Guest post by Allan katz
I recently said to a friend – that the people who cannot afford the expensive ' hechsherim' , the super glatt meat, the suits and Borsalino hats, women's wigs and Pei'ot , the imported or Nochri fruit and vegetables during Smittah, bug free ( but plenty of insecticide ) vegetables are buying these products , while those who can afford them don't. And it is not just a question of different communities spending money on different things or having different priorities, but it seems that the poorer communities are cutting back on healthy nutrition and this is impacting on kids' health development with problems of underweight kids and malnutrition. Stringent bug-free standards for vegetables mean that kids may also be missing out on many important green and leafy vegetables.
There is a video clip of the Harav Ovadia Yosef Z'TL on the -Credibility of the Heter Me'chirah hechsher . The interesting point for me was his statement that if you have extra money to spend, buy produce from the Otzar Beit Din. I have heard his son, the chief rabbi of Holon remark how families and especially the bigger families could not afford to pay the exorbitant prices of the Smittah le'mehadrin produce and meet the nutritional needs of their families.
I was wondering whether parents , educators and rabbis reflect on the saying – when you are machmir in one area you are mei'kel in another area ?
Who are you to stick your head into the debate regarding whether not following the heter mechira is just considered an extra chumra? I promise you that in the Chazon Ish's times, the economic situation was much, much worse than it is today. And I think that the ingestion of tolaim is more deleterious than missing out on kale.
ReplyDeletePlease explain to the poster that he has misunderstood the Rav. He specifically is not saying that it is a hidur to buy otzar beis din and states emphatically and repeatedly that heter mechira is 'mehadrin'. He says very clearly that otzar beis din is a waste of money.
ReplyDeleteStringent bug-free standards for vegetables mean that kids may also be missing out on many important green and leafy vegetables.
ReplyDeleteMr. Katz, you are incorrect.
1) Eating bugs is not an option for a Torah-observant Jew. Each bug consumed carries five different prohibitions.
2) Knowing how to check fresh vegetables for bugs is a relatively easily learnt skill. The solution is therefore easy: check your fresh greenery for bugs. If they are infested with bugs, there simply isn't any way for a Torah Jew to eat those particular vegetables with the bugs. They either have to get their produce from a different batch, buy those more expensive ones (if they indeed are reliably bug-free) or forgo the bugs and their supposed nutritional value. Consuming bugs is not an option.
__
A) Would you advocate theft, murder or violating any other Torah prohibition in order to eat some more vegetables?
B) Can you kindly define the term "super glatt meat", that you used?
C) Are you comparing a Borsilino hat, a suit etc to necessary nutrition? Please elaborate.
D) I have greatly appreciated some of your previous articles - which leads me to wonder. Is this writing based upon an emotional objection or disagreement you may have with certain Jews which has lead you bestow this criticism upon them in the name of nutrition?
And do you think in the time of the chazon ish they had special 'clean' vegetables? Or what about in the time of the gemara when there was no light or even running water for checking and cleaning. You think they didn't eat vegetables? You think they had ebible soap for washing lettuce in?
ReplyDeleteThey boughy ordinary food and looked at it before they ate it. Like we should be doing today instead of going mad about it. Don't quote about how many laavim it is unless you have a table showing their importance in the eyes of God. If you think they are more important than healthy children or even having some more money to buy your wife a present please prove it.
I think you misunderstood the poster. He didn't say you should eat bugs. He was talking about the standards today where people will only buy special expensive vegetables or when they won't eat any out of fear of bugs. Of course you check. The problem is the people who are too afraid to and therefore don't eat or buy expensive ready checked.
ReplyDelete1) I was referring to the Chazon Ish zt"l with regards to the heter mechirah. My point was that the Chazon Ish zt"l was not less of a rachman on Klal Yisroel than Allan Katz, and that during his days, the economic situation was much, much worse than it is today. And if there was a vegetable that was considered to be infested during the times of the Chazon Ish, they did not eat it then either, regardless of its nutritional content. Another point is that vegetables are known to be more infested today than they were in the past. As am evolutionist, you should definitely be able to accept the idea that insects have developed resistances to certain pesticides. There is also an idea attributed to the Steipler zt"l that the higher level of infestation is a correlation to the higher amounts of tum'ah present in the world today. And, in the old days, (meaning in decades past) they had something called DDT, which was much more effective at killing insects.
