How far back into the past does this policy of non-acceptance extend? What about converts who have stayed shomer mitzvot after conversion - are they now gentiles? What about those converts' children?
What's predictable is the responses on many other blogs: how "wrong" this is.
This is the Rav Sherman thing all over again. The Chareidi beis din will claim it is following halachah. All its disputants will bring emotional arguments but not legal ones. And Rav Riskin will have to drag out his crying Torah one more time.
For once I'd like to see a refutation of this beis din based (get it: beis d, based?!?) on halachah instead of "What a crappy thing that was to do". Because in real legal systems crappy things happen all the time. That may make them difficult to accept but not illegal.
The RCA under the Geirus Protocals- Beth Din of America has a new website that answers a lot of questions.
http://www.judaismconversion.org/index.html
The website states:
One of the benefits of the system of regional batei din under the auspices of the Rabbinical Council of America is that it provides future converts with the security that their conversions will be broadly accepted and will not be unnecessarily questioned in the future.
The current system should in no way affect the status of conversions performed prior to its inception.
All those who were converted properly in the past in accordance with the dictates of halacha should be aware that the status of their conversions is unchanged. If an individual is concerned that his or her conversion may not be recognized, he or she may contact the Beth Din of America for assistance. "
> All those who were converted properly in the past in accordance with the dictates of halacha
Ah, but that's the trick statement, isn't it? The Israeli chareidi beis dins have a definition of what a proper halachic conversion is and they're using that definition to overturn these previously valid ones.
To Garnel We are discussing our holy nation and how to keep it holy, so it behooves u to discuss this in language befitting this important topic. The Halacha clearly states that a convert must accept and perform all (possible) 613 Mitzvohs. Failure to accept even one invalidates the giur. Now what is your question?
Most signatures seem to be from the USA or Canada.
IT is a very sensitive issue indeed. It is an issue for kedushat am yisrael. And an issue that cannot be shoved under the rug. Rav Moshe quivered with this since he came to the USA. The problems will remain here to stay if there would be no consensus over a higher standard! A minimal but higher. The system cannot allow continuous proliferation of "converts" without basic kabbalat hamitzvot: not to drive on sabbat, not to cook on shabbat, not to eat taref in a tref restaurant, not to go to mikveh when necessary. How can one later complain that there are those who have legitimate claims that such practices are not valid. They should complain over the allowance of such a valueless and meaningless "Conversion" ceremony to replace the institution of a concept that transforms a person who until now was not (openly) part of the jewish nation to become part of the Holy Nation! This must come through some real transformation befitting an am Kadosh. When it is necessary to perform a conversion to an intermarried couple who seeks to change the lives to a Torah lifestyle they must act in the spirit and the letter of this idea, and not just to get another piece of paper so that others not look at them as strangers, for in that case they should remain in the way they are, for (although it is a tragic phenomenon for intermarried to live together a married life) it is better that they not delude themselves and others that they are Jewish when one of them is really not (yet) Jewish. WE do not do them and ourselves any favors by giving them this poisonous sweet candy for after the intake of this candy they will still be in the same state as before and worse off as one who attempts to fool himself does not know how really he is in need for a cure.
In addition the actual process cannot be one that makes a mockery of this holy concept by making this a business and violating the laws that a judge cannot charge exorbitant fees to make the conversion.
What is the chidush ? Vaad Hrobanim Haolami Leinyaney Giyur had it for rabbi Bomzert for many years and they used to have many edicts and proclamations against him but they usually only used te R. B. (check the archives in http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/vaad.htm )I guess they hesitated to go directly after prominent Modern Orthodox rabbi. Time changes and the submissiveness of the MO just caused more haredi aggressiveness.
This is not different from r' Nachum Eisenstein saying that Rabbis who wear blue shirt, believe in old universe and round earth cannot serve as dayans or from Tropper banning Slifkin or other pashkevils you see on the walls of Jerusalem, Beni brak and West Hollywood (ok just kidding on the last one).
I think the haredi had for rabbi Bomzer from his role on Vaad Harabanim of Flatbush when they did not like Modern Orthodoxy supervision and started their own kashrus Kehila Kosher while saying that the vaad Harabanim hashgacha is not good.
You can try and try to defend the indefensible. This edict and warning was signed by many RAbbonim, bsides Rav Eisenstein. And someone like Rav Moshe Solovetichk who if i'm not mistaking is not a charedi who ttacks MO in general. But the truth is, that if you ask serious MO Rabbis they will tell you that they detest RHB's "conversions" just as Rabbi Eisenstein!
The body and contents of this letter are very serious matters!
Unfortunately, its heading (meaning its letter-head) and its ending (meaning its signatories and their supposed signatures that ideally would need to be confirmed by neutral third parties) weaken it to the point that it may unfortunately make it near to worthless, and one sees why it could be withstood by Rabbi Bomzer (see a little more about him below) or someone similar to him in his situation.
