Zechus Avos (ancestral merit) - does it still exist?

Garnel Ironheart commented:

DaatTorah, I think I can help you out. The gemara says we ran out of zechus Avos a long time ago so you can put a passing footnote in and move on.

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The gemora does in fact state that zechos avos stopped sometime during the First Temple:

Shabbos(55a): Samuel said: The taw denotes, the merit of the Patriarchs is exhausted [tamah].19 R. Johanan said: The merit of the Patriarchs will confer grace [tahon].[ (20) Samuel explains the taw on the wicked; R. Johanan that on the righteous.] …. And since when has the merit of the Patriarchs been exhausted? — Rab said, Since the days of Hosea the son of Beeri, for it is written, [And now] will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and none shall deliver her out of mine hand.22 Samuel said. Since the days of Hazael, for it is said, And Hazael king of Syria oppressed Israel all the days of Jehoahaz;23 and it is written, But the Lord was gracious unto them, and had compassion upon them, and had respect unto them, because of the covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and would not destroy them, neither cast he them from his presence until now.24 R. Joshua b. Levi said: Since the days of Elijah, for it is said, And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening oblation, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, O Lord, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.25 [25) I Kings XVIII, 36. Here too this day implies a limitation.] R. Johanan said: Since the days of Hezekiah, for it is said, Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with judgement and with righteousness for henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this.26 [Isa. IX, 6. ‘The zeal, etc.’ implies, but not the merit of the Patriarchs, this being exhausted by now.]

However we have

Vayikra Rabbah(36:6):. How long did the merit of the Patriarchs endure? R. Tanhuma said in the name of R. Hiyya b. Menahma, or, as some say, R. Berekiah b. Helbo said it in the name of Rabba b. Zabda: Until Jehoahaz. This is proved by the text, But the Lord was gracious unto them, and had compassion on them... because of His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and would not destroy them... until now (II Kings XIII, 23), as much as to say, ’until now’ the merit of the Patriarchs has endured. R. Joshua b. Levi says: Until Elijah. This is proved by the text, And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening offering, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said: O Lord the God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Israel (I Kings XVIII, 36). Samuel said: Until Hosea. This is proved by the text, And now will I uncover her shame in the sight of her lovers, and none (ish) shall deliver her out of My hand (Hosea II, 12); ’ish’ in the present context signifying Abraham, as may be inferred from the citation, Now therefore restore the man's (ish) wife (Gen. XX, 7); ’ish’ also signifies Isaac, as it says, What man (ish) is this? (ib. XXIV, 65); and ’ish’ also signifies Jacob, as it says, Jacob was a quiet man--ish (ib. XXV, 27). R. Judan says: Until Hezekiah. This may be proved by the citation: That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end... The zeal of the Lord of hosts1 doth perform this (Isa. IX, 6). R. Judan b. Rabbi in the name of R. Berekiah said: If you see that the merit of the Patriarchs is failing and the merit of the Matriarchs slipping away, go and occupy yourself with benevolence [love]. This is borne out by the text, For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed; but My love shall not depart from thee (ib. LIV, 10); ’mountains’ signify the Patriarchs, ’hills’ the Matriarchs, and after that ’My love shall not depart from thee’.2 R. Acha said: The merit of the Patriarchs shall endure for ever. We shall always mention them and say: For the Lord thy God is a merciful God; He will not fail thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers, etc. (Deut. V, 31)

Ohr Zarua(2:23) says we poken like the above view of R' Acha against the view of the Bavli

However we have another Bavli which clearly states that zechus avos did not end in the First Temple. This is the incident where R' Gamliel was replace by R' Eleazar ben Azariah.

Berachos (27b ): Come, let us depose him! Whom shall we appoint instead? We can hardly appoint R. Joshua, because he is one of the parties involved. We can hardly appoint R. Akiba because perhaps Rabban Gamaliel will bring a curse on him because he has no zechus avos. Let us then appoint R. Eleazar b. Azariah, who is wise and rich and the tenth in descent from Ezra. He is wise, so that if anyone puts a question to him he will be able to answer it. He is rich, so that if occasion arises for paying court19 to Caesar he will be able to do so. He is tenth in descent from Ezra, so that he has zechus avos and he [Rabban Gamaliel] cannot bring a curse on him.

