Forward (hat tip Baruch Pelta)
One of America’s leading ultra-Orthodox groups has reaffirmed that its followers must consult a rabbi before going to law enforcement authorities with suspicions of sexual abuse committed by community members.
The admonitions, from speakers at a conference sponsored by Agudath Israel of America, came even though a recent rabbinic edict permits reporting such crimes to secular authorities. A New Jersey district attorney with many Orthodox constituents said the advice given at the conference could be a violation of state law, though that view wasn’t shared by the district attorney for Brooklyn, where many other Orthodox Jews live.
At the daylong “Halacha Conference for Professionals,” held in Brooklyn on May 15, speakers elaborated on a recent ruling by Rabbi Shalom Elyashiv, one of ultra-Orthodoxy’s foremost authorities on Jewish religious law, or Halacha. Elyashiv recently decreed that Jews with reasonable suspicions that a case of sexual abuse has occurred are permitted to go to secular law enforcement authorities, notwithstanding traditional religious prohibitions against mesirah, or informing on fellow Jews.
But at a panel discussion titled “Molestation Issues and Reporting: Current Halachic Thinking,” the panel’s leader, Rabbi Shlomo Gottesman, cautioned that Elyashiv never explained what constitutes “reasonable suspicion.” To establish this, Gottesman said, a person should consult a rabbi “who has experience in these issues” before going to secular authorities.
One of America’s leading ultra-Orthodox groups has reaffirmed that its followers must consult a rabbi before going to law enforcement authorities with suspicions of sexual abuse committed by community members.
The admonitions, from speakers at a conference sponsored by Agudath Israel of America, came even though a recent rabbinic edict permits reporting such crimes to secular authorities. A New Jersey district attorney with many Orthodox constituents said the advice given at the conference could be a violation of state law, though that view wasn’t shared by the district attorney for Brooklyn, where many other Orthodox Jews live.
At the daylong “Halacha Conference for Professionals,” held in Brooklyn on May 15, speakers elaborated on a recent ruling by Rabbi Shalom Elyashiv, one of ultra-Orthodoxy’s foremost authorities on Jewish religious law, or Halacha. Elyashiv recently decreed that Jews with reasonable suspicions that a case of sexual abuse has occurred are permitted to go to secular law enforcement authorities, notwithstanding traditional religious prohibitions against mesirah, or informing on fellow Jews.
But at a panel discussion titled “Molestation Issues and Reporting: Current Halachic Thinking,” the panel’s leader, Rabbi Shlomo Gottesman, cautioned that Elyashiv never explained what constitutes “reasonable suspicion.” To establish this, Gottesman said, a person should consult a rabbi “who has experience in these issues” before going to secular authorities.
This is a davar pashut, al pi halacha. I'm surprised anyone would be surprised that Agudah is simply stating halacha.
ReplyDeleteTaken at face value, this isn't about preventing a shanda fahr de goyim. Rather, it's an instance of misapplication of the concept of daas Torah.
ReplyDeleteErring on either side -- risking victims or ruining the life of an innocent is disasterous. Therefore, they are freeing the masses of taking responsibility by telling them to go to a pro. But rather than simply acknowledging who a professional is, in the Agudah worldview an advisor must be a bedavka a rav.
That keeping the rabbinate in charge of making even not-overtly-Jewish decisions is more important than getting the best advice possible is itself a problem.
-micha
The executive vice-president of Agudath Israel, and previous long-time general counsel, Rabbi Chaim Dovid Zwiebel, Esq., should resign from the New York Bar. He and Rabbi Shlomo Gottesman openly advised statutory mandated reporters who are also orthodox Jews, e.g., psychologists, and other therapists, to violate New York State law by not calling the child abuse hotline unless they first screen the case through one of their own rabbis who will make the determination as to whether the evidence is sufficient to warrant the call. Once you say that, you have violated your oath or affirmation, taken when you get admitted to the Bar, to uphold the law. Rabbi Zwiebel has every right to practice his extreme form of religion, but as a lawyer, not to give patently illegal advice. He has a hopeless conflict of interest between his religion, and his law license.