Bomzer is not Slifkin and he cannot be treated that way nor will he go quitely into the night just because Tropper hates him and rav Eisenstein has targeted him for elimination and disgrace without due process (do rabbis even have a notion of what that means when they issue decrees like this that they expect the world to bow down to and hail "Ja-vol"?)
Here are a few questions and observations about this letter that any intelligent reader should ask:
Concerning the Va'ad Harabonim Ha'Olami LeInyanei Giur.
We know that it was founded by the late Rav Chaim Kreiswirth of Antwerp ztk"l, and that it is run by Rav Nochum Eisenstein from Yerushalayim. It's a "Lithuanian Charedi" set up. We know it ALSO has an affiliated active Bais Din LeIyanei Giur of which Rav Eisenstein is also a dayan with three other dayanim, and that the over-all project of BOTH the Va'ad and its affiliated Bais Din are under the guidance of Rav Eliashiv.
Both the Va'ad and its Bais Din for matters pertaining to giur have an undefined relationship with the Israeli Chief Rabbinate, since the Va'ad and its Bais Din are NOT an official part of the Chief Rabbinate and reserve their right to make independent (Charedi) decisions and declarations that are neither cleared by nor approved by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate.
In fact at times the Va'ad opposes decisions of the Chief Rabbinate, such as fighting Rav Amar's plans to work with the RCA or set up new committees in Israel to deal with conversions that the Va'ad views as being too lenient or not needed. So the Va'ad's relationship with the Israeli Chief Rabbinate is, at the same time, in some ways co-operative and in some ways oppositional depending on the issues it decides to take stands on.
It is also known that Tropper has an obsession with Bomzer and hates him irrationaly and obsessively (and it's poster Roni's favorite red herring to take the focus of Tropper and put it on Bomzer instead), even as Tropper and EJF, in likewise fashion to this letter, were warned and asked by the BADATS and Rav Shternbuch to stop their own proselytizations and like in this letter, all G-d-fearing rabbis were asked not to go to EJF conventions and to stay away from Tropper and the EJF because the Tropper-Kaplan "cure" for assimilation and intermarriage is worse than the disease.
No doubt after they give "Halachik conversions" to the 2 billion "doubtfuls" they will then have to give conversions to the rest who are married or related to the 2 billion doubfuls as well as per the EJF "policy" of converting "gentile spouse" and soon, thanks to EJF the Earth over 6 billion humans will all become Jews and Troppre will then beat not just the last Lubavitcher Rebbe, but also Shabtai Tzvi and Jesus who all preached, in varying degrees, new inclusive doctrines to bring recruits to Judaism and to universalize the appeal of Judaism as Tropper's and EJF's latest ads by "Art Gib" are doing on the Internet.
So now for some questions:
*Besides Rav Eisenstein, who else rules with him on the Va'ad HaOlami?
*Are there any "checks and balances" built into the Va'ad and Bais Din, like an oversight committee or an executive committee? Does it even have lay leaders or a lay group it can say it represents? Or do they always act like a seemingly self-appointed prosecutor-judge-executioner seemingly acting without due process (even though they may not mean it this way and are acting Leshem Shomayim), just the my-way-or-the-highway-philosophy that Tropper (and maybe even Rav Eisenstien) favor? No wonder these two are not getting along as time goes by! (American yeshivas have many internal committees and balebatim watching them. While the Israeli Rabbanut is open to both influence and attack from the left and from the right.)
*Who OFFICIALLY constitutes this Va'ad? (Does it have a mailing list open to the public?)
*How does one join? (By coming to EJF seminars at spas all expenses paid by Tom Kaplan or just telling Rav Eisenstein that one likes what he has to say?)
*Are members more than yes-men to Rabbi Eisenstein and perhaps Tropper?
*Who officially recognizes this Va'ad IN WRITING on official stationary? (We are living in the 21st century and paper and ink are dirt cheap)
*Who are its official and registered members? (Can anyone produce an official list?) Does it hold regular meetings with its members (not just at free airfare-luxury-hotels-all-expenses-paid Kaplan sponsored EJF events.)
*Does it in fact have such any lists (besides the rabbis it wants to ban) at all?
*Can any rabbi that comes to the Va'ad at any given time, or that the Va'ad approaches anytime about anything, just "sign on" to any letter or decree that the Va'ad, evidently run by Rav Eisenstein alone wants? This seems to have heppened here.
*Its "American office" is given as a "P.O. Box" address, that not even the IRS would accept as an official entity for an organization that claims to be in America, unless all the mail just gets sent to Rav Eisenstein in Israel and there is no official American or other branch. (Why do they think people are so stupid and won't ask basic and obvious questions?)
*If Rav Eisenstein reminds all that he is speaking for Rav Eliashiv, then why do Rav Eliashiv's name or signature not appear on these written letters or decrees nor on its letterheads? (Printers are cheap and easy to come by.)
