Recipients and Publicity comment to "Shavei Israel V - Proselytization as kiruv":
Russia's Chabad Chief Rabbinate Regards Subbotniks as Gentiles Requiring Giyur L'Chumra. Chabad Stance Opposes Shavei Israel's Lenient Attitude To Subbotniks That Wants Bring Them To Israel. Israeli Chief Rabbinate Caught In Middle.
The English language MISHPACHA magazine of 1.7.09 (11 Teves 5769) (Pages 12-13) presented a key article about: "Are the Subbotniks Full-Fledged Jews" that ran very much AGAINST the type of pro-Shavei Israel press-release self-congratulatory PR hype that was published in The Jewish Press, as posted above in The Jewish Press story of Friday, December 26, 2008 (Page 36): "Russia’s Subbotnik Jews Get a Rabbi":
ARE THE SUBBOTNIKS FULL-FLEDGED JEWS?
An estimated 15,000 Subbotniks living in southern Russia and Siberia wish to return to the traditions of their ancestors and emigrate to Israel. Are they, in fact, Jews? Are they eligible for aliyah under the Law of Return? These questions are currently up before both the Israeli Supreme Court and the Chief Rabbinate. [...]
Michael Freund, chairman of Shavei Yisrael organization, says that this part of the group is descended from geirei tzedek who converted in full accordance with halachah before the communist revolution. Many of them even learned in various yeshivos in Eastern Europe and were considered full-fledged Jews. Yet in recent years government clerks have labeled them with the same name as Shabbos-observing Christian group called “Subbotniks,” who are indeed non-Jews who never converted. According to Freund, no rabbinical or halachic authority negates the Judaism of the original group. [...]
Two years ago a delegation representing Israeli’s chief rabbi and president of the Chief rabbinical Court, Rav Shlomo Amar, traveled to Russia to verify the matter. Rabbi Tzion Boaron, who was sent to examine the issue, says that in the village of Illinka, the Subbotniks are indeed geirei tzedek who underwent conversion, and they should be brought to Eretz Yisrael. However, Rav Amar ruled, on being presented with extensive evidence, that the Subbotniks who live in Vysoky are not halachic Jews; they are not registered as Jews, and the answers they gave as to why they are not registered were not sufficient. They have no mikveh and when the members of the delegation asked to meet with the shochet, they gave him evasive excuses.[...]
The Chief Rabbinate adds that “there is no realistic way to single out specific families and definitively determine if they are the direct (daughter after daughter) descendants of converts.
The Rabbinate issued a halachic ruling which states that individual Subbotnikim who could prove their Judaism cannot be used to render a general ruling for the entire group. “It is known that at the end of the 1920s, a Chassidic rabbi named Chaim Liberman arrived in the village of Illinka, in the district of Voronezh, and established a slaughterhouse and the production of tzitzis. He provided kosher meat and talissos throughout Russia during the communist regime,” the beis din ruling states. “But it is understood that he came there because there was a whole community that was willing to help him and had an interest in having a certified rabbi. The rabbi engaged in activities that put his life at risk, and it is understood that he would accept any assistance that could help facilitate his work, but to use that as a proof that the people of Illinka were halachically Jewish is not conclusive. The fact that in the 1930s the villagers tried to register themselves as Jews in their Soviet passports does not alter anything halachically, and anyone who is considered to be the child of a Subbotnik mother must bring proof of Judaism or undergo a stringency conversion.”[...]
My understanding is that a gerut l'chumra does not involve extensive questioning by a beit din, but rather is a simple haftat dam brit (or full brit if necessary) and immersion. Does this reflect reality on the ground, or does declaring the Subbotniks need gerut l'chumra effectively mean they are the same as a goy with respect to what must be done before they are converted?
ReplyDeleteLarry,
ReplyDeleteGerut L'Chumra means that there must(in addtion to what you mentioned) be Kabbalat mitzvot. Which means that there must be instruction in those areas in short. It is a process that can take some time. It all really depends on the individual(according at least to my Rabbonim).
Chabad is running schools in the Soviet Union under the idea that "the Rebbe said that there are millions of Goyim in Russia who are really Jewish".
ReplyDeleteThousands of Goyim are in Chabad schools in the FSU.
They get nice meals, holiday parties and a better life than their neighbors.
The schools get paid thousands of dollars by the Jewish Agency for each child it educates, a win win for sure!!
The Gentiles get a better life, the shluchim get a business, Israel gets the population and the only losers are Klal Yisrael facing an intermarriage problem that could never be imagined.
DT- I BEG you to verify this and it should not be difficult. Chabad is performing marriages between Jews and Hispanic Goyim they have ruled are "Anusim", between Jews and Russian Goyim, between Jews and Asian goyim (any Asian who wants to marry a Jew is Chiang Min), between Jews and Polish Goyim (hidden children). Any Jew who wants to marry a Gentile need only go to Chabad. They will do a "ger l'chumra" and marry them.
Another thing that could never be imagined in the "Jewish State" are the pogroms, shul desecretions and neo Nazism that these Goyim bring with them.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subbotniks
ReplyDeleteWikipaedia (in French) writes that there are different tendencies within the subbotniks.
Some of them are nearer to christianism, but there is a sub-group called "gery" who converted to judaism and seems to live according to judaism.
So the question "are subbotniks jewish" seems to be too general: some aren't some are, perhaps.
@mekubal:
ReplyDeleteI did not find the quote where you say that your Rabbi or so addresses you (or addressed you once) with "Harav hamekubal".
Either I looked in the wrong place, or the text was edited after I read it.
Shoshi, Why is what Mekubal puts on his own blog relevant to his posts on this blog??
ReplyDeleteYou can read what he says and either take it or leave it based upon its own merits.
You can learn from people with whom you disagree.
Ben Zoma says:
Who is wise?
The one who learns from every person. Talmud - Avot 4:1)
Menachem, please really share with us your true feelings about Chabad.
ReplyDeleteIs it pure jealousy or just hatred?
Why are Michael Freund and Shavei Yisrael tolerated by Orthodox Rabbis?
ReplyDeleteIt's clear that their agenda has nothing to do with promoting Halacha, and since his organization gets much of their funding from fundamental Christian organizations, it's pretty obvious that Shavei Yisrael is not a Jewish organization at all.
Why are they tolerated?
New article from a jpost.com blog:
ReplyDelete"Orthodox Opinions: Rethinking 'recognized conversions'
Tuesday Feb 03, 2009
Posted by Rabbi Seth (Shaul) Farber
Israel's immigration policy needs some serious rethinking, particularly if critical decisions are left in the hands of clerks.
While the law of return allows Jews - both those born Jewish and those who converted - to immigrate to Israel and receive citizenship automatically, it does not specify the threshold for proving one's Jewishness. While much has been written about this (see for example the NY Times article from last March), there is little question that the State has to rely on recognized Jewish communities abroad for Jewishness certification.
In recent months, I have encountered a new problem - staggering in its implications. It seems that no one is quite sure how to define the term "recognized Jewish community." I know this sounds like a joke, but it isn't.
While I would argue that Jews for Jesus communities or messianic Jewish communities shouldn't go recognized be the State for purposes of aliyah, a Supreme Court decision from 1988 clearly recognizes - for purposes of aliyah - the legitimacy of the Orthodox, Conservation and Reform Movement. Letters of Jewishness and conversions performed by these movements go recognized by the State.
What has happened in recent months that worries me is the definition of "an Orthodox community." ITIM has recently gotten hold of a letter sent by the "Population, Immigration and Border Authority," of the Interior Ministry that states clearly that an Orthodox conversion performed overseas was not acceptable to the State for purposes of aliyah because the chief rabbi [of Israel] did not recognize the conversion as legitimate. Essentially, the State's civil authorities have decided to sublimate the definition of the "recognized" communities - at least in the Orthodox sphere - to the Chief Rabbi.
Now, I don't believe that Conservative and Reform converts need worry - for the moment - that they are not eligible for immigration under the Law of Return. Ironically, it is Orthodox converts, who have cause to worry. In recent years, the chief rabbinate has pared down to a handful the rabbis in North America who can perform conversions which they will certify. Is it conceivable that the State of Israel relies on the major Reform and Conservative rabbinical bodies to determine "recognized" communities, but that when it comes to the Orthodox, the chief rabbi is the final arbiter? Apparently so!
When ITIM turned to the Ministry of Interior for clarification regarding its policies toward immigrants, we received a letter stating that "we relate to conversions performed overseas by each of the denominations with identical criterion."
That letter is written by the same office that wrote that the Chief Rabbi didn't recognize the legitimacy of an Orthodox rabbinical court.
