https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/305680
However, evasion of rabbinic verbiage gets rather sticky under examination. For example, the RCA bans the “ordain(ing of) women into the Orthodox rabbinate, regardless of the title used”; the OU ruling prohibits “the appointment of women to perform clergy functions on a regular ongoing basis – even when not accompanied by a rabbinic-type title.” A handful of American congregations at the edge of the Orthodox orbit have attempted to circumvent the prohibition on female clergy by hiring graduates of Yeshivat Maharat and assigning them rabbinic functions while bestowing up them novel titles such as “Director of Spiritual Engagement”, and it appears that OTS has embarked upon a similar path, as it provides women with rabbinic training and helps procure rabbinic-type positions for them, but makes sure to leave out the “rabbinic” wording.
Modern Orthodoxy puts, as its name is, the modern before the orthodox. Even when the two conflict.
ReplyDelete"reflective of the unequivocal halakhic position of the RCA, Agudah, OU, Igud, TORA, and various individual top-tier halakhic authorities"
ReplyDeleteDo these orthodox organisations deny the Neviim, especially Devorah who was shofetet and hence poseket hador?
Rav Aharon Kotler ZTV’L, in Mishnas Rabi Aharon (Vol. 3, Hesped on the Brisker Rav) states that the essence of Modern Orthodoxy is the same as the Reform and Conservative. That is, change Judaism into something that more people will be willing to accept.
ReplyDeleteHere is an example of a plea to Modern Orthodoxy from Rav Shimon Schwab ZT”L, Rav of the Torah Im Derech Eretz Congregation Adas Jeshurun in Washington Heights:
ReplyDelete“And now we address ourselves to our chaveirim bedeah, our achim bemitzvos of the Orthodox Rabbinate of America. Ad masai? How long do you want to remain a branch, without becoming part of the tree? . . . We say to our achim b’mitzvos, “have Rachmonus with yourselves, and lemaan Hashem, part company with those who have given obscene semichah to to’evah clergymen” . . . Have rachmonus with yourselves, and break off your professional relationship with those who, for instance, consider Yishu HaNotzri merely a failed moshiach . . .We implore you . . . to part company with those gravediggers of Torah. I know it is a painful subject but it is unavoidable . . . We call on you to join us, the true Modern Orthodoxy [Rav Schwab is referring to previous statements of his that MO is today outdated and “anything but modern”], which is a generation of sincere mevakshei Hashem”.
(Selected Essays, pp. 90-91)
This does not sound like rejection, but a plea for MO to join us, hand in hand. The mistakes of MO are not the issue. That is for Hashem to judge and deal with, however He sees fit. Punishment for misdeeds is not our business. Unity is. And MO has been – and still is! – implored, “lmaan hashem” to join us in the traditional Orthodoxy ways. The issue is not the past. It is the present and the future.
Wow we are blessed with a world class expert in his own eyes!
ReplyDeleteYou should study the subject before attempting to act as if you had something to say. For example Rav Moshe discusses the issue in the Igros Moshe.
Hint he doesn't agree with your evaluation
Why not write a guest post instead of appearing in the comments which many do not read?
ReplyDeleteThat is a criticism of mo.
ReplyDeleteIs it true?
Is hateidism the same principle? Make up new chumras
because that's how to create a strong following of fundamentalists?
Why are you on the internet? Apikores!
ReplyDeleteCan you provide a summary of our sainted posek's position on Deborah?
ReplyDeleteAt that time it was in decline - orthodoxy was collapsing. Modern orthodoxy started the kiruv and renewal.
ReplyDeletecondones the aberrations which Hirsch condemned, such as religious nationalism, Orthodox-Reform collaboration and neutral Judaism"
ReplyDeleteWas rav Hirsch a wise investor in eretz Germamia? Obviously not.
how about a real rebuttal instead of ad hominem attack? Or perhaps it is because you agree with what he wrote but you don't like it?