Rav Eisensteien is one of the few people in the world who has daily access to Rav Eliashiv so it should not be that hard for him to get Rav Eliashiv to sign decrees destroying rabbis. If Rav Eliashiv can sign so many announcements and if Rav Eisenstein has such a close relationship with Rav Eliashiv, and since this is a matter of such importance, it is surely not enough to have a letter drawn up by Rav Eisenstein alone with a few scraggly signatures, including that of Tropper, making the letter near-to-worthless in may people's learned and astute eyes, but as should have been the case, this letter should have been signed by Rav Eliashiv himself so that no doubt be cast that this is a contrived agenda to "bump off" yet another Modern Orthodox rabbi, as Tropper plotted and contrived against Slifkin or as Rav Eisenstein did when he deliberately "bumped off" the MO and RCA contingenet at the early EJF conference by disqualifying their credentials to serve as dayanim on conversion Batei Din. It's known that Rav Eisenstein hates Modern Orthodoxy, so it's really no real wonder, yet the questions must be asked out of all fairness to "the accused" who deserves better than yet another round of "Tropper-(in)justice".
*Why is this letter from the Va'ad Haolami LinYanei Giur ONLY? Why isn't there a stronger letter or pesak from the BAIS DIN Leinyanei Giur of the same organization, that may have had greater Halachik significance as a letter from a Bais Din (as the letters from the BADATS did when they came out against Tropper and EJF), but this is a letter from an organization, and organizations are a dime a dozen, and since this is such a grievous matter,and that Rav Eisenstein chose to come out with a letter from the ORGANIZATION but NOT from the BAIS DIN, both of which he is runs. Why?
*How does Rav Eisenstein expect to be respected or heard or obeyed when Bomzer or anyone could come out with letters from their Orthodox rabbinic organizations he runs or heads, see below? (This is the recipe for civil war between Orthodox organizations not just in Israel but now also in America, and it's not pretty.)
Concerning the singnatories:
*Who are they (besides Tropper and Rav Eisenstein)? Can someone please list the exact names of the signers and what their official rabbinic positions are?
*Who recognizes them?
*Why so few? Why didn't others, like the whole Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of Agudah in America sign it?
*Why do these signatories have any special "power" to make this letter and declaration?
*Why should any rabbi listen to them when they are not known to most people even? (Does every last rov know who Tropper or Rabbi Eisenstein are? It's doubtful, but with each PR piece and EJF infomercial their names are getting around. Is that the way Charedi rabbis normally get their names known and views across?)
About Rabbi Bomzer:
The letter speaks for itself and makes some noteworthy points worth taking to heart. Rabbi Bomzer is facing aserious situation and has a lot of thinking to do. But it's doubtful he will be intimidated by these strong arm tactics. He is too battle-hardended and too established for that.
But since this is now a very public matter concerning the reputation, credentials, actions, and alleged problems with a notable Orthodox rabbi, one should also present a somewhat broader picture of the man ("justice should not only be done, it should be seen to be done") in the context of his life and not make it appear as Tropper wants to do to distract from his own problems, that Bomzer is the "most wicked man on Earth" (which he is certainly not) while Tropper is the new "rashkebehag" lo aleinu!
Simply by Googling:
*Bomzer is retired from the pulpit he held at the Young Israel of Ocean Parkway and he teaches Talmud at YU. He is a talmid chochem and not the cynical dope Roni/Tropper portrays him as. He was the long time rabbi of the Young Israel of Ocean Parkway that is right next door to the Mirrer Yeshiva on Ocean Parkway.
*He is one of the late Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik's oldest disciples.
*Bomzer refers to himself as a Rosh Yeshiva at Yeshiva University, as in this VIN article, Jan 04, 2009 also from from The Jewish Press.
*He is listed on YU's site as "Herbert W. Bomzer, Assistant Professor of Talmud. BA, MA, EdD, Yeshiva University; Ordination, Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary."
*He is one of the heads of IGUD HARABONIM (a somewhat pro-Lubavitch rabbinical association,) see Vos Iz Nei'as: "At the last Igud Rosh Chodesh meeting, President of the Board of Rabbi of Flatbush, Rabbi Herbert W. Bomzer, noted that he has served as a congregational rabbi for decades, as well as a long-serving rosh yeshiva at Yeshiva University..."
*He is noted as: "Rabbi Dr. Herbert W. (Chaim Zev) Bomzer, Pres., Vaad HaRabonim of Flatbush."
*Bomzer went to the the last Lubavitcher Rebbe's farbrengens where the Rebbe would sometimes greet him publicly. See "Rabbi Herbert Bomzer, in his 1996 book The Chosen Road, chronicles the trials and tribulations, the courage and the sacrifices of many of these gerim (converts). There was no one more qualified for this task than the author, since for over three decades, by request of the Rabbinical Council of America and with the blessing of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, he has been involved in every aspect of gerus, from the initial, hesitant request by the applicant, through the intense learning process to the final joyous moment of acceptance into the Jewish world..."
