R Shmuel Herzfeld |
1) Tamar claims she doesn't need a Get because she says she was never married to Aharon. None the less the "wise" rabbis and their "wiser" congregants will not let him attend shul until he gives her a get! 2) The Baltimore Beis din has long stated that Aharon Friedman is not obligated to give his wife a Get - and they are the only beis din authorized to deal with the case because of a signed agreement from Aharon and Tamar. 3) While the Washington Beis Din originally demanded that Aharon give a Get - they rescinded that demand 6 years ago with the acknowledgement that they had no jurisdiction in the case which was already being dealt with by the Baltimore Beis Din.
An example of a rabbi incorrectly claiming that halacha requires banning Aharon - despite the clear ruling of both the Washington and the Baltimore Beis Din - is found in this post from 3 years ago of the view of Rabbi Shmuel Herzfeld. He and Rav Schacter clearly hold that a man can be pressured to give a Get - on the demand of the wife - even without going to beis din - and even if the beis din says otherwise!
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2013/02/r-herzfelds-heter-to-publicly-embarrass.html
[...]
So from the perspective of Jewish law the matter is clear: If a person is not giving his wife a Get and is using it as leverage, one can (and depending on the circumstances, should) embarrass him publicly even to the point of threatening his livelihood.While this is never a pleasant thing to do; it is also not pleasant to live with the pain of not being able to remarry or go out on a date by virtue of the fact that you are being chained to a recalcitrant spouse.Although, the halacha is clear I still felt trepidation in this area. Perhaps I was misreading the sources or perhaps there were other factors that I did not consider. So I personally discussed this case with Rav Hershel Schachter, a leading authority at Yeshiva University, who is directly involved in this exact case. He encouraged me to continue on this path. I specifically asked Rav Schachter if I should let all of Aharon’s colleagues on the Hill know about his behavior and he said, “yes.”Subsequent to our conversation, Rav Schachter wrote a psak on this matter where he wrote: “Limnoa mei-habaal she-lo ye-agen et ishto—inyan zeh eino tzarikh pesak beit din, upeshita desaggi behoraat chacham, to work to prevent the husband from chaining his wife—this matter does not require a ruling from a Beit Din, and it is obvious that all that is required is a ruling from a single Torah scholar.” He further noted that the great Rabbi Akiva Eiger also ruled that if we know a man is planning on making his wife an Agunah we can even throw him into jail on the Shabbat itself. So in this case specifically it is appropriate to convince Aharon to give a Get.
[...]The Halakhah on this matter is clear: Aharon should give the Get immediately and not hold it as leverage. Until he does that it is permissible to embarrass him into doing so.Of course, at the end of the day it is not just Aharon who is embarrassed publicly. The New York Times article did not just embarrass Aharon, it also embarrassed the Torah; it is a Chilul Hashem to see such behavior being conducted under the auspices of the Torah.But that is not the fault of the New York Times. That is the fault of our own community for not being strong enough in this area.Aharon still has many supporters who are encouraging him in his recalcitrance either explicitly or implicitly through smoke screens and redirected, irrelevant complaints about his ex-wife. And so Tamar Epstein’s status as an Agunah continues, and for that we should all be embarrassed.
I believe it may be time for a minyan of courageous men in the SS community to form a minyan on behalf of AF. Much like many of the other Jewish issues of our day had to be addressed by bloggers like RDE, effective justice here may have to come from the כלל and not its leadership.
ReplyDeleteOf course, a minyan needs a Sefer Torah. For that effort, I suggest they go to the BBD to procure one. IMO, their recent apology bespeaks their awareness of the enormous guilt they bore for years, in violation of לא תגורו מפני איש. AF's shunning is on their חשבון too; let them work to expiate their sins of omission in this case.
How funny that Mr. Herzfeld quotes Rav Schachter on this yet on other matters like Women's Prayer Groups he scorns what Rav Schachter has to say.
ReplyDeleteIt is crystal clear from the second letter that Rabbi Klavan and Rabbi Winter (zt"l) realized they made a mistake. They were not arrogant like Mr. Shmuel Herzfeld and Jeremy Stern who will not let go when they proven wrong. They were not like Pesach Lerner who kept Jonathan Pollard in prison by urging him NOT to apply for parole when wiser heads realized it was necessary. They weren't worried about saving face, they were interested in doing what was right.
ReplyDeleteThe treatment of Aharon Friedman by the Silver Spring / Washington communities is nothing less than brazen feminist persecution (hiding under a facade of falsified halacha) of a decent man.
ReplyDeleteIt is time that the "rabbis" responsible for this travesty of justice (and many other travesties against decent men) be banned and ostracized themselves for their actions in violation of halacha.
The Bais Din of Shar Hamishpot has pronounced a nidui on R Herschel Schachter and several other rabbis for their activities in violation of halacha. To receive a copy of the nidui, please send an email to PDF@sendfast.org with the number 1072 in the subject line. A PDF file (with the nidui against RHS on the second page) will be returned to you.
Mr. Herzfeld isn't Orthodox. He is openly a member of Mr. Avi Weiss' Open "Orthodox" denomination. Even a cursory glance through Mr. Herzfeld's frequent Facebook postings will easily reveal a disdain of Orthodoxy and a commitment to heresy.
