https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/theodor-herzl-vs-rabbi-kook-610614
The notion that there is an intrinsic contradiction between Theodor Herzl’s
Zionism and that of Rabbi Avraham Yitzhak Hacohen Kook, first chief
rabbi of Israel, is prevalent in many national-religious circles.
Indeed, Rabbi Benny Lau asserts in “Statehood and spirit” (Magazine, August 30):
There are similarities but ultimately there is a huge contradiction
ReplyDeleteHerzl gave up on Europe accepting Jews, even secular ones, as equal citizens so he decided to create a European state for them somewhere else. Israel? Sure, why not.
Rav Kook, ztk"l, saw God moving history forward and bringing His children home. It wasn't about getting away from the nasssty gentiles but about fulfilling the long-awaited prophecies.
If a secular Dr finds a cure for terrible diseases, hareidim will be lining up around the block to get the new treatment.
ReplyDeleteThey might even go back a few generations when his ancestors were rabbis. In either case, they will not be badmouthing the doctor.
But when it comes to the sickness of Europe, of blood libels, inquisition, pogroms and holocaust, suddenly hareidim want to badmouth the Dr. For loony hateidim, the camps, the gas chambers, and firing squads were preferable to actually having a State in eretz Israel.
Obviously, Herzl had good foresight.
ReplyDeleteUltimately he had the right idea but for the wrong reasons. His dream was walking into a room full of European presidents and monarchs and saying "Hello, I'm the president of the Jewish state of Israel which is a secular semi-socialist state just like yours. You see? We're just like you so you should be friend with us."
ReplyDeleteSo you prefer the rabbis who welcomed Hitler, yemach shmo, because he opposed liberalism, gays etc, even though ultimately they were wrong....
ReplyDeleteexcellent summary!
ReplyDeletewhere did you get the notion that Herzl was a socialist?
ReplyDeleteHe said he preferred a democratic Monarchy, but that a Monarchy would be difficult since we have no yichus from the ancient Monarchy of Israel.
nope, a very poor summary.
ReplyDeleteAn anti-halachic summary, and a false one.
Garnel alleges that the reasons for a Herzl's idea were all wrong, and that it was part of his ego to hobnob with Europeans Counts and Kings. That is nonsense.
Hillel said: "In a place where there are no men, endeavor to be a man.”
Nobody was dealing with anti-semitism , the rabbis did not know how or what to do, or how to action it even if they did know. The situation in Europe was not good, despite Artscroll telling you otherwise.
Herzl was being the man, where there were no other men.
The characteristic of Hareidim is to be mevazeh everything outside their own little circles. It is also to attack the success of anyone who acts without or against thier guidance. Kastner saved 1000 lives, including the Satmer rebbe, so the entire bookshelf of secular works in Satmar homes consists of "Perfidy".
The IDF carried out a miraculous rescue at Entebbe - so the Hareidim are outraged at this illegal action.
The story goes on and on. It is sour grapes, on steroids.
Here is a better take on the man
ReplyDeletehttps://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/988977/rabbi-steven-pruzansky/history-of-zionism-part-5-theodor-herzl/
So you claim you know his true motivation?!
ReplyDeleteHis motivation was a paradigm shift away from the old antisemitism model. This is explicit, and hardly controversial.
ReplyDeleteVikto Frankl, for example, was a secular and intermarried Jew, but he contributed to the field of pscyhology. In fact, many frum Jews have used his methodology, including Rav Bulka ztl.
ReplyDeleteSo must he be totally denigrated because he intermarried, and his books considered assur?
The same answer would apply to Herzl, but even more so.
No, Herzl's motivation was based on two assumptions
ReplyDelete1) Jews could, given the chance, contribute fully to a European social democratic country.
2) The Europeans were too invested in their anti-Semitism to let that happen
3) Therefore the Jews had to create their own European social democratic country, but not in Europe because it was already full.
His dream was to create a country that would fit right into European society just like the Germans, Spanish, French, etc. but it would be Jewish.
Where did you pick that up from?
ReplyDeletehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Judenstaat
Perhaps It's what you once heard a cynic say, and have taken it to be truth.
Why do your heroes either violate halacha or set up their own standards. But as a minimum have to be persona non grata in chareidi society
ReplyDeleteAre you asking why i allege they are persona non grata, or why i select those who generally are not acceptable in hareidi society?
ReplyDeleteThe problem is one we share. If you learnt and practiced psychology all your adult life, your influences will exclusively be non halachic academics.
Prof aviezer, a frum physicist, has made his parnassah based largely on research of secular jews and non jews.
Did chazal ever praise secular or goyim? They praised Herod's temple and Roman city engineering.
In frum psychology, there is yourself, rav twersky, rabbi Roll, and a few others. But is there revolutionary psychological theory? Nothing i have seen.
ReplyDeleteMy rebbe's son, dr Avidan milevsky is a very good psychologist , and works largely on sibling conflict. He is also a rabbi.
I suppose to question could also be asked about the Yerushalmi - on many issues it differs with the bavli.
ReplyDeleteIs RYG Bechhofer also unwelcome? He is a gaon, who gives daf yomi in both Bavli and Yerushalmi.
as an example, Rav Kook appreciated the artist Rembrandt.
ReplyDeleteFor me it is Monty Python and Steely Dan.
Especially if he donates some of his profits to the yeshivas
ReplyDeleteLet's make a deal. I'm going to read a few of Herzl's books on the subject, (well, ok, I'll start with one of them) and if your comment rings true with its contents I will come here and congratulate you. But if your comment is inaccurate (which something tells me it will be), I will have to correct the record and dispute your claims. Bli neder, I should read this book within the next couple months.
ReplyDeleteHere's a scary thought - let's say Hitler hadn't been anti-Semitic. Anti-communist, anti-gay, anti-Gypsy but as far as the Jews, while he wasn't found of them he recognized their importance to the Germany economy and encouraged their participation. But otherwise he was the same, concentration camps and everything. Tell me, do you think the rabbis of 1930's Berlin would've protested against him?
ReplyDeleteIt's not scary. Who would be in the camps if he wasn't anti X,y,z?
ReplyDeleteIt is a standard European dictator in this case.
No, it's scary to think that while we demand the world pay attention to the Holocaust, we'd have stood by and looked away when it was someone else.
ReplyDeleteLook at muslim silence over Chinese genocide of Uighur muslims.
ReplyDeleteYou are dreaming up an imaginary scenario. The fact is, jews were vocal in civil rights movement in America and South Africa.
ReplyDeleteChief Rabbi Yosef: Science, math are nonsense, study in yeshiva instead
ReplyDeletehttps://www.jpost.com/israel-news/chief-rabbi-yosef-science-math-are-nonsense-study-in-yeshiva-instead-672378
DT asked a very pertinent question a few days ago : "
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah Mod Kalonymus HaQatan • 2 days ago
"Why do your heroes either violate halacha or set up their own standards.
But as a minimum have to be persona non grata in chareidi society"
I wish to tell a true story - at some time in the mid-late 90s, i was attending Rav Kimche's weekly shiur in London, and I asked him the following question - "has anyone suggested saying Al HaNissim for Yom Haatzmaut or Yom Yerushalaim?"
He was quite taken aback, and said i should suggest it to the poskim.
It should come as no surprise that about 10-15 years later, an interesting Rav , named David bar Hayyim (without any input from me) made the very same same suggestion.
People tend to be drawn to like minded thinkers or Rebbes. The flip side of that is
that some people are simply accepting and mimicking what their rebbe say, without giving it any consideration.