Wednesday, May 6, 2015

The Shidduch Crisis: A spiritual explanation

Update  - Rap's Rebuttal

Guest Post Rabbi Yoel Small, M.Ed.

More and more Americans are choosing not to marry. The percentage of never married Americans over the age of 25 has more than doubled to over 20 percent. Forty five percent of these never-married Americans over the age of 25 either do not want to marry or are unsure whether they would eventually like to get married. (See link) Of those that do marry, over fifty percent of marriages end in divorce. To sum up, we reside in a society that is continuously downgrading the value of families. 

Unfortunately, these attitudes have infiltrated our communities as well. The singles scene in the Upper West Side and Washington Heights neighborhoods of Manhattan - which hosts thousands of Jewish singles over the age twenty five - is one of its products. The alarming, ever-rising divorce rate is another one that has its roots the discard of the value of maintaining a wholesome family setting. 

Our community has also unfortunately been affected by a seemingly unrelated marital crises - the shidduch crises. This crises is unique in that it seems to only be affecting women. While several explanations have been suggested as the route cause of the crises, the age-gap theory is the predominant one.

There have been several initiatives that have been advanced to rectify the shidduch crises. One philanthropist, in an effort to ease the shidduch crises, has offered to ensure that, under certain conditions, each matchmaker will relieve $10,000 per match made.

The Rambam rules that when we see a crises befall our community, we have a responsibility to soul-search in order to understand why Hashem has brought this upon us - which will cause the  crises to leave us. The Rambam notes further, that refraining from soul-searching and attributing the crises to natural causes is cruelty

WHILE we’ve seen technical explanations as to why there may be a shidduch crises, have we seen spiritual reasons suggested? 

Is it possible that Hashem has allowed this shidduch crises to come about in order to save the Yiddishe family? As we’ve noted, we reside in a society where more than one out of every two marriages end in divorce, and the rate is continuously rising. Unfortunately, in our communities the divorce rate is also, sadly increasing at an alarming rate. 

What is the cause of all these divorces? While I cannot answer this question, the fact is that the vast majority of divorces are initiated and sought by the wife. Several studies have been conducted as to which party chooses to divorce. The studies vary in their results. However according the lowest study, over 66 percent of divorces are initiated by the wife and 20% by the husband (11% were mutually sought). According to one study, over 90% of divorces are initiated by the wife. That’s between a three to one and a 9 to 1 ratio. Many therapists have explained that the woman, even with children, feels that “she could do better” - find a better husband and selfishly abandons her marriage.

It is very possible that maybe, just maybe, Hashem created the shidduch challenge we currently face in order to protect and secure the Jewish family from these societal influences. A person values and appreciates an item that was difficult to obtain much more than an item that was obtained with little effort. A wife will value a marriage that she had to, unfortunately, wait and seek for a very long time, much more than had it come effortlessly. It won’t be easy for her to just pick up one day and say “I can do better”, when she is aware that “it’s a man’s world out there”.

(Rabbi Tzadok Katz once mentioned in the American Yated that NASI has conducted studies that have shown that certain communities have barley been affected by the shidduch crises. Those communities that are less affected are the communities that seem to be less influenced by secular society and are a lot less likely to seek a divorce, unless absolutely necessary. And their definition of absolutely necessary does not include “I could do better”.)  

So in conjunction to these fine initiatives being advanced in order to solve the shidduch crises, wouldn’t it be prudent upon us to internalize the value of marriage, the way Hashem would like us to treat marriage? 

As many segulos are available and suggested, I would like to propose one as well. Can we suggest that a segula for a young woman to overcome her own personal shidduch crises would be to internalize and appreciate the value of marriage. To firmly accept upon herself that as soon as she merits to marry, she will value and appreciate the marriage. Once married, she will feel a responsibility towards her spouse and will never, ever seek to end it to “do better”. Midah kneged midah, may Hashem save her time and anguish, and unite her with her zivug quickly. Omain!

======================Rap's Rebuttal ===================

There is no "spiritual shidduch crisis" – it's all (hu)man made!

Guest post by RaP

Most of society's problems are created for very real reasons that have to do with the people who live in that society. The talk about a "shidduch crisis" in the frum world often leaves one thinking as if it's some sort of disjointed inexplicable surprise "earthquake" or "tsunami" that has risen from the dark beyond or mysterious deep and hit us hard, when that is far from the truth.

Over many decades of observing the rising problems relating to dating, shidduchim, older singles, out of town singles, singles events and all the constant talk about this subject, it becomes quite obvious that for some or other reasons the real factors that are at work are often overlooked or are just too tough to face.