"Bomzer has also published a few books. "The Kolel in America" (was his PhD disertation in 1984 published by Shengold Publishers. 1986) and "The Chosen Road" (Shengold Publishers, 1996) review and more about Bomzer from The Jewish Press: "An anecdotal approach to explaining the process of conversion to Judaism, by one of the leading rabbis in the U.S...stories of geyrut (conversion) experiences in the lives of people who have joined the Jewish faith. The stories include the experiences of people from the former Soviet Union, from Israel, and the United States." *Bomzer has been involved in the conversions of some very notable converts see The Jewish Week in 1999 also at Torah Judaism
This gives some broader sense of Bomzer. He is in atough situation with the Charedim but that does not mean that he does not deserve his day in court to give his view (which so far, no poster here has really done.)
For the record:
*I have never met Bomzer and I have nothing to do with him.
*I have never sent anyone to him for conversions and I have absolutely no official or unofficial connections with him.
What empty hogwash. The signatories are vaaried leading rabbonim and dayonim from a wide spectrum and the put their name to this notice and warning. They state that they know they are signing above their signature. They affirm that his conversions are menignless. that they know of his fake sheninigans. All your fluff and puff about "vaad" nd "beis din" bobeh maysses does not hold water in halacha. We have rabbis signing that they rule that his convesions are fradulent. All your bobeh wikipedias and amrican law and acrobatics and your fake and dishonest stance of defending him and attacking tropper at the same time...will not erase a simple fact:
bomzer brings goyim into klal yisroel. his illustrous past notwitsstanding does not help the situation. The charge is what the nidon presently at stake. All haskomos in the world will not validate covnersions without kabbalat hamitzvot, for money. And all your acrobatics about rtopper's false mssianism and other irrational outbursts will not raise his crime to breining GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL; AND BOMZER BRINGS GOYIM TO KLAL YISROEL AND is also assisted by anyone who helps him directly or indirectly (by sending him covnerts for "$$$ for this or that holy ause). All are oyver in lifney iver loy titen michshol!
Because R' Bomzer supposedly does fake conversions, that means R' Tropper can do whatever he wants as long as it's not explicitly against halacha and he declares it to be not as bad as what R' Bomzer's doing? R' Bomzer's supposed actions justify proselytizing Gentiles, maintaining that anybody who holds the world's older than 6000 years is unworthy for the dayanus, holding that gentiles who think that Chazal made a mistake should not be converted [!?]...and these standards must be implemented universally?! (I vote/request that RaP's last comment be promoted to a post)
Because R' Bomzer supposedly does fake conversions, that means R' Tropper can do whatever he wants as long as it's not explicitly against halacha and he declares it to be not as bad as what R' Bomzer's doing?"
I'll try to explain:
1)Those who are so worried about non-halachik infractions(about conversions;) should rile up when the real crimes are performed. When those would do so, we would know that they are motivated to remedy the ills and not for ulterior motives. The irony is Baruch, that not only, don't we see them protesting the real crimes of bringing goyim into klal yisroel; but they actually defended the Rabbis who performed this act. (See for example RaP defending HB doe converting a shikssah so that her boss can marry her and he can abandon his wife and children. See him defending Bomzer for taking 10,000$ for a conversion. See him turning his chollent acrobatics to defend Bomzer from a clear notinification and warning by leading Dayanim and Rabbis about the false conversions performed by Bomzer).
2) Most importantly: Bomze'rs actions (and actually there are MANY such fake dayanim who convert for a business or at least do not require the convert to commit to observe torah and mtizvot)is one of the main reasons that EJf was created: to establish a STANDARD of conversion that up till now was neglected by the general public. The magnitude of the crime by the fake dayanim and the tragedy of bringing goyim into klal yisroel is a "Chet chamur" (very severe sin) and our Rabbis establish in our tradition, that at times it is permissible and at times commanded to make a "shet kal" to prevent and stop a chet chamur! SO, if what is needed to prevent the prospective converts not to turn to the fake rabbis but to turn to the kosher ones' and to the kosher standard is a chet kal, of seeking those sincere one to follow the right path and maknug sure that those who are not aware of the right path at least know that the wrong path does not fulfill their desire to become jewish, so be it. Our illustirous rabbis in the past centuries have ruled that one may perhaps violate some of the rabbinical prohibitions (like for instance: not to convert someone for the sake of marriage) as long as the person would commit himself to live a jewish life, ie. a life dictated by the code of jewish law!