I think that the State has to begin to review who it trusts and whom it doesn't trust in the diaspora. If Israelis to be the State of the Jews, then our understanding of the Jewish people has to be wider than the definition provided by a bunch of clerks.
[See Comments:]
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About this blog
Orthodox Opinions
Rabbi Seth (Shaul) Farber received his Ph.D. from the Hebrew University and his rabbinic ordination from Yeshiva University. He is the founder of ITIM: The Jewish Life Information Center and rabbi of Kehillat Netivot in Ra'anana where he lives with his wife, Michelle, and their five children. Rabbi Farber is the author of An American Orthodox Dreamer: Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik and Boston's Maimonides School (UPNE: 2004).
Rabbi Tzvi Hersh Weinreb, the executive vice president of the Orthodox Union, previously held the post of Orthodox Opinions blogger and BlogCentral would like to thank him for all his contributions."
Shoshi,
ReplyDeleteHonestly if you want to continue this discussion, do so in the original thread. Thank you for the traffic on my blog and taking the time to read it. Beyond that I will not respond to anymore of your accusations about my blog in this thread.
Here is a Klal U'Prat. Does the Rabbi who performed the conversions have anything to do with? As far as their acceptability later? (That's the Klal)
ReplyDeleteThe Prat is(and I am going to leave details of who, and where out so as not to cause undue embarassment to the individual) I know an individul who, the best way to put it is, thought he converted L'Chumra, here in Israel(this has nothing to do with Drukhman). He went to a Chareidi/Chassidic Rav(not Chabad) learned in Yeshivot for about 3yrs, did Kabbalat Mitzvot, Brit(the whole deal) and Teveila.
Since his conversion he has sat in Yeshivot that all fall somewhere in the Chareidi spectrum. I know him personally because one of those Yeshivot was one of mine as well at the same time. So after several years of Yeshiva study, he wanted to start making Shidduch. When, as is the custom in Israel, the masgiach of the Yeshiva he is currently in, and the Rabbanim check into his Jewishness, they find a slight problem.
The problem is that while the Rav that did his conversion once was relied upon, since he has had several rather spectactular moral failings(for instance making Shidduch with his current(5th) wife before starting the Get process with the last.
So they take him to R' Eisenstein. I was there as an eid and to support someone I have come to consider a freind. In the end after hearing everything everyone, Roshei Yeshivot, and other eidim, as well as the persom himself had to say. R' Eisenstein said, "I have no doubt that you feel Jewish, nor that you should be Jewish, however we have to figure out where to go from here." In the end he gave no definite psak, and said he would have to ask a Shaila of R' Eliashiv before he could write his final psak. Howevver he encouraged the person to "start the process" either with his own B"D, or Rabbinute.
So in the meanwhile we have someone who "should be Jewish" but is for all intents and purposes not. Despite being Chareidi.
To bring this back to the Subbotniks. How does something like this reflect upon them? Does the Rav that did their "conversions" matter. Do the circumstances under which they converted matter? Does their Kabbalat mitzvot and current observance matter?
Oh as far as Shavei is concerned... I know for a fact that one of their researchers who "finds" these communities is a missionary. And he was one of the main people working on the Kaifeng deal.
ReplyDeleteSo it appears that Chabad got one right.
"Ironically, it is Orthodox converts, who have cause to worry. In recent years, the chief rabbinate has pared down to a handful the rabbis in North America who can perform conversions which they will certify"
ReplyDeleteOh has this become a huge nightmare in shidduchim in the US!!!
The girl has parents who want to make the wedding in Israel because they want the marriage recognized by the Rabbinute, they want the extended family to be able to come and it is much less expensive to make the wedding in Israel.
The boy has been all through yeshiva and has also learned in Israel and while in college. He is a trained Hazzan and Baal Koreh.
His Rabbis and references gave the highest recommendations. The girls parents did not even think to check public records to find out that his maternal grandmother's parents are buried in a Catholic cemetery before they went out.
The couple wishes to become engaged and that is when it is revealed that the boy's maternal grandmother was not Jewish and his mother was "converted" when she married his father. They never even told the boy or his father's family.
The boy's mother's conversion is not recognized in Israel; this is verified by a local Dayyan.
What would you do??? What would you tell your daughter to do???
A Chabad Rabbi is willing to marry them for sure, and perhaps there are other Orthodox Rabbis in the US who would also marry them.
Would you break it off because the marriage would not be recognized in Israel and the boy is not Jewish according to the Rabbinute???
I will tell you the end of the story, because it is very heartbreaking but also inspiring. The girl and her parents never got to make this heartbreaking decision because the boy made it for them.
The boy told the girl the she was the best girl he could ever dream of but that he loved her so much that he could not marry her and ruin her life because the Rabbis she respects do not consider him Jewish.
He now lives in a community where there are no Jews and dates non Jewish women.
The girl is still single and looking for her zivug. It has been three years. I know because I am her mother.
Mother of the not bride...
ReplyDelete1) Who did the boy's mother's conversion? Who are the Rabbis? Why didn't the boy boy seek affirmation of Jewishness from a Beis Din that Rabbinute recognizes?
2) Why did the boy not simply convert? Given his status of having been through Yeshivot, a father who is Jewish(which means there is a mitzvah to convert the boy) and who believed his wife, the boys mother was genuinely Jewish when they married, then it should be an over and done with process. I can think of at least two Batei Din in America that I have worked with and who are recognized by Rabbinute, that, if everything you said is true, this wouldn't even take a week, or at least it wouldn't have.
3)Why not marry in the US, but a trusted Orthodox Rav that accepted his conversion? Any Orthodox marriage performed in the US is recognized by Rabbinute.
Mekubal -- your assertion in 2) is incorrect. According to Rabbi Sterbuch's declaration of last year, it is forbidden to convert the boy because he's the product of an intermarriage. There is a mitzvah to NOT convert him!
ReplyDeleteyour assertion in 3) is also incorrect. I personally know of couples who were married Orthodox in the US whose marriages were subsequently NOT accepted by the Rabbinate because one or both of the people involved had undergone conversions that were unacceptable to the Rabbinate.
The boy cannot and should not convert, especially to permit the intermarriage.
It's simply a tragic story and hopefully he will find a nice gentile woman who will make him happy and hopefully the girl will find a nice Jewish boy and make a large beautiful Jewish family!
1) Who did the boy's mother's conversion?
ReplyDeleteChabad,that is where they have been davening for many years. The mother is not Shomer Shabbos, doesn't keep kosher and does not dress modestly and neither do the sisters. The sister's Bas Mitsvah in that Chabad shul included her speaking from the Bima on Shabbos and then giving a musical performance to a mixed crowd at a melave malka.
The Chabad Rabbis gave glowing recommendations as did his yeshiva Rabbis and other Rabbis in the community. He has been a Baal Koreh in several local shuls for many years and all of the Rabbis spoke very highly of him.
2). Why didn't the boy boy seek affirmation of Jewishness from a Beis Din that Rabbinute recognizes?
He could not get it. His mother obviously does not keep (her office is open Saturdays and she dresses immodestly).
3). Why did the boy not simply convert?
A conversion (his) for the purpose of marrying a Jew (my daughter) would not be recognized in Israel.
4). at least two Batei Din in America
We were told that only the RCA/BDA Batei Din comply with the Gerus Protocols recognized by the Rabbinut. And that they would not convert a Gentile to marry a Jew.
I can only guess that upon finding out that he is not Jewish and not obligated to observe the mitzvos, he was relieved. He promptly started dating Asian women which I guess is something he wished to do all along.
5. Why not marry in the US, but a trusted Orthodox Rav that accepted his conversion?
Our daughter did her own research and discovered that he would not be a Jew in Israel and that the marriage would not be recognized in Israel.
"Any Orthodox marriage performed in the US is recognized by Rabbinute."
If one of the couple could not put "Jewish" on his teudot, how could the marriage be recognized. The Rabbinute does not even accept ketubbas as a testimony of Jewish status for the teudot.
My daughter said that she felt as though marrying him would not be any different than any other goy. She believed that she would lose her place in Olam Haba for doing so and would be a zonah for being with him.
Although Chabad would have married them, (I assume since they hired him to lain) she feels that if he is not a Jew in Israel, he is just a goy, no different than any other goy.
She is a real yiras shamayim. B"H
I do not know what I would have done in her place, maybe gone to Chabad.
She says that she believes that because he does not have a Jewish neshama, that if she tried to "cheat" on G-d, and marry him anyway, she would be the one who would suffer, being married to a Golem. He is a bit of a Golem which his neighbors blamed on being raised by maids, but really, if you have emunah, it is because he does not have a Yiddishe neshoma.
It has been very hard and very painful for our family. I hope that no other Jewish families will go through what we did.