Here are some hard-earned observations and conclusions based on real-life interactions with people seeking shidduchim in the frum world, from modern Orthodox, Yeshivish or Charedi, to strictly Chasidish, in no particular hierarchy of importance:

Young people today are not prepared for the hard realities of married life. The luxurious lifestyle and catering to every last whim of children and teens does not prepare them for either dating or marriage. Years spent in yeshivos, Jewish day schools and bais yaakovs where teachers fear for their salaries and never really talk about the daily sacrifices required to meet and keep one's bashert. Never-ending amusement trips, summer camps, vacations and the many family happy events are not good preparation for practical realities like getting and holding a job, buying groceries, paying bills, and managing a budget, taking out the garbage and doing laundry, and the real pain of having babies, changing diapers and raising children.

In short there is a major disconnect between the chinuch offered up and the requirements of real life at the end of the day. Kids expect to have all their wishes met, all expenses paid, and be taken care of, when to date and get married requires that you take care of that other person you are dating, then your spouse, children and home.

So many people just prefer staying at home and eating Mom's delicious kugels and cakes rather than face the ugly cruel world out there.

Too many people are brainwashed by the need for "perfect looks" as if a nation of narcissists has arisen. Every boy wants a beautiful thin (and rich) girl who looks stunning, and every girl dreams of a handsome prince from some romantic tale. This is a common affliction in America and the frum suffer from it a lot even though they are not as involved in the mainstream culture. Yet hardly anyone cares that beauty is only skin deep and "sheker hachein vehevel hayofi" is a very real bit of practical advice.

How many people put Yiras Shomayim and real Mentsclichkeit before anything else? In short people's values are skewered beyond repair so that it's no surprise that a lot of folks can't hook up because they are lost in dreamland.

In some circles girls are educated to "support" boys in Kollel. This was a very vital and important idea after the Holocaust a "hora'as sha'ah" to boost the status of Limmud HaTorah in a world that had lost the cream of its Torah scholars in the Holocaust and to assimilation. But that was then, and this is now. Today we have hundreds of thousands if not millions of strict Torah-observant Jews, and tens of thousands of Torah learners with yeshivos bursting at the seams.

The reality now is that people cannot count on other's supporting them for long periods.

Even very frum families cannot do it because it is impossible to support ten scholars in every family if every family is "only" pushing for Kollel marriages. The frum educational system is still functioning as if it's in a world of Shtetels when it fact we are in world of wealth with high standards of living. The world of the Chofetz Chaim living in a hut with mud floors is long gone, today people require luxuries as necessities. Among the modern Orthodox they have another social sickness, convinced that every kid has to go to an Ivy League college ignoring that with that comes mixed dorms, and moral destruction. Yet for them it is "college ubber alles" no matter that most of those kids lose their Jewish identity on campus very quickly. Needless to say living on a modern college campus is the worst preparation for dating and marriage, and that should be self-understood but it is ignored for the sake of getting a degree, in anything, at all costs. It is a tragedy!

Tuitions and living expenses related to raising children, even for dating itself, are sky-high, and for the Charedi world what is needed is more income producing men. The Chasidish world is ahead of the game here, especially in America, they push their young men out to work soon after marriage and thus it's more doable for them to marry at a young age, while their modern Orthodox and Yeshivish compatriots flounder for a form of parnossa. Thus, young women often rebel and seek higher employment, which is logical, but then that locks them out of the Kollel-shidduchim. Working guys and higher earning women are a big part of the unmarried population and it's because they are being discriminated against for not being in Kollel.

Another major factor that contributes to girls being single in the Yeshivish community, is that unlike in the Chasidish world where girls do not go overseas to seminaries, it has now become "the divine right" of most Yeshvish girls in America, like the modern Orthodox girls do, to expect a year or two of an all expenses paid year or two of study, touring, and fun and games in Israel. During 12th grade she dreams of being in Israel, then spends a year or two out of circulation in Har Nof, then it takes another year or two for her to land and get down to dating back home in the USA. By that time she is already about 21 and she wonders why she is not getting as many dates. Unlike the Chasidish girls who do not leave home, get a good practical Chinuch in home making and being a good wife and mother who start dating by 18 and by 20 most are married.

It's absurd to read ads in the frum papers urging parents not to send their sons to Israel to help solve the lack of good guys, when the problem is the girls who should not be sent away when they should be dating instead and getting ready for marriage. But no, people must have their good times, nothing to do with preparation for dating, marriage or life, just another entitlement and desire for long vacations, being taken care of by Mommy and Daddy, and the easy life.

Then people wonder why things are not working out. How can they if you spend your life and all your money spoiling your children, giving in to all their whims, and then wondering why they don't know how to have a real relationship with a member of the opposite sex and be ready for marriage, parenthood, home-building and dealing with all the curve balls life throws at you and still be in one good monogamous healthy marriage for life, til death do us part, something that is becoming harder and harder to attain, due to our own very human failings.

65 comments :

  1. Am I the only one who thinks this is wacky?

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  2. Well said, Rabbi Yoel Small, M.Ed.

    Yasher Koach!

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  3. Before any get is written, the couple should be required to undergo marriage counseling. Today, this is never done anymore; in fact, feminists / agunah activists vehemently oppose such a requirement. I don't understand why, unless they are the same ones who advocate to wives "i can do better'', a this author discusses.