ReplyDeleteThe New York statute, Social Services Law section 413, does not have a "religious exemption clause" nor "conscious clause", that Aguda is, essentially, writing into the statute. Not Orthodox Jewish, Catholic, nor any religious "objectors" may evade their legal duties by pleading "freedom of religion". You can't, legally, say I'm not going to call the child abuse hotline because its mesira. According to the statute, if the mandated reporter has "reasonable suspicion" of child abuse or mistreatment, you call. You do not screen your suspicion through a third party, who has the power to say, don't call.
Those of us in the community also know that one of the reasons for the Aguda advice is not simply because they want to screen the evidence. They also want to know the family name of the accused sex abuser. They want to know if he is an Aguda member, so to speak. That fact too will be part of the mix in the Aguda rabbi's thinking about whether to call, or don't call.
Enough is enough. Some of the productive departments of Aguda should be spun off, like Invei Hagefen, and COPE, and then shut the doors. Will that happen? I doubt it. But people should say these things, out loud.
Micha,
ReplyDeleteIt's a matter of Psak Halacha, so obviously you need a Posek to decide. I'm not sure why you find it so complicating.
Englishman writes: This is a davar pashut, al pi halacha. I'm surprised anyone would be surprised that Agudah is simply stating halacha.
ReplyDeleteI would have said differently: The halakhah is a davar pashut, what makes the situation tricky is determining the metzi'us. The open question isn't a rabbi's, it's for people who work in social work, psychology and law enforcement. Experience in the field of communal leadership, even with YU's "supplementary rabbinics" courses in counseling, social work, and communal leadership, is simply not enough.
When one of my son's rabbeim was accused of beating students, the county sherrif sent someone in pretending to be there as some kind of school auditor, so that he could peek in at random times as he walked by the window in the door. The man was fired.
So, now he runs a remediation center. He tutors kids, where no one is in charge of him, and the setting is small and witness free. The rabbanim know how he lost his job and why. But ads for his new business were up in most of the shuls.
Because rabbis don't have a hasagah of the problem or how to cope with it. A degree in Yoreh Deiah doesn't teach you this.
There are cases where the halakhah is the open question. But they are a small minority.
-micha
Micha wrote: "The halakhah is a davar pashut, what makes the situation tricky is determining the metzi'us. The open question isn't a rabbi's, it's for people who work in social work, psychology and law enforcement."
ReplyDeleteReally? I beg to differ. A law enforcement officer is better to determine if a suspect committed abuse than a Rabbi is? I think not.
Even a social worker/psychologist cannot better determine if a given action taken is considered abusive in the eyes of halacha; perhaps, at most, he can determine if it is so in the eyes of the (secular) law only.
And what is even a stronger argument, is the need to first determine IF an allegation is true. False allegations are a fact. And a law enforcement officer does not place much emphasis on the truthfulness of an allegation by a child; they will react regardless.
"Considered abusive in the eyes of halakah" = damaging to the victim. Yes, this is something a psychologist knows better than a rav.
ReplyDeleteFrank, please see our host's book, and what role R' Sternbuch says a rav has in these cases. (Excerpt here.) Yes, there are times a rav is needed. But a rav really isn't equipped to know what harms someone, what doesn't, which stories are plausible, and what doesn't fit human nature, etc... R' Sternbuch suggests a rav as a way of getting an objective third party opinion, not because of the complexities of the din.
In particular, see the section RDE titled "Rejecting a rabbis psak when he says not to go to the police". It is not an issue of pesaq, and consequently the rav's advice is not binding. The decision is NOT in the hands of the rabbinate, leshitaso.
WADR to the Agudah, they are being dangerously wrong. I blamed their penchant for daas torah, for thinking every major decision is a rabbi's to make. I'm open to other suggestions.
But I am not open to the possibility that halakhah requires according our children less safety than R' Sternbuch's guidelines do.
-micha
"Frank" and the robotic krumme kops are coming across like good old "Roni".
ReplyDeleteSure, everyone should have rabbonim they consult about serious matters, but if one suffers burns or is confronted by an intruder, you dial for an ambulence and call the police ASAP! And sexual abuse needs both REFUAS HANEFESH (mental healing)and REFUASHAGUF (physical healing) and there is no difference between them as far as damage to people.
So listen up Frank and all the apologists, when it says in the Talumd: "HaBah LeHargecha Hashkem LeHorgo" – "If someone seeks to kill you, kill him first" (Sanhedrin 72A) IT DOES NOT SAY "CALL A RABBI FIRST"!