Do you checking ahead of time and don't trust anyone else to do it. Get documentation of the mother's Jewish status BEFORE they go out. If the family will not provide the proper documentation, then run from the shiddach, anyone who does not have something to hide will just give papers. Civil records (birth certificates, death certificates etc) will be good enough, the Rabbinute accepts these but not ketubos. Everyone has civil papers.
"I can only guess that upon finding out that he is not Jewish and not obligated to observe the mitzvos, he was relieved. He promptly started dating Asian women which I guess is something he wished to do all along."
ReplyDeleteI think this is the most telling aspect of the story. In this sort of situation, where the grandmother had some kind of Orthodox conversion, and the guy was shomer torah u'mitzvos, he'll fall under at least a safek status, and the protective fence of forbidding conversion for the sake of marriage will not apply. Basically, if the guy sincerely wanted to continue being a Jew, he would have been able to make it work, his family history notwithstanding. Certainly the RCA/BDA would have OK'd it, even in their new conversion framework. In this case, it seems like the guy simply was not sufficiently interested or motivated. Unfortunately, I've met too many Jews, even (or perhaps especially) FFB's who at times feel stuck and burdened by their immutable Jewish status and would like nothing more than to be told that it was all a mistake and they're not really Jewish. (On the other hand - being called a Golem by his fretting future mother-in-law may not have helped the matter.)
Sruli -
I follow the conversion news quite closely, and I haven't heard of any pronoucements about a blanket issur on converting children of intermarriage. My understanding of R' Shternbuch's shitta was that children of intermarriage should not be *mekareved*, that they should not be encourage to convert, and should be treated like a regular non-Jew in this respect. It doesn't seem to me that R' Shternbuch would forbid the conversion of such a child, assuming the child is a good, honest candidate, who realizes he's not Jewish (yet). R' Eidensohn - perhaps you can clarify.
A conversion (his) for the purpose of marrying a Jew (my daughter) would not be recognized in Israel.
ReplyDeleteThis is not necessarily true. If it is his only reason to convert then yes there could be problems. However, I asked this specific question from R' N. Eisenstein, about a couple who I knew that were essentially doing just this. He said if the B"D and its conversion process does their job properly it should not be a problem. His own B"D here sees it all the time. If done through a proper B"D, and in truth considering that he lived his entire life as a Jew and went to Yeshivot and what not, the burden of proof that is is only doing for marriage is on them. As opposed to him needing to prove it is for another reason.
If one of the couple could not put "Jewish" on his teudot, how could the marriage be recognized. The Rabbinute does not even accept ketubbas as a testimony of Jewish status for the teudot.
This simply is not true. First Israel has not put "Jewish" on a Teudat Zehut since 1995 or 96. What you now find in that field is, "******". I know this specifically becuase when I was a new Oleh I was confronted by someone who did not know this fact. I contacted my Shliach from the Jewish Agency(who also only had stars despite being a son in law to R' Lau, former Chief Rabbi of Israel), also my own Rosh Yeshiva who lost his Teudat Zehut, showed me his, which only had stars.
Second Rabbinute does recognize Orthodox Ketubot signed by Orthodox Rabbis as Eidim as proof of Jewishness. It always has and always will.
I proved Jewishness enough to take the Semicha Exams from Rabbinut and recieve Semicha from Rabbinute on nothing more than my own Ketubah, which at the time was a Chabad Ketubah. They have to believe you are Jewish in order to become a Rabbi.
The Chabad Rabbis gave glowing recommendations as did his yeshiva Rabbis and other Rabbis in the community. If this is true, then Rabbinute would have accepted that as proof of Judaism. To prove Judaism for the purposes of marriage one can either present a letter from a Rav that Rabbinute recognizes as being an Orthodox Rav(all Lubavitch Rabbanim fit this bill, and any Rosh Yeshiva definitely will), or bring two Kosher witnesses to their B"D, that will vouch for knowing you and you being Jewish. They make no Yichut inquiries beyond that for being a stam Jew. If you want to have them recognize you as a Kohen, then that is a whole different story... then you have to prove yichut(I underwent that investigation, they will do it for you if you don't mind waiting 6 weeks).
Civil records (birth certificates, death certificates etc) will be good enough, the Rabbinute accepts these but not ketubos. Everyone has civil papers.
To be clear, civil papers prove nothing. Ketubot, Gittin, and letters from Rabbanim are the only thing that will prove that you Jewish. Civil papers from the US, make no mention of Jewishness what so ever. Even those from oher countries are at best enough to prove you are a Jewish descendant for the sake of Aliyah, but to prove certainty of Jewishness for Rabbinute.
1) Who did the boy's mother's conversion?
Chabad,that is where they have been davening for many years. The mother is not Shomer Shabbos, doesn't keep kosher and does not dress modestly and neither do the sisters. The sister's Bas Mitsvah in that Chabad shul included her speaking from the Bima on Shabbos and then giving a musical performance to a mixed crowd at a melave malka.
I cannot speak for what goes on in every Chabad house since the Rebbe's passing. However, it should be noted that the Rebbe explicity banned his people from doing conversions. During the lifetime of the Rebbe Chabad had only one B"D, and that was in Crown Heights. Having spent considerable time(years really) in Chabad and its Yeshivot, until only 10yrs ago, I can tell you that up until 10yrs ago official policy within Chabad was still not to make converts. At best they would pass someone off to a local B"D that they trusted. One such B"D was the B"D of Philadelpia under R' Dov Brisman(who has Semicha from R' Shach Z"L and R' Halberstam from Eidit Chareidit), which last I checked, was recognized by Rabbinut, and until 10yrs ago, the only B"D Chabad worked with North of Baltimore and South of Brooklyn.
Also I have never heard of Chabad doing a Bat Mitzvah... also condemned by the Rebbe.
As far as Malve Malka, I have never seen a Chabad anywhere do Seudah Shlishit or Melave Malka, except with the exception of when a Rebbe's Yahrtzeit falls on Shabbat, or Motzei Pesach. Aside from those austere occaisions the Rebbeim(not just the last one) discouraged(which in Chabad terms means politely commanded) their followers not to do them.
As far as a girl speaking from a Bima on Shabbat at a Chabad house... honestly I find that simply impossible to believe. I spent many years with Chabad, and though I may have several issues with their theology and some of the things they do(as you will find noted in other discussions on this blog) I was an insider, and I know what simply cannot be. This simply cannot be.
2). Why didn't the boy boy seek affirmation of Jewishness from a Beis Din that Rabbinute recognizes?
He could not get it. His mother obviously does not keep (her office is open Saturdays and she dresses immodestly).
Though R' Tropper may do it, by and large conversions are not reversed for later rejecting of the mitzvot. If you are saying that there was not Kabbalat mitzvot, then she was never Jewish. It has nothing to do with Rabbinut, it has to do with going before a shady B"D, that while some Lubavitchers may work with now in the absence of a Rebbe to control things. I have a very are time seeing occuring any time before his death, and even for a few years after.
Your answers bring only more questions:
1) How did the father of the boy not know his wife's status before they were married?
2) Is this a family that in reality attends a Conservative Shul sometimes and a Chabad shul at others?
3)Why did not any of of the boy's Rabbanim or Roshei Yeshivot write him a letter for Rabbinut saying that he was Jewish?
Sruli said...
ReplyDeleteMekubal -- your assertion in 2) is incorrect. According to Rabbi Sterbuch's declaration of last year, it is forbidden to convert the boy because he's the product of an intermarriage. There is a mitzvah to NOT convert him!
your assertion in 3) is also incorrect. I personally know of couples who were married Orthodox in the US whose marriages were subsequently NOT accepted by the Rabbinate because one or both of the people involved had undergone conversions that were unacceptable to the Rabbinate.
===================================
All due respect to R' Sterbuch, however I have heard that exact psak Din from the lips of R' Eliashiv, R' Eisenstein, R' O. Yosef, R' Y. Yosef, R' Dov Brisman, and R' Yitzchok Goldshtein, as well as my own Rabbanim in a Dayanut program here in Israel.
I have the greatest respect for Rabbanim of Eidus Chareidis and in fact have Semicah from R' Azran Z"L and R' Halberstein Z"L. However, I also know their politics, and that at times they can be a little extreme. I have no doubt that R' Sterbuch made that psak, however given everything that I have learned and heard from other great Rabbanim, I don't think it is Stam Halacha.
If one of the people on a Ketubah has themselves undergone a conversion then yes, Rabbinute may reject that conversion, and subsequently that marriage. However, it is easy to tell in such a case, the Ketubah says, Ploni Ben/Bat Avraham Avinu. If it simply says Ploni Ben Ploni and the Eidim are recognized by them as Orthodox Rabbanim, then they will not question.
