I am just curious which august organization has taken the initiative concerning this matter. Maybe I want to send them a check. Or perhaps there is no such organization.
Then and now, Rav Aron Schechter, the true leader of the American Moetzes, speaks openly, fearlessly, forthrightly and publicly about the Rabbi Natan Slifkin controversy case, with Rav Aron Feldman at his side (Parts I & II):
Hoy! Al me ovdo ho'orets? A l asher ozvu es Toirosi, veloi ovu loleches bidrochov. Kvod haTo'oiro haKdoisho munachas bekeren zoviyes, uke'even asher ein lo hofchin! "KOROSI VE'EIN OINEH", Oy gevald, meh hoyo lonu. Ve'im hachresh tachrishi loes kazois, meh yihye lonu? Veim lo achsov EIMOSAY???
I also would have liked to see a name. As to the letter - Imho he misses the point by comparing the heter to OO folks . We are taliking about corruption and dishonesty that would be totally unacceptable in any court of law or social setting
Rav Shmuel was always known as a flip flopper and this is just another example. Except that this time he not only is taking someone else down he seems to be doing it on himself too. As they say what goes around comes around. It's just fascinating that it came about through one stubborn guy refusing to give a get.
"How sad that censure and rebuke has to come from Gedolei poskim overseas, or American Chassidic leaders"
Actually the letter of protest from Rabbi Shlomo Miller and Rabbi Elya B. Vachtfogel were from the very first letters to be released on this matter. I do not believe either Rabbi Miller OR Rabbi Vachtfogel Are Chassidic.
I read closely the two pages of text. I very much agree with everything in it. My feeling is, alas, the radical feminists seem to be winning down in America. Israel, especially Bnei Brak, where I live is strong and getting stronger. Come all Jews to Israel, now!
Is this letter being distributed or printed anywhere else besides for this blog? It would be wonderful if it is was printed (or paid for advertising) in the HaModia, Yated, FJJ - although said publications would never take it even if paid to. Perhaps a page out of theunorthodoxjew's book. A mass mailing in Brooklyn and Lakewood?
This Rabbi is not in the public eye, has never demanded respect as a Godol BaTorah, and has not deem himself a leader of a Klal.. Attaching his name to this missive would not be courageous; it would be foolhardy. He would have nothing to gain and everything to lose by outing himself.
The members of the American Moetses,on the other hand, have accepted the mantle of Torah leadership. With such acceptance comes responsibility to take action as the need arises.
And never in the history of the Jewish people has such a great need arisen. Not even in pre-Talmudic times when the decree of תבעל להגמון תחילה was in force was the sanctity of the Torah so universally threatened. Anyone who does not do his utmost to abolish this most evil decree of our times does not deserve to be called a Godol BaTorah.
I myself still have to marry off children and therefore I similarly refuse to be unmasked lest I be labeled a maverick among my peers This is why I applaud the fortitude displayed by the Rabbis Eidensohn whose stance is evocative of the Mishnah, " במקום שאין איש השתדל להיות איש ". Thy are true heroes, while I timidly eschew the title Rabbi and instead cravenly cloak myself in the mantle of
This letter writer and his "organization" are not talking about the type of protest from Rabbis Miller and Vachtfogel. They want something along the lines of that Rabbi Roth from New York, who says that R' Nota and R' Shmuel should henceforth be treated as gentiles, or something like that.
The Torah haKdosha was given equally to all Yidden. Chassidim, misnagdim, bent downs, bentups, frocks, long jackets, and all of Klall Yisroel. Veato Sechze were those that are the true Elite to handle dvar H' without negius, Anshei EMES, Sonei Botsa, ... with a SPINE. Straight shooters, and LO SOGURU MIPNEI ISH! Having less than that, need not apply. True GEDOLIM that have voiced their PSAK are those that immerse themselves in YAM HATALMUD, TORAH LISHMA YOMAM VOLOYLO, veneemon LaH' Ultoroso. Not to mention but a few, The RA"AVAD of Yerushalayim R' MS would have been from the ones selected by Moshe Rabeinu beruach haKodesh and the likes of Rashkebeha'g R'C' Kanievsky, that they breath Torah, and their veins flow with Torah, their kol mehus in life is Torah. These GIANTS are walking Sefer Torah's of the kind's of "Tov li Toras picho mealfei zohov vokessef". They have spoken! Vehevei zohir begachloson shelo tikove. Need we say more.