"*He is one of the heads of IGUD HARABONIM (a somewhat pro-Lubavitch rabbinical association,) see Vos Iz Nei'as: "At the last Igud Rosh Chodesh meeting, President of the Board of Rabbi of Flatbush, Rabbi Herbert W. Bomzer, noted that he has served as a congregational rabbi for decades, as well as a long-serving rosh yeshiva at Yeshiva University..."
R. Bomzer is not a head of the Igud, and even if he was, the Igud is not much to write home about these days, it's pretty small, has greatly declined since its glory days years ago.
Roni says (falsely) about my comments, and it just shows how below the belt Roni/Troper work and manipulate:
"See for example RaP defending HB doe converting a shikssah so that her boss can marry her and he can abandon his wife and children."
RaP: Nowhere did I defend Bomzer for "converting a shiksa" -- I would not stoop so low, maybe Troper knows about shiksas more than most people to talk like this about anyone, but nowhere have I ever stooped (like some posters have done) to point out personal accusations at Troper from his failed marriages and other well known incidents.
Roni/Troper doesn't have the first clue about civilized debating because as is well known, Roni/Troper comes on hard and heavy with "Halachik" phraseology to cover up his own "crimes" (to use his lingo) of reaching out to convert potentially two billion goyim, and their spouses naturally, so that makes it four billion goyim that will follow Roni/Troper and ejf, and they call other people names for pointing out their stupidity.
"See him defending Bomzer for taking 10,000$ for a conversion."
RaP: Nope, nowhere have I defended Bomzer because he takes money. By the way, what is the proof for the allegation? What is the "standard fee" for a conversion program worldwide in any case? I have absolutely no idea what it costs or what potential geirim have to pay their teachers and rabbis for all the education and services to educate them. And talk of alleged corruption, it's a joke that poster Roni/Troper makes fun of Bomzer for taking money when dayanim of the best and finest batei din are known to be held captive of very wealthy men when they support them in either obtaining a coerced get or refusing to give one timeously.
There is plenty of corruption in Batei Din unfortunately as most people are aware, and it's not just in gerus or gitin. But why go down this path as it detracts from the main point about what Troper and his ejf are up to with all their kuntzim as they yell at Bomzer and the world.
"See him turning his chollent acrobatics to defend Bomzer from a clear notinification and warning by leading Dayanim and Rabbis about the false conversions performed by Bomzer"
RaP: Nope, I asked basic and clear-cut questions. Anybody has this right. It's a free world. There is no kefia datit or a Charedi world government led by Troper yet and may Hashem prevent it from ever happening unless it's the true Mashiach.
We know that the BADATS represents the well-established Eidah Hachareidis and that Rav Shternbuch was chosen by them to sit on their long-established communal Bais Din (the BADATS), but who exactly does Vaad HaOlami represent if you subtract the holy name of Rav Eliashiv? Which community? These are fair questions and if you are going to go to war with the MO world by picking on a man like Bomzer who is connected to the Modern Orthodox, YU, RCA, Young Israel world (and it's NOT a "chollent" to point that out) then let's hear who the Vaad Haolami is talking for.
Rav Reuven Feinstein works in Staten Island, NY and has a home on the Lower East Side in Manhattan. Is that who he is talking for? Troper lives in Monsey, do theall support him in his ejf escapades? Rav Eisenstein is from Chicago and Israel, do the Jews of Chicago and all Israel support Rav Eisenstein like Rav Shternbuch and the BADATS are fully supported by the well-estbalished and well known and well defined Eidah HaChareidis of Yerushalayim that has world-wide recognition and support among the most serious Charedi and Chasidic sectors.
As for the rest of Roni/Troper's point 2, it's all a well-oiled and well practiced argument that he keeps repeating like a mantra as if he thinks that simply because he is saying it over in, oh so lomdishe loshen, and repeatedly yet at high volume as Roni/Troper like to yell and not talk like mentshen, that people don't see through the falshkeit and boich sevora that it is?
Such things require greater clarifications from BIGGER gedolim to say such things (P.S. Troper and Rav Eisenstein are NOT gedolim, they are rabbis) and even if Rav Eliashiv, or Rav Shteiman or Rav Kanievsky would dare to say such a chutzpadikke chiddush, which THEY DO NOT, we would say to them, you need to be bigger gedolim to come up with such "heterim" to "mekarev goyim" hitched to Yidden.
One would need at least an EARLY ACHARON, like the RAMO or the MECHABER or the MAHARAL or the RAV's SHULCHAN ORUCH to say EXPLICITLY what Roni/Troper is trying to shove down everyone's throat as he intimidates people with the usual verbal bullying, but since NOT A SINGLE ACHARON or even anyone has written to come up with a "heter" for ejf.
It's just the cowardly anonymous Roni/Troper who is trying to shove and sneak in a "halachic" ruling That nobody has explicitly staed nor endorsed in any way) through the back door of a blog like this, shame on him!