For various reasons they cannot worry about every Jew who may have had a shady conversion in their Yichus somewhere. There was certain B"D I know of that tried that here in Israel only a few years back, and wound up possuling several Gedolim before they put a stop to it... Whoops.
Rabbinute does not examine Yichus on a whole unless someone want to be recognized as a Kohen or Levi. That is why various Chareidi B"D have their own Yichus courts.
Mekubal wrote:
ReplyDeleteSruli -
I follow the conversion news quite closely, and I haven't heard of any pronoucements about a blanket issur on converting children of intermarriage. My understanding of R' Shternbuch's shitta was that children of intermarriage should not be *mekareved*, that they should not be encourage to convert, and should be treated like a regular non-Jew in this respect. It doesn't seem to me that R' Shternbuch would forbid the conversion of such a child, assuming the child is a good, honest candidate, who realizes he's not Jewish (yet). R' Eidensohn - perhaps you can clarify.
=================
Rav Sternbuch has a written teshuva in the new volume 5 simonn 322. This is talking about after they were married and it might be different if they haven't been married yet.
"The present case is one in which a ben Torah married a baalas teshuva and afterwards it was determined that the mother of the kallah is a giyorus who converted and never observed mitzvos. It is logical that she did not intend to keep mitzvos when she was converted either. Poskim write that therefore the gerus never took place and therefore the mother is still a non-Jew. That means the daughter is also a non-Jew. So even though she is a baalas teshuva and tzadeikus and married a ben Torah. Nevertheless the din of the Torah is that she is a non-Jew and her husband needs to separate from her. She should go to the mikveh in private before a beis din and tovel for the sake of geirus. The husband needs to marry her a second time with eidim according to the din. This is only if the mother never kept mitzvos. But if the mother started to keep mitzvos afterwards I don't have an answer. Nevertheless there should still be tevila l'chumra...However if the conversion was done by a beis din which is not concerned to check whether there will be observance of mitzvos then we are witnesses that this is not a beis din that we have to worry about and there was no geirus in the first place...
"where the grandmother had some kind of Orthodox conversion,"
ReplyDeleteThe grandmother did not have any conversion, obviously or the mother would have produced it.
We never could find out if the mother had any sort of conversion, but I would say it does not matter because she works in her office on Shabbos.
"the Rebbe explicity banned his people from doing conversions. "
Chabad Rabbis schlep together an ad hoc Beis Din of Rabbis for conversions.
Who has not seen or heard of this story???
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/6943/edition_id/131/format/html/displaystory.html
Chabad converts are not Jewish in Israel.
"1) How did the father of the boy not know his wife's status before they were married?"
Obviously he did know and lied about it. The father's mother and sister in law made the shidduch and CLEARLY had no idea.
"2) Is this a family that in reality attends a Conservative Shul sometimes and a Chabad shul at others?"
Yes, they also attend a Conservative shul.
The daughter performing music in the Chabad shul really happened, I have a video.
3)Why did not any of of the boy's Rabbanim or Roshei Yeshivot write him a letter for Rabbinut saying that he was Jewish?"
Once it was revealed that his mother's mother is not Jewish and the mother could not or would not produce an Orthodox conversion, how could anyone write a letter saying he was Jewish???
We assumed that there was a conversion, how could this boy and his siblings go all through Orthodox yeshiva day school, become a Bar Mitzvah in an Orthodox shul, lain in several other shuls, be a regular Chazzan at Chabad, learn in Israel etc etc etc and none of these Rabbis even asked about his mother's family????
Why shouldn't we have assumed he was Jewish??
A boy whose maternal grandmother is not Jewish, has a Gentile mother and is himself a Gentile. Upon finding this out, he did was a Gentile is supposed to do and that is to date other Gentiles.
To try to convince him otherwise or try to tell him to convert would be "mekareving" a Gentile which we are not allowed to do.
He could have continued the lie and ruined some poor Jewish girl's life to "correct" his father's and grandfather's lie and have Jewish children. But he is a righteous Gentile who chose not to do that. And for that we are grateful, because the life he would have ruined is our daughter's.
Anyway, I get pains in my kishkas when I type about this.
I don't think there is anything more to say except that if any of the boy's Rabbis had even asked about his family in 1). the kiruv yeshiva he attended from age 8, 2). the Chabad house the family attended most Shabboses 3). the father's parents non Chabad Orthodox shul where his Bar Mitzvah was 4). the post High School learning he attended 5). the NCSY programs he attended 6). the shul in the senior citizens complex where he was a substitute chazzan and finally
Mother of the Not Bride said...
ReplyDelete"Ironically, it is Orthodox converts, who have cause to worry. In recent years, the chief rabbinate has pared down to a handful the rabbis in North America who can perform conversions which they will certify"
Oh has this become a huge nightmare in shidduchim in the US!!!
You started with this statement that is a quote that impinges upon the Rabbinute in actuality and then followed with your personal story of pain. Essentially you claim that Rabbinute's stringency is fueling a Shidduc crisis. However now the truth starts to come out.
Yes, they also attend a Conservative shul.
They weren't Orthodox. They weren't conservative who attended Chabad sometimes. If your daughter or you are as frum as you claim this should have been a huge red flag from the beginning. That you or her chose to ignore this initially begins to point to the real problem.
Then you claim that Chabad did the conversion, but now you are not sure there was a conversion. Then you state,
The grandmother did not have any conversion, obviously or the mother would have produced it.
We never could find out if the mother had any sort of conversion, but I would say it does not matter because she works in her office on Shabbos.
So you really don't know if there was a conversion. Yet you feel free to blame a sect of Judaism for your problems.
Secondly if there was a conversion(Orthdox not Conservative), just to get this clear, and the mother initially kept Torah U'Mitzvot and later abandonned them, after all how long have you known these people, she would still be Jewish. She would be a Jew living in sin, possibly(if her office is open but she is not working there that could be valid according to halacha). You have never said specifically that she works on Shabbat.
The daughter performing music in the Chabad shul really happened, I have a video.
First this is a non-starter. You have not specified that she was singing only performing, motzei shabbat. There is nothing wrong with that. There is no halacha against a woman playing an instrument. Now if you say she was singing, I would have a very hard believing that a Chabad Rav allowed that, but even if they did, I can list several Gedolim who rule that as long as the woman in question is not married(and I hope a Bat Mitzvah is not married) there is no issue of kol isha.
Secondly if this really was outside of your haskafa why did you record it, if you believe what she was doing was an avera then recording it is also an avera.
Third if this made you so uncomfortable why wasn't this anothe red flag for you?
"the Rebbe explicity banned his people from doing conversions. "
Chabad Rabbis schlep together an ad hoc Beis Din of Rabbis for conversions.
Who has not seen or heard of this story???
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/6943/edition_id/131/format/html/displaystory.html
Chabad converts are not Jewish in Israel.
All I can say about this is that you must have a reading comprehension problem. He was not a Chabad convert, he was an RCA convert, that this highly biased piece, claims was later affiliated with a Chabad center.
Secondly the RCA Rav Mill specifically said that it was a child conversion(already questionable) and that it was contingent on him finishing Orthodox education. However, the article makes no claim as to whether or not he did. Though is is a side point. The major point is that was a RCA Rabbi who performed the conversion, NOT A CHABAD RABBI. Have you ever met a Chabadnik named Lester? Please! All the more one that the Rebbe would have sent on Shlichus.
Whether Chabad converts today, as yes some things have changed since the Rebbe's passing, are accepted in Israel is still, as far as I know under discussion, and the only hold up seems to be Mashiachists.
Once it was revealed that his mother's mother is not Jewish and the mother could not or would not produce an Orthodox conversion, how could anyone write a letter saying he was Jewish??
This is supposedly after the fact. However you had a boy, which you say, they all believed to be Jewish. So again why didn't they simply write him a letter first of all? That's what my own Rabbanim did when I wanted to get married, or applied for Dayanut training? Why is this case different?
A boy whose maternal grandmother is not Jewish, has a Gentile mother and is himself a Gentile. Upon finding this out, he did was a Gentile is supposed to do and that is to date other Gentiles.
To try to convince him otherwise or try to tell him to convert would be "mekareving" a Gentile which we are not allowed to do.
I hate repeating myself, but once again you have a person who grew assuming he was Jewish, and definitely educated Jewish. Assumed to be part of the Jewish community.
According to everyone Gadol and Posek I know aside from R' Sternbuch, there is a mitzvah to convert him!!! Which probably would have been a good place to start.
Obviously neither you nor your daughter seem overly heartbroken over his departure as you state,
My daughter said that she felt as though marrying him would not be any different than any other goy. She believed that she would lose her place in Olam Haba for doing so and would be a zonah for being with him.