The cowardice of the rabbis is emboldened because they know that the המון עם might just be more cowardly than they are. So they plod along.
But even that is besides the point. This letter writer (you deemed him a 'rabbi'...based on what?) is decrying a horrible rip in the fabric of יהדות, and he doesn't have the guts to stand up and put his name to that? No one does? It's not my job to protect Judaism...it's yenem's??
I think you have it terribly wrong. If you can't own your מחאה to what is clearly a horrible chillul Hashem, then you aren't really protecting a valuable commodity to pass on to the children you're trying to marry off.
The polls prove only that R' DE doesn't use touchups and being very honest. It is self explanatory that these ROFL trolls just pass by to cast their votes as coached by these letter writers, that keep on changing dynamically every other day. Denials, forgeries, confirmations, coverups, coverdowns and what not. How else would they know about the poll. Indeed, just the other day they were begging not to disseminate it on the Internet. There aren't even that amount of steady bloggers around here to add up to such numbers. All these rubo kekulo steady bloggers are in line and agreement with these posts as you can see by yourself. The Gedoilei Poskim even ask that these mechoes should be increased. So much for the BLUFFERS.
What a great letter. At this years convention Rabbi Zweibel and the novominskers speeches were against open orthodoxy. Sure very easy to bash something your not close to and something you will not get flak for but now with this heter that undermines the covenant between Hashem and Klal yisroel something that endanger the future yichus of Klal yisroel and they remain silent?? I for one will never again attend the convention not will I follow what they say. They Have proven themselves to be partial, not concerned with the very foundation of Klal yisroel but are only concerned with protecting one of their own even if it means endangering the future of Klal yisroel. Does anyone believe Reb Elya would have remained silent? Rav Moshe, Reb Yaakov , Rav Ruderman or Rav gifted ? They would have torn Kria and proclaimed public demonstrations.
No, not necessarily. It's just that these meaningless vaads l'maan this, that or the other are a dime a dozen, and we've all learned decades ago to ignore them. Fake organizations detract from the message. They do not bolster it.
I also wonder if the wording for option four would be "Refusal of people to admit mistakes." I would have voted for that, but did not vote since it uses the the word gedolim.
Not much if you need the author to stand behind his remarks , here are the remarks speak for themselves kabel es haemes mmi sheamro all of klal Israel, are thinking the same thing
With all respect to the Rav, I would like to suggest you are destroying your children's future. You are teaching them that the proper way of a Jew is to willingly make himself hostage to a Marriage System that in turn is in thrall to gangster-like leaders who Shmutz up the Torah. Avrohom, Moshe, Dovid, and many other Jewish leaders throughout history were mavericks, that is, outsiders that were chosen by Hashem to move the world from darkness to light. Your family, though, may end up indistinguishable from non-Jews who slavishly follow the fashions and fads of the day. Be a Hebrew. Cross over to the public side. Remember the heros who gave up their lives for Klal Yisrael. I wish you success with your inner struggle.
If the author is not standing behind his remarks, then the letter contains nothing that hasn't already been said. It would add something only if the name of the person were known, and if he turned out to be someone of stature or at least the head of a legitimate organization.
Actually, it is very relevant. Among those who decry the actual heter that was given, there have been two schools as to how to approach it. One expresses their firm disagreement with the heter, while refraining from criticizing the mattirim personally. The other criticizes the mattirim personally. To date, no mainstream figure from the Litvish world has been identified with the second approach. This letter is advocating that approach. So, it is important to know where this is coming from.
Is that all you mean? First of all, there is no reference to either of the Rabbis Kamenetzky. Second of all, there is no comparison at all between that and the type of personal attacks in the Edah/R'Roth letters, or in the open letter in this post.
It clearly was meant as an insult. There is no reference to the Kaminetskys since Rav Greenblatt gave the actual heter and was mesader kiddushin. The degree of criticism is not relevant to your original claim.
I disagree. The difference between air quotes around the honorific "Rav" vs. writing that R' Shumel "promotes and facitilates adultery" and "plays fast and loose with halacha" is readily apparent.