ReplyDelete2) Regarding your second comment, it says in the Gemara that one must give up all of his personal belongings to avoid doing a lav. So in this context, I definitely think that avoiding eating an insect outweighs buying your wife a new dress. Anyways, no one told you that you have to buy or eat the infested vegetable or even buy the "super-kosher" one. And my wife just got a new dress for Yom Tov so I think that she will be fine for the time being.
He was talking about the standards today where people will only buy special expensive vegetables or when they won't eat any out of fear of bugs.
ReplyDeleteYou have not explained why they are buying expensive vegetables. If expensive vegetables are their passion, then they have all the right o purchase it - as much as you have the right to purchase tickets to a Giants game - or any passion you may have. (Why is someone else's personal decisions any of mine or your business??? Discussing people is cause for shame.)
Additionally, what you and Mr. Katz have failed to address in a meaningful, clear and concise fashion is why you think others are wrong in their personal greenery choices. Using hyperbole and broad character assassinations are not meaningful.
The comparison between hechsherim and clothing struck me too as odd. It says more about the writer than his subjects.
ReplyDelete@Honesty - the issue of the change in standards - not just a change in the commonality of bugs - is an important point.
ReplyDeleteשו"ת אגרות משה יורה דעה חלק ד סימן ב
בעניין החרקים הקטנים הנמצאים בכמה מיני ירקות
ב' דר"ח אייר תשמ"ה
לכבוד נכדי אהוב נפשי הרב הגאון מוהר"ר מרדכי טענדלער שליט"א
הנה אף שקשה לי לכתוב כעת שאיני בקו הבריאות השי"ת ירחם עלי בתוך שאר חולי עמו ישראל, מ"מ מחמת נחיצות העניין אומר הדברים האלה.
שמעתי איזה אנשים אמרו בשמי איזו סברה בעניין התולעים הקטנים שנודע שנמצאים בהרבה ממיני הירקות. והנה ידוע שלא אמרתי בזה שום הכרעה. ולהיפך דעתי נוטה יותר להקל, וכמו שהזכרת בשאלה, שאתה ובני הרה"ג מוהר"ר שלו' ראובן שליט"א כתבתם לי, שאפשר שדבר שלא נראה למעשה להדיא לעינים אינו אסור, ולכל הפחות אינו בחשיבות בריה שלא תיבטל בתערובת כדאיתא בשו"ע יו"ד סי' ק', וזה נוסף ללימוד הזכות שמוזכר בערוך השולחן סימן ק' סעיפים י"ג - י"ח, או שאפשר לסמוך על דעת הסוברים שבריה בטלה בקרוב לאלף, או שבריה שאינה קיימת לעולם בעין בפני עצמה והיא נדבקת בתערובת וא"א להפרידה משם - בטלה, או משום שרבנן לא גזרו שבריה לא תיבטל בדבר מאוס שנפשו של אדם קצה בו.
וגם כמו שאמרתי לך ולעוד הרבה אנשים שבכלל יש חשיבות גדולה בהלכה למנהג העולם ולהיכא עמא דבר, ואסור להוציא לעז על דורות הקדמונים שלא הקפידו בדברים אלה משום שלא ידעו מהם (מש"כ רבינו במה שאין לשנות ממנהג דורות הקדמונים באגרות או"ח ח"ב סימן ק"ה ד"ה והנה להמחבר, יו"ד ח"ב סימן קמ"ו ד"ה ומה שכתר"ה דן להקל, או"ח ח"ג סוף סי' ט"ו, ויו"ד ח"ג סימן קנ"ד). ועל כן אמרתי שבלי לעיין היטב בדבר, שזה קשה לי כעת, אי אפשר להכריע לחומרא ולפרסם שיש איסור בדבר, וכל שכן שאין רצוני שיזכירו שמי כאחד מהאוסרים.