ReplyDeleteHe is more than a member of Avi Weiss's denomination. Shmuel Herzfeld is his protege'.
ReplyDeleteWhile you are on the subject, we need to raise awareness of this henious crime that is being committed to other men as well. Meir Kin was ejected from all shuls in Las Vegas despite his Bais Din ruling that Lonna Kin does not deserve a GET. We need to start organizing a revolution against the phony rabbis of this generation that for FEMINISM's sake they have trwisted all types of Halocho to "fit" the feminist agenda. Lonna went to civil courts against halocho, she gagged him by court order so that no Bais Din should know what she and her daughter were doing "behind close doors" etc.. It turns out that Rabbi Shusterman from Beverly Hills is a chabad rabbi whose wife is friendly to Lonna, as they grew up together in beverly hills, then convinced rabbi shea harlig from las vegas to issue a "FATWA" against meir kin and to eject him. Meir is now remarried for 2 years with a HETER MEA RABBONIM and no one wants to resolve the matter. These women Lonna and Tamar dig such a DEEP HOLE for themselves and then dont know how to extricate themselves. Had they both have agreed to normal visitation arrangements from the getgo, they would by now have received their GET. BUT THE EVIL ORA ENTICES THESE WOMEN NOT TO NEGOTIATE AND THEREFORE THEY HAVE ASSURED FOR THEMSELVES "POSTER AGUNA" GIRLS for their cause. I applaud both Meir and Aharon for standing steadfast in the eyes of rabbinic corruption!
ReplyDeleteI think you should stop putting down our wonderful community. If our Chashuve Rabbonim have decided that Aharon Friedman needs to be in cherem, then who are you to disagree?
ReplyDeleteAnd just by the way, Reb Shmuel Kaminetzky is the greatest Gadol in America since Harav Anemer zatzal
Actually, I'd add that Rav Shmuel Fuerst shlita is right up there with him.
ReplyDeleteIf you understand Yiddish you can listen to about this subject on 951-262-3634, then press #355
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't say he is not orthodox. I disagree very strongly with his views but, unlike some of his fellow OO adherents, he is careful in his writings (at least the ones I've seen) not to cross any red lines.
ReplyDeleteI did find the dvar torah he posted on his website on February 7 very interesting and wonder if he reads his own posts. The following is an excerpt from his post (which can be found on http://www.rabbishmuel.com) - bracketed wording are my annotations:
"Thus, we see that not only must a person be sensitive about what they say but they must also be sensitive about what they don’t say. By not saying something we can also oppress someone with words and violate the prohibition of ona’at devarim. [like oppressing a husband who God forbid has actually followed halacha and presented all his disputes to a bet din]
How beautiful are the ways of the Torah! The Twitter culture rewards the one line insult while our Torah commands us to be careful even about what we don’t say!
It is noteworthy that the Torah elsewhere seemingly repeats this prohibition when it says, “lo tonu ish et amito ve-yaretah mei-elokekhah ani Hashem, one should not oppress his friend and you shall fear God, I am Hashem” (Vayikra 25:17).
The Shulkhan Arukh explains that the Torah repeats the commandment multiple times in order to teach us to be exceedingly careful about the prohibition of ona’at devarim (Choshen Mishpat 228:2).
Ona’at devarim does not only apply on an individual level. It of course applies on a communal level as well. Our communities and our leaders must be exceedingly careful with the words we use and make sure that we do not oppress and hurt those who are the most vulnerable—the geirim in our midst. [like a victim who has been oppressed by ORA?]
We are living with this distasteful and unpleasant Twitter culture, but the greatest danger of the Twitter culture is where might it eventually lead us.
Words are words and deeds are deeds, but words lead to deeds. [deeds such as prohibiting a frum jew who has followed halacha from attending a shul, trying to harm his livelihood, etc.?]
In its most perverse outcome, when society embraces a culture that rewards words of pain and hurt it allows for the acceptance of the ideas behind the words. This type of language can allow wicked demagogues to elevate themselves by targeting their words and using the vulnerable as fodder for their attacks. [I couldn't have said it any better]
We know these dangers all too well because in our history the straw man used by wicked politicians has been our grandparents and great grandparents. That’s how the medieval kings of England, France, and Spain did it to our ancestors. That’s how Torquemeda did it. And that’s how Chmielnitzky and so many others did it as well. [and how a certain rabbi in washington did it?]
This is why we must speak out against those who use their words in a bullying and irresponsible manner, especially and most dangerously when they combine their message with that of their own personal charisma. [hear hear]
Such behavior represents an existential threat to our society, which we have a duty and responsibility to speak out against. When we hear such words being spoken we have a religious duty to say: this is not our path. Our path teaches us that words are important and hurtful language is deeply problematic. [One wonders whether he is pays any attention to what he posts. Sounds almost like he is preaching to himself.]
At the end of our portion Moshe goes up the mountain to get the Torah (24:13). As he ascends he tells the elders these words—these are the final words he says before he goes up to get the Torah on Sinai, “Behold Aaron and Chur are with you. Whoever is a ba’al devarim can come near to them.”
Ba’al devarim literally means a master of words.
Only one who is careful with their words is worthy of coming near to the Torah."