The macho'oh penned by Rav Knopfler clearly attacked the matirim personally. His macho'oh was underwritten by the gedolei Bnei Brak including Rav Kanievski. They obviously consented to attack the matirim personally. Rabbi Eidensohn though, has chosen to remove Rav Knopfler's polemics, probably due to pressure from his arch rival Rav Miller from Toronto. This in essence falsifies the message being relayed by the Gedolim and relegating it from an attack on the mattirim as well as the heter to one addressing just the hetter. Unless of course RK requested his name be removed, though reasoning for that is beyond me.
"Rabbi" Halmark, do you know the identity of the writer? if so, perhaps disclose to us readers if not his identity, maybe something about this courageous individual who seemingly identified himself in the lions den, to the חכמי חלם making up our venerated Moetzes.
Avigdor you either are naive or you are a troll. The issue of Rav Knopfler is a complex issue with both sides claiming that either the presence or absence of his letter is a falsification . Lakewood politics is not my concern at the present. Rabbi Knopfler definitely has made a major contribution and devoted much time and effort to this issue - and is largely unappreciated or acknowledged by the main stream rabbis.
I haven't removed anything - there are in fact two versions of the letter - one with and the other without his protest. What constitutes falsification regarding this letter is being used to distract attention from the issue of the heter.
I will not allow more comments on this issue through at the present
Once again, I disagree. The all-out attacks on the integrity of those involved found in the open letter of this "organization," in particular with regard to the Rabbis Kamenetzky, has not been exhibited by anyone in the mainstream Litvish olam HaTorah. That is the point I made earlier, and I stand by it. If you are claiming that one of the letters used a condescending tone in referring to R' Greenblatt, I will grant you that, but it is you who are being trivial, not me.
If you are claiming that one of the letters used a condescending tone in referring to R' Greenblatt, I will grant you that
It is much more than a condescending tone. It is an outright dismissisal of Rabbi Greenblatt being deserving of the position as a legitimate Rav.
The letter did not attack the Kaminetzkys, because they are not the "poskim." However, if they would publicly stand behind their psak, they would be criticized in exactly the same (or worse) fashion. These letter are saying that it is time to publically acknowledge the true roll the kaminetzkys had in the "heter."
Sh'mos: 5:1 and Rashi there. ואחר באו משה ואהרן וגומר. אבל הזקנים נשמטו אחד אחד מאחר משה ואהרן עד שנשמטו כלם קודם שהגיעו לפלטין, לפי שיראו ללכת. ובסיני נפרע להם, ”ונגש משה לבדו והם לא יגשו“ (לקמן כד:ב), החזירם לאחוריהם (ש"ד שם יד):
Two questions: What is the "Va'ad Lehatzolas Klal Yisrael"? Does it have any members other than its "spokesman"?
ReplyDeleteAn excellent letter!
ReplyDelete(I just wish that it would not include an organization's name. This should be coming in the name of Acheinu Bnei Yisroel and Bnei Torah all over...)
Two questions: Relevance? Why are you attempting to highlight the messenger and divert attention off of the important message?
ReplyDeleteLOL. Someone calling for strong courage and leadership....without the courage to attach his name to the call. You can't make this stuff up.
ReplyDeleteI am just curious which august organization has taken the initiative concerning this matter. Maybe I want to send them a check. Or perhaps there is no such organization.
ReplyDeleteThen and now, Rav Aron Schechter, the true leader of the American Moetzes, speaks openly, fearlessly, forthrightly and publicly about the Rabbi Natan Slifkin controversy case, with Rav Aron Feldman at his side (Parts I & II):
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO01hVfDFjI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrYL8OASxkk
Dvorim kedorboinos!
ReplyDeleteShimi no Raboisay Dayonim veRabonim,
Hoy! Al me ovdo ho'orets? A l asher ozvu es Toirosi, veloi ovu loleches bidrochov. Kvod haTo'oiro haKdoisho munachas bekeren zoviyes, uke'even asher ein lo hofchin! "KOROSI VE'EIN OINEH", Oy gevald, meh hoyo lonu. Ve'im hachresh tachrishi loes kazois, meh yihye lonu? Veim lo achsov EIMOSAY???
Sure! Schino haKdoisho!
ReplyDeleteI also would have liked to see a name. As to the letter - Imho he misses the point by comparing the heter to OO folks . We are taliking about corruption and dishonesty that would be totally unacceptable in any court of law or social setting
ReplyDeleteThe emes name of this organization is " Kabel es hoEMES mimi sheomro!