זקנך אוהבך בלו"נ, משה פיינשטיין.
And I don't know about you, but my wife and kids also do not want to eat bugs. Most wives are actually more makpid about bugs than the husbands. Please stop inventing imaginary issues about the wicked Haredim who keep chumros while their wives are dressed in rags and their kids are malnourished.
ReplyDelete1) More resistant to pesticide doesn't mean more or smaller. The numbers would balance out. At the time of the chazon ish they outlawed certain vegetables? Proof please.
ReplyDelete2) For a start no one is saying you should intentionally eat a bug. Of course you have to check.
There are lots of statements about what is important in the gemara and Shalom bayis has it's own share. This isn't a case of actively over on a lav but an expensive lifestyle choice just in case. Not buying gush katif lettuce is not the same as being over a lav.
No one outlaws vegetables; it is just common sense that if it is discovered that a certain species is available that people will stay away from it. And I do not know, nor have I even heard of a person who searches for bugs with a magnifying glass or a microscope. However there is a difference between a bug which can only be seen under a microscope and a bug that can be seen by the naked eye but is camouflaged or otherwise unnoticed. Rashi says on the word sheretz that you don't notice them unless they move. Many people are simply ignorant regarding the prevalence of bugs in certain species of vegetables. And I don't know why you keep bringing the Chazon Ish up, as I only brought him up with regards to the heter mechira, but I heard quoted in the name of the Divrei Chaim, who preceded the Chazon Ish, that when people get to shomayim, they will show them a plate full of the bugs that they ingested over the course of their lifetimes. Most people are somewhat sensitive to matters which involve not only a number of lavin but also defile the soul. I really don't know what your issue is. You will be held accountable not only for the bugs that you eat unintentionally if you were aware beforehand of of the likelihood of its presence in the food.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Eidensohn,
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect, how will Mr. Katz' screed bring about a mature and purposeful discussion about standards? if one would to bring about a meaningful conversation, wouldn't a presentation of sources - as well as clearly outlining the issue be a starting point?
A suit was mentioned as if it was a negative. Please! Rabbi Feinstein was alive before, during and after the sexual revolution of the sixties. He dressed in formal attire throughout. Prior to the sixties, so did a large percentage of the population - from Federal agents, to mobsters to college professors.
Is the current trend in higher schools of learning to wear undergarments (leggings for women and really low pants for men) a trend we are seeking to emulate?
This may have come across as overly critical. I respect Mr. Katz and his articles. I believe that this particular one missed the mark and will not bring about any sort of meaningful conversation about standards, their parameters and their application.
I found the Rav Ovadia video clip and the comments of his son
ReplyDeleteinteresting because they deal with the question of the problem of being
stringent or machmir as far as Shemittah produce and I take it further to other foods – in that there is less food on the table for kids. As far as the bugs question – being machmir and not eating green leafy vegetables because there is an opinion that the classical way to clean does not help, means less greens . For families in Israel living below or close to the poverty line buying suits and hats , pe'ot is a big expense and impacts on food on the table.
All I asked is if Rabbis, educators, parents reflect on the price that
is being paid for being machmir. It could be that these standards of Kashrut
and dress are what keep people within the chareidi community and so if you are part of the community there is no compromise. There are certainly very good reasons for keeping higher standards of food and dress codes. But when we are aware of the price being paid, we can take steps to educate parents to provide more healthy food to kids. I was speaking to a Rav Ke'hilah here in Israel and he said the problem is more about parents spending on the wrong things , like the husband feeling he needs to show his neighbor that he also owns a car and leases a car even if there is no food on the table.
My intention was not to be critical but to raise the issue of meeting
the needs of kids. If we look at many issues – working or full time learning,
the army issue , secular learning –it is usually the children who will suffer
I found the Rav Ovadia video clip and the comments of his son
ReplyDeleteinteresting because they deal with the question of the problem of being
stringent or machmir as far as Shemittah produce and I take it further to other foods – in that there is less food on the table for kids. As far as the bugs question – being machmir and not eating green leafy vegetables because there is an opinion that the classical way to clean does not help, means less greens . For families in Israel living below or close to the poverty line buying suits and hats , pe'ot is a big expense and impacts on food on the table.