All I can add to that is Amen and ask Shmuel, are you worthy of coming near the Torah?
Come on, dont ye know the current guidelines, "Lo soguru mipnei ish - avul mipnei isha soguru ". ..capiche?
ReplyDelete“An example of a rabbi incorrectly claiming that halacha requires banning Aharon - despite the clear ruling of both the Washington and the Baltimore Beis Din - is found in this post from 3 years ago of the view of Rabbi Shmuel Herzfeld. He and Rav Schacter clearly hold that a man can be pressured to give a Get - on the demand of the wife - even without going to beis din - and even if the beis din says otherwise!”
ReplyDeleteI notice on Pacer
Court of Appeals Docket #: 15-4095 Docketed: 12/31/2015
USA v. Mendel Epstein
2/22/2016 : ECF FILER: TRANSCRIPT PURCHASE ORDER (Part III) filed by Mr. Vincent E. Russoniello for the date(s) of January 28, 2015 February 17, 2015. Transcripts were filed in the District Court on 02/22/2016. (VER).
Do we know the testimony Rabbi Schacter gave in the USA versus Mendel Epstein case? I’d like to see it.
Zevy,
ReplyDeleteYou are free to hold to this supposed 'cherem', but the only beis din with jurisdiction (as per the letter in this post) didn't issue it. So what's your leadership's basis for this cherem?
Moreover, given that the בעלת דבר has remarried, what exactly is the community protesting now? Is a cherem meant to last forever?
Judaism does not convey infallibility on anyone. When enough people see that an עיוות הדין and a massive עוולה has occurred, they need act accordingly, and not wait like sheep for someone else to do what's right.
Courage is needed here. I imagine the first ten men will face some pushback, but it's time for this injustice to be stopped in its tracks, and that seems to need to occur at the grassroots level.
I was told by Reb Moshe Peltz in Las Vegas that Lonna Kin finally went to the Bais Din and she was told that as soon the slander against Meir Kin was removed from the Internet they would proceed to deliver her the get. However, ORA refuses to remove it. So who is chaining Lonna Kin?
ReplyDeleteJeremy Stern and his gang, that's who.
If you hold so highly of Rav Anemer, then you are obligated to obey the decision issued by his colleagues and successors on the Washington Vaad as noted on the second letter shown above.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know what Rabbi Hershel Schachter's current views on the situation are? Rav Schachter says the heter is not valid ( http://www.torahweb.org/audio/rsch_011016_video.html starting about the 33 minute mark) so does that mean he still feels the way about Aharon Friedman as before or has he come to understand there have been lies and deceit by ORA and others?
ReplyDeleteAhhhh. There you go Zevy Katz.
ReplyDeleteFinally someone has said it- Shmuel kaminetsky and Shmuel Fuerst are equally chashuv...
I have to agree.
I'm not sure you meant it the way I'm taking, but delicious nonetheless.
Which Bais Din said they would deliver the Get?
ReplyDeleteIt is called "toleh killeloso be... ahh... *Cherem* ", tartei mashma. The depth of this *ivus vekilkul hadin* is so vast, that even R' Dovid has a hard time solving it. What the people still cannot understand, why for the mean time we don't hear that the couple should depart, and why not to stop rodef achar Aharon. Posters need to be put up about the status of ORA and all those behind their heinous crimes in all the Shuls until they go completely out of business, bekorov mamesh.
ReplyDeleteRabbonim who don't follow Halacha. They've lost their status of Rabbonim and some have slid into the slime of being Reshaim. For the record there is one Rav standing up for Aharon, but I'm not going to to say more here because word may get out and we may end up with crazed people at our doors. But if you can keep a secret then call me at 301-812-4050.
ReplyDeleteHe considers lies and deceit permissible, but won't come out and say so. He also takes money from 'clients'.
ReplyDeleteReb Moshe Peltz told me Lonna Kin called Rav Gestetner that she is ready to accept the get. I am assuming it is the Bais Din he is associated with. I suggest calling Reb Peltz for details.
ReplyDeleteDon't make statements like that unless you can back them up. I viewed the video so I know he does not accept the Greenblatt heter. What is his stance on Aharon Friedman at this time?
ReplyDeleteHerzfield is behind the drive in Washington to force all husbands to give a GET on demand by the civil courts. This would create a GET that is invalid, and the children born from such a GET are mamzerim. We must keep in mind that the Washington rabbis and Rabbi Herschel Shachter invent Halacha and the rest of us better not marry those who are born from their inventions.
ReplyDeleteI just want to say that the problem of marrying mamzerim is not limited to Washington, DC. Moshe Heinemann in Baltimore is an enthusiastic backer of ORA. The RCA and especially its head G Schwartz don't have the same Torah that I have. There are others, but the main rule is, that the people who invent Halacha make mamzerim.
ReplyDeleteA bombshell of a shiur! Maybe someone wants to write up the highlights. Among the details which emerge:
ReplyDelete1) ויהי כמשלש חדשים
2) Aharon Friedman was called and invited to come down to meet the panel. Rabbi Gestetner's beis din advised him that there is no need for him to attend. The R.G.'s beis din was called, trying to explain to them why it Aharon should agree to come down, and the beis din's response.
Though he may or may not accept the 'hetter', he considers lies and deceits to get a (forced / beaten) get to be permissible.
