be a situation of "Hatziree ein biGilad, im rofei ein sham."
Now, you have an excellent point in that quote in Hebrew Mishpocha. Could you please provide the Hebrew original before I pursue that further?
I have covered several points here, directly or indirectly, and I hope that helps you and others understand EJF's stance, at least to the degree that I understand it.
Kol tuv,
amicusEJF
The post above by "carmella corleone aka jersey girl" has some truths buit also untruths mixed in.
ReplyDeleteInstead of "amicusEJF" acting self-righteous, he should respond or answer the points "she" is making and not attack "her" and certainly not the integrity or judgment of Rabbi Eidensohn who is not posting anything that is new here because anyone familiar with this "play" and its plot of characters, on and off stage, knows that "carmella corleone aka jersey girl" has spoken a number of truths that need to be said.
The only concern is that "carmella corleone aka jersey girl" should not be a malicious Internet troll out to rake the coals and raise the heat and create discomfort all around, but let us give "her" the benefit of the doubt, and unlike "amicusEJF" very foxily directing his dialogue at Dr. Eidensohn, what would have been, had he commented, and agreed or disagreed, with "carmella corleone aka jersey girl"?
So here goes with a repost of that post and with reponses commencing with "RaP" to it:
The answer to all of your questions is very simple:
1. The US has had an intermarriage rate of over 50% for the past 2-3 generations so the number of halachic Jews has dwindled to a fraction of those who identify themselves as "American Jews".
RaP: Whoa, go easy, even intermarried Jews identify as Jews. The situation in America is not like it was in Europe that once a Jew married a non-Jew it was good-bye charlie to the Jew. In America, the uniqueness of living in a tolerant society is that among many interfaith couples, it is very common that the non-Jewish spouse will agree and even ENCOURAGE the Jewish spouse to retain their Jewish religion and even agree to allow the children to be raised Jewish. This happens quite often when Jewish women marry gentile men. So there is openess and acceptance of the non-Jew in the USA. And with many Jewish men marrying non-Jewish women, they raise their kids with no religion or often the Jewish man brings his non-Jewish wife to the Reform temple and she will be welcomed but usually not convert. So that while few wish to go through any conversion, not even a Reform or Conservative one, many will participate and go to Reform and Conservative synagogues. So in the United Sates at any rate, it is still very easy to know who is and is not Jewish, as people are honest as well. The situation with Russians is different as they come from a culture of deception and lies and they just want to escape from Russia/Ukraine at any cost so many of them make up bubbe-meises about themselves and the Jewish Agency is also to blame for accepting them so easily (an ant-Charedi ploy, by the way, but a different discussion.) Bottom line, More not less people are identifying themselves as "American Jews" -- you are confusing what surveys are citing of who is and is not Jewish, but on the ground level, being "Jewish" is popular and many gentiles are jumping on board the "Jews by Choice" movement, not to mention that even to become Christian, Jews are still too loyal so that the missionaries have to deploy the appeal of "Jews for Jesus" movement and others like it to lure Jews into still thinking that they can be both Jewish and Christian siumultaneously. Actually, if you know about some of the anti-Semitic websites they are complaining that almost "everyone" in power is a "Jew" or a "Zionist" and that America is ruled by the Jews and Zionists and that it is a case of, oh well, all of America is Jewish and Zionist. So the challenge here is how Orthodox rabbis can cut through all the overgrowth and fluff and ensure that Halachic Judaism and Halachic Jews are not swamped, yes it's a fear of being swamped, and not of petering out.
2. At the same time, the majority of religious young men have been convinced to eschew secular education in favor of "learning" and few young Jewish men have more than a 6th grade secular education leaving them with no practical way to make a living. Greater and greater numbers of these young men are entering "chinuch", "Rabbonus" and "kiruv" than ever while the number of halachic Jews continues to dwindle.
RaP: Not true! The majority of religious young men all go to work. Very, very few become Torah clergy. While being in Kollel is popular for some, the majority, even if they spend one or two years in Kollel, go out to work. Among the Modern Orthodox there is no real Kollel movement they all become professionals. Among Chasidim they all go out to do any sort of work and make money. So in the Litvish yeshiva world, the minority are in Kollel. And yes, Baruch H-shem a small minority wishes to become teachers in yeshivas, and very few of them become shull rabbis or kiruv rabbis, so your assessment is way off here.
