Other items of note:
Rabbi Stern claims Aharon refuses to go to BD to arbitrate the matter: at 0:49 - although the Baltimore BD (the beis din to which the parties took the case) stated at the time that Friedman had done no wrong and it was for Epstein to bring the case to BD.
Rabbi Stern leads the crowd in jeering the Washington Vaad for not participating in the rally (2:15)
ORA claims that Rabbi Kamenetsky supported the rally (3:05), although the letter Rabbi Kametesky signed mentioning the rally did not actually endorse the rally http://getora.org/PDF/Letter%20from%20RSK-%20December%208.pdf
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The above post and video link must be a forgery. The entire rally could not possibly have taken place because it was prior to any finding against Friedman by any beis din, or a finding by any beis din that a get was appropriate. Even according to Rabbi Schachter (ORA's posek), pressure to give a get may be done only at the direction of a "legitimate" beis din: Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/Options_for_Helping_Agunot# (40:00). Even Rabbi Jeremy Stern himself has asserted that is forbidden under halacha to pressure a husband over a get before a beis din has ruled that the husband should give a get: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEi4SXT_fCA (58:00).
This post is riddled with errors but before we discuss those errors, can you let us know who wrote the Guest Post.
ReplyDeleteAre your comments below the dotted lines?
Based on all the stuff I've seen RSK sign over the years, who knows what to believe?
ReplyDeletewhat errors james? what difference does it make who wrote it? this is always your style to make remarks/allegations but never ever to substantiate your allegations?
ReplyDeletei hope he keeps her a fake agunah for the next 50 years until she moves back.
Authorship is important to establish perspective and bias.
DeleteThe final paragraph of the RSK letter states that he is aware of the protests and encourages everyone to do whatever they can to help convince Aharon to free Tamar. What else could that possibly mean?
Stan, your posts are filled with anger and hate. You hate a woman you dont even know. I view this entire situation as tragic. Anyone who wishes this continue for 50 years is not acting in defense of Torah.
"what errors james? what difference does it make who wrote it? this is always your style to make remarks/allegations but never ever to substantiate your allegations?"
ReplyDeleteKol haposel if there ever was one...
According to Google maps from NYC to Silver Spring is 4+ hours, from Philadelphia to Silver spring is 2+ hours. The poster says that rabbi Stern drives from NYC to Silver Spring. I hope the guest poster does not except the child to drive.
ReplyDeleteWhile two hours seems a lot, there are many kids who travel daily from Brooklyn to Lakewood and Monsey which takes 1+ hour.
It has been Tamar that repeatedly argued to the court that it is against Rivka's interests to travel from Tamar's house to Silver Spring.
DeleteAlso note that Rabbi Stern also complains about demonstrators having to travel from Philadelphia to Silver Spring.
What a load of rubbish !! The Jewish custom has always been that the children go to live with the mother , especially daughters. That is what's still done in lakewood with young children after a divorce , they have nothing more to do with their father's.
ReplyDeleteAlso the point is that no one wants to travel to protest a achzari rasha to give his wife a get , but to go spend time with your child SHOULD not be a burden , unless you are a sick person who when you do visit your child ignores them and reads text books the whole time.
Next point , a wife who separates from her sick cold hearted husband, is she forced to on her own, go rent an appt in a place that she knows no one , has no job and will be near her sick husband , or is it reasonable that in such a situation she would run to her mothers house ? .
Where do you see from the letter, that R SK dosnt support the rally ??!
I'm pretty sure that they made the rally on the advice of an Adom Gadol, also according to R Tam and almost all the Rishonim a rally dosnt cause a forced Get.
The post did not claim that Rabbi Kamenetsky opposed the rally. It noted that the letter ORA produced from Rabbi Kamenetsky mentioned that there was a rally. The letter from Rabbi Kamenetsky also encouraged people to convince Aharon to give a get.
DeleteWhat was missing from the letter was actual support or endorsement of the rally. The letter could have said "I support the rally" or "I endorse the rally" or I encourage people to attend the rally" - but Rabbi Kamenetsky's letter did not do so.
avf,
DeleteApparently, you did not even read the post you are commenting on. The post did not speak about Aharon's travel. The post concerned Rivka's travel.
avf,
DeleteYou have claimed to have inside knowledge of the case from people in Philadelphia. Your claim about Tamar being forced to "go rent an appt in a place that she knows no one" is completely false and betrays either your total lack of knowledge about the case or that you are deliberately lying - which would be consistent with ORA"s practices as well as that of Tamar's other suporters.