NO-ONE, in all of Jewish history, has ever dared to say what Roni/Troper is saying, and certainly no gadol today would dare say with a full mouth and with bak tzener such a ludicrous "heter" and "sevora" to justify the luring and preslytization of pure goyim, we are fully justified to tell post Roni/Troper to go fly a kite, because you are being megaleh ponim baTorah SHELO Kehalacha and you are guilty of apikursus and you should be put in cherem and as the BADATS has rightfully called for, Roni/Troper must be stopped dead in tracks and ejf and its entrapments must be stopped and all yerei shomayaim should stay away from it like the poison that it is! "Chet chammur" and "chet kal" Feh! A nechtigen tog, or as they say in Americanese, go tell it to the Marines.
Roni says (falsely) about my comments, and it just shows how below the belt Roni/Troper work and manipulate:
"See for example RaP defending HB doe converting a shikssah so that her boss can marry her and he can abandon his wife and children."
RaP: Nowhere did I defend Bomzer for "converting a shiksa" -- I would not stoop so low, maybe Troper knows about shiksas more than most people to talk like this about anyone, but nowhere have I ever stooped (like some posters have done) to point out personal accusations at Troper from his failed marriages and other well known incidents.
Bomzer is the one who converts shikasse secretaries! and you go on about Tropper. And isten now, anytime you will mention what others have posted about tropper's failed marriages and you flase honesty about not mentioning it and yet you mention it now! and add falsely "marriages" will bring about the Bomzer Mondrowitz accomplice where Bomzer defended him the known child molester!!!
" Roni/Troper doesn't have the first clue about civilized debating because as is well known, Roni/Troper comes on hard and heavy with "Halachik" phraseology to cover up his own "crimes" (to use his lingo) of reaching out to convert potentially two billion goyim, and their spouses naturally, so that makes it four billion goyim that will follow Roni/Troper and ejf, and they call other people names for pointing out their stupidity."
Here the chollent maker starts again with his farkrmute irrational treatises with no subsntace whatsoever. As if Trooper already covnerted millions of people druing the past four years. RAP/BOmzer bring you out to la la land and ferdrey you a kop to make tropper sound as the serial murderer. You are totally out of any proportion' espeically when you pooh pooh a man who bought lots of goyim into klal yisroel adn hail, a man who lives in olam hopuch (whose only rationale for such a distorted farkrumte view is the self motivation, where he encountered EJf alerting candidates (who would go to his buddy HB and split the pie) that a conversion without kabbalt hamitzvot or performed by those who do not ask for it is meaningless) or another self motivation where $$$ comes in the way of rational thinknig and distorts the normalcy of one's perception ubilshon hakossuv "ki hashochad yeaver"...
"See him defending Bomzer for taking 10,000$ for a conversion."
"RaP: Nope, nowhere have I defended Bomzer because he takes money. By the way, what is the proof for the allegation? What is the "standard fee" for a conversion program worldwide in any case? I have absolutely no idea what it costs or what potential geirim have to pay their teachers and rabbis for all the education and services to educate them."
You did pooh pooh the criticism of someone for a case where BOmzer took this amount of money.
And what are you insinuating now, that 10,000$ is not an exorbitant amount of money for conversion???
": And talk of alleged corruption, it's a joke that poster Roni/Troper makes fun of Bomzer for taking money when dayanim of the best and finest batei din are known to be held captive of very wealthy men when they support them in either obtaining a coerced get or refusing to give one timeously"
talk about chollent!?!: Are you now defending bomzer's conversion because you other batey dinim (not ttropper's conversion program) take lots of money for dinay torah?!? or gittin? Does that make his intake of goyim anymore Jewish??? For the time being Tropper's daysnim do NOT take 10,000$ for a gerut. Bomzer occasinally does. Even 3,600$ is an exxageration. Even 1,800$ is an exxageration. HOw much mroe so 10 or 18 thousand dollars. And the discussion hewre is the intake of goyim! A dayan who takes exorbitant money for his gerut; his conversion are NULL AND VOID!!
"There is plenty of corruption in Batei Din unfortunately as most people are aware, and it's not just in gerus or gitin."
non sequitor! as usual by the Rap/Bomzer chollent maker. Does thsat kasher bomzer's gerut?
"But why go down this path as it detracts from the main point about what Troper and his ejf are up to with all their kuntzim as they yell at Bomzer and the world".
EJF's kuntzim does NOT invalidate the gerus performed by his batey dinim, as long as his batey dinim make sure that the candidate accepts to commit to mitzvot which they do! (and according to hater Rap/bomzer with "holier-than-thou requirements, at the end of the day they require kabbalt hamitzvot) and as long as they do not ask for exorbitant amount of m oney. IF they will you will be entitled to make the same criticism as I make toward bomzer. The poimnt: The criticism leveled is about goyim that Bomzer brings which is the REAL DANGER! Ejf's batey dinim do not carry this crime.
"See him turning his chollent acrobatics to defend Bomzer from a clear notinification and warning by leading Dayanim and Rabbis about the false conversions performed by Bomzer"
" RaP: Nope, I asked basic and clear-cut questions. Anybody has this right. It's a free world. There is no kefia datit or a Charedi world government led by Troper yet and may Hashem prevent it from ever happening unless it's the true Mashiach."
AS if those wuestions, touch about the core of the issue: that bomzer is a "converter" that brings goyim to klal yisroel. No amount of "questions" will touch the fact that many rabbis signed their name to condemntation of the nature that bomzer's conversions are without kabbalat mitzvot and that he brings goyim to kal yisorel. Any "question" that vades this issue is a veiled defnse of this fake converter.
" We know that the BADATS represents the well-established Eidah Hachareidis and that Rav Shternbuch was chosen by them to sit on their long-established communal Bais Din (the BADATS)"
Tey do not represent charedi positions on issues other kashrut! IT is very well known in many issues, like voting in israeli elections and a multitude of issues.
" but who exactly does Vaad HaOlami represent if you subtract the holy name of Rav Eliashiv? Which community? "
Name sof chashuver and prominent rabbis and dayanim from various palces is what counts in this letter and you have people lik Rav MOshe SOloveitchik adn Rav WEiss condemning Bomzer.
"These are fair questions and if you are going to go to war with the MO world by picking on a man like Bomzer who is connected to the Modern Orthodox, YU, RCA, Young Israel world "
Straw man and non sequitor: the rabbis clearly stated in this letter the allegation that they charge him for bringing goyim into klal yisroel, he does reequire kabbalat mitzvot and takes exorbitant money for his "conversions". Nothing to do with MO YU RCA. IT is a "Red herring" to borrow your phrase and a chollenmt to mux this in the discussion. You are a champion in making thes chollents and red herrings. Look they attack also Yehuda Stein. He is probably a "haredi" and they attacak in the same letteR!
"(and it's NOT a "chollent" to point that out) then let's hear who the Vaad Haolami is talking for."
The people who signed the ltetter, the choshuver Rabbonim speak for themmselves (more than RaP speaks for BOmzer).
" Rav Reuven Feinstein works in Staten Island, NY and has a home on the Lower East Side in Manhattan. Is that who he is talking for?"
AS if you ask a tiyuvta?! RRF canot convene with VH for Gerut because he is here and LT is there and RE is from chicago does that mean what? What is your point? THe rabbis who signed on the letter speak for themselves. They hav heard evidence anough to charge Bomzer with these crimes. They rabbis put their name that he is unfiit to a gerut dayan. PEriod. All cholents wil not erase this FACT!
"and the BADATS are fully supported by the well-estbalished and well known and well defined Eidah HaChareidis of Yerushalayim that has world-wide recognition and support among the most serious Charedi and Chasidic sectors".
YEs, but Rav Reuven FEinstein and Rav Eisenstein and Dayan Ehrentrau and Rav Kook disagree respectfully with them! on this issue!
"As for the rest of Roni/Troper's point 2, it's all a well-oiled and well practiced argument that he keeps repeating like a mantra as if he thinks that simply because he is saying it over in, oh so lomdishe loshen, and repeatedly yet at high volume as Roni/Troper like to yell and not talk like mentshen, that people don't see through the falshkeit and boich sevora that it is?"
And your "chollent" point to address the points made IS??? " Such things require greater clarifications from BIGGER gedolim to say such things (P.S. Troper and Rav Eisenstein are NOT gedolim, they are rabbis) and even if Rav Eliashiv, or Rav Shteiman or Rav Kanievsky would dare to say such a chutzpadikke chiddush, "
HERE AGAIN THE MASTER OF CHOLLENT AND HYPERBOLE! If they would say this chiddush, this RaP is going to call them "chutzpahdike" chiddush but his bobeh chiddushim about bomzer are not chutzpahdik! merida against shulchan oruch?!?
"which THEY DO NOT, we would say to them, you need to be bigger gedolim to come up with such "heterim" to "mekarev goyim" hitched to Yidden".
The master of false alarming statements (and pooh pooh real alarming crimes): No one claims the heter to mekarev goyim; the heter is to mekarev THE JEWISH SPOUSE get it already! (and do not make yourself as if you score a point by portraying the issue in false terms).
" One would need at least an EARLY ACHARON, like the RAMO or the MECHABER or the MAHARAL or the RAV's SHULCHAN ORUCH to say EXPLICITLY what Roni/Troper is trying to shove down everyone's throat as he intimidates people with the usual verbal bullying, but since NOT A SINGLE ACHARON or even anyone has written to come up with a "heter" for ejf."