All I asked is if Rabbis, educators, parents reflect on the price that
is being paid for being machmir. It could be that these standards of Kashrut
and dress are what keep people within the chareidi community and so if you are part of the community there is no compromise. There are certainly very good reasons for keeping higher standards of food and dress codes. But when we are aware of the price being paid, we can take steps to educate parents to provide more healthy food to kids. I was speaking to a Rav Ke'hilah here in Israel and he said the problem is more about parents spending on the wrong things , like the husband feeling he needs to show his neighbor that he also owns a car and leases a car even if there is no food on the table.
My intention was not to be critical but to raise the issue of meeting
the needs of kids. If we look at many issues – working or full time learning,
the army issue , secular learning –it is usually the children who will suffer
Rav Ovadia was a legitimate posek. He ruled that the heter mechira is valid. As such, he didn't see it as a matter of leniency and stringency - in his ruling there was no room for stringency. The same applies to his ruling about exposed hair. There is no room for leniency, at all. In fact, according to Rav Ovdia's ruling even a wig will not suffice to cover a married woman's hair.
ReplyDeleteI don't see how any of the supposed related topics to the heter mechira have a cohesive presentation and argument attached to it.
It could be that these standards of Kashrut and dress are what keep people within the chareidi community..
Bingo! This reveals a lot about the rant, Mr. Katz. You are well aware that Modern Orthodoxy is in huge decline. (Will Modern Orthodoxy even exist in thirty years from now?) I hope you are well aware of the very sad reality that 52% of Modern Orthodox high school students drop Shabbos and Kosher within two years of their high school graduation. I hope you are well aware of the rate of those who enlist in the IDF who drop Shabbos and Kashrus - at minimum 23%, possibly over 50%! Truly unfortunate.
Let me ask you a question. Why didn't you write an article about leasing cars to keep up with neighbors and other sorts of luxurious spending? The only thing you found bothersome was if there was a legitimate religious reason to refrain from a certain behavior, or to have a certain dress code (which is not at all more expensive than any other dress code! A nice pair of dungarees cost almost what a suit costs). Is the underlying concern that they are passing on an appreciation of Torah and Mitzvos to their children?
I find it curious that you chose to direct a rant at a community who thankfully passes on a love for Judaism to their children, while at the same time you do NOT address an article to those who are struggling mightily to pass on a love and appreciation for Judaism to their children. Is the suffering of those children not worthy of concern and compassion? Do you not care about them?
Surely you don't believe that God created things that are intrinsically evil and eating them will damage your soul! The idea of sin is that when we don't follow halacha we are spiritually pushing ourselves further from God. Mitzvos aren't God trying to save us from the intrinsic evil of certain acts, they are God giving us the ability the utilise the world to get closer to Him. If you eat non kosher food, the food itself isn't damaging you. It is the fact you ate it; that you are going against halacha. That is why if you are dying you are allowed to eat it. The physical and spiritual world didn't change just for you - the halacha did. That is why you can have one rabbi who says A and one Rabbi who says B but both are correct.
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't know what you mean about ignorance of bugs in certain vegetables. Do all vegetables come from the same farm? the same country? the same continent? Are these bugs even not kosher- maybe they are born on the fruit and never leave them in which case enjoy the free protein.
You look at the vegetable. If there is a bug, you wash it off or don't eat it. What is so complicated. That is all the halacha demands of you. Ridiculous fear that you soul will be defiled if you unintentionally and unwillingly do something because of some intrinsic evil is not judaism.
משך חכמה דברים ו
ReplyDelete(יא) ובתים מלאים כל טוב. אפילו קדלי דחזירי הותר בשבע שכבשו וכו'. לכן מסיק (פסוק יב) "השמר לך", כי טבע הדברים האסורים שמטמטם את הלב, וכמו שכתוב (ויקרא יא, מג) "ונטמתם בם", ואפילו אם אוכלן בהיתר. ולכן יחלל שבת לחולה ולא יאכילנו נבילה.