ReplyDeleteRav Shmuel was always known as a flip flopper and this is just another example. Except that this time he not only is taking someone else down he seems to be doing it on himself too. As they say what goes around comes around. It's just fascinating that it came about through one stubborn guy refusing to give a get.
ReplyDeleteI just looked at the poll, and it seems there are a lot of unhappy readers or trolls of this blog!
ReplyDelete"How sad that censure and rebuke has to come from Gedolei poskim overseas, or American Chassidic leaders"
ReplyDeleteActually the letter of protest from Rabbi Shlomo Miller and Rabbi Elya B. Vachtfogel were from the very first letters to be released on this matter.
I do not believe either Rabbi Miller OR Rabbi Vachtfogel Are Chassidic.
I read closely the two pages of text. I very much agree with everything in it. My feeling is, alas, the radical feminists
ReplyDeleteseem to be winning down in America.
Israel, especially Bnei Brak, where I live is strong and getting
stronger. Come all Jews to Israel, now!
Is this letter being distributed or printed anywhere else besides for this blog? It would be wonderful if it is was printed (or paid for advertising) in the HaModia, Yated, FJJ - although said publications would never take it even if paid to. Perhaps a page out of theunorthodoxjew's book. A mass mailing in Brooklyn and Lakewood?
ReplyDeleteYes- why is there no name?
ReplyDeleteHe forgot to mention the involvement of Rabbi Shmuel Fuerst.
ReplyDeleteAn "Open Letter" without a name attached is not worth much.
This Rabbi is not in the public eye, has never demanded respect as a Godol BaTorah, and has not deem himself a leader of a Klal.. Attaching his name to this missive would not be courageous; it would be foolhardy. He would have nothing to gain and everything to lose by outing himself.
ReplyDeleteThe members of the American Moetses,on the other hand, have accepted the mantle of Torah leadership. With such acceptance comes responsibility to take action as the need arises.
And never in the history of the Jewish people has such a great need arisen. Not even in pre-Talmudic times when the decree of תבעל להגמון תחילה was in force was the sanctity of the Torah so universally threatened. Anyone who does not do his utmost to abolish this most evil decree of our times does not deserve to be called a Godol BaTorah.
I myself still have to marry off children and therefore I similarly refuse to be unmasked lest I be labeled a maverick among my peers This is why I applaud the fortitude displayed by the Rabbis Eidensohn whose stance is evocative of the Mishnah, " במקום שאין איש השתדל להיות איש ". Thy are true heroes, while I timidly eschew the title Rabbi and instead cravenly cloak myself in the mantle of
John Halmark
This letter writer and his "organization" are not talking about the type of protest from Rabbis Miller and Vachtfogel. They want something along the lines of that Rabbi Roth from New York, who says that R' Nota and R' Shmuel should henceforth be treated as gentiles, or something like that.
ReplyDeleteThe Torah haKdosha was given equally to all Yidden. Chassidim, misnagdim, bent downs, bentups, frocks, long jackets, and all of Klall Yisroel. Veato Sechze were those that are the true Elite to handle dvar H' without negius, Anshei EMES, Sonei Botsa, ... with a SPINE. Straight shooters, and LO SOGURU MIPNEI ISH! Having less than that, need not apply. True GEDOLIM that have voiced their PSAK are those that immerse themselves in YAM HATALMUD, TORAH LISHMA YOMAM VOLOYLO, veneemon LaH' Ultoroso. Not to mention but a few, The RA"AVAD of Yerushalayim R' MS would have been from the ones selected by Moshe Rabeinu beruach haKodesh and the likes of Rashkebeha'g R'C' Kanievsky, that they breath Torah, and their veins flow with Torah, their kol mehus in life is Torah. These GIANTS are walking Sefer Torah's of the kind's of "Tov li Toras picho mealfei zohov vokessef". They have spoken! Vehevei zohir begachloson shelo tikove. Need we say more.
ReplyDeleteTo use the words of the holy bet yosef, they ought to be disemboweled figuratively speaking
ReplyDeleteA very well written and important letter, though I can't confirm some of the side points.
ReplyDeleteIt should be mailed to the community, and people should make a copy and send it to the Moetzes. (What's their address?)
The anonyminity is a minor problem, if any at all. It also appears that it was sent to the Moetzes signed; the signature blackened only for this blog
no, you disagree with the message.