3. The cost of living in the US has gotten OUT OF SIGHT in the past several years. Health insurance premiums, for example, are about 15k per year for a family and day school tuition is up to 20k per child in the NY metro area. Few schools can afford to give substantial tuition breaks because the teachers need to be paid also and the number of benefactors are down. Groceries have gone up 15% in one year alone and everyone is paying tax bills they cannot believe.
RaP: This is 101% true and on the mark, but it is not just a problem for frum people, every respectable middle class American family with children has these same challenges, and add in that secular families must budget even more for the college education of their kids.
Rav Tropper's situation, I am sure is no different than the situation of thousands of other frum families in Monsey who need 150k per year to support a MIDDLE CLASS life. In Rav Tropper's case he has TWO families and TWO households to support, not just one.
RaP: Also 101% true. But again, any divorced man is obligated to pay alimony and support his kids, so this is not only true for a frum person.
So, it seems Rabbi Eidensohn you have eaten into his loaf of bread.
RaP: Not quite. Rabbi Eidensohn is not eating Rabbi Tropper's "bread." He may be raising uncomfortbale questions, but this is not a case of implied "stealing" or "eating into" anyone sustenance. Perhaps, it would be better to have said that Rabbi Eidensohn is doing "whistle blowing leshem shomayim" and asking the kind of questions many people have in the backs of their minds when they come across the topic of EJF.
This should explain the defensiveness, the deception early on (bait and switch) of Rav Elyashiv shlita who was told that he was supporting "higher standards of conversion" when in fact the Rav's name was used to promote Reform "conversion for marriage", and the "rat in a maze" like alternatively frightened, elusive and stalking behavior you have been experiencing from Rav Tropper.
RaP: Again, sad, but you are correct here. Rav Eliashiv is not in the geirus business, when he has indicated that he wishes to put an end to questionable Jews entering Klal Yisroel on a mass scale, and his name should never have been dragged into this subject by EJF.
In other words Rav Tropper needs to protect his parnassa and his turf. If a "big fish" like Tom Kaplan ever gets wind that his money is being used for something that is not quite halachically acceptable, he could take his tzedaka business elsewhere. And where would that leave Rav Tropper and his new Baala Teshuva wife from an affluent family who is used to the "better things in life"?
RaP: Also very true!
My guess would be that it would not include feasting on kosher foie gras while sipping fig liqueur at 5 star kosher retreats.
RaP: Poor darlings!
But honestly, we cannot blame the Rav Troppers of the world. They are businessmen, a time honored Jewish occupation. It is the American "Rabbinate-for-hire", "Halacha-to-the biggest-donor" system that produces these mercenaries.
RaP: No not quite businessmen, they are more often on power-hungry ego trips with delusions of grandeur. Quite lethal combinations. True businessmen are usually more rational, detached and dispassionate than this.
In countries where the Rabbis are/were State employees on a fixed salary we do not see many conversions (or a multi million dollar a year kashrus "industry" either).
RaP: Here you are wrong. It's no better anywhere. In England, there is an even higher intermarriage rate. The "free enterprise system" even for rabbis, with all its perils as you point out, is better than a rigid centralized command-down system where rabbis are puppets. So that while in a free system some rabbis may go off on wild goose chases and come up with cockamamy projects and organizations, on the other hand, it is also an opening for rabbis who do produce beneficial results that help the Klal. So go easy with this amd in any case it will not change in America until the coming of Mashiach.
I can introduce you to dozens of "Rav Troppers", each with their respective "big fish" (both singular and plural), and each with their own unique "sect-that-resembles-Judaism".
RaP: Sad, but true.
When faced with innocent questions of halachic basis or propriety each of these "Rav Troppers" will react in much the same way - that is attacks on the questioner's character, twisted quasi halachic pretzel logic, digressions and unrelated questions, elusiveness, halachic support from deceased Rabbis contacted for their Psak halacha via Ouiji board or threats of secular lawsuits for "defamation of character". In a few rare cases I have heard of "Rabbis" resorting to threats of physical violence in response to the pursuit of halachic questions.
RaP: All true (shamefuly and regretably).
And this is where, Rabbi Eidensohn the popular name, "Kosher Nostra", to denote the American Rabbinate, not all of the Rabbis of course, but far too many, came from.
RaP: You are getting caught up with and flying away with your own rhetoric. Cool it. The Yetzer Hora is everywhere. No system is perfect and no group of people is entirely free of sin and corruption entirely. How one deals with eruptions of corruption and responds to it is what matters, but the Soton will always find ways to disrupt and poison anything, even a group of "angelic" rabbis in England or wherever.