Although Chabad would have married them, (I assume since they hired him to lain) she feels that if he is not a Jew in Israel, he is just a goy, no different than any other goy.
She is a real yiras shamayim. B"H
I do not know what I would have done in her place, maybe gone to Chabad.
She says that she believes that because he does not have a Jewish neshama, that if she tried to "cheat" on G-d, and marry him anyway, she would be the one who would suffer, being married to a Golem. He is a bit of a Golem which his neighbors blamed on being raised by maids, but really, if you have emunah, it is because he does not have a Yiddishe neshoma.
He could have continued the lie and ruined some poor Jewish girl's life to "correct" his father's and grandfather's lie and have Jewish children. But he is a righteous Gentile who chose not to do that. And for that we are grateful, because the life he would have ruined is our daughter's
The truth is someone's life was ruined. A poor boy who in one stroke had his entire life's identity, his culture, and if your words are to believed the love of his life stripped away. If there is a victim in all of this it is him.
Finally you state,
Although Chabad would have married them, (I assume since they hired him to lain) she feels that if he is not a Jew in Israel, he is just a goy, no different than any other goy.
Your daughters obvious lack of sensitivity or empathy to the boy aside, I have a hard time believing that Chabad would have married them. Especially as you state,
Once it was revealed that his mother's mother is not Jewish and the mother could not or would not produce an Orthodox conversion, how could anyone write a letter saying he was Jewish???
If they would not give him a letter of Jewishness, they woudl not marry him either.
Mekubal,
ReplyDelete"If your daughter or you are as frum as you claim this should have been a huge red flag from the beginning. That you or her chose to ignore this initially begins to point to the real problem."
What was I supposed to do, hire a private investigator before my daughter went out??
A 40 year veteran Chabad shliach, Rabbi L, also the Rosh yeshiva of a respected day school,Rabbi R, several of his Rebbes and teachers, a very well respected community Rav,Rabbi B, the niece of a Rosh Kollel, Rabbi K, who grew up next door to the boy and several neighbors and long time acquaintances of the family all told me glowing things!!
I met the boy's mother and his mother's mother before they went out. The mother's mother told me her maiden name which was a German surname that is commonly used by Jews also.
And just to make it worse, well respected community Rabbis are STILL calling to recommend this boy for my daughter and he has been out of the Jewish community for 3 years now! (I have not told anyone he is not Jewish because both he and his sister have left the Jewish community completely, and are both dating Gentiles. He father's parents have no idea and this would kill them if they found out. They are very elderly).
You say:"Obviously neither you nor your daughter seem overly heartbroken over his departure as you state,"
My daughter has been crying for 3 years over this. Can you imagine what happens in our house when yet another shadchan calls up and yet again recommends this boy? The shadchans are right. He was perfectly matched to my daughter, in temperament, in lifestyle, they even look like brother and sister.
"The truth is someone's life was ruined. A poor boy who in one stroke had his entire life's identity, his culture, and if your words are to believed the love of his life stripped away. If there is a victim in all of this it is him."
He is a victim and I agree with you. It is a tragedy and I have been up plenty of nights crying. But meanwhile, he is out dating Asian girls, partying and publishing the pictures on Facebook.
My daughter is sitting home wondering if she will ever find her bashert.
"Your daughters obvious lack of sensitivity or empathy to the boy aside, I have a hard time believing that Chabad would have married them."
My husband asked the senior shaliach of Chabad in our city, Rabbi L, about the boy and asked specifically about him for our daughter. The shaliach said "great boy, very frum, very brilliant, a Talmid Chacham, very good natured, he will be a great great husband for someone, why shouldn't it be your daughter"?
That is a pretty high recommendation. The same Rabbi hired him to lain the Torah in his shul. Why wouldn't he have married him???
After the boy revealed as his grandmother who made the shiddach was announcing the engagement that "he was not eligible to marry her", which he did on the phone from Vermont, then and only then, did it occur to me to do a public record search to find out where his mother's mother's parents were buried (its a matter of public record, the name of the informant, the grandmother is on the death certificate), to see that it is in a Catholic cemetery.
Was I so "not frum" to trust the dozen Rabbis who have known him since he was a small child and who spoke so glowingly about him??
Just for the record, my daughter is a frum BY type. Our family is Modern Orthodox. It is difficult for me to understand the benefits of shiddach dating in a "frum" world were Rabbis either lie or don't even know when someone is a goy.
Mekubal -- you're being pretty hard on the mother.
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to look at this from the outside and imagine my own child in this position.
The thing that attracted me to this website is that questions about Jewish identity are front page.
Is someone Jewish just because they think they are? If they think they are Jewish, because they are the product of an intermarriage, why does this make them a more desirable candidate for conversion?
I guess my question is that I wonder what exactly happens when someone converts, and why we allow people to join the religion in the first place.
Your remarks give me the impression that qualification for becoming Jewish is more habit-based than faith-based.
I would ask Rabbi Eidensohn to comment on this
If growing up in a Jewish community and going to Jewish school gives someone an advantage in the conversion process, I would like to understand why Jewish men should marry Jewish women at all.
I would ask Rabbi Eidensohn to comment on this too.
A 40 year veteran Chabad shliach, Rabbi L, also the Rosh yeshiva of a respected day school,Rabbi R, several of his Rebbes and teachers, a very well respected community Rav,Rabbi B, the niece of a Rosh Kollel, Rabbi K, who grew up next door to the boy and several neighbors and long time acquaintances of the family all told me glowing things!!
ReplyDeleteThe shaliach said "great boy, very frum, very brilliant, a Talmid Chacham, very good natured, he will be a great great husband for someone, why shouldn't it be your daughter"? That is a pretty high recommendation. The same Rabbi hired him to lain the Torah in his shul. Why wouldn't he have married him???
Yet none of them would write him a letter of Jewishness for Rabbinut?
None would help him defend his own Jewishness?
None would convert him L'chumra on the spot?
I know of world renowned Rabbis who while teaching at a prestigious sem in Jerusalem and teaching girls to family tree, found out they were "goyim". They all did quiet conversions quickly.
Something simply is not right about your story.
And just to make it worse, well respected community Rabbis are STILL calling to recommend this boy for my daughter and he has been out of the Jewish community for 3 years now! (I have not told anyone he is not Jewish because both he and his sister have left the Jewish community completely, and are both dating Gentiles. He father's parents have no idea and this would kill them if they found out. They are very elderly).
I am calling BS on this one. It is the biggest hole in your well crafted story. To say this shows that you have no real knowledge of how the shidduch system or the frum community really works.
So as not to give away the initmate details of the shidduch system to all, essentially before anyone would call to suggest a match they would know exactly were the boy was holding.
They would for sure know that he left the Jewish community. When he stopped showing up to daven would be their first clue. I have never been in any Jewish community where, after I skipped three for four days(just being sick with the flu) that a Rav did either call or visit to see what was doing.
I can see how this would have went down, Rabbi goes to a boy's house. Boy tells him that he found out that he wasn't really Jewish after all, and decided that the like the freedom better. So he decided to shuck it all and party hard with Asian girls. So the Rav runs right out to make a shidduch for him with a BY girl.
While I am a believer in infinite probability theory, even this is nigh on impossible.
As far as the Great grandmother being buried in a Catholic cemetary, I am afraid to tell you that you would find that in the pasts of a good many Jews. Many Jews "converted" to Catholicism at differing points to escape persecution. I know someone quite well whose great-grandmother did this to get out of Germany in the 1930's. All of her children returned to Judaism of some form, and are reliably, halachically Jews. She however is buried in a Catholic cemetary.
It is difficult for me to understand the benefits of shiddach dating in a "frum" world were Rabbis either lie or don't even know when someone is a goy.
Again this is where your story breaks down. If as you say the boys mother converted, every Rav or Shadchan always asks for the mother's Hebrew name... various reasons for this, but as soon as they see Plonit bat Avraham Avinu/Sarah Immanu... they will know that the boy's mother is a ger, and should reliably check into that.
Same thing with being accepted into any Yeshiva. It is on every application. If his Rosh Yeshiva accepted him, and thus his mother's geirus(as it is ossur to teach Torah to goyim) then he would have defended him and the Geirus, as this would reflect upon his own institution.
As I have stated many times. Given all of those facts, how did Rabbinut even find out his mother was a Ger? It is not a question they ask, they only ask, immediately for a letter from a Rav stating that you are Jewish. If so many well respected Rabbanim thought he was Jewish, no one would give him a letter?
Recieving Semicha in Israel from Rabbinut, making Aliyah, marrying, I have never been asked to produce anything but a letter from a recognized community Rav that I was Jewish.