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  4. And what ist the contribution you expect from men?

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  5. Actually, your segulah seems counterproductive:
    The problem ist that there seem to be more women than men out there. If a woman decides she can do better and divorces, her ex-husband is again avalable. This is as if there were two of him, which would help counter the numerical imbalance...

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  6. The figure quoted, "50% of marriages end in divorce". That not to say that 50% of people who get married get divorced, in my opinion. A large part of that 50% are second marriages, meaning that those that get divorced are more inclined to get divorced again than those that never divorced.

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  7. When they say we have more divorces than before, is that because there are more of us now or is it a higher percentage than before?

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  8. No contribution from men needed, presumably. Acc. to this shtickel Torah, it's mostly the women who are undermining marriage, so they are getting their arms twisted so that they'll behave better.

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  9. He should also internalize and appreciate the value of marriage and commit to remain married and not give it up.

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  10. Yes, there are more of us now who enable women to destroy their families for ulterior motives.

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  11. In general, it is men who have to be dragged kicking and screaming to a marriage counselor, the women seem to have more affinities with those kinds of practices...

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  12. Proportionally, there are clearly more divorces.

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  13. If a woman (or man) is stuck in an unhappy marriage, it is cruel to both partners to force them to remain together. i would argue that people do find a value in marriage already- divorce is the last resort for when nothing else works, or when one side is clearly abusive/neglectful/etc.

    I would also argue that the shidduch crises might be caused by our societies tendency to make sure men and women never see or hear from each other. They are then thrown into the dating world, with (a good portion of the time) no idea on how to interact with the other sex.

    I learnt more about life and interacting with women from one semester in college (a public college) then I did from 12 years in yeshivas.

    Furthermore, the fact is the Shidduch system is often run on shallowness. how you can expect to really know someone based on 2-6 couple f hour dates is beyond me. Instead, people seem to marry often based on slight attraction and beign able to somewhat tolerate the other, and then hope love/mutual depth of feeling towards one another will follow. Many times it doesn't, and the couple is miserable after.

    Another point is the many, many cases where the parents are the ones choosing who their children can date - often based on what the parents find attractive, not the potential shidduch. If a "child" is old enough to marry, they are old enough to choose their own husband/wife.

    Finally, I would restate and agree with what Garniel said above.

    -M

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  14. I disagree (about men not wanting marriage counseling.)

    If so, that is irrelevant. No get should be written without the couple going to marriage counseling. And this requirement should be mandatory. Even if both sides waive this requirement.

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  15. Rabbi DT: (or rabbi small) since you have a background in therapy, can you confirm or deny this supposed statistic?

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  16. For every girl who can't find a guy there's a guy who can't find a girl.

    http://5tjt.com/the-shidduch-crisis-explained/
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-se0THmYX-1Q/UPlpSB2HpTI/AAAAAAAAAPg/JV5t6kpm0HU/s1600/Shidduch+graph.jpg

    Maybe the reason the majority of women initiate divorces is because the majority of men are abusers or philanderers who don't want the marriage to end because they like their current situation regardless of how their wives feel?

    Maybe.
    Divorced women are far more likely than divorced men to say they are happier than when they were married, find several studies,

    http://www.adn.com/article/20120624/kleinfeld-most-time-wife-initiates-divorce

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  17. Counterintuitively, the communities that strictly separate the genders have the longest lasting marriages. The same can be said about the communities that have short dating. Their marriages on average far outlast the communities with long dating (months and years of dating before marriage.)


    And one spouse cannot and should not force a divorce if the other spouse sincerely wishes to continue the marriage.

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  18. I would also argue that the shidduch crises might be caused by our societies tendency to make sure men and women never see or hear from each other.

    So its not a numbers issue? It isn't more difficult for girls than for boys?

    Additionally, yeshiva students and Beis Yaakov girls still get married porpportuantly, a lot quicker than the rest of the world.

    I learnt more about life and interacting with women from one semester in college (a public college) then I did from 12 years in yeshivas.

    I'm sorry that your time spent in yeshiva did not teach you proper human sensitivity and interaction. That's an anomaly. On college campusos, with all the rape that goes on, girls are treated with respect?

    how you can expect to really know someone based on 2-6 couple f hour dates is beyond me. Instead, people seem to marry often based on slight attraction and beign able to somewhat tolerate the other, and then hope love/mutual depth of feeling towards one another will follow. Many times it doesn't, and the couple is miserable after.

    Why do they divorce a lot less often?

    http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/11/weiss-dodelson-gital-face-of-agunot.html

    If a woman (or man) is stuck in an unhappy marriage, it is cruel to both partners to force them to remain together.

    http://www.divorce.usu.edu/files/uploads/lesson4.pdf

    A large majority of individuals in unhappy marriages who hang in there and avoid divorce end up reporting their marriages are very happy a few years later. For the most part, those who divorced and even those who divorced and remarried were not happier than those who stuck with their marriages.