ReplyDeleteAre you refering to Rav Schachter or to Jeremy Stern? I thought you were talking about Rav Schachter as accepting lies and deceit. Unfortunately I see he does accept them in the case of the bogus seruv on Aharon Friedman.
ReplyDeleteThat does bring up another question, what did Rav Schachter say (or not say) when ORA declared "Tamar is free" ?
Maybe someone wants to write up the highlights.
ReplyDelete1) It's difficult to find someone who is not termed a rosha.
2) Even after a person has passed on, he should be wished punishment for his sins.
3) In between the hysterics, he does make some very valid points.
Disclaimer: This is not a proper summery.
Note how he makes a point that "WE" were the first to expose the hetter - everyone else woke up only later. And "they" - meaning almost the entire rabbinic establishment besides Rav Gestetner - only opposed it to show how machmir they are in order to justify their terrible actions in gittin.
ReplyDeleteThis man has serious issues. He has made kefiyah bget his reason d'etre, and sees the world in terms of those who agree to his agenda and those that don't.
He criticizes Rav Shloime Miller, who is one of the greatest talmidei chachamim and poskim in North America, and one of the most vocal opponents of the hetter, of doing everything to make a name for himself.
The tactical maneuvers he reads into Rav Miller's letters are so far removed from Rav Miller's demeanor. Rav Miller is someone who has very little understanding of political maneuvers.
But Rav Gestetner has a problem. He can't bear that people who he has criticized in the past for not seeing eye to eye with his agenda have "hijacked" a campaign that should have been his. This is a repeated theme in his drashos.
Sorry, Rav Gestetner, you need to understand one basic concept: Calling great rabbanim names and denigrating people of stature will not make you any more chashuv. Just sit and learn, master 4 chelkei Shulchan Aruch, and act with middos of a talmid chacham, and you will earn the respect of the tzibbur. You won't have to speak against "Miller" and "Belsky", etc. to make yourself great.
And one more point: What in the world were you thinking when you advised AF not to go? You assumed that RDF is most certainly going to pasken mutar, that you don't want AF to have any part in the proceedings? Or because you were afraid that they might persuade him (not force him which he can simply avoid by not signing shtar berurin) to give a get?
I disagree with you.
ReplyDelete1) Indeed, he was the first to come out with a public proclamation against the horrible adultery that was "kashered" by certain people.
2) He ... sees the world in terms of those who agree to his agenda and those that don't.
You are wrong. It would do you well to understand the differences between Jews who have unfortunately had to resided in different exiles.
3) Rav Elyashiv was strongly opposed to the gitten thuggery. (Please note that RCYB and ME did not get involved in these matters while Rav Moshe was still alive.)
Please see this letter. http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2012/04/rav-eliashiv-denounces-rabbis-who-force.html
There were those who were critical of the way Rav Miller handled it. Others felt that it would have been much more powerful if there would have been a single letter that Rav Elyashiv signed onto. Indeed, how in the world did RSK come about to support attempting to beat up AF for a "get"?
4) Do you have any sort of defense for his critique of RCYB? His manner of speech is certainly is not for my stomach, but does he have a point?
5) And one more point: What in the world were you thinking when you advised AF not to go?
Is there anything in the world that AF has to gain by showing up to this BD? Let's not forget that to this date, the matirim have not yet cooperated with this BD! What in the world does AF have to gain? He can only lose.
Additionally, RDF made it very clear that he is against publicly shaming RSK and RNG. If RDF wants to allow RSK and RNG to save face, fine. But why should AF get involved as long as RSK is still being rodef him??? Why has RSK not made a real effort to ensure that the good people of Silver Spring stop with their vigilantism that he encouraged. Vigilantism that would not have happened without RSK's support.
If RSK would show the slightest mentchlichkeit towards AF, then it may be a different story. At this point, AF has no reason to be compassionate towards those who are treating him cruelly.
Rav Gestetner is able to be specific and give sources for what he says. The main reason this mess exists is because of guys like Jeremy Stern who make declarations without specifics, without sources and without truth.
ReplyDeleteIs Herzfeld on the Vaad?
ReplyDeleteHow else do you expect this parsha to make headlines without hysteric...
ReplyDeleteJust comical...
Honesty, are you aware that RCYB did the same thing that RSK and RNG did years ago?
ReplyDeleteDid you see the Kuntres about it?
Greatest. ...., AF has absolutely NO chiyuv to show up to Rav Dovid Feinstein, while on the other hand, te has a chiyuv gomur to show up in BBD...
ReplyDeleteDear Mr. Abramsohn, please allow me to explain. The "greatest anav" dude insinuated that Rabbi Gestetner's issues with RCYB were illegitimate. I disagreed. I asked him for a defense. While RG's manner of speech towards a deceased person is not for my stomach, RCYB's actions are not easily explained as proper or right.
ReplyDeleteThere are people who speak about a cold cup of coffee in hysterics.
ReplyDelete1) He wrote a public teshuvah about it.
ReplyDelete2) He took responsibility for his actions.
3) He pulled back!
Big difference!
Honesty, I for long wanted to see his retraction letter. Can you please direct me to where I can see it? TY
ReplyDeleteWho is RCYB?