ReplyDeleteWalter Wurzburger ztl died 20 years ago, yet the post refers to him as living in the now. so iti s obviously a copy of a previous article or a collation of several pieces.
ReplyDeletethe fallacy is that there were never Modern orthodox previously or in any other land. No orthodox jews in europe studied secular subjects?
what about the Rishonim? Sephardim?
Heard of Saadai Gaon, or rambam, or Meiri, or Ralbag?
There isa difference between being engaged in science and being a consumer of it. But the problem with the Hareidi position is that they are consumers of it, but they at the same time reject it as being reform. that is hypocrisy. If you avoid all vaccines and medicins, like your Amish / J- Witnesses cousins, then that is at least being honest. When Rav Kamenestsky made his embarrassing claim that vaccines are a "hoax" is that what the culmination of all this "learning" society is? Or is it the culmination of mass idiocy?
And this ties in to the tragic events on Mt meron - which is a result of mass idiocy on the part of the purely hareidi organisers, who flout laws, secular and Torah alike - gravity , momentum, are forces in physics, but were already implicit in the Torah injunction of maakeh - which was ignored. And the Torah matter of sakkanat nefesh - which was ignored, also in covid, also in Rav Kotler's early days in Europe.
So yes, you can produce mass numbers, herd mentality, but without herd immunity. But this is , if you ignore the Torah which you claim to exclusively follow, just another version of Reform, albeit with Glatt Kosher food.
Lubavitch started kiruv.
ReplyDelete"Although Rav Aharon Kotler ZT’L compared them to Reform, he did not
ReplyDeletemean that they are considered Mechalelei Shabbos or eaters of Nevelah.
He meant only that the justification for the modernizations that MO
instituted and those that Reform instituted were based on the same
mistaken pretense — that Judaism needs the changes. He did not say that
the level of changes are anything comparable."
Need to know when he said this and about what in particular.
he also blasted rav Hutner's proposal for a Yeshiva-college programme.
The problem with this type of statement is its logical implications -
before Chazal - that is the Rabbis who lived after the Hashmonaim, there was very little in terms of rabbinic halacha - d'rabbanan. There are claims, that Shlomo Hamlech insituted eruv, and a handful of others, but essentially the body of rabbinic laws was created by Chazal.
So this type of statement about the perfection of the Torah - is essentially a "Karaite" view, and indeed, that is one of their arguments about Chazal altogether. So using the argument sounds good, but it is also attacking rabbis throughout the ages.
Chatam Sofer refuted the Talmud, based on science of his day.
Rambam refuted astrology , and relegated it to a minority view of the talmud. Whenever I mention Rambam, we hear all kinds of defence mechanisms and denials "oh, he was great" or "oh he was not great", he was not accepted, etc etc.
There was 500 years of rishonim who were rationalists and modern, even the Rema was more rationalist inclined.
So the mythology is simply wrong that MO is an American invention.
No, Rav Kook did.
ReplyDelete"Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZT’L also, when he came to America in the ’30s,
ReplyDeletewas invited to speak in YU, and he refused to even walk in to the place."
Obviously, the story about his calculations proves his worldview to be entirely false, and neged Torah.
Yeshivas are not businesses? Of course they are. Look at Lakewood, or any other big yeshiva. How much money they make, for the owners.
ReplyDelete"The problem is that they consider themselves not a b’dieved, but a l’chatchilah – a full fledged legitimate lifestyle. They often even make claims of being superior to Torah Judaism"
ReplyDeleteThe Sanhedrin had to be masters of 100 languages, and have knowledge of avodah Zara.
Rambam said he read all the scientific /philosophers that were written in Arabic. At the time, Arab philosophers were world leaders.
So careful, you are attacking Rambam and chazal with your allegations.
Many yeshivas - especially YU - are corrupt, and conceal sex and gay abuse.
ReplyDeleteWhen Chicago bd was threatening financial welfare of yeshivas, because of abuse, the Israeli bd had to take over, to silence the scandal. Norman lamm did the same. All bribed and corrupt.