שו"ע יורה דעה פא
הגה: ועיין באבן העזר סימן י"ג אם חדש העיבור עולה למנין. חלב כותית כחלב ישראל, ומ"מ לא יניקו תינוק מן הכותית, אם אפשר בישראלית, דחלב כותית מטמטם הלב (ר"נ פא"מ בשם הרשב"א). וכן לא תאכל המינקת, אפי' ישראלית, דברים האסורים (הגהות אשי"רי). וכן התינוק בעצמו, כי כל זה מזיק לו בזקנותו.
"Surely you don't believe that God created things that are intrinsically evil and eating them will damage your soul!"
ReplyDeleteYou continue to display your ignorance with each progressive post.
Timtum halev is a big discussion. Feel free to think it applies but I think it is ridiculous and disrespectful to say that things chazal have said are halachically permitted could still harm you. Even concerning bugs the food is permitted if the fruit is processed (bugs chopped) or if 10% has been checked but according to you as you are still eating or possibly eating the bugs your soul will still suffer.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to display an ignorance of any Jewish opinion that you don't like. I think you should try to broaden you horizons somewhat. Perhaps start with the rambam or abarbanel, perhaps rashi, the ben ish chai, the maharal, rabbeinu bachaye, Rav M Feinstein... And I am sure many others.
True ignorance is when you think you know everything but really you have a tiny blinkered view based on what you want to believe is true.
There are also many sources who understand timtum halev very differently. However it is understood, I have great difficulty accepting that something permitted in halacha could have bad ramifications. Consider the halcha if you find a piece of treif meat mixed up with 2 pieces of kosher meat the mechaber says you can eat all 3 which would seem to imply he doesn't hold with timtum halev. The nursing warning could perhaps be understood that a baby/young child might learn things from a non Jewish nursemaid which could damage his spirituality.
ReplyDelete@David what are your other sources which understand timtum halev to mean other than - that which is permitted halachically can still have a negative impact on you? As it stands it is a clear refutation of your categorical assertion. What do you mean by "I have great difficulty accepting that something permitted in halacha could have bad ramicfations". It seems that you are refusing to acknowledging that the facts are against your gut feeling. Not sure that your understanding of the Mechaber is correct since he is not addressing the issue of timtum haleve - but why are you ignoring the clear statement of the Rema and others which disagrees with your gut feeling.
ReplyDeleteYour rationale is an interesting attempt to salvage your views - but does a single recognized authority say such a rationalization for timtum? How can you ignore the wide variety of authorities that assert timtum halev and say that it is not a Jewish viewpoint?
start with the rambam or abarbanel, perhaps rashi, the ben ish chai, the maharal, rabbeinu bachaye, Rav M Feinstein.
ReplyDeleteWhat do they say about this discussion? Can you please quote them as well the the exact location of the quote? Thank you.
What is disrespectful to Chazal is to to take clear sources and twist them around every which way until they fit your personal beliefs and to then claim that you are quoting Chazal. I would have much more respect for you if you would not twist the truth but would instead state that you have difficulty understanding or accepting what Chazal have said regarding such and such. What you have done instead, and what you have consistently done on this website, is something that is known as Megaleh Panim Batorah Shelo Kehalacha.
ReplyDeleteSorry. It wasn't meant to be personal.
ReplyDeleteActually many charedi families are dirt poor and these chumras do keep food off the table.
Don't be ridiculous. You have no claim on the 'truth'. Everyone sees what he wants to see when he reads a source and you have no more right to your version than anyone else unless you prove it logically. Your problem is that you think there is only one understanding of the Torah and every source you see must by default support it. With evolution you just completely ignored that the blog owner posted that the concept could fit in with the torah, that many rishonim take beraishis figuratively because you are just not interested in any other view. With timtum halev you now attack me as if I am the one starting this discussion for the first time in history. This is an ancient disagreement and if only you would stop focusing on me and a bit more on the fact that there are things you don't know maybe you would get somewhere. Judaism is not as cut and dried as you think it is. There is no one true path everyone agrees on. I'd bet that if someone would tell you that the rambam believed that all the angel stories in the torah, such as with avraham and yaacov, were all dreams you would accuse him too of just twisting the words of the rambam. Open your eyes!
