I recently spent time listening to Rabbi Avraham Ort tragic story. How he went from a fulfilling and happy life of Torah study, a fine wife, wonderful children - all supported by an inheritance millions of dollars.- to an impoverished refugee, divorced and with all his children turned against him. What he said was shocking and I found it hard to believe this story. However the validation of what he told me - the details and full documentation (Letters from Rabbis) are on the site Emes VShalom . This is a case of someone who says, "We were happy for many years then my wife asked for a divorce but I don't know why"
It boils down to his wife going to secular court - without permission of beis din and getting his inheritance from his father ($7,000,000). He was ordered to pay child support of $25,000 a month - however after being left penniless he left America to avoid the court created obligations. His children were told that their father left them penniless and that they subsisted on money from tzedaka. His children have been totally alienated and now hate him because of what they heard from their mother. He gave her a Get without a fight - even though it was his only real weapon against her use of the secular courts to bankrupt him.
At this point the goal - agreed to by the gedolim - is that the issue needs to be settled in beis din. His wife has consistently refused despite the clear directives of the gedolim (Letters from Rabbis).
He has asked me to publicize his case to help create pressure on his former wife - with the hope that this Ort family tragedy be resolved through the involvement of a proper beis din. I suggested that he write letters directed at his alienated children and that I would publish them. The first letter will appear soon.
If his ex-wife would like to write her perspective on the events - I will be glad to publish it. Please take the time to read the documentation on the Emes VShalom site
If his ex-wife would like to write her perspective on the events - I will be glad to publish it. Please take the time to read the documentation on the Emes VShalom site
Well, she does have the Cattle Prod rabbi on her side (sarcasm).
ReplyDeleteA truly sad case.
Notice from The rabbinic letter that they forbid using civil court or aiding a person who uses civil court. Do u see any American rabbis protesting this practice?
ReplyDeleteSecondly, of note this case talks about a woman litigating after RECEIVING HER GET! SO MUCH FOR THOSE THAT ADVOCATE A RAPID GET ON DEMAND!
http://law.justia.com/cases/new-jersey/appellate-division-unpublished/2009/a1431-07-opn.html
ReplyDeletehttps://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/NJCCR-Support/conversations/messages/8977
http://www.leagle.com/decision/200781841AD3d777_1235
There is another side to this story. I believe that the Beis Yosef (Navorhodok) beis din (or some other beis din) supports her and gave her permission to go to arkaos. Don't just post one side of a sichsuch.
ReplyDeleteMoe you are a hypocrite. How can you defend RAS & RAF NOT going to Bais Din when summoned and ordered by Rav Moshe Feinstein and the Satmar CRC Bais Din, so how can you say that Rabbi Ort is "correct" and that Mrs. Ort should go to Bais Din when summoned by Gedolim???
ReplyDeleteBasically Mow, Mrs. Ort is only doing what your friends RAS & RAF are doing mocking Bais Din because they are think they can outsmart and out-wait the system of Dinei Torah Al Pi Halacha and just go by the law of the jungle of "survival of the fittest" meaning the biggest 900 pound gorilla in room always "wins" by dint of their ability to game the system against victims.
You can't have both ways Moe, make up your mind and stop making comments in such debate because of your admitted conflict of interest!
Sheesh, that what you call real Chutzpa!
r' eidonson enough with your bullying. try to imagine for a minute a husband who went OTD telling his wife that he is with holding the get until he gets a better settlement than the court awarded him. i presume you would see that as a terrible injustice. now here is the idea you need to wrap your head around not every ortho rabbi agrees to the UltraOrtho idea of whether and what BD should settle the outstanding monetary issues in a divorce, now a husband withholding a get because he feels that the BD he chose (which happens to think he should get a better settlement than the court decided) should be hearing the case. Is quite analogues.
ReplyDeletehttp://law.justia.com/cases/new-jersey/appellate-division-unpublished/2009/a1431-07-opn.html
ReplyDeleteis this document relevant to the case? It is also divorce, also about someone called avraham ort.
Hmmm, there seems to be a slight bias towards men on this site when it comes to divorce...what about the men who leave their wives, and never pay child support. I know what I'm talking about - I have personal experience. And my situation was also as you put it, 'with no prior warning'
ReplyDelete@Its not as easy - I would welcome a guest post from you describing your experience. I think it is important to tell both sides of the story.