"consider Yishu HaNotzri merely a failed moshiach"
ReplyDeleteYitz Greenberg?
A) rabbi sacks said he is not orthodox.
B) yashka was failed - by every criteria in halacha. He did not fulfil any of the requirements for moshiach. He failed each one.
C) Rambam adds that for reasons unknown to us, yashka and Muhammad were both instruments in bringing monotheism, and notion of moshiach to the nations.
I don't know if Greenberg had this in mind when he wrote that, or he was being nice to xtians.
Christianity and Islam broke the Roman Empire , and led to the eventual liberation of Israel to its rightful owners.
"MO (and YU) consider secular studies in and unto themselves, intrinsically valuable, not merely as a utilitarian tool for Parnasa or Kiruv etc. But the fact that all knowledge “comes from G-d” gives all knowledge “value” that demands we spend time pursuing it, instead of spending that time on Torah and Mitzvos."
ReplyDeleteNope, hareidi leaders , eg rab e. E.dessler oppose secular studies even for a profession
The talmud teachers someone doesn't teach his son a profession, teaches him to steal.
So not only are haredim violating Torah on theft, they also denying the talmud = reform hareidi.
Joke article. MD doctor, where did he learn his trade?
ReplyDeleteOU kashrut is led by Rav Hershel shachter, and rav Belsky sat with him, so this article seems to be outdated or just hateful.
Various quotes of rav soloveitchik, please provide evidence.
ReplyDeleteRe. Zionism - the majority of anti zionists perished in Europe.
The number of deaths in Israel's wars is small in comparison to those in Europe.
Ohr sameach rejoiced at the Balfour declaration, said the 3 oaths are no longer valid.
Its a mitzvah to acquire Eretz yisrael - only reform deny this. Are you reform?
Women rabbis as standard is different from the fact we had a judge who was a woman. A Naviah named Hulda who was consulted by the king, as opposed to the Sanhedrin.
ReplyDeleteRav Aharon was an interesting Gadol, and his views are not so black and white.
ReplyDeletehe wanted to be maspid Rav Herzog , who was Zionist chief rabbi, and also had an academic doctorate. He wanted to go to the heichal Shlomo, but a lot of extremists tried to rpessure him not to, because of the Brisker Rav's ban on the Heichal Shlomo. He was Rav Isser Zalman meltzer's son in law, and Rav Isser Zalman was close to Rav Kook, and Rav Goren and even Rav Rackman (or at least his father). Now Rav Ahraon had wanted Rav Goren to be his son-in-law, because he as such a great lamdan! Eventually, though, he married the daughter of the famous Nazir in Jerusalem, Rav David Kohen.
It is difficult to know exactly what was said and with what intent, and how accurate these statements are. there photographs of Rav Kotler and Rav Soloveitchik sitting next to each other -
In any case, Rav Moshe would give a regular shiur in YU, as did other gedolim.
Also, your attacks on MO are dangerous, because you are pointing to the outsiders to define the mainstream.
Perhaps you belong to those Hareidim in Meah Sheraim, manchester and vienna, who were lieutenants for Yasser Arafat yemach shmo? Those who attended the Holocaust denial conference in Iran, and who publicly denied that 6 million were killed, saying this was a Zionist number, and actually it was around 1 million.
Perhaps you are of the type in Ponovezh who get into fights , and beat up their opposite rosh yeshivas, or attack Rav shteinman?
Of course, let's look at the "genius" Rav Wasserman - who claimed it is better to die than to accept a visa from YU , or Zionist organisations in Israel?
Do you realsie this is reform, and not halacha? The Rambam says clearly that in a place of shmad or persecution, one must leave the coutnry if at all possible. The Talmud, rambam, and shulchan aruch state that it is better to live in EY even if surrounded by idolaters, than to live in chu'l, even with talmidei chachamim.
so this lion of extreme ultra-orthodoxy, who you claim to be the True Torah - is actually saying the oppsoite of the Rambam, the SA, Talmud.