ReplyDeleteAre you implying that the mechaber wrote you can have all three pieces of meat, one which is 100% not kosher, even though he knew that it was bad for you?
ReplyDeleteWhy does he only give a warning concerning the milk?
Are you implying that the mechaber wrote you can have all three pieces of meat, one which is 100% not kosher, even though he knew that it was bad for you?
ReplyDeleteYou are correct. It may be eaten, although it does not necessarily remove the timtum halev.
( יחזקאל (ד, יד
ואומר אהה ד' אלהים, הנה נפשי לא מטומאה, ונבלה וטרפה לא אכלתי מנעורי ועד עתה, ולא בא בפי בשר פגול
גמרא (חולין מד ע"ב
ונבלה וטרפה לא אכלתי - שלא אכלתי בשר כוס כוס (בהמה מסוכנת שממהרים את השוחט לשוחטה קודם שתצא נשמתה).
ולא בא בפי בשר פגול -
שלא אכלתי מבהמה שהורה בה חכם
You don't really understand how things work in halacha and hashkafa. There are many "ancient" discussions which have long since been resolved for all practical purposes. If you just go off on your own and pick up some obscure opinion from somewhere, you are still off the deep end. If you decide to wear Rabenu Tam tefilin and not Rashi tefilin, you are off the deep end, even though Rabenu Tam held that you only have to wear his tefilin and not Rashi's. Judaism is not archaeology. And regarding the discussion on evolution, you were unable to logically display the veracity of even one of your points to the point that others in the discussion had to correct you. The same has happened here as well.
ReplyDeleteConcerning the milk issue : http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1525&st=&pgnum=269
ReplyDeleteRabeinu bachay
יא:מג ויקרא
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=38019&st=&pgnum=44
מהרל: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_50229_92.pdf
(not the ran apparently)
I find rashi on the relevant pesukim ambiguous hence the perhaps.
Min ha'stam the Rambam is ultra rationalist; he holds the reason for kashrus is it is practical for our health or to teach us moral lessons (moreh nevuchim chelek 3)
Concerning Rav M Feinstien i can't find a quote but a claim. You can choose to accept it or not. http://havolim.blogspot.co.il/2006/09/timtum-halev.html
(and another: "Similarly, a colleague of mine was told by R' D. Feinstein that if there is someone who can attest to the kashrus status of a restaurant (Eid echad) where questions were raised by some about standards, a person who is particularly concerned with timtum halev need not be strict. Even if in reality the food is unkosher, since there is eid echad saying it is kosher, the halacha is that the product is permitted and thereby there is no timtum halev.")
If you know the right people perhaps this can be confirmed otherwise feel free to ignore.
There are several long articles in hebrew discussing it
online if you are more interested. In short, there are different opinions and as i said, i find it very difficult to think that you could be punished for following halacha.
(I can't find the source but apparently) "There is a great Teshuva by Ben Ish Chai in Rev Pealim Sod Yesharim 4:6 who says that if it is an ones gamur, then there is no timtum halev, because the timtum comes from the bad spirit on the item caused by doing an issue, but if you eat it beheteir than the spirit is not there."
That breaking halacha causes damage to your soul I understand but following halcha?
@David the simple question is what do you do with the source I cited? They certainly are Jewish and yet they clearly accept timtum halev even when there is no intent to sin.
ReplyDeleteNone of these sources means anything, and only come from a superficial, cursory reading of the text. If you read a little above or a little below the lines where the "proofs" are found, you will see the truth. For example, the source that quoted the Maharal says right below that even if there is no Timtum Halev, they are still "Molid Mezeg Ra." Maybe David will explain to us the practical difference between Timtum Halev and Mezeg Ra. . . Vechahena vechahena. . .Just like it says, "Kol makom shepakru haminim tshuvasam betzidam."