ReplyDeleteI cant discuss my own story, but I will say that there are as many nasty men out there as there are women. Some women make all types of unreasonable demands, and refuse to take the get when offered, and spread untrue damaging rumars.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the Beis Yosef (Navorhodok) beis din (or some other beis din)
ReplyDeleteWhy haven't you presented precisely those who support her, with the documentation?
@ its not so easy - so please make a composite of some of the cases you know about or persuade someone to write up her story.
ReplyDeleteIndeed. Rabbi Ort should have not given a Get while his wife was using arkaos against him. If she wanted a secular court to use secular law for part of the divorce process she should have been told she'll have to use the secular court to issue her a Get as well cause he ain't gonna.
ReplyDeleteI'm curious how ort got you to do his dirty work, as if he hasn't put his wife and children through enough. Although I find your hubris that mrs ort would actually read your blog mildly amusing I am wondering if you attempted to contact the family. ( this was forwarded by a friend as I don't usually waste my time with this garbage but I am willing to make an exception in this case) you should be embarrassed to continue to torture this family Avraham has put them through enough. Ask him if he would like all of the facts made public or only the specific ones he decided to share with you. 'Refugee' 'forced to flee' The man is a pathetic example of a failed husband father and human being. When you research and learn more facts I look forward to reading you follow up.
ReplyDeleteMay I ask if you honestly believe that all these rabbis actually sat down and spoke with the woman and heard her side of the story? Do you believe rav Shteinman actually went through all the records and details of this case? You know how this works; a macher goes to the busy rabbi with a story and the rabbi accepts it and signs the decree based on whatever the macher says. Please don't use the fact that rabbis signed something as meaning anything.
ReplyDeletei looked at all of the links provided here and the letter by the rabbis. having done so, the story as told above, is extremely hard to believe to the point of being impossible to believe. to believe this story, you have to assume that almost everyone involved is an something not good.
ReplyDelete1) the husband's lawyer was incompetent, completely and utterly incompetent if he allowed such a judgement to be made.
2) the judge directed this yeshiva guy to go out and get a job that allows him to pay 25K a month? is this judge for real? exactly how many jobs bring in that type of cash?
3) this woman got 7 million in assets and yet the tzeddakah people are so dumb, so blind that they're willing to give her money?
4) the mother - she got all that money yet is able to hide her wealth, she doesn't spend a dime on her kids? her kids are so sheltered (apparently they go to college) that they have knowledge of what went on?
in short, someone is a telling a story which makes little sense.
@Knowsmore - since you claim to know more than I - why don't you share some of your facts. I am not declaring that he is right or that she is wrong. It seems clear though that beis din was not involved which is contrary to Jewish law. It also seems clear that a number of major rabbis feel that the matter was not handled properly. If you have information supporting her actions - I would be glad to publish it.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand from your comments it seems clear that you think that little attention will be paid to what appears on this blog so I don't know why you evven bothered to comment.
One thing we already know about "Honesty" is that he is neither honest nor original! How about you focus in the issues.
ReplyDeleteMy point is very simple, while "Moe" justified the fact that RAS & RAF don't have to respond to the call to go to Beis Din even though multiple Gedolim said they must, how could Moe say that Rabbi Ort is "correct" when all Mrs. Ort is doing is EXACTLY the same as RAS & RAF by ignoring Bais Din even though multiple Gedolim said she must!
Notcice how that question neither you nor Moe answer, and you just being his sockpuppet proves that you are as pathetic and clueless as well as lacking any sense of morality and human decency as he is. Shame on you DIS-"Honesty"!!
You "Honesty", like Moe, bow down to dishonest RODFIM and attackers! Shame on you!
(And please don't be a parrot, why don't you come up with an original thought in your pea-brain, won't you?)
Make up your mind DIS-"Honesty" you are either with "Moe" or against him, you can't have it both ways!
ReplyDeleteThe reason why I did not leave and details on the the first post is the same reason I bothered to post. If you would understand what mr Ort has put his family through, you would understand why I would not post personal Ort family details in a public blog. Why Mr Ort feels the need to come out now to further pain and humiliate his family just proves the sort of man he is. He has been playing the victim for years adding insult to injury after what he has put his family though. Unfortunately the 'major rabbonim' are a few rabbis close to Avrohom Ort the rest of the rabbis humiliate. I hope mr Ort is proud of the legacy he created.