ReplyDeleteSorry but he never pulled back. I have the copy of the paper, you got your facts wrong obviously
ReplyDeleteWhat does TE and BBD have to do with this? And what does a chiyuv to show up to RDF have to do with advising someone not to go?
ReplyDeleteNo one forced AF to go. He wanted to go. He was advised by others to go. Until Rav Gestetner told him not to. Why?
BTW his birur holds no water, and is am haratzus IMHO
ReplyDeleteIndeed! my point was that unfortunately nowadays nothing makes headlines without hysterics.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate that. I am not too aware of RCYB's actions, I only heard from someone who knows of that similar parsha, and luckily the woman did not remarry as in the RSK-Epstein case. As for talking against a deceased person, I think RG defends himself in doing so in a prior shiur I think # 352.
ReplyDelete1) Rav Gestetner was not the first. BBD and Rav Nissim's BD already did that in the summer, but they could not be specific about the particulars of the hetter without knowing what it was based on.
ReplyDelete2) To make sense from what you are saying, I think you mean to say that his methods are Hungarian, particularly Satmar. Is that correct?
3) Rav Elyashiv was strongly opposed to the gitten thuggery.
So is Rav Shloime Miller. What does this have to do with this conversation?
BTW, How in the world do you know that RSK supported attempting to beat up AF for a "get"?
4) Do you have any sort of defense for his critique of RCYB?
No. But that's not the way to oppose someone many times greater in Torah than he, nor does it contribute towards convincing others of the faults of RCYB's position.
5) First of all, the question is not what AF has to gain. The question is, if there is a BD that is sitting to be mevarer a halacha, and they ask someone to come because he may shed light on the matter, and the individual is ready to go, which ehrliche yid advises him not to? There could be a number of areas where he can shed light on the halacha: on how unmaritable he is, on how much of a m'agen he was (not), on all the details of savra vekibla, etc. Is Rav Gestetner's advice to AFnot similar to those who advised TE to leave BBD?
Secondly, as far as AF"s best interest, I don't see how appearing in BD has to do with RSK being rodef AF. I'm all for clearing AF's name and it seems like a terrible injustice was done to him. At the same time, I believe that it probably is in his best interest to show up. RDF is not empowered to, nor interested in, forcing AF to give a get. The maximum he can do is cajole or convince. AF's best interest is to put this all behind him. Don't you think so? RDF might help to convince him that it is in his best interest to at least start some sort of negotiation towards a get.
You and Rav Gestetner have made this assertion that this BD is only here to save face for the Kams. I don't think RDF would go out of his way just for that. This BD is here to go through this issue patiently and objectively and do what's right. And when RDF convenes a BD for such a purpose, it's a chutzpa for anyone (including "the mattirim") not to comply in helping them reach a true conclusion.
How do you know Aharon wanted to go and was prepared to go until advised otherwise by Rabbi Gestetner?
ReplyDeleteRabbi Gestetner was not the decisive factor in not going
ReplyDeleteIt is not publicly available. I need to ask the person who gave it to me if I may release it. Maybe I will post the contents.
ReplyDeleteI don't know who made AF decide not to go, or what RG's role was, nor do I really care, but it baffles me that a person like AF would even care to go to a Bais Din who is even considering that there is even a remote chance for RSK's heter without a Kosher Get, and all the while RSK was not the Bais Din that AF chose willingly to abide by.
ReplyDeleteAnyone care to explain please?
Jeremy Stern can do nothing without Rabunim behind him. Do your homework please.
ReplyDeleteJeremy Stern is the tail wagging the dog.
ReplyDeleteMr. Stern's rabbis are the types that follow their crowd's demands in order to please them and their beliefs of divorce-on-demand is a right.
ReplyDeleteSimple, as I've explained elsewhere on this blog.
ReplyDelete1. Because that's the right thing to do, provided that his concerns about being coerced to give a get are allayed.
2. Because this will contribute towards the matirim's possible reconsideration, which in turn may force TE to separate.
I have my (first-hand) sources. He was willing to go because that was what he was advised to do by people who have his interest in mind.
ReplyDeleteRabbi G. was afraid they would convince him to give a get, which he claims is assur.
Does that mean that you are?
ReplyDeleteOkay, you can even tell me to make sure that I notice...
ReplyDeleteAnticipating
Appreciated
So then, pray tell what is going to be the document that you will attempt to make public?
ReplyDeleteSure, I read up documentation on the Shatner 2003 "heter". Just like here: 1) built on lies and 2) even if true, would not hold water. ..
ReplyDeleteCopied from what I told Honesty: sure, I read up documentation on the Shatner 2003 "heter". Just like here: 1) built on lies and 2) even if true, would not hold water. ..
ReplyDeleteRegarding point #5, Reb Dovid Feinstein 's group of individuals lack authority to revisit what the Baltimore Bais Din has or has not done. Tamar is obligatedto go to that Bais Din and Rav Dovid has no jurisdiction over that why should he go to people who he DOES NOT recognize, since HE signed the shtar birurin elsewhere. .?
ReplyDeleteContrary to you first hand sources - Rav Gestetner was not the decisive factor in deciding not to go
ReplyDeleteSilver Spring is a hotbad of Aishes Ish supporting Znus, just check up the Mund-Chin story living in Silver Spring
ReplyDelete"May and may"....