Tamar has a married sister who lives in SIlver Spring (and has lived there for about ten years) less than a mile from the apartment in which Tamar and Aharon lived.
avf - you obviously are unfamiliar with the facts of the case. Aharon offered to rent an apartment in the area for her if she would agree to live there for a year and after a year if she still wanted a get he would give it to her.
Deleteavf,
DeleteYou are totally wrong. In Jewish Law, children are the responsibility (and in custody) of the father, not the mother.
Larry Silverstein's reply to avf
Deletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2012/06/avf-why-tamar-does-not-have-get.html
"avf - you obviously are unfamiliar with the facts of the case. Aharon offered to rent an apartment in the area for her if she would agree to live there for a year and after a year if she still wanted a get he would give it to her."
DeleteHow could you possibly know that? Did he also offer to waive any further claims if she did move? If not, how can she trust that this isnt a legal maneuver to gain custody or jurisdiction?
What you are saying is that aharon is using the Get as leverage. That is exactly what many people find objectionable.
Since you claim to know the inside facts I am surprised that you didn't know this.
DeleteRick 2 your right the post did concern rivkas travels , but let's be real here aharons complaint has always been his traveling to pick her up or to spend time with her . For rivka to be DRIVEN is not a big deal for a young child with no demands on her time.
DeleteRick 3 true she has one married sister their -with a lot of children , but she didn't have any friends (which aharon didn't let her) or more relatives to make any network of support for such a difficult time.
R DE your saying that he offered to rent her an appt reminds me of the Gemara of a mazik offering to do the medical treatment for his victim . The Gemara I believe, calls it putting your head in a lions mouth. After living with a cold hearted CONTROLLING husband would she want him to rent her an appt ? .
Dovid having financial and halachik responsibility dosnt make you suited to bring the child up , common sense should tell you that.
"Since you claim to know the inside facts I am surprised that you didn't know this."
DeleteIs that sentence addressed to me? I dont claim to have inside facts. I never have. I question others who claim such knowledge.
avf,
Delete"go rent an appt in a place that she knows no one"
You just admitted that Tamar has a married sister there. In other words you admitted that you deliberately lied. Why should anyone else believe anything else you say.
It is Tamar that has repeatedly claimed that it is against the child's interests to travel back and forth between Pennsylvania and SIlver Spring. And regardless of whether Tamar actually believes that, she successfully convinced the court to impose a vicinity restriction on the child's time with Aharon, knowing that as a practical matter this vicinity restriction would result in significantly reducing the amount of time the child could spend with Aharon because he is Shomer Shabbos. This restriction was in place for more than two years, and was removed only over Tamar's vehement objections.
DeleteRick cause I forgot that she has one older sister who has a large family of her own, lives in that community I'm a deliberate liar? That is not enough of a support network to expect her to settle their on her own.
Deleteforgot or somebody just uncovered more of the misinformation you have been spreading? "Support network"? What is this camp? She is an adult who was old enough to get married and have a child. it is about time to grow up and take responsibilty. if she cant take of her child on her own then I think it would be fair to say that maybe she is unfit to have custody.
DeleteIF STERN REALLY SAID THAT "IT is forbidden under halacha to pressure a husband over a get before a beis din has ruled that the husband should give a get" WELL YOU WOULD NOT BELEIVE THIS - BUT TO THIS DAY NO BAIS DIN HAS RULED THAT AHARON SHOULD GIVE A GET. STERN ISN'T INTERTESTED IN HALACHA OR ANYTHING ORTHODOX FOR THAT MATER- JUST LOOK AT WHAT IS GOING ON IN MT. SAINI JEWISH CENTER. JUST LOOK AT HIS GATHERINGS - GIRLS SINGING IN PUBLIC - GIRLS NOT PROPERLY DRESSED - IF THAT IS WHAT HE IS INTERESTED IN WHY DOESN'T HE FIND A REFORM rabbi and get Tamar a GET. it should satisfy his requirements. if facty that is what Aharon should do - give his wife a reform or conservative get. stern style. that should satisfy everyone.
ReplyDeleteWrong. A BD of Rabbis Belsky and Kamenetsky ruled that she is an Agunah and that everyone must do what they can to help free her.
DeleteThere is no need to tell me that they are corrupt. I know your position but it is incorrect to state that no BD has ruled on this matter.