ReplyDeleteI don't get it. I've read this blog for years, & I could swear that signatures of Rabbis are worthless- at least that is what I learned from the Dodelson story.
ReplyDeleteMy dear, beloved RaPper.
ReplyDeleteYou are a wonderful comic relief, and it is humorously entertaining to read your long-winded rants. They're cute! Lets finally take this obsession with Rabbi C. to hand.
Should The Yeshiva of Chaim Berlin have given RSC some severance pay? Probably yes.
However, RSC has proven throughout the years why they were right in bouncing him out of the yeshiva.
Let me remind you about the recommendation the Chofetz Chaim made to the Lomza Yeshiva for a mashgiach. Yet the Chofetz Chaim wrote a letter on Chol Hamoed, just a short while later, recanting his recommendation and insisting that they do NOT hire this person as a Mashgiach. Why? Because he came to gripe to the CC about his not having a job - thus making him unfit to be a mashgiach in a yeshiva!
What type of person writes letters to your newspaper of choice, the Jewish Press, lambasting and slandering a yeshiva? What type of person collaborates with your buddy Shmeel Fried - a close friend of your buddy Mendel Epstein - to cause damage to a Yeshiva educating people in Torah and Yiras Shomayim?
This is clearly indicative of person who is not befitting to be a role model of superior midos!
Contrast RSC to Rav Don Segal. Rav Don was thrown out of the Mir yeshiva in Brooklyn and his position of Mashgiach. Nu.
What has Rav Don done with himself since then?
Did he go around besmirching RSB and Mir Yeshiva? Did he team up with Klassy lowlifes and destructive personalities? No and no!
Instead, he is an inspiration of Torah and Yiras Shomayim to thousands and thousands of Yidden. His positive influence is felt all over the Jewish world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRkQs7HlGOs#t=53
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWe7rOiyFFI
So cut it out, RaPper! Do you really that RSC is still fit to be the mashgiach YRCB?!
What are the chances that he would not have had a huge blowout with RAS and RYD and caused CB to fall apart with a machlokes? Probably quite high.
Anyhow, what will be your choice language for me, RAS and RAF, sweetheart?
https://disqus.com/home/discussion/daastorah/daas_torah_issues_of_jewish_identity_58/#comment-1794994656
Teeheeteeheeteehee, Teeheeteeheeteehee, Teeheeteeheeteehee - Teewheeweeheeweewee!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s637-5A9Gro
If you think R. Ort can collectively fool the greatest Tzaddikim of our generartion, including HaRav Chaim Kanievsky, HaRav Aharon Leib Shteinman, HaRav Nissim Karelitz, HaGaon HaRav Moishe Sternbuch, etc. then you must also believe in the tooth fairy.
ReplyDeleteLet me break it down clearly for you:
ReplyDelete1) R. A. Ort is not a close relative, with lots of cash, of a big rosh yeshiva who went to advocate for him. Unlike Dodlesohn who had their close relative RMK advocate on their behalf, R. Orft did not have this. Additionally, R. Ort is penniless, while Dodlesohn is very wealthy and BMG does have a ten milion dollar a year budget to cover.
2) There is a huge difference between the American gedolim and those of the Holy Land.
Any more questions?
Only if they are against men. When they are against women, their signatures are valid.
ReplyDeleteHmm. Do you really feel this way?
ReplyDeletePlease read my answer to YF. Thank you.
Yeah. You realize how silly you sound? Either you respect "Rabbonim" or you don't. & apparently Ort has a wealthy family- that's who the wife is stealing from. So you're kind of not being consistent. Which you can be, but you look funny.
ReplyDeleteYF: So you believe in an all or nothing approach? Either you accept any letter from any rabbonim or you must reject all letters from all rabbonim? Determining whether a specific letter is authoritative cannot be done based on the content and signatories? All or none? No rabbi is more authoritative on a subject than any other rabbi?
ReplyDelete1)You realize how silly you sound?
ReplyDeleteSo, you begin your argument with an ad hominem. Neat. However, it does nothing for your argument.