ReplyDeleteIt has never happened in the past that the Maskilim-Matirim reverted in the same way that RCYB never did, it only gets worse.
And not a single woman who remarried (if it can be called that) after a posole Get ever separated, you should know better!
Besides I think I heard you saying that AF may face at the BD being asked/told to give a Get (used as a negotiation tool to force a separation by TE), while this is absolutely not to his advantage, as TE must separate right away on no conditions, AF has a heter to remarry as per RG, and seemingly using the Get as a negotiation tool only helps the agenda of the Maskilim-Matirim to do it again, since they know they will always get their point.
I guess it goes back to what RG said this is to throw AF under the bus, and actually plays into the Maskilim's hand
Guess that the answer is with the question that
ReplyDelete1) who called together this Bais Din, better yet, in whose interests was it called? The ones who called it together, the ones who made the heter, right?
2) Is it in turn for them to call that shot, or for Baltimore Bais Din to call it? Does that move in itself on their part defy the BBD? IMHO, I think it does.
3) just thinking now that Nathan of Gaza mentioned that there was anyways a meeting with Reb Dovid and the younger RSK did not show up, although being invited. What would that tell you?
It seems that you agree to points 1-3.
ReplyDeleteRegarding 4, I was referring to RCYB's position regarding get me'usah, not regarding this hetter.
Regarding 5, FYI, This BD was in contact with the BBD. However, if the issue would be AF's litigating against his wife (custody, get, etc.), then this BD has no jurisdiction, especially considering that they signed onto the BBD, However, this BD is not convening about AF's litigation vis-a-vis his wife. This BD is convening for the sake of a pirtza that many claim has happened in Klal Yisrael. The mandate of this BD is to properly and objectively analyze all the facts surrounding this hetter by a standard that would be convincing to the mattirim and to determine if it is a valid hetter. AF should only be coming to help the BD clarify whether this hetter has any validity. I can't see why any ehrliche yid would convince AF not to go.
So can you possibly explain the rationale behind that advice?
ReplyDeleteGranted no woman who gets married based on a posole get will separate. But only as long as there is some rav hamatir that she feels she can rely on. And TE won't either separate as long as RSK and/or RNG will continue to support the heter.
ReplyDeleteSo the real question is whether the matirim will back down. In this case, there is hope. RSK has said to anyone who asked him that he wasn't matir, but that no one has the right to criticize the heter as long as they haven't seen all the evidence. RSK wrote specifically to the Eidah that he wants the case to be revisited by RDF. And RNG has already said (according to my souces) that he's willing to cooperate with the BD.
I don't understand why it is not to AF's advantage to enter negotiation over a get. You say that TE must separate right away. Fine. Efshar lekayem sneiyhem. If AF says to the BD that he doesn't want to consider a get before she separates, that is part of negotiation. But why shouldn't he come to the table? Why do you insist that TE - who you assert will never separate - should davka continue to live b'issur forever, if there is a way out?
This BD was not called by the Kamenetzkys, contrary to RAV G's bold assertions. The very fact that Rav Shalom did not show up shows that.
ReplyDeleteIt was called in the interest of people who care enough about this pirtza, yet want the issur to be clear enough that even the matirim will be forced to admit defeat. This can only be done by a BD that will review the facts objectively and thoroughly without accepting hearsay.
The BBD fully complied with this BD for this very reason. This is not about litigation between the parties, over which only BBD has jurisdiction.
you have got to be kidding - it is clearly not in Aharon Friedman's favor to go to this beis din.
ReplyDeleteWhat do they want from him - 1) to decide whether he is crazy? Will they tell him the burden of proof is on him to prove he is not? Even if a psychiatrist(s) say he is normal - Tamar can claim that it is simply a dispute between therapists and she prefers her own. But it would still raise the possiblity that he is crazy - score 1 for Tamar
2) To tell him they advise he give a get? But that is the role of the Baltimore Beis Din - though Rav Dovid may "suggest strongly" that he do it as a bargaining chip for the heter to be removed. Thus Aharon will end up with nothing more than he has now but Tamar will be granted legitimacy and will remain married to Adam (E.H. 17 :58). Score 2 for Tamar
In short there is absolutely no benefit for Aharon to go and it is only to provide a way to save Rav Greenblatt and the Kaminetskys
It wouldn't take more than 10 mintues for any normal bar mitzva boy to see objectively that the heter has no basis - why has it taken 3 weeks without any results - what are they discussing?
Question: Do you or anyone else in the Rabunim world sincerely believe there is still even a slight a chance that RSK and RNG will revert?
ReplyDeleteIf you do believe so I have news for you.
Harav Reb Chaim Kreiswirth Zt"l Rav Horoshy of Antwerp who was know as one of the biggest geonim of his time once told me in a similar parsha in my 60 years as a rav it has never occurred that a Rav would retract his position ever no matter what you showed him.
Now he was referring to pre-war mostly let alone today's corrupt era.
Also you mentioned elsewhere that ENG did a prior annulment with approval of Rav DF, if that is the case chances are he will get that again.
Moreover, the BD by attempting to put together evidence with the dim hope to convince the Matirim-Maskilim shows: one that there is still a possibility the Matirim were correct giving credence to them, and; two, that they still consider it a possibility depending on the evidence.