The reason for this is something like the following:
ReplyDelete"Orthodoxy is corrupt.
But we cannot let the genie out of the bottle, since it will harm orthodoxy.
So we can silence and try to bury any evidence of this corruption.
This will sort things out for us, and if there are any victims, well that is their lot in life, they have to accept."
is confronted by an intruder, you dial for an ambulence and call the police ASAP!...
ReplyDeleteit says in the Talumd: "HaBah LeHargecha Hashkem LeHorgo" – "If someone seeks to kill you, kill him first" (Sanhedrin 72A) IT DOES NOT SAY "CALL A RABBI FIRST"!
Sorry "Recipients", your knowledge is woefully lacking. The Torah specificially indicates that if you can disable to the attempted-killer, you must do so without killing him.
And regarding being confronted by an intruder or a potential killer, that is a case where you haven't a moment to ask and must react immediately. A 30-second delay is potentially fatal. In the abuse case being discussed, that is not applicable, and there is sufficient time to ask and make that 30 minute shaila call.
Rav Shternbuch also says to first ask a shaila. So what Agudah's Moetzei Gedolei HaTorah is saying, is the same thing Rav Shternbuch stated.
ReplyDeleteExcept that R' Sternbuch tells you to go to a rav to get an objective opinion. Not ask a she'eilah. Which is how RMS tells you to ignore an answer not go to the authorities if the reason is for anything but the charges don't appear to be real. He is pretty clear, even if this the third or fourth time we went around this point on-list. Our host even posted the relevant section in order to forestall further repetitions.
ReplyDeleteIOW, while the Agudah is giving authority to people who have their own vested interests in the health -- real and apparent -- of the community (which we hope a good rav could overcome, even if history has been spotty in this regard), R' Sternbuch merely tells you to go get a sounding board before you go run off. Very different things.
-micha
Micha: RMS never said to ignore the answer.
ReplyDeleteAnyone who wears a black hat and "dresses the part" has affiliated themselves with this group of so-called rabbis. And these rabbis enable molestation. Do the math.
ReplyDeleteFor that reason I will never wear a black hat.
Questions to "Baruch Spielberg" how about if you saw someone being sexually abusive (sexual abuse could be violent and victims are sometimes murdered, perhaps even later to shut them up) and the victim was crying from the assault, would you be 'allowed' to whip out your cell phone and call the cops right away or should you wait to call a posek first?
ReplyDeleteYou say "if you can disable to the attempted-killer, you must do so without killing him" but how is a five year old or fifteen year supposed to do that? How can a female of any age fight off the usually stronger abusive male offender?
WHERE IS YOUR SECHEL? Just how naive are you and how gullible and stupid do you think the world really is?
You are ignoring the essence and purpose of the basic human right to self-defense against ANY type of RODEF and evasively negating it with krumme lawyering and sacificing your brains and morals on the false altar of falshe frumkeit (fake religiosity) that harms victims and protects the abusers who are loving the way you and Aguda's Grotesqueman is shieldng the abusers while stripping the victims of the potections and civil rights that a free and democratic society grants them.
The problem is not asking the rabbi, that was normative practice for many years, the problem is that these days we have clowns as leaders and rabbis.
ReplyDeleteThere were times when the child molester when exposed had to leave the town, now it is the abused child and his family who have to leave the town.
There were time when someone like menuval Tropper would be delegated to the back of the the beis midrash, these days he had rabbis and various "gedolim" eating from his hands.
Yeah "Black hat Mafia", all the black-hatters are in a conspiracy to endanger our kids... You know, like our host the member of the Edah Chareidis...
ReplyDeleteSorry, you want a reason for abandoning the chareidi community or just look down on them with disdain, you're going to have to look elsewhere. Tarring the whole community with the sins of some is pretty much the definition of prejudice and bigotry.
-micha
Micha: Our host isn't a "member" of the Eidah HaChareidis. The Rov of the shul he davens in is.
ReplyDeleteDid you listen to his self-identification at the intro to the White Conference?
ReplyDeleteBut then, I'm again being silly enough to argue against people who deny points I already buttressed with quotes and don't even bother to stand behind their words -- "Recipients and Publicity", "Englishman", "Ben Torah", "Daas Yachid", "Black Hat Mafia"... These are people willing to become the grass roots who will fix our community???
-micha
I sit corrected. RDE identifies himself in that recording as chareidi (in general, not Edah Chareidis.
ReplyDeleteStill, he is one of the "black hatters" and also an outspoken critic of hiding the abuse problem. So my criticism of the mafioso stands despite my error in detail.
-micha
So if a child makes a false allegation of sexual abuse, should the police or DA be called?
ReplyDeleteIf you said yes, you're a rasha al pi kol hadeios. If you said no, how can you be 100% certain that a given allegation isn't false. You can't be.
"Frank said...So if a child makes a false allegation of sexual abuse, should the police or DA be called?"
ReplyDeleteRaP: "False"? What if it was your OWN kid? Yeah, yeah, keep up your shameful and callous defense of abusers on behalf of Aguda. Are you being paid to do this just as poster "Roni" was to defend the abusive ad immoral Tropper? Sure sounds like it.
Don't be stupid okay, obviously a one time isolated incident can be dealt with, and the alleged perpetrator could be warned and counseled to change his ways and maybe even do teshuva. BUT OBVIOUSY that is not the real case because their are serial sexual abusers of many people over many years, such as in the Mandrowitz, Kolko, Borger, Kranczer cases, and many, many more like this that were proteced by rabbinic power-brokers and who managed to escape justice. But don't let that bother you when you go to your daf yomi shiur.
"If you said yes, you're a rasha al pi kol hadeios."
RaP: You now sound like Pharaoh mamash, since according to your krumkeit and falshkeit, if you were Mosheh Rabbeinu and you defended an innocent powerless slave from abuse or protected some defenseless girls at a well from abuse, and Mosheh didn't boher asking Hashem for "pemission" to stop and fight the rodfim, it makes Mosheh into "a rasha al pi kol hadeios." ???
"If you said no, how can you be 100% certain that a given allegation isn't false. You can't be."
RaP: You sound like you are stuck in a hypotethical pilpul bubble and no clue about how the real world works in the 21st century. There is, among many ways to nail the bad guys: video surveilence; photos; audio recordings; DNA testing -- many rapists are caught and sent to prison based on semen drops on the bodies of victims or scene of the crime; interviews of suspected victims conducted by mental health experts who are trained and have methods of establishing if abuse is takng place at home or at school; dialing "911" by everyone who has a cell phone as a tool of self-defense against marauding rodfim on the loose that you and the Aguda would like to cover up for, as they did for Tropper until his own voice and video posted ONLINE brought him down.
RaP:
ReplyDeleteNo need to downplay false allegations. They happen a given percentage of all cases. There was even a recent court case of a heimish guy who it turned out that a frum kid was payed to lie about claiming false abuse.
To be more clear about the critical distinction.
ReplyDeleteThe very dangerous stance the Agudah recently took is that the issue of dealing with abusers belongs to the rabbinate. They will turn to psychological and law enforcement professionals as they need to in cases they can't handle themselves.
The guidelines RDE wrote up with R' Sternbuch's feedback is that the issue of dealing with abusers belongs to psychological and law enforcement professionals. The role of the rabbinate is to help the person gain objectivity in determining whether suspicions are real enough to act upon -- and are to be ignored when they are not objective themselves or suggest that the accusations are real, but don't require handling by professionals.
That gap is quite huge, and shouldn't be wallpapered over with the observation that both are telling you to see a rabbi first.
-micha
"superman said...No need to downplay false allegations."
ReplyDeleteRaP: Not downplaying anything. Problem is that Aguda-type rabbis not only "downplay" but also suppress and hide known and verified (even to them) of known abuse and molesters. And often sometimes it is rabbis they know about and they choose to turn a blind eye for their own reasons.
"They happen a given percentage of all cases."
RaP: Okay, so? Everything has exceptions, that's life, but "botul beshishim" ("nullified in 60 parts") or "botul berov" ("nullified by a majority") does not apply to a repeated rodef who violates various types of gillui arayos ("sexual immorality") hurting many innocent lives -- literally getting away with murder because to sexually violate others is tantamount to violation, destruction and negation of another's life. Gillui arayos, shefichus damim, avod zara ("sexual immorality, murder, idol worship") are all equally severe sins which Jews are forbidden to violate even if it costs them their lives and for which the Bais HaMikdosh was destroyed by Hashem.