2)Either you respect "Rabbonim" or you don't.
What are you responding to - point 1 or 2 of my original reply? Please be clear.
I'll repeat it for you again. There's a huge difference between American Gedolim and those of the Holy Land.
3)Ort has a wealthy family- that's who the wife is stealing from.
Either you cannot read or you are purposely lying! No, no. She stole his i-n-h-e-r-i-t-a-n-c-e. An inheritance comes from a dead family member, not an alive, wealthy cousin who helps cover your $10,000,000 budget.
4)So you're kind of not being consistent. Which you can be, but you look funny.
You finish off with another ad hominem. Neat.
Oh, when I have some time I'll link to your previous lies about Dodelsohn's PR hack, Shira Dicker, not working for Rivkie Stein - as well as your lie that Dicker/Stein did not claim that ORA was involved and supporting them.
Summarized 20 point response to above:
ReplyDelete1) I have been a serious commentator on this blog for five long years since its inception.
2) Question: How much is “some
severance pay” ?
3) Guaranteed: If the Chofetz Chaim was summoned to a Din Torah that Gedolim insist MUST be held he would NOT have ignored it.
4) 37 years ago there was only ONE newspaper under Orthodox auspices, the Jewish Press, and most Charedi Yeshivos and frum Mosdos used it because there was NO English Yated and Modia in those days.
5) Shmeel Fried is not the subject and I have no clue who or what R Shmeel Fried is personally or professionally or what he looks like even, all we can known is that he was hired as a To’en by the Landau’s and Veretzky people in Flatbush and he won their case.
6) I have never met and do not know Mendel Epstein, but people who do not believe in Dinei Torah in a Bais Din should love Mendel Epstein by relying on threats, intimidation, and bullying to get their way against weaker opponents.
7) “Blame the victim” does not work because RAS & RAF (and RYD) brought all this trouble upon themselves they have only themselves to blame for firing RSC and then ignoring not one but at least FOUR Hazmonas to settle the Din Torah brought by RSC. Those remain the facts of the case.
8) There is no “statute of limitations” in Halacha after 37 years to this type of case.
9) This case only has to do with two people/defendants, RAS & RAF, and not anyone else or anything else.
10) Logic would say that any Makom that is led by a Mesarev LeDin and Lo Tzayis Dina cannot be said to be filled with either correct Torah and lacks proper Yiras Shomayim.
11) R Don Segal obviously did NOT say “Nu” the day he was fired. R Don Segal was not “happy” that he was fired.
12) RSC is much older than R Don Segal and after he was fired he was a popular teacher and lecturer at Bais Yaakovs, gave many public Shiurim, wrote Seforim, and now he is very old but his mind is still very good and he still drives and gets around. And that is after surviving Hitler and the Holocaust when his parents were murdered by the Nazis, while R Don Segal is much younger and did not go through any of this horror
13) To repeat, there is an open Din Torah between RSC versus RAS & RAF and nobody else is involved, no yeshiva or organization.
14) Gauranteed, that if R Shmuel Berenbaum would have received a Hazmona from Rav Moshe Feinstein he would NOT have just tossed it in the trash.
15) Rav Shmuel Brenbuam and the Hanhola of the Mir Yeshiva welcome/d RSC to Daven in their midst and where he is still an honored visitor any time he wants to come to the Mir or Daven with them and then they give him a Shtender up front with all the other Hanhalla members.
16) Going to reputable Batei Din is NOT defined as teaming up with “destructive personalities"!
17) Questions: What makes R Klass a “lowlife”? What
crimes did he commit? What Halachos did he break? Is the Yated and Mishpacha
and Ami crowd any better than Klass and the JP people?
18) According Rav
Moshe Feinstein’s ruling, RSC is still100% fit to be the Mashgiach Ruchani.
19) Putting the cart before the horse is a bad argument because RYD & RAS & RAF brought about the 37 year (and counting) Machlokes on themselves by MIS-handling the whole RSC question.
20) Evidently, based on your own responses, we now see that you proudly put yourself with RAS & RAF and with Moe and Mrs. Ort that Bais Din is not for you/them. HaShem Yeracheim Aleichem Ve’Al Kulanu!
Here’s… “Moe & Honesty”: