Dr. Marc Shapiro wrote: in the last footnote
8 There is another theory as to why the sectarian hasidic world in particular has had so many cases of covering up and defending child sex abusers. It is that they simply do not regard these people as so terrible. The evidence for this appears obvious, in that in case of after case we see that they continue to allow sex abusers to teach and refuse to turn them over to the authorities and warn the parent body. Had they caught the rebbe eating at McDonald’s, you can be sure he would have been fired, but not so when it comes to fooling around with kids. The question is why do they have this outlook, and how come they don’t regard child sex abusers as so terrible? Here is a possible answer (which a wise person suggested). Look at where these societies get their information about human nature, the information that they regard as authentic and true. It does not come from modern psychology, but from Torah sources and folk beliefs. If you look only at traditional rabbinic literature, you won’t conclude that child sex abuse is as terrible as modern society views it. Yes, it is a sin and the person who commits it must repent as he must do with all sins, but there is nothing in the traditional literature that speaks to the great trauma suffered by the victim. How do we know about this trauma? Only from modern psychology and the testimony of the victims. Yet this type of evidence does not have much significance in the insular hasidic world (unless it is your own child who has been abused). Certainly modern psychology, which is often attacked by figures in that community, is not given much credence, especially not when they are confronted with an issur of mesirah. This theory makes a lot of sense to me and I am curious to hear what others have to say.
maybe im just unlearned, but where can one get the idea from torah sources that child sex abuse isnt as terrible as society views it? iirc, isnt the punishment for mishkav zachar is the same as the punishment for sleeping with a nida?
ReplyDeleteWhy give any credence to Marc Shapiro -- who in this very comment puts
ReplyDelete"Torah sources" and "folk beliefs" in the same category.
I have another theory, Rabbinic literature is full with detail discussion of sex with children, there are machlolokos of what is the age range of children (three year and one day, nine years and one day) , some discussion are going to detail such as the hymen status of three years old girl. While some apologists says that it is part of child marriage which was common those days this disturbing source from the Rambam has nothing to with marriage:
ReplyDeleteגוי הבא על בת ישראל--אם אשת איש היא, נהרג עליה; ואם פנויה היא, אינו נהרג. [י] אבל ישראל שבא על הגויה--בין קטנה בת שלוש שנים ויום אחד בין גדולה, בין פנויה בין אשת איש, ואפילו היה קטן בן תשע שנים ויום אחד--כיון שבא על הגויה בזדון, הרי זו נהרגת: מפני שבאת לישראל תקלה על ידיה, כבהמה. ודבר זה מפורש בתורה, שנאמר "הן הנה היו לבני ישראל . . . וכל אישה, יודעת איש למשכב זכר--הרוגו" (במדבר לא,טז-יז).
So from studying those sources one can see that having sex with children is not so bad as eating non kosher food
isnt the punishment for mishkav zachar is the same as the punishment for sleeping with a nida?
ReplyDeleteNo, Generally the punishmnet for particlar homesexual acts is stoning and the punishment for nida is usually cares.
"iirc, isnt the punishment for mishkav zachar is the same as the punishment for sleeping with a nida?"
ReplyDeleteMishkav Zochor is a death penalty crime that the court executes.
I agree with Dr. Shapiro.
ReplyDeleteBTW, he does not equate Torah sources with Folk beliefs. He says Torah sources AND folk beliefs, they are two separate things.
In the Chassidic community "folk beliefs" do replace scientific knowledge. Secular reading materials are banned as is the internet. Information regarding health and medical issues is disseminated via rumor and like the "telephone game" most of it comes out completely differently from what went in.
Prof. Shapiro is making a good point which highlights just how people and many contemporary rabbonim are either conniving or am haaratzish.
ReplyDeleteGedolei Torah have explained in teshuvos that child molestation is as devastating to the victims as retzicha. The answer for everything is in the Torah and these teshuvos are mefalpel to prove just that.
Those who have an agenda to cover up or who are ignorant will wave all this away as the shmutz of modern psychology when they are disregarding how the Rambam and others outline how to find answers in the Torah.
Aaron S. misses the point.
ReplyDeleteProf. Shapiro is not equating Torah with folk belief. He only points out that ignorant people blur the lines between them.
Views have fluctuated on what constitutes a child and what constitutes sexual abuse for centuries - various forms of what would now be considered horrific were institutionalized is some cultures as an aspect of "mentoring", an initiation into manhood! Even in america these concepts and terms have been variously understood;
ReplyDeletehttp://www.amazon.com/Moral-Panic-Changing-Concepts-Molester/dp/0300073879
An amorphous, pansexual, non-specific "drive to lust" (in biology called "exhuberance"), is even defensible within 'modern' psychology and biology, and thus ariot can be dimissable as MERELY behaving like "animals" - as tragic as the idea may seem in our day and place considering the victims;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sexual_behaviour
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals
It is all the more painful when halachic is restricted to a legal positivism that plays into definitions, i.e, if there is no issur, there is no issur and that's the Daas Torah! - as in the alleged decision of a recent Gadol that would "downgrade" many many forms of assault (p4; "index3.html");
http://nymag.com/news/features/17010/
The good news is that, if this is true, the insular worlds will catch up as soon as they/we become aware of the dangers in a very real way.
ReplyDeleteAs Dr. Shapiro writes, when it is your own child, chas veshalom, you come to recognize the danger and the harm. Being a private issue, the word doesn't spread so fast - but it will.
For example, there was a tragic death of an infant left alone in a car. This first-hand brought the issue to the forefront of Chareidi society in a way that Television and Surgeon General warnings could not.
On a similar note, I believe that if Talk show hosts were left wingers and TV news anchors were conservative, we would have far more Obama supporting Chareidim.
Our worldview is based on what we are exposed to.
(and yes, it is a flaw in an insular society)
I am somewhat confused by Mark Shapiro's comments. Confining ourselves to same sex intercourse when, at what age, do acts of pederasty become homosexual acts on the chassidic view? Why is pederasty not sooo terrible at 12 but a toaivah at 13?
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure why Dr Shapiro singles out Hasidic insularities in particular. Non-Hasidic 'chareidism' seems to deal with these matters similarly.
ReplyDeletePSOL said...
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure why Dr Shapiro singles out Hasidic insularities in particular. Non-Hasidic 'chareidism' seems to deal with these matters similarly.
Shapiro finds Hasidim to be an easier, and more fun, punching bag.
ej said...
I am somewhat confused by Mark Shapiro's comments. Confining ourselves to same sex intercourse when, at what age, do acts of pederasty become homosexual acts on the chassidic view? Why is pederasty not sooo terrible at 12 but a toaivah at 13?
Mishkav Zochar is Mishkav Zochar regardless if the adult is doing with a minor (>13) or another adult (>13). The penalty is death either way (for any adults involved.)
So pedophilia that involves sexual intercourse between 2 males, is halachicly a death penalty crime [for the adult(s)] according to anyones book.
>So pedophilia that involves sexual intercourse between 2 males, is halachicly a death penalty crime
ReplyDeleteFor both? If it's a Jewish male and a Goya toddler, only she gets the death penalty according to Rambam (Issurei Biah 12:10);
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/960660/jewish/Chapter-Twelve.htm
Mishkav Zochar is Mishkav Zochar regardless if the adult is doing with a minor (>13) or another adult (>13). The penalty is death either way (for any adults involved.)
ReplyDeleteBut if the boy is less than 13 (according to some) the adult is not punished or whatever! and this is the issue !
"But if the boy is less than 13 (according to some) the adult is not punished or whatever! and this is the issue !"
ReplyDeleteIncorrect. Whatever gave you that idea. He is executed.
Pierre:
ReplyDeleteRambam (Issurei Biah 12:10) is not talking about homosexula pedophilia. (It is talking about heterosexual relations.)
Dave:
ReplyDeleteWhen you wrote "Mishkav Zochar is Mishkav Zochar regardless if the adult is doing with a minor (>13) or another adult (>13). The penalty is death either way (for any adults involved.)"
Was that supposed to say "regardless if the adult is doing with a minor (<13) or another adult (>13)." ?
It seems you put the > symbol twice and in that case makes your statement quite confusing. If you meant both < and > as the same punishment, then I understand what you wrote there. Please clarify.
If the boy is less than 9, the adult is not executed
ReplyDeleteהבא על הזכור, או הביא זכור עליו--כיון שהערה--אם היו שניהם גדולים, נסקלים: שנאמר "ואת זכר--לא תשכב, משכבי אישה" (ויקרא יח,כב), בין שהיה בועל או נבעל. ואם היה קטן בן תשע שנים ויום אחד ומעלה--זה שבא עליו או הביאו על עצמו, נסקל; והקטן, פטור. ואם היה הזכור בן תשע או פחות, שניהן פטורין
dave; sexual assault on children in not only same-sex behavior - but typically, we do consider sex between adult males and toddlers to be sexual assault.
ReplyDeletePierre
R' Eidensohn,
ReplyDeleteSome in this comment thread have suggested that the issur deoraisa of mishkav zachar doesn't kick in unless both individuals involved in the act are 13 years old or above. Is this true? And, if so, according to whom (i.e. are there machlokos about this and, if so, how do the positions of various Rishonim/Acharonim fall out)? My gut feeling tells me that this can't be the case, but I also know that my gut feeling counts for pretty much nothing when it comes to halachic reality. I would very much appreciate it if you could shed light on the matter.
Chizki,
ReplyDeleteHomosexual relations is a death penalty crime even if it is between one adult (over 13) and a minor (under 13). The minor is exempt from execution (even it were voluntary), but the adult who sinned with the minor is executed whether it was consensual or against the minors will.
Student V,
Yes, that was a typo, and your correction is indeed what I intended to write. [with a minor (<13)]
It seems to me we are juggling three concepts,mishkav zachor with halachic minors vs. halachic grownups, pederasty and pedophilia. Pedophilia does not require intercourse,and does not differentiate between below 9 or 13and above 9 or 13, whereas mishkav zachor does.
ReplyDeleteWith all the talk in the last few years it is amazing that no one has taken the time to define and explain these concepts and exactly what we are trying to prevent and why.
"הבא על הזכור, או הביא זכור עליו--כיון שהערה--אם היו שניהם גדולים, נסקלים: שנאמר "ואת זכר--לא תשכב, משכבי אישה" (ויקרא יח,כב), בין שהיה בועל או נבעל. ואם היה קטן בן תשע שנים ויום אחד ומעלה--זה שבא עליו או הביאו על עצמו, נסקל; והקטן, פטור. ואם היה הזכור בן תשע או פחות, שניהן פטורין"
ReplyDeletethank you, dmx.
this confirms Marc Shapiro's theory.
From a Torah point of view, it is better to molest/rape little boys than to have a consensual homosexual relationship with a person over bar mitzwah age...
...and I suppose that we learn from this that is impossible to denounce rapists or molestors, because the victim is considered as guilty as the perpetrator (death penalty for both if both are over 13)
ReplyDeleteרמב"ם איסורי ביאה א
ReplyDeleteהלכה יד
הבא על הזכר או הביא זכר עליו כיון שהערה אם היו שניהם גדולים נסקלים שנאמר ואת זכר לא תשכב בין שהיה בועל או נבעל, ואם היה קטן בן ט' שנים ויום אחד ומעלה זה שבא עליו או הביאו על עצמו נסקל והקטן פטור, ואם היה הזכר בן ט' או פחות שניהן פטורין וראוי לבית דין להכות הגדול מכת מרדות לפי ששכב עם זכר ואע"פ שהוא פחות מבן ט'.
this confirms Marc Shapiro's theory.
ReplyDeleteFrom a Torah point of view, it is better to molest/rape little boys than to have a consensual homosexual relationship with a person over bar mitzwah age...
------------
Actually Dr. Shapiro was referring to the psychological seriousness not the halachic seriousness.
The Rambam says that there is no punishment according to the Torah but the act is still prohibited and is punished by flogging rather than by execution. However the flogging can in fact cause death - so it is not a free pass.
TYD said...
ReplyDelete...and I suppose that we learn from this that is impossible to denounce rapists or molestors, because the victim is considered as guilty as the perpetrator (death penalty for both if both are over 13)
===================
Actually the opposite is learned. Both are denounced and punished if it consensual act and both are over 13.