"There was even a recent court case of a heimish guy who it turned out that a frum kid was payed to lie about claiming false abuse."
RaP: Yes that's called perjury, or bribery, or blackmail or false testimony and it can happen, but it does not mean it's a "heter" ("authorization") to let every last rodef, abuser ad lecher off the hook just because he is makpid on chalav yisroel, wears a black hat and his wife wears a sheitel because by now way too many such characters have over-run the Haredi world and it's high time they were put on noticed and put out of busiess wihout you or the Aguda finding ways and excuses to protect them that will only backfire.
Frank said...
ReplyDeleteSo if a child makes a false allegation of sexual abuse, should the police or DA be called?
If you said yes, you're a rasha al pi kol hadeios. If you said no, how can you be 100% certain that a given allegation isn't false. You can't be.
===============
Frank your comment is nonsense.
If you view the allegation as credible or even possibly credible you have an obligation to protect that child and that means calling the police or social services(especially if you are a mandated reporter). If there is time because the child is not in immediate danger than call a rabbi who is experienced and has access to mental health professionals.
The possibility that the allegations is false is not a reason to ignore the allegations - whether it is a child or adult.
If you view the allegation as ... even possibly credible you have an obligation to protect that child and that means calling the police or social services
ReplyDelete"Even POSSIBLY credible" allows you to be moser?? Without CERTAINTY? That is a crooked, twisted, krumme view. And not the way of the Torah or the behavior of Torah Jews.
If there is time because the child is not in immediate danger than call a rabbi who is experienced and has access to mental health professionals.
Ahh, at least you're not totally off you're rocker. In more than 99% of the cases there is no IMMEDIATE danger -- meaning you have the couple of hours needed to consult a rabbi.
So apparently our difference, albeit major, is only applicable to the less than 1% of cases where there is an immediate danger. In those cases one should immediately remove the child from any access by the suspect.
Frank,
ReplyDeleteSafeiq piquach nefesh docheh kol haTorah kulah. And "mesirah" doesn't include turning over a potential dangerous criminal to a generally reliable law enforcement system.
Something is very wrong when you can pretend the danger to someone whose reputation is unfairly ruined is the only concern in the case of doubt. What about the victims you won't help because your standard of proof before acting is absurdly high?
-micha
Something is very wrong you can pretend the danger to someone whose reputation is unfairly ruined is the only concern in the case of doubt
ReplyDeleteAre you meshuga? REPUTATION? That is the least of the concern. An INNOCENT man can be JAILED because of false allegations. It has happened and will happen again. Don't be a party to it.
You're STILL ignoring the danger to victims.
ReplyDeleteAny policy will involve deciding what to do in case of doubt. Some people might be brought to trial and even sent to jail despite being innocent. Although that's a second step removed; we're talking about alerting the police, not declaring guilt. The legal system does have fewer false findings that accurate determinations. Some victims will be further victimized, will feel betrayed by their community, and will end up far worse off because of errors in the other direction.
You STILL pretend that the unfairly accused is our only concern. And that is very very wrong.
I might be meshugeh, if you insist. But I'm not too callous to see the permanent damage done to children at home, talmidim in yeshiva, kids in sleepaway camp, etc...
-micha
Any policy will involve deciding what to do in case of doubt. Some people might be brought to trial and even sent to jail despite being innocent.
ReplyDeleteListen Micha. I have a Torah. the Torah is interpreted by Rabbis. The Torah says that you cannot punish/convict "in case of doubt".
Are you a Torah Jew or an American Jew. Make no mistake, it's either or. Torah Law and American Law clash.
Frank,
ReplyDeleteI have a Torah, the Torah that is interpreted by Rabbis.
I repeat what I wrote earlier, "I am not open to the possibility that halakhah requires according our children less safety than R' Sternbuch's guidelines do." That's the Torah, as interpreted by rabbis.
You may not punish or convict in case of doubt, but you don't need to decide if the allegation is true before turning someone over to those who are more equipped to make that determination.
AND, safeiq piquach nefesh applies to severe psychiatric trauma no less than physical machalos. Being victimized and then left abandoned by the community is a risk to observance and in fact a sufficient risk of rendering the victim a shoteh and not even a baal chiyuv altogether.