ReplyDelete200 votes/ 80000 views is 0.25%
ReplyDeleteI could not disagree more.
ReplyDeleteThe cowardice of the rabbis is emboldened because they know that the המון עם might just be more cowardly than they are. So they plod along.
But even that is besides the point. This letter writer (you deemed him a 'rabbi'...based on what?) is decrying a horrible rip in the fabric of יהדות, and he doesn't have the guts to stand up and put his name to that? No one does? It's not my job to protect Judaism...it's yenem's??
I think you have it terribly wrong. If you can't own your מחאה to what is clearly a horrible chillul Hashem, then you aren't really protecting a valuable commodity to pass on to the children you're trying to marry off.
The polls prove only that R' DE doesn't use touchups and being very honest. It is self explanatory that these ROFL trolls just pass by to cast their votes as coached by these letter writers, that keep on changing dynamically every other day. Denials, forgeries, confirmations, coverups, coverdowns and what not. How else would they know about the poll. Indeed, just the other day they were begging not to disseminate it on the Internet. There aren't even that amount of steady bloggers around here to add up to such numbers. All these rubo kekulo steady bloggers are in line and agreement with these posts as you can see by yourself. The Gedoilei Poskim even ask that these mechoes should be increased. So much for the BLUFFERS.
ReplyDeleteWhat a great letter. At this years convention Rabbi Zweibel and the novominskers speeches were against open orthodoxy. Sure very easy to bash something your not close to and something you will not get flak for but now with this heter that undermines the covenant between Hashem and Klal yisroel something that endanger the future yichus of Klal yisroel and they remain silent?? I for one will never again attend the convention not will I follow what they say. They Have proven themselves to be partial, not concerned with the very foundation of Klal yisroel but are only concerned with protecting one of their own even if it means endangering the future of Klal yisroel. Does anyone believe Reb Elya would have remained silent? Rav Moshe, Reb Yaakov , Rav Ruderman or Rav gifted ? They would have torn Kria and proclaimed public demonstrations.
ReplyDeleteNo, not necessarily. It's just that these meaningless vaads l'maan this, that or the other are a dime a dozen, and we've all learned decades ago to ignore them. Fake organizations detract from the message. They do not bolster it.
ReplyDeleteI also wonder if the wording for option four would be "Refusal of people to admit mistakes." I would have voted for that, but did not vote since it uses the the word gedolim.
ReplyDeleteNot much if you need the author to stand behind his remarks , here are the remarks speak for themselves kabel es haemes mmi sheamro all of klal Israel, are thinking the same thing
ReplyDeleteYou have a great opportunity: to put your money where your mouth is. Send the Moetzes a letter and sign it.
ReplyDeleteThen maybe post it on this blog.
I remain,
HR (anonymous)
Ready to foot the bill? I'm sure it could be arranged.
ReplyDeleteHow about this? Mr. Ploni might go out of his way to promote that letter, while I'll try to help him! Suggest it directly to him or to Rav Daniel! ...
ReplyDeleteWith all respect to the Rav, I would like to suggest you are destroying your children's future. You are teaching them that the proper way of a Jew is to willingly make himself hostage to a Marriage System that in turn is in thrall to gangster-like leaders who Shmutz up the Torah. Avrohom, Moshe, Dovid, and many other Jewish leaders throughout history were mavericks, that is, outsiders that were chosen by Hashem to move the world from darkness to light. Your family, though, may end up indistinguishable from non-Jews who slavishly follow the fashions and fads of the day. Be a Hebrew. Cross over to the public side. Remember the heros who gave up their lives for Klal Yisrael. I wish you success with your inner struggle.
ReplyDeleteIf the author is not standing behind his remarks, then the letter contains nothing that hasn't already been said. It would add something only if the name of the person were known, and if he turned out to be someone of stature or at least the head of a legitimate organization.
ReplyDeleteAgain, this question is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. You are shooting at the messenger since you dislike the message. Please be forthright.
ReplyDeleteActually, it is very relevant. Among those who decry the actual heter that was given, there have been two schools as to how to approach it. One expresses their firm disagreement with the heter, while refraining from criticizing the mattirim personally. The other criticizes the mattirim personally. To date, no mainstream figure from the Litvish world has been identified with the second approach. This letter is advocating that approach. So, it is important to know where this is coming from.