The fact that it is a consenting act between two adults (e.g., over 13) does change the way it is viewed in halacha. But it is is still a crime and is to be stopped and punished.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty
ReplyDeleteDT said: "However the flogging can in fact cause death"
ReplyDeleteHalacha regarding flogging is that a doctor has to certify the convictee can medically tolerate (i.e. survive) the number of flogs sentenced. Otherwise, the Bais Din is required to reduce (or reschedule perhaps) the flogging.
TYD said...
ReplyDelete...and I suppose that we learn from this that is impossible to denounce rapists or molestors, because the victim is considered as guilty as the perpetrator (death penalty for both if both are over 13)
This is only if the person is over 13 and it was consensual. In which case, it is 2 consenting adults. And the penalty for both is death.
If either one party was not consensual, OR was a minor you most certainly do denounce the rapist. And execute the homosexual molester it it were an illicit relationship that falls in that category.
Dr Shapiro's premise that it applied to the sectarian HASIDIC world is misplaced.
ReplyDeleteOver here, it was alleged that a senior figure in the Lakewood Kollel and his wife were well aware of allegations of sexual misdeeds by Malka Leifer
http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/leifer_malka.html
and that they allegedly swept this issue under the carpet.
This issue surely transcends Hasidim. It is about the cloistered.
"If either one party was not consensual, OR was a minor you most certainly do denounce the rapist. And execute the homosexual molester it it were an illicit relationship that falls in that category."
ReplyDeleteI suppose there is a problem with the burden of proof.
How do you prove you did not consent?
In earlier posts, a poster calling himself "Mekubal" wrote that sexual contact is considered consensual by jewish law if the victim does not struggle until they are killed.
If this is true, jewish law does not at all take into consideration the "psychological ascendent" and manipulative power of sexual predators. Many acts of molestation and even rape take place without violence.
So if a young man says he was raped by another man
- either proof is not sufficient to condemn anyone (who saw it?)
-or the perpetrator can say it was consensual and the victim risks an execution.
So the victim has no interest in speaking up.
About being "cloistered"? No, its about being a JEW.
ReplyDelete"How do you prove you did not consent?"
ReplyDeleteIf the victim protested (i.e. screamed) when he was attacked, Jewish law considers him a victim.
"In earlier posts, a poster calling himself "Mekubal" wrote that sexual contact is considered consensual by jewish law if the victim does not struggle until they are killed."
The do not have to struggled to death. They have to scream in protest. And since there needs to be witnesses to convict, the witnesses will know if the victim protested.
not every victim of rape is able to scream in protest.
ReplyDeleteMany times
1) young children do not even understand what it is all about.
2) rape victims might be paralysed, a bit like the hare in front of the snake.
So if they do not scream, nor struggle, is it taken, according to halacha that there was consent?
If it is assumed the victim consented (because no screaming/struggling took place) and it is case of sexual relationship that is punishable by death (man (other than husband) on married woman, father on daughter, stepfather on stepdaughter, brother on sister, male on male (both over 13)), does this mean that the victim will be executed as well as the perpetrator?????
1) Young children aren't adults, and hence not responsible.
ReplyDelete2) There needs to be 2 witnesses who provided warning beforehand. So it will be obvious to the court if it was consensual or not.
MIA - A child is automatically exempt. And there are eyewitnesses in any event.
ReplyDeletea boy over 13 is not considered a child any more.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet he might be victim of pedophilia.
You are conflating Jewish law with secular law.
ReplyDeleteWhy is a willing, consenting, participating 17 year old -- a week before his 18th birthday -- engaged in a sexual act "a victim of pedophilia", while if the same person did the same act a week later it is perfectly legal? [If the age of consent is different, adjust my point accordingly.] Because some drunken State legislators legislated as such before they headed out to the bar across the street from the halls of the legislature?
Not only is there no punishment for child sex abuse, a father can sell his daughter. If the abuse is done without the father's consent, the only punishment is that the man must pay the father for the monetary loss caused to the father (since loss of virginity means she'll fetch a lower price.
ReplyDeleteMishkav zachar is homosexuality, not pedophilia.
the abuser is a danger and therefore it is permitted to call the police to stop the harm - even if it results in imprisonment
ReplyDelete