Protest against the Offensive Gay Parade - Kikar Shabbos

Rabbi Moishe Sternbuch told those participating in the right-wing rally that "even the small community gathering here is a deterring force, a few of a few is also good. This is a time of concealed faces. The L-rd must bear protest and welcome our forgiveness." He concluded his speech by saying, "They have no part in Israel and may their names be erased." The crowd then answered, "Amen".

The Yeshiva and the Bridge

In order to be more sensitive and aware of what is going on in the streets of Yerushalayim, I went with my daughter to see the String Bridge - after the official event was over. We walked from Kanfei Nesharim - passing by the Merkaz HaRav Yeshiva. The yeshiva is only a stone's throw from the bridge. This is the picture I got of the yeshiva and the bridge.

Gedolim call for protest demonstration - against Offensive Gay Parade - at Kikar Shabbos 4 P.M. today!

Gedolei Torah - call for protest gathering of prayer and repentance against the Chillul HaShem, profanation of the holy Jewish people, desecration of the Holy Land, desecration of the Holy City caused by the Parade of Tumah

This protest gathering of sanctity and prayer will take place at the same time as those who are doing the deeds of Amalek and descrecrate the Holy City.

THURSDAY 23 OF SIVAN
KIKAR SHABBOS 4 P.M.

Bring a sefer Tehilim and drinking water

Signed by:
R' Yosef Shalom Eliashiv
R' Shalom Cohen
R' Yochanon Sofer
R' Shmuel Auerbach
R' Ovadiah Yosef
R' Yitzchok Sheiner
R' Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg
R' Moshe Tzadka

A separate announcement was put out by HaRav Moshe Sternbuch, shlita

Offensive gay parade to close Jerusalem streets on Thursday

Arutz Sheva reports:
Thursday's road-closings will be less festive, though possibly no less disruptive. The police plan to close downtown streets including Agron, King David, and Emek Refaim, from 4-7 PM, to make way for the controversial gay parade. The marchers will gather near Independence Park at 4 PM, will begin parading at 5 PM towards Liberty Bell Park, and will hold a rally there at 6 PM.

Several anti-parade demonstrations are scheduled to be held in the city at around the same time, including one at the main Jaffa-Ben-Yehuda intersection at 4 PM.

Late last week, Jerusalem Mayor Uri Lupoliansky filed a petition in the Supreme Court against the parade, calling it a provocation. The Court refused to cancel the parade, and Supreme Court Justice Ayalah Procaccia even said that it was important that parades such as this "become a normal part of the routine and not arouse storms of protest each year."

Religious Knesset Members had asked that the parade at least be held in a closed area, such as a stadium, in order not to "offend the sensibilities of Jews, Moslems and Christians." Though this solution was implemented two years ago, it will not happen this time.

Anonymous claims that I don't have a clue as to what is going on in Yerushalayim

Anonymous commented on my post "Do protests corrupt our society - or strengthen i...":
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I had written:

The Shomer Emunim Rebbe told me that if a person enjoys being a kanoi - he is not allowed to be one. It is not a game for excitement.

Anonymous commented:

Except from my experience on the ground in Yerushalayim, most of the people who protest are the ones who "enjoy" it.

There are very very few who protest who actually don't draw enjoyment/excitement from it.

Put it this way, I would hazard to say (hazard as no statistics, just based on views on the ground) that a larger percentage of people who view themselves kanoim are doing it for the wrong reasons (i.e. enjoyin it) then those who go to co-ed jewish schools (as most simply think its the best school for their children, albiet they might be mistaken).

And this even in small cases, not major ones like have provoked this discussion.

For example, I was waiting with my mother in the outskirts of bnei brak once for a bus. There were some chareidim, but as it was on the outskirts it wasn't really a chareidi area, and a chiloni soldier came with what I assume was his girlfriend. They held each other and kissed. An older woman scolded them harshly. However, it wasn't just scolding, there was an air of superiority, of being happy to scold them, of getting pleasure from it, as well as affirmations from the chareidim around her.