There is no question that one is allowed to break shabas and kashrus in order to save life - yet you admit that the food at YU is not treif, and they are not mechalel shabbes.
If you're not Chareidi and you're not right wing Conservative, you're Modern Orthodox.
ReplyDeleteThe biggest problem with Modern Orthodoxy is the name. What is modern changes from moment to moment. Once upon a time, the Model T Ford was modern. Once upon a time, certain values were modern. Now both are antiques.
ReplyDeleteThus the name combats any real attempt to define the movement. And further, as Moe Ginsburg pointed out, is it Orthodoxy with a touch of Modernity or Modernity with a sprinkling of Orthodoxy? As my rebbe once pointed out, while there are many Religious Zionists, there are more Zionists who happen to be religious. What comes first, your Orthodoxy or Modernity?
Recent splits in the movement reveal this problem. The Open Orthodox are clear - Modernity comes first and anything Orthodox that doesn't violate secular liberal values will be observed but that's the limit. So you have women rabbis because secular liberalism says men and women are the same. However, these same "rabbits" go to the mikveh and keep Shabbos and kashrut appropriately because those behaviours don't violate secular values. You can't daven with them but you can eat in their homes. A curious situation.
Additionally you are forced to answer this question: if a woman studies the material for semicha, writes the exam and demonstrates proficiency in the materal, a proficiency that would grant a man the title of "rav" then what do you do with her?
There was an article about rav shachs doctor in one of the frum papers _ either yated or some other such brainwashing magazine run by hareidim. Rav shach spent his life attacking secular education, yu, all universities, and having a profession.
ReplyDeleteNow one such person becomes rav shachs personal doctor _and he is transformed into a tzaddik despite his spitting in the face of all of rav shach"s teachings, and those of r dessler.
This is typical of haredi hypocrisy and dishonesty.
And also geneiva - depriving people of a parnassa. So I see these hatedi voices really as ugly, lying, thieving deceivers. A bit like yashka.
https://agimil.tk
ReplyDeleteDo all mo Shuls have female rabbis?
ReplyDeleteNo.
It is a handful.
In UK, no such thing exists.
"The Netziv of Volozhen closed his entire Yehsiva rather than institute secular studies," - the reason is omitted - it was a a government forced change, by the Russian government. It was not about free choice.
ReplyDeleteNorman lamm referred to the "cave" as isolation, it is not derogatory. Where did Rashbi hide for so many years? in a cave. You are committing a fallacy. Or a deliberate misrepresentation.
The information in here very sloppy, and unreliable.
Rav Moshe Soloveitchik was R'Y, and the successor was Rav J. D Soloveitchik, his son. One other Gadol, Rav Chaim Zimmerman claimed that Rav Moshe S. had promised to make him his successor. In any case, this is all irrelevant - there have been many disputes about who succeeds a R'Y. In Yu, there was no record of violencem, unlike in some Hareidi institutions!
there is another problem in the alleged "logic" of the allegations.
The author seems to accept, at least in principle, the need for learning a trade to acquire a parnassah. But like an illiterate fool who has little or no experience of proper secular education, he does not understand that different individuals have different interests and abilities. He sees it as sacrilege that anyone should have any interest or affinity toward what they study and do in life as a career. This, of course, was the view of Rabbi Dessler, so the writer of this piece is only robotically repeating the words of a greater rabbi than he. But the concept is in any case mistaken.
And here is the thing - employers do not employ people who are bad at what they do. They will not give chances to those with the wrong qualifications, or who are not bright and interesting.
And this is the fallacy, where Rabbis want it all for themselves, the parnassah, the funds to marry off their large families, and buy houses for each of them - yet they at the same time want to destroy the wealth of Israel.
a lot of loose comments aimed at Rav Soloveitchik
ReplyDeletehere is a more reliable essay by someone who served him
https://traditiononline.org/rav-joseph-b-soloveitchik-as-posek-of-post-modern-orthodoxy/
"TIDE does not espouse sending Jewish children to outside Universities.