The only time I was required to produce any sort of proof of Yichut was when I wanted to change my last name to a Kohanic patrinimic(actually what public records say it once was). However, I told Rabbinute that I had not the means to do so, so they undertook the investigation. It took them six weeks, and at the end they had a two inch stack of documents tracing my family back over 1000 years. Then you know what they told me. They need a letter from a recognized community Rav or a Rav from a registered Yeshiva stating that they trusted me to be a Kohen, and that that would have worked from the beginning.
The problem is that while the Rav that did his conversion once was relied upon, since he has had several rather spectactular moral failings(for instance making Shidduch with his current(5th) wife before starting the Get process with the last.
ReplyDeleteWho that rav would be ? we have here on this board a keiruv and geirus rabbi (lt) who was dating his second wife while still mesarev get to his first wife.
Mekubal,
ReplyDeleteI just spent about an hour reading all of the threads on this post.
Your statements to the Mother clearly demonstrate YOUR lack of connection to what the so called 'frum world' is really all about.
Rabbi Eidensohn knows my true identity. If you like, I can send to you via Rabbi Eidensohn exact names of well known publicly respected Rabbis and the verifiable deeds they have done to condone intermarriage.
You seem to think it actually means something when "every Rabbi" asks the mother's Hebrew name. As if that's a difficult question to get around! I know one goya who just answered by saying her mother's name was Ruchel bas Sura. Do you really think that's enough to prove Jewishness? Well, the Orthodox Rabbi (a former President of the OU in fact) married her to a Kohen because he never looked beyond her made up story. Assuming you know something about Judaism you will also know that a Kohen can't marry a convert,so either way this one's no good. I can prove this allegation privately if you need the convincing.
You further say "Same thing with being accepted into any Yeshiva."
What utter nonsense! I can give you names of Roshei Yeshiva, prominent ones, who I the unpleasant task of calling to inform them that their star Gemura students were goyim. They almost never check.
You then say: "As far as the Great grandmother being buried in a Catholic cemetary, I am afraid to tell you that you would find that in the pasts of a good many Jews. Many Jews "converted" to Catholicism at differing points to escape persecution."
I've read the timeline in Mother's story. Do you really think this applies to the 1950s to 1980s in the United States? (if the boy is 20 now, his great-grandmother would have been born approximately 1900).
Instead of judging the story false by applying your prejudices about a system of which you know nothing, perhaps instead it might worthy to discuss the environment that allows a story such as Mother's to occur.
From MY experience, it's all too believable.
Dear Mekubal,
ReplyDeleteI will try to answer your questions as best as I can. I feel like I am being put on trial here and I do not think that is fair.
You said:
"Yet none of them would write him a letter of Jewishness for Rabbinut?"
We only found out that there was a problem right before the engagement was announced. He told my daughter over the phone that he could not marry her because he was not eligible. What would make him ineligible??
It was then that we did a public records search and discovered that his grandmother had signed a death certificate and buried her mother in a Catholic cemetery.
Should we then have asked the Rabbis to write letters attesting to his Jewishness????
The boy himself would not do it. He would not lie to marry our daughter. He is a righteous Gentile and not a fraud pretending to be a Jew.
"None would convert him L'chumra on the spot?"
Its not a conversion l'chumra. The boy simply is not Jewish.
"I know of world renowned Rabbis who while teaching at a prestigious sem in Jerusalem and teaching girls to family tree, found out they were "goyim". They all did quiet conversions quickly. "
Yes, I have heard of these too. And then the girl goes to get married and the Rabbi who is doing the wedding better be the same Rabbi who did the conversion or else the girl will be disgraced and heartbroken. This happened to a girl I know went to marry a boy in Israel. The wedding never happened and she went home in shame.
"I am calling BS on this one."
I will email Rabbi Eidensohn upon reqest with the names and phone numbers of all of those involved along with the names and phone numbers of each Rav. It would be very easy to verify the story.
" To say this shows that you have no real knowledge of how the shidduch system or the frum community really works."
It was a community Rabbi who called to suggest this boy as a shiddach for my daughter this past month. The other shadchan was the gabbai from the Chabad shul where the family belongs. He also makes a lot of shidduchim.
"They would for sure know that he left the Jewish community. "
Both shadchamin told us that he is learning at YU, which may have been what they were told, but we know that this is not true. He is not even living any where near NYC, or LA.
"So the Rav runs right out to make a shidduch for him with a BY girl."
We have no money and there are health problems in the family, so we are prime targets for that sort of thing. We are not naive about that. We can accept health problems, divorces, BT's and other issues but we do not want our daughter to marry a Gentile, no matter how frum he appears to be.
"As far as the Great grandmother being buried in a Catholic cemetary,"
The great grandmother was an Irish Catholic who married a German Catholic and attended a Catholic Church. The extended family are buried in the same cemetery and it was easy to put together the family tree back to the 1700s. They are all definitely not Jewish.
If there was any chance that they were Jewish, then I am sure that the mother would have shared that legend with the boy whom she knows was raised to be an Orthodox Jew.
The grandmother married a Jewish man and they did not live as Jews at all. The mother only had a Jewish surname but no Jewish education. She and his father eloped because she was pregnant (the boy weighed 7 lbs at birth and was born 6 months after they married in a civil ceremony, this is also from public records).
The father's family really do not know the mother at all because they do not speak a common language and were rarely welcome in the house.
This boy ended up religious because he was a sick child who was sent to live with his grandparents who had more time to care for him than his working mother. The grandparents are Orthodox Jews who put him in yeshiva.
"every Rav or Shadchan always asks for the mother's Hebrew name'
We were told the mother's Hebrew name by the Chabad Rabbi.
"Same thing with being accepted into any Yeshiva. It is on every application."
I checked that, because I called the Rosh Yeshiva before they went out; I was told that the yeshiva application says that his mother is a born Jew and there are no converts in the family.
"how did Rabbinut even find out his mother was a Ger? "
It never got that far, the boy told my daughter that he was "not eligible to marry her and that she should respect the Rabbis". He also asked to be invited to her wedding when she finds her bashert. It was heartbreaking.
We don't know if the mother is a giyores or not. We assume that she is because she is very active in the Chabad sisterhood. The parents are big donors and being honored at dinners etc. I assume that the shaliach asked questions and did as you said above "found out they were "goyim". They all did quiet conversions quickly. "
Or maybe they lied or the shaliach never asked. I don't know and it does not matter now.
Actually no... I am talking about a Rav who is currently on his fourth young wife... R' Tropper's conversions, as far as I know, are still supported by R' Eisenstein.
ReplyDeleteMekubal wrote:
ReplyDeleteSruli -
I follow the conversion news quite closely, and I haven't heard of any pronoucements about a blanket issur on converting children of intermarriage. My understanding of R' Shternbuch's shitta was that children of intermarriage should not be *mekareved*, that they should not be encourage to convert, and should be treated like a regular non-Jew in this respect. It doesn't seem to me that R' Shternbuch would forbid the conversion of such a child, assuming the child is a good, honest candidate, who realizes he's not Jewish (yet). R' Eidensohn - perhaps you can clarify.
================
I asked Rav Sternbuch this Shabbos about a yeshiva bachur who discovered his mother's conversion was not valid - he said "tovel him in the mikveh."
I was also told by someone else concerning a case where a Russian baalas teshuva was about to be married when it was discovered her mother wasn't Jewish. Rav Sternbuch told this person that the kallah should be toveled and married.
In short - Rav Sternbuch is in line with the common minhag that in a case which doesn't involve proselytizing that the person sincerely thought they were Jewish and the error was in their parents conversion - it is permissible to convert them.
Thus this raises the question as to why in the case presented here - there wasn't an attempt to have a kosher conversion for the bachur?
There was a similar incident involving Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky. At the chasana the parents told him that the boy was adopted as a non-Jewish baby and was never told that he was adopted or that he had been converted. Rav Yaakov called over the bachor and told him, "You have a choice to make. Do you want to be Jewish or not?" The bachor said no. That was the end of the chasunah.
In other words it sounds like this bachor was happy to have an excuse to not be Jewish and he took it.
Daas Torah said...
ReplyDeleteThus this raises the question as to why in the case presented here - there wasn't an attempt to have a kosher conversion for the bachur?
===================================
Hence why I have been saying that far more is going on here then the "story" that we are given. This isn't quantum mechanics, 2+2 should =4. However in this case it is not. It just does not add up on a number of levels.
Bright Eyes...
ReplyDeleteI don't need convincing. If you truly did read the whole thing you will find that
1)I was surprised that the did check.
2)That is was a sudden shock that the mother was a convert to anyone.
