Berachos (28b) The Sages taught: Shimon HaPakuli arranged the eighteen blessings, already extant during the period of the Great Assembly, before Rabban Gamliel, the Nasi of the Sanhedrin, in order in Yavne. Due to prevailing circumstances, there was a need to institute a new blessing directed against the heretics. Rabban Gamliel said to the Sages: Is there any person who knows to institute the blessing of the heretics, a blessing directed against the Sadducees? Shmuel HaKatan, who was one of the most pious men of that generation, stood and instituted it.
The next year, when Shmuel HaKatan served as the prayer leader, he forgot that blessing,
and scrutinized it, in an attempt to remember the blessing for two or three hours, and they did not remove him from serving as prayer leader.
Berachos (29aWhy did they not remove him? Didn’t Rav Yehuda say that Rav said: One who was serving as the prayer leader before the congregation and erred in reciting any of the blessings, they do not remove him from serving as the prayer leader. However, one who erred while reciting the blessing of the heretics they remove him, as we suspect that perhaps he is a heretic and intentionally omitted the blessing to avoid cursing himself. Why, then, did they not remove Shmuel HaKatan?
Shmuel HaKatan is different because he instituted this blessing and there is no suspicion of him.
Let us suspect that perhaps he reconsidered and, although he had been righteous, he had a change of heart? Abaye said: We learned through tradition that a good person does not become wicked.
And does he not become wicked? Isn’t it explicitly written: “And when the righteous one returns from his righteousness and does wicked like all of the abominations that the wicked one has done, will he live? All of the righteous deeds that he has done will not be remembered given the treachery that he has carried out, and in his sin that he has transgressed, for these he shall die” (Ezekiel 18:24)? Abaye responds: That verse refers to a righteous individual who was initially wicked and repented, but ultimately returned to his evil ways. However, one who is initially righteous does not become wicked.
And does he not become wicked? Didn’t we learn in a mishna: Do not be sure of yourself until the day you die, as Yoḥanan the High Priest served in the High Priesthood for eighty years and ultimately became a Sadducee. Even one who is outstanding in his righteousness can become a heretic.
Abaye responded: He is Yannai he is Yoḥanan. In other words, from its inception, the entire Hasmonean dynasty had the same positive attitude toward the Sadducees, and there was no distinction between Yoḥanan Hyrcanus and Alexander Yannai. Yoḥanan the High Priest had Sadducee leanings from the outset. Rava said: Yannai is distinct and Yoḥanan is distinct. They did not share the same position in this regard. Yannai was wicked from the outset and Yoḥanan was righteous from the outset. If so, it works out well according to Abaye’s opinion; however, according to Rava’s opinion, it is difficult. How could Yoḥanan, a righteous individual, have changed and turned wicked?
Rava could have said to you: There is also room for concern that one who is righteous from the outset will perhaps reconsider and turn wicked, as was the case with Yoḥanan the High Priest. If so, the original question is difficult: Why did they not remove Shmuel HaKatan from serving as the prayer leader?
A) itt says Abbaye works out well, but Rava not so well. So pls enlighten me with the proof that the gemara rules like Rava?
ReplyDeleteB) Abbaye ' view is quite rational. People tend to have a nature, vto which they succumb . The menuval will be a menuval. The modernist will be modern. The rationalist will think rationally - hence the criticism of the Gra against rambam. The mystic will turn to sabbateanism.
C) greenblatt may have lost his cognitive abilities and had early stages of dementia. Someone in their 90s already has a 50% chance of having dementia. So he thought he was doing right but lost his ability to act 100% correctly.
And why is NG of utmost importance, but other serious aveiros are no longer so important?
ReplyDeletestraw man
ReplyDeleteTry Shulchan Aruch and the Mishna as well as the flow of this gemora
ReplyDeleteAbaye defends himself by claiming there were two people with similar names
regarding your last point - nobody is saying he had dementia he clearly thought by obeying Daas Torah he was doing the right thing even against logic halacha and reality
The real question is why didn't he retract his psak when Rav Dovid rejected it as well as Rav Shmuel and all the major rabbinic figures - he apparently had a problem of ever admitting he had erred
If you watch a few of his most recent videos, he is acting very weird. I don't know if he was always weird, but seems like behavioural changes due to senility.
ReplyDeleteNo, cherry picking.
ReplyDeleteAccording to your dementia claim - can he be relied upon for psak?
ReplyDeleteWhy should he retract? He didn't sit with rav Dovid ztl, so under no obligation to accept another psak.
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah is problematic logically. Perhaps he didn't wish to undermine his own daas of Torah.
What aveiros are you claiming are not being taken seriously because of my concern with a phony heter
ReplyDeleteO(r are you claiming every post needs to protest against the top 10 sins?!
Absolutely not.
ReplyDeleteI'm claiming the latter, to not lose sight of sex abuse problems.
ReplyDeleteAre you claiming, by bringing this gemara, that he essentially became Elisha b. Abuya?
Wow so you are claiming eveyt post must be about sexual abuse?!
ReplyDeletewhy are you making the world revolve around NG?
ReplyDeleteNeed a more balanced "diet".
Wow!
ReplyDeleteI was accused of too much political material and not enough Jewish - now you are saying the maj9or distortion in Jewish divorce is less important than sexual abuse!
Am I saying that?
ReplyDeleteHow long do you plan to continue writing about NG? he is dead and buried,. Or do you plan to attack the couple he married, and their mamzer offspring ad infinitum?
Wow!
ReplyDeleteDid the problem he created go away or is it still a present concern?
ReplyDeleteThere may be hundreds or thousands of such remarriages without a get.
ReplyDeleteBTW, a few months ago the statement from the gemara was publicised _ an adulterer still gets olam haba. But he who speaks l'h /embarrasses his fellow man does not. What makes it appropriate now but not then?
You display amazing lack of understanding about this issue
ReplyDeleteIf i had the requisite level of understanding, i wouldn't ask the question. Is that how you answer questions in general?
ReplyDeleteFirst you need to be aware of what the audience has trouble understanding
ReplyDeleteHaving posted many items related to this topic I am simply amazed you have difficulty understanding whyi t is important
I'm not disputing its importance. Just that it's become like a new "modeh ani "
ReplyDeleteI understand part of the campaign is to deter future IBD or rogue poskim.
I didn't realize the issue had been resolved and the damage done br R Nota and Rav Shmuel had been corrected and they had apologized for the harm they caused
ReplyDeleteNo this is not just about the future but also the past and present
The RSK s will not tell Tamar to leave her new partner. The first husband isn't giving a get.
ReplyDeleteWhat about rav Moshe's teshuva to be innovative and not be modest, in finding solutions? He didn't say it needs approval of gedolim, the opposite, he said don't be modest.
relevance?!
ReplyDeletethat teshuva encourages people like IBD, Rackman, Greenblatt etc
ReplyDeleteNonsense!
ReplyDeleteThere is zero evidence Rav Moshe approved of your innovative approach or that he was encouraging the approaches proposed by your heroes
ReplyDeleteR Greenblatt himself opposed the IBD yet he viewed himself a talmid of Rav Moshe. Did Rav Dovid support them?
This is all speculation. "I" have no approach. Rav Moshe does not specify what the new approaches would be.
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, Rav Simcha Kraus opposed the Rackman BD.
Rav Dovid was not Rav Moshe.
I should add, "if they were aware of the teshuva!"
ReplyDeleteNope!
ReplyDeleteyou are the only person who views this as an invitation for justifying all leniencies and innovations
"justifying all leniencies and innovations"
ReplyDeleteit is an invitation for some innovations...
what was his exact loshon?