I do understand that Reb Moshe zt"l opened this possibility, as big a tzadik as Reb Moshe was his tehshuva cannot be relied upon because he was a yuchid in hundreds of years to do so, and no one after him should have the Chutzpah to copy him.
I've already stated my opinion elsewhere.
ReplyDelete1) Even if there is zero benefit - if RDF asks you to come, you come, period. I am not so arrogant to assume that I know with 100% certainty what he wants and therefore I don't have to go. Any one who advises him not to go is a chatzuf.
2) Even if the point is to get him to give a get - as long as no one is forcing him, he can say I will discuss it with others and I'll decide. And if AF will get convinced that he should give a get - tovoi olov beracha. If he decides not to - that's his right. RDF is not a threatening person. He will not force anyone to do anything. Why does going to him mean that AF will be coerced into something he doesn't want. He can have plenty of advisors who will tell him whether to give a get - but the decision wiil be his.
3) There is great benefit for the osrim in bringing AF. This BD is the only hope of convincing TE to separate. Until now, the matirim claimed that none of the osrim never properly reviewed all the evidence (which is true about many of them). Bringing all available evidence to the BD will leave no room for the matirim to claim that not all evidence was reviewed and they are therefore not bound to the BD's decision.
Not everyone is so cynical about RSK and RNG. There are many ehrliche yidden who are not convinced and who follow the line of reasoning that as long as there are matirim and osrim this is a machlokes haposkim, and that the matirim know more about the case than the osrim. This BD can help set the record straight by leaving no room for the matirim to invalidate this BD's conclusion.
4) The mere fact that there are osrim who are convincing AF not to go will be proof to the matirim that the osrim are afraid of the true facts.
I only heard from someone who knows of that similar parsha, and luckily the woman did not remarry as in the RSK-Epstein case
ReplyDeleteShe most certainly did. To a Chinn.
I was referring to the Shatner case (Hafkuas Kidushin), not Chin
ReplyDeleteNo your reasoning is not acceptable and it is clearly not the reasoning that the beis din is using and it is not the reasonling that Tamar is using.
ReplyDeleteIf they really wanted Aharon to come they can simple sign a declaration that they simply want information and that they have no jurisdiction over him and will not suggest or request that he give a get or take a psychiatric exam.
Not telling Tamar to separate from Adam simply means that their is a presumption that the heter is good but that they need to clarify some points. That starting point is simply unacceptable unless they view that the purpose of the beis din is to protect Rav Kaminetsky - and they are willing to sacrifice Aharon to to it.
The matirim are only two people in the world. The rest of the world views the heter as junk but they are not sure how to handle the situation. No one needs proof to change their position.
Isn't the Chinn case a different case than the case Moshe is referring to where there was a letter from Rav Aharon Schechter denouncing the heter RCYB gave?
ReplyDeleteCan you show the Shtar Berurin signed by RSK and RNG?
ReplyDeleteWhat about Shtar Berurin signed by TE and her Boel Fleisher?
After that we can discuss AF to go there.
ANd yes Rav G openly proclaimed that AF has an issur to give a Get while they live together, anyone cares to show why Rav G's sources to that position is incorrect? if shown I am sure AF would agree to come.
You state:
ReplyDeleteIf they really wanted Aharon to come they can simple sign a declaration that they simply want information and that they have no jurisdiction over him and will not suggest or request that he give a get or take a psychiatric exam.
Did AF offer them such an option? Or did he just refuse to come without explaining why? Perhaps had he made such a condition they would've agreed.
You state:
Not telling Tamar to separate from Adam simply means that their is a presumption that the heter is good but that they need to clarify some points.
I would modify that: Not telling Tamar to separate from Adam means that the BD does not see any toeles in telling her at this point because she will anyways not listen to them as long as RNG or RSK doesn't retract. They will only retract if they respect the BD's objectivity and if they are convinced that they respect the matirim as innocent until proven guilty. Only after doing a most thorough job in the matirim's eyes will the matirim be left with very little wiggle room. Basic stuff.
He offered and was turned down. No beis din is presuming that the heter is valid unless they find out otherwise
ReplyDeleteWhat conditions did Ahaon offer in order for him to come to Rav Dovid's beis din?
ReplyDeleteWithout responding to your other points, in response to your #4 please be advised that you are lacking a lot of information on this RCYB, I personally a story where a husband was arrested on the whimsical order of RCYB without any hazmanah, the wife was openly being mezane with a sephardic guy, while RCYB was informed and was fully aware of it, he cared less to cause a totally posole Get.
ReplyDeleteThis is in addition to all other stories circulating on him, not even talking about his kashrus trief issues on the meat.
The only way to stop such nonsense is to decry them, for otherwise there will never be a stop to such עקירת הדת. your using velvet gloves to handle the Maskilim-Matirim will take you nowhere except on a slippery and dangerous slope.
There is no explanation to the pain the man had on what he was doing, but we saw not a trace of melting away on RCYB's part like you say happened when he heard the woman cry.
ReplyDeleteHow come? any answer?
Man sitting in prison, being alienated from ther beloved ones who btw also cried they wanted to see their father (only at night on their pillow when no one saw), but all this didn't matter to him.