30 years plus of financial support makes me think of one passuk.
Deleteלא תטה משפט לא תכיר פנים ולא תקח שחד כי השחד יעור עיני חכמים ויסלף דברי צדיקם
your email yadmoshe@yahoo.com was hacked
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteBitch?!?
DeleteNasty, nasty, nasty, Stan.
I'm not going to respond to your SICK comments, but your comment " and there are opinions that if the father lives in a different town from the mother daughter goes to the mother. " is Counterintuitive to the point you are trying to make.
Deleteavf,
DeleteYour accusations and characterizations are no less "SICK" or over-the-top than Stan's
who r we kidding here? both sides are on the revenge mode. this won't be settled until that changes. Tamar is happy being the poster girl for agunahs - so why should be intterested in settling anything. her side told a would be mediator - we should talk - we are winning.
ReplyDeletewinning what?
three big loooosers - aharon - tamar - and the poor child.
she would be better off if both her parents gave her up for adoption and let her live a normal life.
(couldn't ora find a real agunah for their poster girl - not this moredes)
how is it that both sides are in the revenge mode if tamar is the one who is launching this huge chillul hashem? Going public with this has not helped her situation and if anything has made it worse. (In addition to all the loshon hora , motzei shem ra and sinas chinam she has created). Foolish woman that she is. If only she would wake up and realize that ora does not have her best interests in mind. Had she only been honest from day one and not jump from beis din to beis din, this entire matter would have been over.
ReplyDeleteFact is that aharon has not waged a vicious campaign against her speaks volumes of his true character. Most of the readers here would be fighting back with no end in sight.
They are rallying because he dosnt want to give a get , he is losing out because he is ruining his name and future the longer he drags this out.
DeleteHe hasn't waged a champaign because he knows he is a Rasha and the facts , opinions and mentshlichkeit are against him.
Your logic is flawed. If he is a rasha then he should have launched a campaign that would make a chillul hashem. The only one here who is making a chillul hashem is the one who has brought this to the public eye.
DeleteThis matter is one that should not be in the publics eye for a number of reasons.
1) it is not in the best interest of their child
2)it only creates more resentment between the two parties and complicates any chance of settling this.
3) the protests have had a reverse effect. She just lost out 4 years for nothing. The ora propaganda machine wanst you to believe they are making progress but in reality they are not only not closer to ending this but they have only complicated matters.
4) all the peole who come out to protest uknowingly are going to make serious problems for her. according to many poskim if she were to receive a get through coercion (protests) then her future offspring will be shunned due to their questionable status of mamzer.
5)It is quite obvious his family has no influence therefore protesting by them serves no purpose. Since they have already protested by them and it has accomplished nothing. Protesting by them is simply revenge from tamars family. Which one day they will have to give din vcheshbon for.
I said he knows he is wrong(" he knows he is a Rasha ") ,and everything is against him. So how can he gain anything with his own rally?
Delete1) I see, tamar signed an arbitration agreement that would not change their daughters place of residence yet she violated it..
Delete2) Then she walked out of the baltimore beis din and ran to the washington beis din and had ora harrass them but they told her to go back to baltimore. when she refused she ran to the herbrew national rabbi to issue a seruv immediately after only one hazmanah was sent.
3)then fought to have aharon lose custody of his child and instead got a 6pm visitation rights for him on fri. What kind of a rasha pushed for that? is she shomer shabbos? Why didnt her frum lawyer or herself tell the court that aharon is shomer shabbos? Her lawyer is a walking chillul hashem for advocating it and she is a chillul hashem for going along with it.
Later the 6PM visitaion right was removed by the court so the epsteins are now bringing him back to court again to try and take away custody.
Only a fool would give a get before all of these things are settled which clearly is not. From day one she has played dirty and continues to. so who really is the rasha here?
As the epsteins have shown the world they could care less for the well being of their daughter/grandaughter by launching a vicious campaign to slander and defame aharon.
The readers on this blog are not the brainwashed ora zombies and are able to think for themselves.
People like you who continue to spread lies and misinformation by conveniently "forgetting" or misleading facts as you have in previous posts will have to one day give a din vcheshbon.
avf
Deleteit is quite obvious that you think he is wrong and a rasha. How exactly have you determined that HE knows he is wrong and a rasha
Dear Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn,
ReplyDeleteI used to enjoy reading this blog, and felt that it offered important insights for Orthodox Jews in contemporary society. Unfortunately, it has recently become a platform for vicious postings and comments, which are usually more destructive than constructive. The tone of the discourse in the comments is frequently nauseating. I don't think that I am alone in this assessment.