ReplyDeletereread the letter of Rav Shlomo Miller and Rav E. B. Wachtfogel which clearly criticizes the mattirim personally
ReplyDeleteI reread it and saw no personal criticism. Please be more clear as to what you are referring.
ReplyDeleteRav Greenblatt is referred to as "rav" - which is clearly a personal criticism
ReplyDeleteIs that all you mean? First of all, there is no reference to either of the Rabbis Kamenetzky. Second of all, there is no comparison at all between that and the type of personal attacks in the Edah/R'Roth letters, or in the open letter in this post.
ReplyDeleteIt clearly was meant as an insult. There is no reference to the Kaminetskys since Rav Greenblatt gave the actual heter and was mesader kiddushin. The degree of criticism is not relevant to your original claim.
ReplyDeleteI disagree. The difference between air quotes around the honorific "Rav" vs. writing that R' Shumel "promotes and facitilates adultery" and "plays fast and loose with halacha" is readily apparent.
ReplyDeleteso there is a difference - but your original claim is wrong
ReplyDeleteMaybe on a technicality, but not as to its substance.
ReplyDeleteThe macho'oh penned by Rav Knopfler clearly attacked the matirim personally. His macho'oh was underwritten by the gedolei Bnei Brak including Rav Kanievski. They obviously consented to attack the matirim personally.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Eidensohn though, has chosen to remove Rav Knopfler's polemics, probably due to pressure from his arch rival Rav Miller from Toronto. This in essence falsifies the message being relayed by the Gedolim and relegating it from an attack on the mattirim as well as the heter to one addressing just the hetter. Unless of course RK requested his name be removed, though reasoning for that is beyond me.
"Rabbi" Halmark, do you know the identity of the writer? if so, perhaps disclose to us readers if not his identity, maybe something about this courageous individual who seemingly identified himself in the lions den, to the חכמי חלם making up our venerated Moetzes.
ReplyDeleteSurely Rabbi Miller is chasidish inclined. I know a son of his who wears a shtreimel.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if i have seen that one. Can you provide a link?
ReplyDeleteAvigdor you either are naive or you are a troll. The issue of Rav Knopfler is a complex issue with both sides claiming that either the presence or absence of his letter is a falsification . Lakewood politics is not my concern at the present. Rabbi Knopfler definitely has made a major contribution and devoted much time and effort to this issue - and is largely unappreciated or acknowledged by the main stream rabbis.
ReplyDeleteI haven't removed anything - there are in fact two versions of the letter - one with and the other without his protest. What constitutes falsification regarding this letter is being used to distract attention from the issue of the heter.
I will not allow more comments on this issue through at the present
Yehoshua if you want to modify your claim - go ahead but this is not a trivial distinction that you are dismissing
ReplyDeleteOnce again, I disagree. The all-out attacks on the integrity of those involved found in the open letter of this "organization," in particular with regard to the Rabbis Kamenetzky, has not been exhibited by anyone in the mainstream Litvish olam HaTorah. That is the point I made earlier, and I stand by it. If you are claiming that one of the letters used a condescending tone in referring to R' Greenblatt, I will grant you that, but it is you who are being trivial, not me.
ReplyDeleteso we disagree
ReplyDeleteJust got to the letter last night. Yiyasher kochacha!
ReplyDeleteIf you are claiming that one of the letters used a condescending tone in referring to R' Greenblatt, I will grant you that
ReplyDeleteIt is much more than a condescending tone. It is an outright dismissisal of Rabbi Greenblatt being deserving of the position as a legitimate Rav.
The letter did not attack the Kaminetzkys, because they are not the "poskim." However, if they would publicly stand behind their psak, they would be criticized in exactly the same (or worse) fashion. These letter are saying that it is time to publically acknowledge the true roll the kaminetzkys had in the "heter."
Sh'mos: 5:1 and Rashi there.
ReplyDeleteואחר באו משה ואהרן וגומר. אבל הזקנים נשמטו אחד אחד מאחר משה ואהרן עד שנשמטו כלם קודם שהגיעו לפלטין, לפי שיראו ללכת. ובסיני נפרע להם, ”ונגש משה לבדו והם לא יגשו“ (לקמן כד:ב), החזירם לאחוריהם (ש"ד שם יד):