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  19. Question for RaP -


    Why don't the higher earning women date and marry the working guys?

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  20. Rabbi Small asks:

    Can RAP offer some further explanation to his
    theory. Is he disputing the age-gap theory, or does he agree with it but
    he is disputing the potential spiritual cause? If RaP is disputing the
    age-gap theory, how does he explain it? Is he suggesting that boys do
    not have a larger pool of girls to date? Is he suggesting that the birth
    rate is stagnating and not increasing?

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-se0THmYX-1Q/UPlpSB2HpTI/AAAAAAAAAPg/JV5t6kpm0HU/s1600/Shidduch+graph.jpg

    http://5tjt.com/the-shidduch-crisis-explained/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkXEW5mR5ss

    If RAP is disputing the spiritual cause of the shidduch crisis, why are girls having a harder time than boys?

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  21. If a woman (or man) is stuck in an unhappy marriage, it is cruel to both partners to force them to remain together.

    Divorce is cruel to the children, who are blameless in the matter, and often hampers their development and emotional well-being.

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  22. The overall marriage situation is much worse than what is being discussed here. The circumstances of those seeking to get married is public knowledge because singles events, singles websites, etc. take place openly. Plus, it's sometimes obvious who is single. For example, in Shachris Minyanim in many communities a single man does not generally wear a Talis.

    Yet, among a significant number of those who are married, there is stuff that goes on that I cannot spell out here, (1) because it is not something to be publicized, and (2) it is so unbelievable that if I didn't have the information from reliable sources I would discount it. I can't expect anyone here to take what I document seriously simply because I say it.

    At this point, I guess I'm supposed to display my humility and say I don't have any answers, the online equivalent of lifting my arms, with palms open and facing upward. But, I do have an answer, unrealistic as it is, which I have brought up in this forum ad nauseam. And that is to build from the ground up communities where people live according to the Torah that Rabbi Dovid Eidensohn teaches.

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  23. SnugglyKindness .May 6, 2015 at 8:48 PM

    WOW to Rap's rebuttal, excellent observations and conclusions.

    i gotta say it makes a heck of a lot more sense then the original post by Rabbi small. i think its a lot easier to put the blame on failed marriages or difficulty in attaining one by in a way saying we have been cursed or punished by G-d but what Rap says is far more logical and immediate.

    i don't think people like to take personal responsibility for their problems so they just say its from G-d instead of observing there actions and rectifying them. i think using Rap's observations we can reverse these self inflicted problems by doing just the opposite of all the causes listed here.

    i have often thought of these problems although more in a worldly sense (gentile and Jewish) and not it terms of a shiduch crisis cause the whole western world (which Israel very much seems to be a part of unfortunately) is a disaster at marriage and relationships (the latter which is forbidden to Jews but obviously the non-observant do it anyway).

    i have put most of the blame on the media and its depiction of love, romance, dating, relationships and marriage being complete fantasy infecting people's outlook thus destroying marriages. but i can understand Rap's conclusions even though i grew up in a highly dysfunctional intermarriage so i my self was not affected in this way but in others that probably apply more to gentiles then to Torah observant families.



    reading Rap's rebuttal also feels like a little bit of a wakeup call for me so i really appreciate Rap taking the time to write it for self reflections sake.

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  24. I don't have a mathematical answer to the age-gap theory, but if such a phenomenon exists, why is it that some communities, such as the Chasidic and Sephardic communities, are much less affected by the "Shidduch Crisis"?

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  25. Actually I think that both Rabbi Small and RaP make excellent points that don't have to be mutually exclusive. Regarding Rabbi Small's article, I just want to clarify that I do not necessarily agree with his cause-and-effect assessment, but I do think that the issue that he brings up is a very important one.

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  26. I would also like to make one addendum to one of RaP's points. In my opinion, the superficiality that exists in the shidduch world is worse in many ways that what exists even in the non-Jewish world. I will explain. If you would visit a college campus, or other setting with male-female interaction, you will witness an interesting phenomenon: Boyfriends and girlfriends walking around together where the girl does not necessarily look like a model. She might be overweight or somewhat unattractive in some way. How did this happen? Because these kids might have sat next to each other in class or been lab partners or something, and realized that they have something in common besides good looks. This is something that will never occur in the frum shidduch world. The reason is because the boy views the girl's profile on a shidduch resume, and usually sees her picture, and if she is not stunning and skinny, and if she has no money to make up for it, then no chance that she will be picked out of a list. These girls will unfortunately not have the chance for a boy to see them for who they are on the inside. Unless she has some redeeming superficial quality, she will sadly sit and watch her friends get picked before her. This is a sad fact, and that's just the way it is. Another facet of the shidduch crisis.