ReplyDeleteRav Hirsh made his own schools – he did not send his students outside of
the community."
What complete nonsense! Many of the students went to german universities. even teh Lubavitcher Rebbe and Rav Hutner went to those universities.
And what about Ner Yisroel - in its heyday - where the talmidim would go to secular universities.
And in Telshe in Ohio, many go to the local university.
So this is all fake news
https://wersrompdiscplorer.tk
ReplyDeletenonsense! try harder
ReplyDeletetry again total distortion!
ReplyDeletewhat is distortion?
ReplyDeleteeither the leaders oppose secular edu or they back it.
The Talmud - either it says teach your son a trade or it doesn't.
It doesn't say to go to YU or any other college
ReplyDeleteWhere does it state these were desirable or even praiseworthy?
ReplyDeleteDid the article state what you claim or do you simply remember what you would like it to say? Source?
ReplyDeletenot everyone goes to University, even amongst the general population.
ReplyDeleteDo you think the Hareidi population in Israel would be better off if there were no Jewish doctors, scientists, researchers, opticians etc?
the trades in Talmudic times were different than they are today . The discussion, for example of becoming a perfumer vs a leather tanner. Today that is the chemical industry. Or pharmaceuticals.
Again - the outcome is geneiva. If you prevent people from learning a trade, whatever is most suitable for them, it is gneiva.
If a goy passed the exam you would say he is a rabbi.?!
ReplyDeleteMaybe Right wing reform?
ReplyDeletewhich aspects are you disputing?
ReplyDelete1) Did Rav Shach oppose university studies, and YU, or did he back it with the same zeal as Rav Soloveitchik?
2) Does the article below praise the doctor(s) who served Rav Shach (and other Gedolim) or does it mock them like R' E.E. Dessler (Ponovezh/ gateshead) suggests we should?
If you dispute either of the above, provide evidence
If they are factual, then it means that according to you and your group, only a few Rabbis are allwoed to have good healthcare, but not millions of other Jews.
That is a violation of what the Rambam says, when he says it is required to live in a town with a doctor (obviously today a doctor who can see you).
https://mishpacha.com/tending-greatness/
a goy did pass the exam, and we all thought he was a rabbi!
ReplyDeletewhere does who state that "these were desirable or even praiseworthy?"
ReplyDeletein Ner, Rav Ruderman sent many of his talmidim to university. If it was not desirable, why did he do it?
In any case, Rav Azriel Hildesheimer and Rav David Zvi Hoffman were the real Gedolim of German Modern orthodoxy, no Schwab.
btw, where does the heter come from, allowing to earn money for teaching Torah? Many great tzaddikim refused to do this.
ReplyDeleteridiculous fallacy - are you calling Rav Bleich and Rav Shachter reform?
ReplyDeleteOkay, so this is the point: a non-Jew would not be allowed to write the exam in the first place. The Rabbanut does not allow women to write the exam but somehow there are exams out there as good as the Rabbanut's and they write them. A Gentile, l'hatchilah, couldn't write the exam because of the prohibition on learning Torah. A woman doesn't have that same rule.
ReplyDeleteNo, rightwing reform is to the left of left wing Conservative.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, there's a movement that broke off from the Conservatives called Union for Traditional Judaism. That are essentially OO-lite without mechitzos.
how do you know he sent them or was it that he didn't stop them?
ReplyDeleteYou have an interesting concept of gedolim.
Straw man argument. It is not the question of whether there should be doctors but whether medicine is a desirable goal for a yeshiva bachur. It is also not a question of no job or being a doctor - there are other ways of earning a living!
ReplyDeleteThere are many trades, . But a significant section of the community have, and always have had professions.
ReplyDeleteThere may be a few billionaires who started with...rich fathers. And perhaps that is a source of Chalukah. This inability to lead the entire Jewish people is part of the problem. Having a hand in its destruction is the other.
In Joshua, the Israelites see that the Philistines have iron chariots,.