3)That I state that I know of major Rabbis and Gedolim that found out that they "weren't" Jewish.
As far as the possiblity of a Jewish person "converting" to catholicism to escape persecution born c1900, I have to ask you... di you every hear of a little group of people that raised a lot of trouble for all of us in Germany called the Nazis? I know of at least one family where this occured.
I don't find Mother's story to be unbelievable on account of a boy finding out that a conversion wasn't valid. Or that someone who was thought a Jew and thought themselves to be Jewish, found out they weren't. I am a Kohen(which you would know if you had read this entire thread), I was married to a Goya for three years, no children B"H, who falsified public records to prove Jewishness...
No the reason that I find Mother's story unbelievable is because of two primary reasons:
1) No tried the solution R' Sternbuch gave to D"T. None of his Rabbis, no one tried to help... they all called it prosletyzing.
2)After such an event, the Rabbis of the community don't realize that the boy has left the community, and still try to set him up on Shidduch dates. Even with the same failed Shidduch. Now I have been around the Frum world and play Jewish Geography enough to know that the Frum world is small and very interconnected. I don't find it possible that in that very same community that the Rabbanim don't know what's going on. I live in Mekor Baruch, but somehow when I am going to go to visit the US, everyone in the Rova knows it... You cannot tell me that they wouldn't know that this boy, 1)was found to be not Jewish, 2)has gone off the derech, 3)was dating and engaged to this girl. They were far enough into the wedding plans to contact Rabbinut, Rabbis at least had to know.
3) With a "shidduch crisis" underway I have a hard time believing that any Rabbi or Shaddchan is suggesting a boy who they are not currently in contact with, to any girl.
4)I find it impossible to believe that RCA/BDA was contacted and refused to convert the boy, when that is the establised minhag. One that seems to be recognized by every dayyan that I have ever talked with, and now despite previous assertions, R' Sternbuch as well.
The details initially are incidental and believable. However, when these are added in one needs to question the others as well.
As far as how much I know about the frum world and its inner workings you may be surprised. I will grant you that Mother's story is emotional and on the surface. However, there elements to somone who knows the inner workings of Yeshivot and Geirut that simply don't make sense. Try not to fall into an emotional trap next time.
What that with all those keiruv professionals who leave their wife and children for barely legal college girl.
ReplyDeleteThey maybe missed on the pilpul which says that keiruv means keiruv to yiddishkeit not keiruv to themselves
"Thus this raises the question as to why in the case presented here - there wasn't an attempt to have a kosher conversion for the bachur?"
ReplyDelete"In other words it sounds like this bachor was happy to have an excuse to not be Jewish and he took it."
The bachur dropped all of his Jewish friends and wasted no time at all leaving Yiddishkeit behind.
Please ask Rav Sternbuch this question for me. After what has happened with this boy, I have been running a background check on every boy we are recommended for shidduchim. I have found that most (2/3s) of them have mothers or maternal grandmothers who are not Jewish and for whom either no conversion was done or a questionable (ie Conservative) conversion was done.
I have rejected each of these boys on the basis that they are not halachically Jewish because their mothers are not Jewish, only their fathers.
Each of the boys we have rejected (I am not exaggerating when I say it has been about 2 dozen) have been yeshiva educated and have come highly recommended by their Rabbis.
Am I wrong to reject a shiddach because the boy is not halachically Jewish?
It is true that all he has to do is toivel and then it is okay???
Have I been wrong in my belief that a person needs to have a Jewish mother in order to be Jewish???
Does it matter if the boy is "frum" and how "frum" does a Gentile need to be to marry a Jew with the only requirement being a premarital mikveh???
If this boy wished to return to living a Jewish life, would Rav Sternbuch marry him???
My daughter thinks that he would be willing to live a Jewish life if he would be able to be married to her. He calls every few months or so, just to ask if she is engaged yet or not. She sits down and sobs for hours every time he does this. I am sure that it is very painful for him also.
Mekubal -
"3) With a "shidduch crisis" underway I have a hard time believing that any Rabbi or Shaddchan is suggesting a boy who they are not currently in contact with, to any girl."
Both the Rabbi and the other shadchan are in contact with the parents of the boy who are still actively seeking a shiddach for their son who no longer lives in a frum community.
Rabbi Neal Turk is the RCA/BDA Rabbi who was contacted regarding this. You can call Rabbi Turk to verify his answers to the same questions. I believe that you have enough information here to reconstruct the scenario very accurately.
And I will make clear that there was no engagement. The boy told his parents that he wished to become engaged and the grandmother who made the shiddach in the first place was going around wishing everyone "mazel tov".
And it has been my experience that most shadchanim do not really know the people they set up.
I am sorry that you do not believe my story, Mekubal. As I mentioned before, if DT requests, I will email all of the names and phone numbers so that it can be verified.
Mother,
ReplyDeleteRabbi Neal Turk. That is enough said.
As far as what can be done now the the initial boy... I would say contact a competant Av B"D somewhere. I trust more those in Baltimore, Philadelphia, and New York, but whatever works for you.
Yashar Koach on your Bedika of other prospects. If they are all from that same community, it wouldn't necessarily surprise me. I have heard of numerous problems from there. My only advice is to fish a different pond.
Have I been wrong in my belief that a person needs to have a Jewish mother in order to be Jewish???
Does it matter if the boy is "frum" and how "frum" does a Gentile need to be to marry a Jew with the only requirement being a premarital mikveh???
No you are not wrong that the mother needs to be Jewish in order for the person to be Jewish in the plain sense.
It has little do do with a goy being "frum". It really comes down to people first and foremost believing that they truly are Jewish, and secondly that the mother or grandmother, or some other distant relative had a conversion, though perhaps not a valid one, but the validity or lack there of either was not understood, or not conveyed to later generations.
For example a woman converts conservative or reform, becomes "frum" but never fixes the first mistake. Conveys to her children that she, and they are Jewish, possibly even that she she converted, and because the children all attend a religious school, they think that they are truly Jewish. Then later find out that though they have kept Torah and mitzvot all their lives, they aren't really Jewish and thus there is a problem. In such a case a dip in the mikvah will work.
In the specfic case of the boy you and your daughter are dealing with there are a couple of things. First there was the problem of the Rabbis who did [not] immediately seek to rectify the situation before he left the frum community, unless he really did pack up and leave overnight.
Specifically as to his options now, I am not expert enough in the matters of Geirus at this point to say, also I don't know the particulars of his individual case well enough. We may have his actions of partying and dating goyim. However there are several questions that depending on their asnwers would make those things a non-issue. For instance, is he only doing this out of feelings of hurt and rejection? Does he think that there is no possibility for him to convert normally, or that it would be a multi-year process as it is for a goy off the street? Depending on how he would answer questions such as those, and depending on whether the B"D considered those answers to be sincere, would determine their decision.
Daas Torah said:
ReplyDelete"I asked Rav Sternbuch this Shabbos about a yeshiva bachur who discovered his mother's conversion was not valid - he said "tovel him in the mikveh."
I was also told by someone else concerning a case where a Russian baalas teshuva was about to be married when it was discovered her mother wasn't Jewish. Rav Sternbuch told this person that the kallah should be toveled and married.
In short - Rav Sternbuch is in line with the common minhag that in a case which doesn't involve proselytizing that the person sincerely thought they were Jewish and the error was in their parents conversion - it is permissible to convert them."
This is 180 degrees opposite from the Bedatz letter signed by Rabbi Sternbuch from last year saying giving excellent reasons why it would be forbidden to convert the child of an intermarried man.
Now I'm really confused and BEG you for some clarification.
I know of a man who we will call Ovadia. Ovadia, an Orthodox Jew who is a well known Chazan, married a gentile woman and moved to the U.S. They have been living as Jews and have raised sons who are star learners in their Yeshiva.
It was recently discovered (as the result of a Shiddach recommendation) that the woman has been posing as a Jew all along.
According to the Bedatz statement, the boys cannot be converted. According to what Rabbi Sternbuch told you above, they should be converted.
So, should they, or shouldn't they?
It was recently discovered (as the result of a Shiddach recommendation) that the woman has been posing as a Jew all along.
ReplyDeleteAccording to the Bedatz statement, the boys cannot be converted. According to what Rabbi Sternbuch told you above, they should be converted.
So, should they, or shouldn't they?
The case I discussed with Rav Sternbuch involved a faulty conversion. The child was raised a frum Jew - he said to convert him.
=========================
The case you are describing is one in which there was no conversion.
The cases mentioned by the Bedatz there was no conversion of the parents or the kids.
I will ask Rav Sternbuch if there was no conversion but the child thought he was Jewish - should he be converted.
Finally does it make a difference whether he has lived a frum lifestyle or not.