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  27. Thank you. By the way, coming from a "dysfunctional marriage" in the olden days was no problem. People worked hard at manual labor. Husband's were away from home for long periods. many women died in childbirth. Many children grew up as virtual or real orphans or had to suffer with grumpy and complicated step-parents. Talk to old folks, there were lots of real life "Cinderallas" both in the old country and in the New World -- but, there was no "shidduch crisis" (even though God was afflicting lots of people with the sufferings of an Iyov) -- why was that? Because they were oriented and rooted in reality and not in a world of make-believe and those old-timers were not spoiled brats. They were tougher and knuckled down to dealing with the realities of life and with the grind of every day subsistence. Not so today, when most kids are spoiled rotten, have everything handed to them on golden platters as they remain hooked up to the never-emptying silver spoons in their mouths, no wonder they are afraid of marriage and are clueless about getting and staying married in the real world of blood sweat and tears.

    Life, and dating and marriage, is like a very tough job and career and you have to work at it and know the ground rules. It is no use applying for marriage and then working with the ideals of Disney land and Television land, or for the very frum, relying on pie in the sky lectures and ideas foisted by the ArtScroll mileiu, and motivational speakers who just do not sound very real in what they are foisting on the gullible public who really need more of the proverbial kick in the pants than all the packaging in cotton wool that does nothing for coping with the realities of life in all its stages. Something that the olden days people were far better at. Lots of grumpy and ugly and odd people all managed to date, get married and raise families, simply because they were tuned into reality and were not spoiled rotten like today's kids.

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  28. If two people got themselves together and created children, it is generally cruel to the children for the parents to put themselves ahead of their children and divorce. Unless the atmosphere at home is constantly poisoned by terrible fighting and bickering, which is usually not the case.

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  29. You are joking right? If you think this is about 1 + 1 = 2, then you will never understand social problems and how to potentially solve them.

    Many high earning women from the Yeshivish world in America have been brainwashed to think they must still support some yet-to-appear future Gadol who wants to be on "life support"! These young ladies are often part of very frum families and have brothers and even fathers who are Torah teachers and Kollelniks. They are not modern Orthodox (yet) and consider themselves part of the Aguda-type world -- which in turn in effect treats like like non-entities because the official ideology and group think that is taught in every Litvish yeshiva and similar bais yaakov that they must either learn for ever (if they are guys) or they must support husbands in learning for life.

    Just look at the main and biggest Litvish yeshiva in America BMG in Lakewood. All girls are deemed to be future "morahs" and all bochurim are future "kollelniks" and no one dares speak out that only a small percent will pan out like this and most people will have to go to work to support themselves. But that only happens when they have about 3, or 4 or 5 kids. The guy is already too old to learn something good to do in life and the women are burned out. They are the role models and pace setters for all the singles in the Yeshivish world to emulate. If a girl does not get married by 21 and she decides to go to graduate school to become something, she is then viwed with supicion as if she is defective goods. Now this girl is still dreaming the Kollel dream, but the Kollel world has effectively cut her loose, she is over-qualified and ironically makes too much money to support a Kollelnik. Not just that she has developed a professional sense and career while the older bochur is still something of raw product and bumpkin compared to her. Now you say okay let her marry a guy who is working, but who is that guy exactly? Good guys are not working, they are still in yeshiva! They can be there for decades into their 20s, 30s and 40s as bochurim, while there is no such remedy for the girls. So the type of working guys out their are not for her and she remains single...waiting for the Mashiach, literally!

    In the Torah world today, single guys who work are viewed with suspicioun. They are classed as "bums" or "ADHD" or something else is "wrong" with them. It's a complicated dance.

    As for many among the modern Orthodox, sad to say but true, quite a few have been having sex since high school, definitely through college so why should they settle down when it is far easier to rent than to buy!

    People need to stop moaning about a nebulous "shidduch crisis" out there in the world, and get real and become very practical how they intend to go about fixing it. If a pipe burst in your house you would fix it quickly, by being practical, likewise being practical is the start of fixing any social crisis. Marry the next person you go out with! Oh now? Why not? You like being single so much that you want to be fussy? Okay marry one person out of the next five you go out with withing the next year! At least if you starting THINKING in such terms you are on the road to recovery. You can't keep on voluntarily drinking the poisoned cool aid and complain that you are being unfairly poisoned! It's complicated!!!

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  30. SnugglyKindness .May 7, 2015 at 12:55 PM

    what i meant by "highly dysfunctional intermarriage" was that my father drank him self into insane rage morning, noon and night. there was almost daily/nightly screaming matches between my mother and gentile father.

    i lived in constant fear cause my father was Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde and would go from being nice to both emotionally and physically abusive to me.

    they separated when i was 10 years old and when i heard the news that he was moving out, oh what a relief it was.

    maybe "in the olden days (that) was no problem" but im really happy that today it is a problem.

    i highly doubt "Suffering prepares you for the nuts and bolts of married life" in this situation but i don't doubt iv benefited in other ways as i am a firm believer that one can not truly appreciate and understand light until they have seen/experienced complete darkness.

    it affected me greatly and i turned into the same monster as him in my last relationship that tanked, destroyed my soul and laid the foundation for hearing about the torah, accepting it and becoming determined to change my ways.

    which im happy to report now about 5+ years from then i am a completely different person then i was then thank G-d.

    despite all this i agree with what you say here but i just don't believe our definitions of "dysfunctional marriage" are the same at all. but if we go with your definition of "dysfunctional marriage" then yes your right in all you say.