Today, Israeli technology is keeping it at advantage to its adversaries - on the rational level. We must thank G-d for his help, but can't rely on miracles.
Thought experiment:
ReplyDeleteNo opticians in Israel -
All lamdanim wear glasses, as do a large number of general population.
There must be thousands of people earning a Parnassah from their secular profession, who'd be jobless.
Teva pharmaceuticals - employs thousands of people, produces medicines for the world. Without the scientists the economy would tank.
Intel chip manufacturing in Israel - the same as above.
So yes, a few carpenters, plumbers etc, can eke out a living, but what you are suggesting will essentially destroy Israel's ability to survive.
there are many Arabs and Palestinians available!
ReplyDeleteBut you don't need Jewish scientists or male scientists!
ReplyDeleteYep, beating up your brethren every night.
ReplyDeleteAnd no male soldiers either!
ReplyDeleteThey can't even treat their own.
ReplyDeleteThey come to get Israeli healthcare.
Did rav shach have Arab docs?
I gather you never were in an Israeli hospital or clinic
ReplyDeleteYou gather incorrectly
ReplyDeleteYou are spinning out a recipe for destruction.
ReplyDeletePerhaps 10,000 nk can live like that.
It goes to show your mentors have not got credentials to lead a nation.
Israel’s public health system is a model for Jewish/Arab coworking
ReplyDeleteand collaboration. As of May 2017, 42% of all nursing students in Israel
were Arabs, 38% of pharmacists in Israel were Arab, and 38% of medical
students at the Technion in Haifa were Arab as well. Roughly one-fifth
of Israel’s doctors, one-fourth of the nurses and almost half of the
pharmacists are Arabs. Israeli Arabs look to jobs in the healthcare
industry because it allows them to find work outside of the normal
confines of Arab society in Israel.
I spent some time in the technion,
ReplyDeleteHaifa is Arab Israeli mixed.
Why do the Palestinian leaders seek Jewish doctors ?
Your thinking is like the organisers of the meron disaster. If it works for 10,000 - it can work for 10 million.
Rav wasserman thought ww2 was identical to ww1. Not even the weaponry was the same. Not the purpose, ideology or the danger to Jews.
That is why when hareidim try to think they are kings Solomon and try to be actors in history _ they lead to disaster.
I had Arab nurse, and 20 Israeli/Jewish doctors.
There's all the issue of "s'rarah" which potentially means that even if a woman takes the hardest smicha exam and gets the best mark in the class, she still can't be in a position of religious authority. So much for the title.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, in most MO shuls the Rav isn't in charge. He answers to the fickly rich members of the shul board so his authority is mostly fictitious. Perhaps that's the excuse they're using.
the whole thing is a straw man issue.
ReplyDeleteIn YU, they do not have women rabbis, or women rosh yeshivas.
When they do, then write these articles.
meanwhile, in the Edah, they colalborate with Hamas, Khamenei, PLO - yemach shamam
Not all doctors are good - as we learn from the Talmud.
ReplyDeleteIn Israel, today there is longevity because of the great healthcare system.
This is perhaps the reason we need the King's law as espused by the RaN - and also that is what Rav Chaim Ozer advised Rav Herzog. So we have internal resources - inthe Rishonim, Gemara, and Tenakh - The TNK was from a time when we had nationhood, politics, kings, armies , wars, love, song, wine, and Temple.
Another issue is the role of conformity. While UO considers the individual secondary to the community, MO considers the community secondary to the individual. That's why you can have uniforms in Chasidic clans and the Yeshivish systems but there is none in MO. A UO asks "What can I do for the Torah?" and a MO asks "What can the Torah do for me"
ReplyDeleteNow, properly observed, MO is not a deviant or anti-Torah movement. Properly observed, MO grants some value to secular knowledge because such knowledge enhances Torah observance. This is an area of hypocrisy in UO. If they were to be true to their founding principle "Anything new is forbidden by the Torah!" then they would live like Mennonites. Any time a UO turns on a light, gets in a car or on a train or even uses toilet paper, it's hypocrisy. They want the benefits of modernity but don't want to acknowledge its value or show any gratitude for it.