Another example is a someone in the Mir had an issue with his baal dira, that the landlord wanted to kick them out to raise rent. R. Finkel said it was assur what the baal dira was doing. So a friend, who enjoys being a protester/nudnik was the one who stood outside when prospective renters came and told all of them "The Rosh Yeshiva says its assur". I'm not particularly arguing that this is a kanoi case and hence is wrong, I just bring it as an example of enjoying, and that the people who would tend to protest loudly are the ones who gain enjoyment on some level from it. I personally think the RY is well aware of this, and hence why the sign was up in the Mir not to protest (I also tend to think that talmidim in the Mir have the best opportunity to learn middot when compared against the other major chareidi yeshivot).

At the end of the day, I really don't think you are sensitive enough to the facts on the street and what actually happens and how the majority actually feel.

Supreme Court rejects appeal to stop offensive gay parade

YNET writes:

Efrat Weiss

The High Court of Justice rejected Monday afternoon a petition filed by right-wing activists Itamar Ben-Gvir and Baruch Marzel against holding a gay pride parade in Jerusalem.

As a result, the parade will take place as scheduled this coming Thursday.
In their ruling the judges said they took the parade's route into consideration, as well as a statement issued by the Open House organization according to which the marchers do not plan on provoking the capital's residents in any way.

The plan to hold the gay parade in Jerusalem has drawn the ire of several religious bodies. A few days ago Shas Chairman Eli Yishai, Knesset Member Uri Ariel (National Union-NRP), the United Torah Judaism party and Israel's chief rabbis demanded that the parade be called off or held in a closed venue.

This year's parade will begin in Jerusalem's Independence Park at 4 pm on June 26, and end in Liberty Bell Park with a ceremony presenting the gay community's call for equal rights, with the hope of promoting love and tolerance in the country's capital.

Mayor Uri Lupolianski recently urged the High Court to accept Ben-Gvir's petition prohibit the gay community from holding the parade in Jerusalem and described it as a "severe provocation".

In a letter to the court the mayor said, "Past experience shows that the parade greatly offends, deliberately and unnecessarily, the feelings of Jews, Muslims and Christians, who view its sheer existence, and the blatant manner in which it takes place, as a desecration of the holy city and of the values with which they were raised."

Religious parties call for offensive gay parade to be moved indoors

Yeshiva World News reports:

June 20, 2008

A letter was sent to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Attorney General Menachem Mazuz and the chief of police, calling upon them to move Thursday’s scheduled to’eva parade in Yerushalayim to an indoor venue.

The Shas, National Religious Party, United Torah Judaism and National Union Parties have joined forces in their effort, along with Israel’s chief rabbis, seeking to compel authorities to move the event to an indoor venue to prevent the chilul Hashem associated with such a happening in the streets of Yerushalayim.

(Yechiel Spira – YWN Israel)

Do protests corrupt our society - or strengthen it?

The following response raises an important issue. I do agree that demonstrations have to be done in a reasonable and dignified way and that there have been responses in the past which were totally unacceptable. However I don't think that if a person protests one issue that of necessity he loses his ability to respond differently in other situations.

There is nothing inherently wrong with protesting - though it does need clear guidelines. Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky (Emes L'Yaakov Bereishis 49:7) - who was never accused of being a fanatic - asserted that the educational system must be in the hands of zealots. As the Chazon Ish has stated, religion which lacks passion is doomed.

The examples of beating up a woman on a bus or pouring acid - are obviously totally unacceptable - but don't mean that protests are invalid. There obviously needs to be an alternative to the extremes of violent protest and the attitude of passively accepting everything.

Do you also disapprove of the civil rights demonstrations in America or the demonstrations of the labor unions which brought about radical improvements of working conditions? What about the demonstrations for freeing Russian Jews? Demonstrations have a needed place in any society - but the question is how to do it to address the concerns you raise. Ignoring offense or injustice leaves you a different person then if you protested. This is a standard point of Chazal. See Ramban to Vayikra (19:17): "You shall not hate your brother in your heart; you shall chastise your neighbor, and not allow sin on his account." Do you believe in simply turning the other cheek?

However all this is probably a moot point since Rav Sternbuch told me that the police have prohibited counter demonstrations under threat of violent beatings.

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R' Josh Waxman said...

Aside from concerns I have aired on other posts, one *principle* reason I believe this approach of protest is misguided is as follows: The parade will come and go, whether you protest or not. But the encouragement to protest, and the rhetoric used, trains people to be kannaim. After you train people to react radically in *one* instance, they are more prone to act radically in other situations.