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  31. SnugglyKindness .May 7, 2015 at 1:15 PM

    wow, another great observation. il say im really happy to be reading this thread cause this post and replies like this personally apply to my self.


    in my previous secular life i have dated women who were sub attractive and i loved them like anyone would a supermodel i guess (not that i would know).


    but when ever iv been set up for dates (not that many times mind you as i have not been actively looking but will be soon) appearance has been a pretty important thing to me but it wasn't in past relationships cause i met these women under casual circumstances and the relationships blossomed from interaction and dialog.


    so much to learn from much of whats written here and apply it to life.

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  32. @Snuggly - an interesting observation regarding secular/non frum male female relationships.

    Unfortunately there seems to be a major problem. Men will in fact marry women they don't view as attractive because they got to know them as people. However they also seem to have little problem having a mistress or girl friend.

    In short if there is no concern for comparison of wife with other women or other men's wives then looks are not so critical - though they clearly are still very high in the secular world.

    But in a world where comparisons are readily available then a wife who is not concerned with her appearance or a husband who has access to more attractive women - is a basis for disaster.

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  33. SnugglyKindness .May 7, 2015 at 3:27 PM

    well when you speak of men marrying an unattractive woman and then cheating or having a an attractive mistress that goes the other way around as well. men who have very good looking and attractive wives cheat with far less attractive women.

    the science of this was explained in the video that i posted on the other topic about porn (which that particular link was taken down due to what was deemed as containing inappropriate images).

    it simply comes down to (and i heard this at an Arachim lecture a few years ago where the Rav spoke on the laws of niddah) that familiarity breeds contempt.

    constant sexual relations with out a break leads the man to become repulsed by the woman and crates a negative energy almost like 2 positive magnets being pointed at each other.

    this is what i understand and believe is what causes so much cheating and mistresses.

    if you saw the example given in the video i posted it showed that Hugh Grant who was married to one of the most stunningly beautiful women in the world at the time got caught and arrested for enlisting the services of an fairly unattractive prostitute.

    the simple explanation is just that its old vs new or replacing the familiar with the unfamiliar.

    its just the way the brain works which is why the laws of niddah and its 2 week separation work so well and have the potential to keep a marriage fresh.

    gentiles and secular Jews do not practice the laws of niddah so there for their wives/girlfriends become repulsive and disgusting to them.

    without getting into details i absolutely know this from first hand experience as well and now it all makes sense to me.

    so i don't believe that its comparisions or because men married unattractive wives that they seek out mistresses its just that they have far to much exposure to there wives with out any break.

    as the rabbi at Arachim said in a lecture that every 2 weeks since he married his wife its always like there wedding night after the niddah period is over. thats a pretty strong testament to this explanation for me.

    ReplyDelete
  34. And yet, most women in the frum world, even those who are not especially attractive, do get married. And I know many attractive women who have not found shidduchim. Both of which observations undermine your argument of superficiality.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Consider: there was a time that being divorced might mean, for the woman, a life alone in abject poverty. Lack of readily available reliable birth control and abortion illegal and dangerous had its own implications for a divorcée. Law did not make divorce easy, nor did many women have the means to even hire a lawyer. A divorcée might face discrimination in housing, employment, and in friendship, and even abandonment by family members. A child born out of wedlock would face his/her own challenges that a divorcée would ultimately have to deal with, not to mention the divorcée possibly having limited options for child care, and the impact a pregnancy and birth like this would have on any job the divorcée held. The results of the divorcée becoming ill could b staggering for her and her children if she lacked insurance -- a real possibility -- and given the lack or sparsity of government and social programs. Going to a psychiatrist for psychotherapy carried a huge stigma. The pharmacopoeia available to blunt the mind was not necessarily available to a divorcée, and she could be limited in her options to alcohol, cocaine, and heroin. Divorce was not the relatively painless process it has become in American society. These factors may have led to marriages in general lasting longer than today.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Consider: there was a time that being divorced might mean, for the woman, a life alone in abject poverty. Lack of readily available reliable birth control and abortion illegal and dangerous had its own implications for a divorcée. Law did not make divorce easy, nor did many women have the means to even hire a lawyer. A divorcée might face discrimination in housing, employment, and in friendship, and even abandonment by family members. A child born out of wedlock would face his/her own challenges that a divorcée would ultimately have to deal with, not to mention the divorcée possibly having limited options for child care, and the impact a pregnancy and birth like this would have on any job the divorcée held. The results of the divorcée becoming ill could b staggering for her and her children if she lacked insurance -- a real possibility -- and given the lack or sparsity of government and social programs. Going to a psychiatrist for psychotherapy carried a huge stigma. The pharmacopoeia available to blunt the mind was not necessarily available to a divorcée, and she could be limited in her options to alcohol, cocaine, and heroin. Divorce was not the relatively painless process it has become in American society. These factors may have led to marriages in general lasting longer than today.