Living in Israel you will not have to suffer your children being kicked out of yeshiva, your wife denied use of a community mikveh or your ability to receive honors in or even PRAY in a shul near your home being denied.
RaP: True.
In America, the Rabbinate is big business and really Rabbi Eidensohn, "It's not personal, It's strictly business". Get rid of Rabbi Eidensohn and everything falls into place, just "don't get personal. Keep it business."
RaP: Unfortunately also very true.
If anyone hands you an orange to eat in public, say no thank you", its always a sign for the assassin.
RaP: Not quite, in America they burn down houses and dump bodies in rivers after beating them to a pulp. Oh, and there are accidental drownings in mikves and sudden calls from the IRS. This is not pleasant. Who said that life was?
Dear RaP,
ReplyDeleteThank you for responding to my post. I must admit that my family have become quite fond of your "blog persona".
A few things I would like to discuss a bit more however:
1."even intermarried Jews identify as Jews. "
This is the problem. We have LOTS of Goyim running around with Jewish sounding surnames. Many identify with Reform and some identify with Orthodox. Many will marry other Jews. This is an intermarriage no different than any other.
It has been estimated by some Orthodox Rabbis that as many as HALF of all ORTHODOX affiliated families in the US are personally affected by the Rabbinute's recent decisions regarding Diaspora conversions. The conversions that are being rejected are those that were done to permit intermarriage, most often a Jewish man and a Gentile woman. The Gentile children and grandchildren of these men can never convert according to many Rabbis.
This poses a HUGE problem for Rabbi X's daughter who is married to a young man, one of a large family, all of whom attended yeshiva but whose maternal grandmother is an Episcopalian. The parents thought "it will just be our little secret" when the mother put on a sheital and enrolled her kids in a black hat yeshiva.
Now there are two Rabbis whose daughters are married to these Goyim (no conversion by anyone) and one of their daughters is a Rebbetzin. Three of the marriages in that family have already been annulled. Now what happens to the young ladies who find out that they have to divorce the Gentile husbands they have been deceived into marrying and the children they will have to raise alone? What about the young men who will have to pay child support for the next 18 years for Gentile children that they were deceived into fathering?
I am personally close to FOUR families who are now facing this because their frum children married people who are not Jewish k'halacha, who are not Jewish in Israel and who are not eligible to convert to become a Jew in Israel.
(One of these is my youngest brother, another my cousin and two others are Rabbis with whom our family is close. Additionally I know two other Rabbis whose children's marriages were recently annulled because they found out during the Sheva Brachot that the spouse was a Gentile).
2. The majority of religious young men all go to work.
Please give them my contact info. Rabbi Eidensohn has it. I have a house full of daughters to marry off and it is enough that we support our own family let alone several more. So far all of the young men I am getting from the shadchanim only want to be supported whether or not they are learning.
3. "secular families must budget even more for the college education of their kids".
We have to pay to educate ours too whether they learn in Israel, go to college or continue in Yeshiva.
4."Rabbi Eidensohn is doing "whistle blowing leshem shomayim" and asking the kind of questions many people have in the backs of their minds when they come across the topic of EJF"
For sure, but I bet that if the Kaplans find out about who the Bedatz is and why they assured EJF they will be inclined to spend more on panthers and kidney disease (please its in my family too) and less on proselytizing Gentiles married to Jews. That would CERTAINLY cut into Rav Tropper's "bread" and "butter".
5. "you are getting caught up with and flying away with your own rhetoric".
You are right, I am sorry and please forgive me. My yetzer hara won out and I started to enjoy myself a little too much with the Godfather lines. I am sadly guilty of lowering the bar on this blog and will leave it to you RaP to restore the dialogue to the honorable and scholarly level it had previously attained. I will reserve my childish jokes for my children who would like me to put them to sleep right now.
Thank you again for everything you have been teaching us by contributing to this blog.
Rav elyashiv backed Yated supports ejf
ReplyDeletehttp://www.chareidi.org/archives5768/BHL68aejf.htm
Yated conveys his blessings for the ejf
So no use denying it.
The rationale was to delegitimize everything the rabbanut did, at any cost
Be it tropper
Dayan Sherman
R metzger etc.
It makes a joke of halacha. Bribing a crook to be Chief rabbi just to rule against heter mechira.