Do you really want your fellow Jews to be kannaim, to be Pinchases, in other situations? Even *if* this present situation merits it, you have to live with these people throughout the rest of the year.

The fellow who beat up the woman for daring to sit on the mehadrin bus -- he *also* was upset that such a terrible thing was being done in his holy Yerushalayim, on his holy mehadrin bus. The fellow who poured acid on that poor girl in Beitar Illit was horrified that a temptress would go about dressed like this in Israel. The same for those who pour bleach on clothing they deem non-tzniusdik. And the chareidim who protested the showing of a nature film on a flight to Uman. And so on and so forth. Perhaps you agree to one or two cases, but I would guess not to all of them.

However, the rhetoric used is equally applicable to all those other cases. And training people to react in this way will lead to an environment in which masses of people are kannaim.

Do you think that this is a positive direction for chareidi Judaism in Israel to take?

Understanding why the offensive gay parade - in challenging G-d and His Torah - is life threatening.

I have posted a number of times already, I, II, III, IV, V VI concerning the fact that most Jews - especially in Jerusalem - are strongly offended by the gay parade which is scheduled this week. Jerusalem is the center of holiness, the heart of the Jewish nation. Because of this holiness, the gay parade was deliberately scheduled in Jerusalem.

They claim that they are enlightened harbinger's of openness and acceptance. That they are offended by what the Torah says about them. They want to correct the hatred and divisiveness that they feel has resulted from the traditional Jewish views - views which have spread to Christianity and Islam. They want to uproot what they claim is the false belief of the Jews and other religions that G-d does not approve of their behavior and in fact views it as an abomination. They have portrayed it as a simple campaign against primitive beliefs which must give way to the superior ideas of the secular Western world. They sincerely want to educate religious Jews in what they view as advanced morality and ethics. They want to show us that peace will result from discarding outdated religious ideas and that if we accept their views -- peace is just around the corner. They sincerely believe that if Jews were just more tolerate and could accept that the Bible mistakenly proscribed their behaviors as deviate - then there would be genuine peace - not only in Israel but in the whole world. They think it is that simple.

Thus the confrontation revolves around a single question. which side is right and which is wrong. There is nothing in the middle. Either the Torah was given by G-d and we must keep it because G-d demands it of us - under threat of severe punishment - or it is an ancient superstition which is an impediment to the happiness of Mankind. Either the Torah is G-d given or it is an outdated superstition. Which is it?

It is important to understand that this is not a simple debate of philosophy, an argument between intellectuals in some ivory tower. We are located in the center of the Middle East. A powder keg that can explode at any second. Beside the traditional Arab enemies with the huge armies - we also face the nuclear threat of Iran. Iran has threatened to annihilate us if we try to defend ourselves. Even without the Bomb - we face daily bombardments from Hamas as well as threats from the Hezbollah and Syria. Please read this assessment in the New York Times. Israel in the Season of Dread. There is no need to be melodramatic and exaggerate. Reality is frightening as it is.

The Torah is very clear that if we don't live lives of purity and holiness - we will be punished and expelled from Israel. As Rav Moshe Sternbuch, shlita mentiioned to me last Shabbos - Israel has a paradoxical nature - it either encourages the ultimate holiness or the greatest perversion.. The organizers of the offensive parade - think that the idea of G-d telling us what is holy is a joke. Make love not war. Engage in every type of perversion and encourage others - not only to tolerate it - but also to join them.

We are literally clinging by our fingernails to the edge of a cliff. We are this moment literally in a life and death situation. The Torah is called the Tree of Life to those who cling to it. To those who are too weak to hold it tightly - they fall to their deaths. The gemora in Shabbos (55a) relates how the great saints of the Jewish people were condemned to death - not because they sinned. But because they didn't protest the sins of the people. Even though if they had protested it would not have helped. The Torah requires us to protest against every affront to G-d and the holy Torah - or suffer the consequences.

This Thursday there will be a choice for all of us - either to pretend that nothing is happening when the parade marchers openly challenge G-d and His Torah - or to protest in a dignified manner against this spiriutal poison. It is an opportunity for sanctification of holiness in sincere yet urgent protest - or the opposite. The consequences are literally those of life and death.