MO, on the other hand, is more honest in this regard. Lights, cars, train and toilet paper have value because they allow us to lead more convenient lives giving us more opportunities for Torah observe. Since they are valuable, the knowledge that produced them is valuable and therefore should be learned as well. A proper MO lives an observant life but without the disparagement of the positive products of modern secular society.
Now, lots of UO's will be upset with my description of their community and I understand why. Most of them are honest and sincere, we all know that and to judge a community by its limitations or bad members. UO as a concept is a beautiful thing. And so is MO, despite the fact that most of its members, especially outside the confines of YU, don't live up to its standards.
"Ask not what Hashem can do for you – ask what you can do for Hashem."
ReplyDeleteYona F. Kenndelman
(Couldn't resist.)
UO is what used to be simply called Orthodox. Orthodox is what used to simply be called Jewish.
ReplyDeleteIt was founded at Har Sinai.
Nope,
ReplyDeleteOrthodox was a label used by reform to describe frum.
Rabbis Hirsch, hildesheimer, malbim, chatam sofer, Yaakov emden, noda beyehuda, etc
Were all leaders gedolim with different outlooks.
Rambam, Ramban, rasag etc were gedolim who were also doctors, astronomers, philosophers etc.
There are no UO who agree with these rishonim. Hence, uo is an innovation.
Yaakov Avinu had a slightly different take on that
ReplyDeleteperhaps you can organise a palestinian army to protect the Jewish Israelis from the Palestinians, and Hezbollah, as well as Iran! This is your left = right, and right=left perspective.
ReplyDeleteAviezer Ravitsky on Halachic State
ReplyDeletehttps://www.academia.edu/36939049/Aviezer_Ravitzky_Is_a_Halakhic_State_Possible_The_Paradox_of_Jewish_Theocracy_in_Raphael_Cohen_Almagor_ed_Israeli_Democracy_at_the_Crossroads_London_Routledge_2005_137_164?email_work_card=reading-history
Most interestingly he cites the Netziv's Emek Davar on Devarim 13:14,
who says something similar to the RaN!
Just like Orthodox was a term invented by the Reform to describe those Jews who contributed to practice the default Judaism of pre-Reform, UO was a term invented by outsiders to describe those Jews who continued to practice the default Orthodox Judaism of pre-MO.
ReplyDeleteTake the joke up with Yona F. Kenndelman.
ReplyDeletePre-Rambam?
ReplyDeleteRambam was Torah + science/philosophy . He earned a living as a doctor.
ReplyDeleteSo he was already a yeshiva+ university orthodox.
Rav shach was not the only power in ponovezh. He was held under suspicion by rav povarsky and his followers. Reb Ephraim shach, the son, had gone off the hareidi derech - so rav shach was on the defensive.
ReplyDeleteThis explains his over compensation attacks on MO , to prove to his critics that he was 100% authentic.
Wow! An explanation for everything
ReplyDeleteProblem is that maybe his criticism was justified
it was justified - primarily for internal political struggles
ReplyDeleteIn other you are claiming he should have kept his true beliefs private?!
ReplyDeleteam I claiming that? And Am i claiming these were his true beliefs? No way for me, or anyone else to access those true beliefs of his.
ReplyDeleteSince he was already being attacked for having the wrong approach to chinuch, then his reaction to was to lash out at the entire MO /DL world. It was part of his own power struggle. The same war , diluted 1,000,000 times, is being fought out now with eggs and tear gas.
Rav Hutner followed the same exact path - a) he wanted to set up a Y-U arrangement with Rav Mendelowitz, b) was atatcked by rav Kotler, c0 in turn he atatcked MO even more viciously - it is to prove one's own bona fides and avoid being marginalized in the Hareidi world.
Wow! What a powerful proof supporting your :claims"!
ReplyDeleteIt is self evident
ReplyDelete