Please reconsider what you want to accomplish here. Otherwise, you will end up destroying much of what you succeeded in building.
thank you for your feedback. The blog has entered new territory with issues that generate very strong feelings from opposing sides. I could simply block all strong language - but it is clear that this would cause the loss of many important comments.
DeleteThere is no question that your concerns are valid - and I share them. There are definitely some previously loyal readers who have stopped reading the blog - but there are also a diverse group of new readers - who have important things to say and many who feel they are getting significant information from each other that they would not get in a more peaceful environment.
"The tone of the discourse in the comments is frequently nauseating. I don't think that I am alone in this assessment."
DeleteNo you are not, Michael, whatsoever.
A real shame
Michael - vicious postings are in response to very vicious women out there who get the support of very thuggish rabbis.
ReplyDeletethese women are rodfim and instead of misquoting the rambam on forcing a get these purported rabbis should correctly quote the rambam on the halochos of rodfos.
Stan -
DeleteThank you for demonstrating my point.
Kol tuv,
Michael
Sorry Michael but unfortunately, sometimes ths truth hurts.
DeleteThis feels like a therapy session for men with anger management issues.
DeleteThe only people with anger management issues are the ones who launch relentless vicious public campaigns to defame and destroy someone with lies to make themselves look good.
Deleteavf's wild accusations as to Aharon's relationship with the child are contradicted even by the judge who ruled in Tamar's favor as to custody.
ReplyDeleteThe Court ruled in July 2009 that the child stay in Pennsylvania with Tamar because the child had been there for so long before the trial, not because of the parties' relative parenting skills.
The Court found that Aharon “is a caring father and actively participated in meeting the child’s daily needs prior to the parties’ separation” and that after the parties' separation and Aharon's moving out of the apartment at Tamar's demand, Aharon "spent time with [the child] on a daily basis until" Tamar unilaterally relocated the child to Pennsylvania.
“The court finds that both parties are fit and proper to have physical custody of the child and are genuinely concerned about the child’s health, safety, and well-being.”
“The court finds that both parties participated in caring for [the child] during the marriage. As a result of her unilateral decision to relocate to Pennsylvania with the child, [Tamar] has been the child’s primary caregiver since the parties separated in April, 2008. The court heard evidence that both parties are of solid moral character and have a reputation with their friends and neighbors for being loving and attentive parents.”
Accusation to the court of emotional abuse dosnt show to the court that he would be abusive to the child . At the time of the court case she was a baby I'm not sure how their is emotional abuse then , but at a visitation visit when she was 2 years old he takes her to Starbucks and spends the whole time reading a text book and not interacting with her is a form of emotional abuse/neglect.
Deleteavf,
Deleteyou claimed that your anonymous sources, which you acknowledged were Tamar's friends (and therefore obviously very impartial) saw Aharon interacting with the child before Tamar left, when the child was four months old.
It is one thing to claimed that Tamar should receive a get. It is quite another to be making defamatory allegations about Aharon's relationship with the child.
The first court trial was held when the child was oer a year and a half old, and the witnesses had ample opportunity to observe the child and Aharon, and the beis din and the judge believed the witnesses that testified that Aharon is an excellent parent, and not Tamar's family's who testified the opposite.
avf
ReplyDeleteYou are the one who made the outrageous claim that he was abusive to the child before Tamar left the marriage.
Again, why don't you cite your sources? As for the claim of him going to Starbucks, if that happened whose fault is that? Tamar was the one who fought for a restriction that he could not leave the vicinity of philadelphia with his child. In addition she turned the entire philidelphia community against him. Where do you expect him to go if she turned him into a Paria in the community.
ReplyDeletePlease keep entertaining us with your nonsense. You keep demonstrating to us why their daughter should not be in Tamars care anymore especially in Philadelphia.
Can I ask how many of you actually know either Tamar or Aharon? And if you dont, why are you commenting about her/him being evil or wrong, etc? fact is, YOU DONT KNOW. and even if you know them, do you honestly know the whole story? so whatever you are saying is motzei shem ra at the least. Is this what we have come to in the world?? Anybody been davening for mashiach lately?
ReplyDelete