So even if I bought this business of equating turning over someone dangerous to mesirah, piquach nefesh docheh!
You have yet to even acknowledge that there is risk to the victims by your position. You aren't justifying choosing the risk to the accused innocent in light of "sheiv ve'al ta'aseh", or comparing risks, or some other specious argument. You make no argument at all and entirely ignore the problem. Why is that?
Last, don't give me this "Torah Jew or American Jew" garbage. Being ehrlach is a shared value in both cultures. Make no mistake, you -- in your SEVERE ignorance of halakhah -- are misrepresenting both Torah and derekh eretz.
-micha
Frank your comments indicate a disturbing ignorance of the basic sources. Unfortunately you have insisted in repeatedly propounding views - which go against the Torah - with great arrogance. I have just posted some of these Torah sources at the link below. Hopefully you will take the trouble to read them and accept them. I have only published your nasty and misguided comments because unfortunately there are a significant number of members of our community who share this ignorance.
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2011/06/reporting-even-suspected-abuser-to.html
I've responded in the new thread DT links above to - where you can make all further communications.
ReplyDeleteRe: "AND, safeiq piquach nefesh applies to severe psychiatric trauma no less than physical machalos. Being victimized and then left abandoned by the community is a risk to observance and in fact a sufficient risk of rendering the victim a shoteh and not even a baal chiyuv altogether.
So even if I bought this business of equating turning over someone dangerous to mesirah, piquach nefesh docheh!"
Putting an INNOCENT person in JAIL who false abuse charges have been leveled against, IS PEKUACH NEFESH. So indeed, that is another reason you brought, that YOU MAY NOT DO SO under the laws of the Torah HaKedosha.
Frank,
ReplyDeleteYou still are not acknowledging the risk to victims and potential future victims. Not even long enough to tell me why you dismiss it as less relevant.
You are also still conflating calling the police with throwing the guy in jail. Yes, the legal system is far from perfect, and the state social welfare system even further. But still, they get things right far more often than not. When you and a more objective party you consulted have a plausible suspicion about someone, telling the police about that suspicion is not guaranteeing the person goes to jail. Even if he's guilty, nevermind if he's innocent.
In what sense is jail piquach nefesh?
Psychiatric health is, in a literal sense. E.g. the Satmar Rav z"l told a raped young girl's parents that she was permitted to get an abortion. His reasoning was that the trauma of giving birth to her rapist's child was likely to cause psychological damage to the extent that it's piquach nefesh. Does turning someone over to a lawful country's enforcement system require a greater need than does abortion?
In short:
1- Why are you only looking at the risk of being overly judgmental and not that of being overly lenient?
2- The risk of accusing the innocent is reduced by the fact that you are handing the problem over to investigators, not the penal system.
3- The risk of not accusing the guilty will cause piquach nefesh by standards already used lemaaseh.
There is therefore a strong reason to justify and obligate someone to check their fears with a third party, and if they appear to be reasonable, to turn to the state to determine their reality and what to do about them.
-micha
Micha asks: In what sense is jail piquach nefesh?
ReplyDeleteIn the same sense that you asserted above that abuse is pekuach nefesh.
The risk of accusing the innocent is reduced by the fact that you are handing the problem over to investigators, not the penal system.
These career prosecutors seeking a conviction (whether the accused is innocent or not) to boost their reelection bids is well known and discussed. Searh Lexis-Nexis for numerous such cases, including many where the conviction was later overturned after the innocent was falsely convicted.
The gentiles have no compunctions in jailing the innocent.
And please stop downplaying the terrible crime of putting an innocent man accused of abuse in jail, whether pre-trial or post.
"Yeah "Black hat Mafia", all the black-hatters are in a conspiracy to endanger our kids... You know, like our host the member of the Edah Chareidis...
ReplyDeleteSorry, you want a reason for abandoning the chareidi community or just look down on them with disdain, you're going to have to look elsewhere. Tarring the whole community with the sins of some is pretty much the definition of prejudice and bigotry.
"
Micha, you did not read my comment. Please read it again. It does not say what you are reacting to.
I said specifically THIS GROUP OF RABBIS enables molestation. By wearing a black hat a person associates himself with this group of rabbis. Therefore, I personally will never do so, and I think others need to rethink their allegiances (NOT that all the people wearing such hats are evil or any other garbage you said in your reply).