    ReplyDelete
  37. The Nidda laws may keep a marriage fresher, but definitely do not stop the inevitable diminution of attraction over time. Apart from this being a self-evident truth (at least to married folks). it is also stated explicitly by the Rambam in Moreh Nevuchim (3:49):

    "Another important object in prohibiting prostitution is to restrain excessive and continual lust; for lust increases with the variety of its objects. The sight of that to which a person has been accustomed for a long time does not produce such an ardent desire for its enjoyment as is produced by objects new in form and character."

    (Translation from http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/gfp185.htm)

    ReplyDelete
  38. RaP's twenty cents is as usual high in humour content, and contains a lot of excellent points to boot. It's hard to argue that the factors he identifies do not at least play a role in the "Shidduch crisis".

    ReplyDelete
  39. Maybe you should try calling a shadchan and telling him that you have a smart girl with a great personalty who happens to be a size ten. Also, she has no family money. Then call him with a different voice and tell him you have a stunning girl, size four etc. with money. See which one will get more dates.

    ReplyDelete
  40. You really have to have your head in the sand to say that the shidduch situation these days is not based on superficiality.

    ReplyDelete
  41. So you really think that frum men have no mistress? I would suppose that the rate of marital infidelity is about the same in both worlds...

    ReplyDelete
  42. @Lieber - not interested in your fantasies - how about some evidence?

    ReplyDelete
  43. I know girls of both types who found shiduchim without trouble, and those of both types who had trouble finding a shidduch. In any case, physical attraction is not "superficial." It's an important component of marriage.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Speaking from the world of bnei Torah and yeshivishe baalei baatim, your statement, Lieber, is utter nonsense.

    ReplyDelete
  45. SnugglyKindness .May 8, 2015 at 11:24 AM

    well i suppose that you would suppose wrong.

    i know secular Jews who love to do this kind of thing; take any sort of negative social or criminal situation that is rampant in the secular world and then say that its either just as rampant or even worse in the Torah observant world.

    they do this in order to make them selves feel better about not following the ways of Torah. it justifies their behaviors and actions for them.

    although i would bet these kind of things do happen in the Torah community here and there and far in-between in the Torah world its a freak and rare phenomenon while in the secular and gentile world its a regular and normal occurrence.



    they take any situation where a crime, infidelity or indecent sex act is committed by Torah looking individuals in the media and then say to them selves "oh, well thats just one of the MANY who got caught!"


    its kind of like with those airplane Torah Jews who refuse to sit next to a woman on an airplane, cause a ruckus and hold the whole plane up for hours. it may of only happened once or twice but once the media and secular Jews get ahold of the story it turns into that telephone rumor game and now all of a sudden its happening multiple times a week/day.


    complete and total hyperbole.

    ReplyDelete
  46. SnugglyKindness .May 8, 2015 at 11:41 AM

    interesting, never heard that Rambam before.


    i wonder if it could also be the woman's aging over time? that seems to go a lot better for men then women and it also appears to me that physical appearance is far more important to men then it is to women.


    i don't think men and women view each other in the same way.

    ReplyDelete
  47. So are you saying that the average Jewish married woman is more attractive than the average non-Jewish married woman/girlfriend (assuming that we assume that Jewish and non-Jewish women are equally attractive!)? If that is not true, then your theory fails.

    ReplyDelete
  48. for once I agree with kishkeyum! well done!

    ReplyDelete
  49. I'm sorry, but you are definitely speaking of the reality of the Yeshiva shidduch scene. Maybe some exceptions, but not the general picture. Nine out of ten questions that the shadchanim ask are superficial. How big and how much. I don't see why this is so contreversial.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Yes, that's what I am saying.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Uh oh. I better rethink my position. :)

    ReplyDelete
  52. I've married off children, made a few shidduchim, and "red" a few more. Your understanding of the inyan is itself superficial, in my opinion.

    ReplyDelete
  53. I am happy to hear that you are a good person. I still maintain that a large percentage, if not most of the shidduch scene is based in superficiality, and that this is a greater factor than the "age gap crisis."

    ReplyDelete
  54. It's nothing to do with me being a good person; that wasn't my point. Rather, the point was that I've had lots of actual hands-on experience in shidduchim, and I can attest that it is not all about looks and money, contrary to your assertion.

    ReplyDelete
  55. See--That proves that I am right!

    ReplyDelete
  56. Sadly, I tend to agree.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Coming in late to this discussion.