But as stated all this is no excuse for עקירת הדת.
BTW Rav G gives his sources why he is defaming a deceased person, listen to #352
I believe Rav G would gladly wish and await another Rav to do the dirty work, there is no one unfortunately.
ReplyDeletePlease show a single Rav who fights tooth and nail the Gitin Meusin Mafia like him.
What Kavod or money does he have of it?
One must be insane to think that he derives any benefit from it, either you are lacking info, or the denigration he does has caused you to side track the issue.
If you agree on everything he says but for the Denigration then we can deal with that separately right or wrong. But if you disagree on other areas let's have a debate please, because the denigration is a side show
It is Rav Abraham's a"h, Bais Din.
ReplyDeleteThat's the only outstanding issue in the Kin case - removing slander? I thought the holdup was a custody/visitation dispute? Also, if she has no control over removing third-party website information, how can that be used as a basis against her?
ReplyDeleteI cannot imagine the BD having meant to remove the slender, rather that those who are responsible, meaning the Rabunim who issued bogus siruvim should revert their position, and then they can discuss the Get
ReplyDeleteThey are presumably doing posting the slander on Yisrael Meir Kin for her benefit. If they refuse to to remove the information she needs to compel them to do so. How? I'm sure her lawyer can figure out a way.
ReplyDeleteThere may be other issues but according to Reb Peltz the Bais Din will not discuss anything until the slander is removed.
The bogus siruvim would have no effect if they weren't promulgated by the Jeremy Stern Gang.
ReplyDeleteHe offered and was turned down.
ReplyDeleteI'll have to take your word for that.
No, beis din is presuming that the heter is valid unless they find out otherwise.
You also believe so (until now RNG was considered a reliable mesader gittin), only you are convinced that you found out otherwise. If it's as you say, at what point will they "find out otherwise"?
I also would like an answer to your last point.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the first, I heard from Reb Moshe Abraham, the son of the late Rav Tzvi Dov, zt"l, that his father, a"h, wanted to give Mrs. Kin her get upon her request (despite her nastiness towards him for helping her husband!), but the issue was the outstanding fees she owed him...
Who in the world is Rav Anemer! ???
ReplyDeleteRabbi Anemer was the foremost rabbinical figure in Silver Spring for about 50 years, and was called "the cohen gadol of America" by Rav Gifter. BTW, "Zevy Katz" is a troll. The real R' Zev Katz is a mechanech in Silver Spring and Rabbi Anemer's nephew.
ReplyDeleteOutstanding fees she owes her husband?
ReplyDeleteUbeyoser. He was a talmid muvhak of R Elya Meir Bloch from Telshe. As well as a talmid of R Moshe Feinstein.
ReplyDeleteHe was for a short period of time the co Rosh yeshiva with R Leib Heiman of the Boston Rabbinical Seminary. Which was a joint effort of Lakewood and Telshe.
Pre-war? A lot of things happened pre-war that were not proper.
ReplyDeleteThere is a rav in Queens Valley whose testimony to Bais Din was deemed incorrect on a case and the Bais Din ruled accordingly. Instead of accepting the psak, this Rabbi P.S. who served as witness to this Bais Din declared that the Bais Din was wrong and their psak should be ignored.
What is the proper thing to do?
Yes, it's the denigration that I have an issue with. I believe that he is standing up for the right thing, but that has caused him to forget his place and his stature.
ReplyDeleteBesides, his methods of denigrating those that disagree with him hinder, rather than further, his cause
My brother is right. I know why he didn't go. One reason why somebody may refuse to go is that at this point, weeks after the start of the Beth Din, nobody hears anything. Some feel that the whole Beth Din will just disappear. If its purpose is to get the two Kaminetskies to retract, I doubt if that will ever happen. If they retract how can they tell Tamar that they were wrong and her children are mamzerim? How can they admit that they ruined her life and she must leave her new boyfriend she considers her husband? I am not waiting for that to happen. Therefore, the entire Beth Din if a miracle takes place will succeed in getting the inventors to admit it was a mistake. And maybe in the merit of Reb Dovid sticking his neck into a ridiculous situation he will achieve what he wants. Then, and only then, will Aharon maybe decide to go to the Beth Din.
ReplyDeleteAh, if this Rav Anemer is declared 'godol hador'...and who declared "Zevy Katz" to call the shots?
ReplyDeleteI have no idea what you are talking about. Please clarify.
ReplyDeleteThis Cheirem is the biggest joke of our times.
ReplyDeleteIf you fancy The Kamenetsky's being made fun of then go on
The Cheirem is required as glue to hold the bogus Heter in place for her bogus Gedolim
ReplyDeleteThis will never change.
ReplyDeleteThe feministic Ra-Bunim will always keep doing what they always did, and the man just needs to learn to live with it and continue in the face of the Eiruv-Rav now called "Gedolim"
I have no idea why anyone would call me a troll. This is Zevy Katz from Yeshiva.
ReplyDeleteI DO hold of Harav Fuerst olamos, and I DO hold of Rav Shmuel as Goadol Hador.
Rav Anemer was my uncle and was an Adam Gadol Ad Meod.
The only troll I know is Shrek, and while some have mistaken me for him ;), I assure you I am not actually him.