ReplyDeleteI don't know enough to try to explain them. On the surface, respectfully, one side of this arguement must be wrong or we are not fully understanding what they are discussing. I was wrong to think that this wasn't a view in judaism but to be frank I think it should be filed with deep kabbalistic ideas that are beyond us and get back to concentrating on practical halacha.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest I don't see how this is relevant. Even the most machmir eat batel crushed insects; if they were truly worried about deep soul issues they would never eat another strawberry yogurt. Unless they think that the intrinsic evil is only is whole insects...
Well doesn't that explain things. Certain ideas are cherry picked from judaism and they become the new lore. I'm glad in your little mind you have resolved the great hashkafic issues but please don't even pretend you speak for other jews who can still think for themselves.
ReplyDeleteIt's almost a relief to hear you admit that things are all already resolved for you. That is why any discussion with you is just useless. From what I read Rav moshe Feinstein didn't hold with timtum halev but you would just ignore it because you know that the discussion has ended and you have the right answer. Have you ever thought of starting your own stream of judaism?
Concerning evolution, your logic was baseless and your arguments pointless. You of course know that the issue has been resolved the way you would like to understand it. For you there is only one true hashkafa in judaism and everyone who disagrees, no matter how great, is either ignorant or an apikores. I will not be talking about evolution with you again. Banging my head against a wall is getting painful.
Just think for one moment. Just maybe if you would learn a little bit more you might just find out that things are not as clear cut as you might think. Is it so difficult to accept that things are not actually resolved and you don't know the ultimate truth?
This article brings an interesting perspective. There are those such as the rif and the rashba who hold straight out there is no intrinsic 'badness' in foods and then even with those who say that you can get 'badness' from eating what is technically not kosher but permitted, you can differentiate between when there is a 'just a hetter' and when the status of the food is completely changed to being muttar. The latter implies that there is no intrinsic 'badness'. (The article contains a lot more.)
ReplyDeleteThis is clearly a known issue and I hope Nat will accept there are different opinions and this is not 'resolved'.
It brings a quote from Rav M Feinstein that would would seem to support that he holds with 'timtum' but based on the other blogs he could just be explaining the chasam sofers position. I don't know.
http://www.beinenu.com/sites/default/files/alonim/52_13_73.pdf
First of all, the entire article is about Timtum halev. Second of all, there is not a single halachic source that does not hold of the concept of being affected by food in one way or another. Just like the Maharal says, that sheratzim are "molid teva ra." May I remind you of your original comment:
ReplyDelete"Surely you don't believe that God created things that are intrinsically
evil and eating them will damage your soul! . . . If you eat non kosher food, the food itself
isn't damaging you."
You obviously were either ignorant of the concept completely, or you did not believe in it and believed it to be some sort of superstition. When you were called out on the carpet, you began researching the issue and backpedaling, but your original comment really reveals much more about you.
No. There are many mefarshim, as quoted, who say the problem is breaking the halacha, not intrinsic badness in the food as I said. Such as the rif and rashba from the article. I question that many of the others hold that there is intrinsic badness; some of their statements can be taken either way. According to the article all those who differentiate between batel and heter obviously don't hold with intrinsic badness.
ReplyDeleteIf you think not nursing from a non jew is due to intrinsic badness you can ask how you can even eat chickens or fish as they eat bugs. Even cow milk could be a problem as they don't check their food. And of course, any bataz food item that relies on the bugs being in pieces (fruit yoghurts?).
Unlike you i admit when I am wrong. I quote "I was wrong to think that this wasn't a view in judaism". I had indeed thought it was a superstition; i still do actually but i can acknowledge that it (apparently) has support with gedolim such as the ramban and chasam sofer. As i said, i will categorise their opinion under 'deep kabbalistic meaning' that i don't (yet) understand.
There is plenty of support for my view that following halacha can't harm you and that God didn't create intrinsic badness.
Do you have a reason why you would follow the opinions who say He did as opposed to the others? How do you rationalise mitzvot. Do you think that God created an imperfect world and was forced to create the mitzvot in order to save us from things. Or He intentionally corrupted things and then made the mitzvot to keep us safe? I think it more logical that God created a perfect world and then devised the mitzvot so we can use them to get close to Him using this world (this is how derech Hashem seems to explain it part in 1 section 4).
Maybe find the original maharal and we can see what he says.
ReplyDelete