    1. Regarding supposed mistresses, the tendency (and my observations) is that vast majority of mistresses are married women, too. And from the same social circles (i mean jewish, and usually friends or commonlt non blood relatives. Not the office secretary; that's for the movies.) Thus, saying that its only men who take mistresses is erroneous. Women take 'lovers.' (Prostitutes excepted, but that's not a major issue, though i notice chassidish wives tend to forgive their husbands when caught.)

    ReplyDelete
  58. Your "observations", MiMedinat_HaYam? You seem quite the expert relating authoritatively all these expert opinions on infidelity. How do you know "that vast majority of mistresses are married women"? Frankly this is a phenomenon, Jewish observant men with mistresses and Jewish observant women who are mistresses, that is extremely rare. Yes, that isn't the politically correct fact to relate to the blogeratti who live and breath attacking Judaism, but the truth is the truth. And yet here you are the expert on all sorts of infidelity.

    ReplyDelete
  59. I just want to share my experience and testimony here, My name is Natalia
    Mamochkina From Russia, i was married for 4 years to my husband and all of a sudden, another woman came into the picture.. He started hailing me and he was abusive..but i still loved him with all my heart and wanted him at all cost, then he filed for divorce, my whole life was turning apart and i didn't know what to do..he moved out of the house and abandoned the kids, So someone told me about trying spiritual means to get my husband back and introduced me to a spell caster atafospelltemple@yahoo.com so i decided to try it reluctantly. Although i didn't believe in all those things He told me about,
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    (10) WEALTH SPELLS
    (11) You want husband/wife to be yours forever.
    (12) PREVENT DIVORCE SPELLS
    (13) HELP YOUR LOVED ONE OUT OF PRISON
    (14) MARRIAGE SPELLS
    (15) BEAUTY SPELLS
    (16) ATRRACTION SPELLS
    (17) KISS ME SPELLS
    (18) ELECTION WINNING SPELLS.
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    Atafo spell temple is a temple which has been in
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    problem is, the spell works for the power behind it is very
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    temple they are rules that can never be violated:

    {1} Do not tell anybody about the spell until you have seen result
    {2} Do not work with them and the same time work with another spell caster it is either
    you make a choice
    {3} Do not come for jokes or take spell casting for granted.

    Then when he did the special prayers and spell, after 2days, my husband came back

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    If he get the details and know the problem you are facing,
    he will proceed with the casting of the spell immediately,
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    You can contact him with this email atafospelltemple@yahoo.com
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    ReplyDelete
  60. I just want to share my experience and testimony here, My name is Natalia
    Mamochkina From Russia, i was married for 4 years to my husband and all of a sudden, another woman came into the picture.. He started hailing me and he was abusive..but i still loved him with all my heart and wanted him at all cost, then he filed for divorce, my whole life was turning apart and i didn't know what to do..he moved out of the house and abandoned the kids, So someone told me about trying spiritual means to get my husband back and introduced me to a spell caster atafospelltemple@yahoo.com so i decided to try it reluctantly. Although i didn't believe in all those things He told me about,
    Atafo spell temple can give

    (1) CURE TO ALL KIND OF SICKNESS,
    (2) LOVE,
    (3) MONEY,
    (4) PROTECTION,
    (5) GOOD JOB,
    (6) PROMOTION,
    (7) EX BACK,
    (8) WIN LOTTERY,
    (9) PREGNANCY SPELLS
    (10) WEALTH SPELLS
    (11) You want husband/wife to be yours forever.
    (12) PREVENT DIVORCE SPELLS
    (13) HELP YOUR LOVED ONE OUT OF PRISON
    (14) MARRIAGE SPELLS
    (15) BEAUTY SPELLS
    (16) ATRRACTION SPELLS
    (17) KISS ME SPELLS
    (18) ELECTION WINNING SPELLS.
    (19) SUCCESS IN EXAMS SPELLS.
    (20) GET ANY GIRL/GUY SPELL

    Atafo spell temple is a temple which has been in
    existence for more than 52 year and it has been past from generation to
    generations. What they do is 100% guaranteed and no matter what the
    problem is, the spell works for the power behind it is very
    powerful and secured, no harm and very easy, And in this
    temple they are rules that can never be violated:

    {1} Do not tell anybody about the spell until you have seen result
    {2} Do not work with them and the same time work with another spell caster it is either
    you make a choice
    {3} Do not come for jokes or take spell casting for granted.

    Then when he did the special prayers and spell, after 2days, my husband came back

    and was pleading..he had realized his mistakes..i just
    couldn't believe it..Anyways we are back together now and we are happy.

    If he get the details and know the problem you are facing,
    he will proceed with the casting of the spell immediately,
    the only charges he accept is for you to broadcast to others the good work
    he has done for you, so that others can also get their problems solved.
    You can contact him with this email atafospelltemple@yahoo.com
    It works am happy again at last. g

    ReplyDelete
  61. Informative piece ! For my two cents if people are wanting a IRS W-9 , my friend filled out a template form here http://goo.gl/8WSnrT

    ReplyDelete

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