Mekubal-
ReplyDeletePlease help me to understand because now I am even more confused and upset. Thank you for having patience with me.
When you say "Rabbi Neal Turk. That is enough said."
I do not understand. I was told that Rabbi Turk is the only Rabbi in the Southeast whose conversions are recognized in Israel. Rabbi Turk's Beis Din is the only one listed on the RCA's BDA website as conforming to the RCA's GPS standards that are accepted in Israel.
Is there something wrong?
I had thought that Rabbi David Lehrfield's Beis Din was the only one in the Southeast that was recognized because that was the one listed on ITIM's list of Recognized Beis Din's but I did ask a local Rabbi to call the Office of Conversion in Israel for us to find out. This Rabbi's sister works as a secretary for the Rabbinute so I thought I was given the correct information. She told us that Rabbi David Lehrfield's Beis Din was the only one that was ever recognized, but then I was told that this is not true.
It's really confusing and heartbreaking right now.
My husband did call his Rabbi last night and left a message. My husband also called back the other shadchan. You have given us the hope that if he were willing to live an observant life again, all he would have to do is go before a Beis Din and toivel.
I just really don't know who to believe or trust because I am getting conflicting answers.
Incidentally, another family we know is also going through this very same thing. They are also being told different things by different Rabbis and do not know who to trust.
Mother,
ReplyDeleteI have not dealt with the US side of things for some time, I have only dealt with the Israeli side of things. When it comes to that community I have seen a number of strange and interesting things. One instance that wondered into a Yeshiva over here was a family that converted down that from Christianity. Only thing is that someone forgot to tell them that this meant giving up their Christianity. I also personally know a Chareidi Rav from Israel that was hired to work in that community, he was back in three months because of, "all the odd things they expected him to overlook."
While the B"D in the Southeast may be the most convenient as far as location, you are not constricted to using that particular B"D. Personally I would, and have used Batei Din that are outside the area and not only recognized by Israel, but well respected by the Chareidi public.
For instance when I was going to marry my wife, because of previous problems, I decided to seek a psak from a certain Av B"D on whether it was a halachically permissable match. I didn't use the B"D or the Rabbis from it that were local, I contacted the Av of a B"D that was 3,000 miles away because I knew that far from his conversions simply being accepted in Israel, he was well respected in the Chareidi world, and also knew Shulchan Aruch Baal Peh.
As far as the particular situation with this boy. I don't want to give you false hope. Really at this point I don't know what can currently be done, if anything at all. I would simply call a B"D that is respected and trusted and see what they say.
Thank you Mekubal, I read and understand what you are saying and I sincerely appreciate your time.
ReplyDelete"When it comes to that community I have seen a number of strange and interesting things. One instance that wondered into a Yeshiva over here was a family that converted down that from Christianity. Only thing is that someone forgot to tell them that this meant giving up their Christianity."
Manny Vinas is from Miami Beach.
Rabbi Turk actually is from NY and is a musmach of YU. Rabbi Turk was in Fairlawn NJ 1988-94 and then went back to Israel for Dayyanut. Rabbi Turk has only been in Miami relatively recently (1999) and it has been my impression that Rabbi Turk was hired because the community wishes to raise the standard of halachic observance.
Coming from NY ourselves, we find these changes to be very welcome, as you can well imagine.
Thanks again for your information and research.
Thank you Rabbi Eidensohn for clarifying my question.
ReplyDeleteAs you know, there are many people learning in Yeshivos around the world who are learning as Jews because their mothers underwent faulty conversion processes, and as these children reach marriage age these questions will come up frequently.
If I understand you correctly ( and please tell me if I'm not):
it would seem that if the Beis Din determines that the faulty conversion was done with sincerity, the son of such a marriage could be eligible for conversion if he turns out to be sincerely religious himself.
On the other hand, if the Beis Din determines that the faulty conversion was not gone into with sincere intentions on the part of the woman, then the son of that marriage would not be eligible for conversion, regardless of how frum he is.
Am I understanding this properly?
Thank you again.
R' Eidensohn,
ReplyDeleteThank you for sharing with us R' Shternbuch's answers to your questions. They were very informative.
Bright Eyes,
I don't think there is a need to go into such complicated chilukim as you do in your February 16, 2009 10:40 PM comment. The two cases that R' Eidensohn brought earlier (the yeshiva bochur and the Russian woman) already covers the full range of cases: one case where the mother's conversion was deemed invalid, and another where no conversion at all took place.
I suggest that you were darshening out of the Badatz letter more than it actually means to say. Pleas re-read it.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2007/11/bedatz-letter-regarding-conversion_18.html
The letter basically states that the prohibition of proselytizing non-Jews also applies to non-Jewish children of Jewish men, and that treating such children as Jews for kiruv purposes, or to encourage future conversion, is dangerous.
Nowhere in the letter does it say, or imply, that sincere candidate should be barred from conversion simply based on the fact that s/he's the child of an intermarriage.
I thought that Bright Eyes asked a fair question.
ReplyDeleteI am also interested in the answer.
To me the letter seems to take aim at EJF/R' Tropper. In my mind the question remains as to whether R' Eisenstein, the conversion Representative of R' Eliashiv is still taking part in EJF. If so that, in my mind becomes a machloket Gedolim.
ReplyDeleteAside from that the letter does not seem to state that we should not convert the children of intermarriage, but rather we should not seek them out to convert them. Haskafically, personally, this is more where I fall out, however I don't want to step into the middle of what is possibly a debate between Gedolim.
Also the letter does not seem to contradict what I have been told in minhag when a child from intermarriage actively(on their own) desires conversion, namely that we do not try to push them away like we would some one else.
To me the letter seems to be specifically dealing with active prosylitizion of non-Jews and children of intermarriage as some type of kiruv tool.
Mother,
ReplyDeleteTo be clear I did mean any of what I said to degrade R' Turk. Rather the mention of him let me know which community we were dealing with.
There have been several problem Rabbis and conversions from that general community. The conversion I spoke of in my earlier post was done pre '99. However, the Chareidi Rav that moved to that community to aid in a Shul, happened within the last year(I bellieve I mentioned he stayed only 3 months despite a great contract on account of "things going on there"), so for an an outsider it seems as though problems are still ongoing.
Did you contact R' Turk initially? If so there are a couple of possibilities as to why he gave a negative answer.
1) He did not have all of the information. In any case the smallest details can swing things by miles. As I have said and I believe is true, this sounded like an incredibly emotional event. It should be considered that in midst of the all emotion some details were left out when relaying events. I have seen people lose relatively minor cases dealing only with monetary issues becuase they were not able to effectively relay the relevant details of a situation on account of emotion. This has to be much greater than that. Unfortunately a dayan is not allowed to "lead" a person to the right information.
2) Consdiering the multitude of problems in that area, R' Turk may have been, its hard to chose the right terms and still give kavod haRav, but essentially he may have been more chumradik than absolutely necessary. He may have been more concerned with not "rubber stamping" bad conversions, which is entirely understandable.
3) There may be details that none of us fully understand. I really don't want to give you false hope.
As I said you really ought to contact a B"D about it, perhaps even R' Turk again. You now have a psak of R' Sternbuch. You also have more perspective on the situation, hopefully you have all the necessary details more clearly laid out in your own mind.
I want to apologize for seeming hard on you initially. I was only seeking to find all the relevant details so help myself and others fully understand, and to perhaps help you as well.
1)RAv Eisenstein supports the organization from day one of it's inception.
ReplyDelete2) Rav Shechter supported the idea and the organization for about two years. While he dissassociated from the organization he did not back out from the idea. IT is clear that that the idea is permissible and one that should be pursued. I remember when he said about the organization, that "such na organization is a long time overdue!"
3) Rav FEinstein is a partner in the organization from day one until today! He is PART of the halachik body of the organization.
1)RAv Eisenstein supports the organization from day one of it's inception.
ReplyDelete2) Rav Shechter supported the idea and the organization for about two years. While he dissassociated from the organization he did not back out from the idea. IT is clear that that the idea is permissible and one that should be pursued. I remember when he said about the organization, that "such na organization is a long time overdue!"
3) Rav FEinstein is a partner in the organization from day one until today! He is PART of the halachik body of the organization.
Mekubal,
ReplyDelete"You now have a psak of R' Sternbuch."
I am not sure. We were assuming that the boy's mother was converted by Chabad because the family was involved there. But we are not sure she was converted by anyone.
Also it does not seem that the boy is observant now. He does not live in a place where he can walk to shul on Shabbos.
My husband finally spoke with the boy's Rabbi/shadchan this morning who when informed of the issue of the boy's status that needs to be looked into, seemed to indicate that he will simply pursue other shidduchim for him.
The End.
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