Rav Elyashiv! stated so (as Rav Zilberstein wrote in the teshuva printed in Netzach Yisroel), Rav Reuven Feinstein agrees with this, Rav Wosner who allows his talmid Rav Stern to be a partner in the organization, Rav Shechter who stated that such an organization is long overdue (and he knew at the time that they encourage intermarried couples to convert halachikally), and the big chochom RAP tells them that if they say this it is "Chutzpah" for them to say. THe mechutzaf par excellence!!
" It's just the cowardly anonymous Roni/Troper who is trying to shove and sneak in a "halachic" ruling That nobody has explicitly staed nor endorsed in any way) through the back door of a blog like this, shame on him!"
THEY ENDORSED WITH DEEDS! Rav FEinstein is part of the halachik advisory of the organization. So is Dayan Ehrentrau and so other mentioned earlier.
" NO-ONE, in all of Jewish history, has ever dared to say what Roni/Troper is saying, and certainly no gadol today would dare say with a full mouth and with bak tzener such a ludicrous "heter" and "sevora" to justify the luring and preslytization of pure goyim, "
the irrational hyperbolic chollent maker at his best! Tell me again wHERE IS THE ISSUR in shulchan oruch to prosetyze reMOH? mECHABER? At best "we do not do not do it" by Aruch Hashluchan! nothing in shulchanoruch, REmo, Taz, Schach and other nossey kelim!
"we are fully justified to tell post Roni/Troper to go fly a kite, because you are being megaleh ponim baTorah SHELO Kehalacha and you are guilty of apikursus and you should be put in cherem"
TEll me without chollent what is the "giluy panim baorah shelopy kahalacha", But i'll tell you that YOU are megaleh ponim batorah sheloy kahalacha by creating halochos in torah where there are not, and by defending a person who brin gs goyim to klal yisroel converting shikssah so their boss marries them, defending his conversions to good ones when they are goyim gemurim! you assist in bringing goyim into klal yisroel, so you should be put in cherem and be punished to eat the chollent that you make. as long as you do not poison klal yisroel by assisting a serial manufacter of goyim in klal yisroel!
Roni said: "Bomzer is the one who converts shikasse secretaries! and you go on about Tropper."
RaP: Bomzer may be bad, but tropere is worse, just look at the ads that ejf is now taking out, via the "freelance writers" inviting one third of the human race that "may be Jewish" according to the latest articles, inviting over two BILLION gentiles to think of joining up via ejf and becoming holier-than-thou "Halachic Jews" -- and you expect Torah Jews to swallow that just because troper is now claiming that he frightens the heck out of new converts via ejf never to become gentiles again which is not working either. The whole ejf operation and troper's krumme "learned defenses" of it are total shams and a disaster for Klal Yisroel if they well ever be allowed to come into fruition.
"And isten now, anytime you will mention what others have posted about tropper's failed marriages and you flase honesty about not mentioning it and yet you mention it now! and add falsely "marriages" will bring about the Bomzer Mondrowitz accomplice where Bomzer defended him the known child molester!!!"
RaP: And that will just be another example of how Roni/Troper widen the red herring argument and throw in everything including the kitchen sink as long as they don't have to answer OFFICIALLY on EJF stationary, not just on this blog with nice debates with Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn/da'as torah, but when will Troper/ejf send a real response to the BADATS and to Rav Shternbuch which should be the real address of Troper/ejf's responses and not on this blog.
And whwile they are about it, when will Troper/ejf get a full written haskoma from its rabbinic sponsors instead of the insults to others and the pilpulim to tie down Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn that still don't answer the basic questions of why Troper/ejf don't have a written haskoma from anyone and why they do not respond in a bekovadikke and suitable manner to the BADATS, just as Rav Sherman had at least the brains to write a full-bodied teshuva and response to smack down Rabbi Drukman (even if it was done in a rather brutal way, without giving Rabbi Drukman a chance to present his views in full) at least Rav Sherman came up with a written teshuva unlike Troper and ejf who leave it up to blogger Roni to hack in kop and make a total nuisance of himself, never giving an inch, like a zombie in motion.
"As if Trooper already covnerted millions of people druing the past four years."
RaP: Yeah, and now according to the latest ejf PR hype, they are hoping, planning and proselytizing to at least two BILLION people who may be Jewish on Earth and then they have spouses so that makes it four billion that ejf is gunning for, and all this is in writing as Roni/Troper tries to distract people with rants and raves against this and that or whatnot. Sheer chutzpah and madness.
"RAP/BOmzer bring you out to la la land and ferdrey you a kop to make tropper sound as the serial murderer."
RaP: Twist it anyway you want and come up with the worst descriptions, like "serial murderer" (by the way how do we know he isn't one?) in Halacha someone who shames his fellow man is like a murderer and Troper has no qualms and no no hesitation in humiliating and shaming people that is no different to murder according to chazal.
"You are totally out of any proportion' espeically when you pooh pooh a man who bought lots of goyim into klal yisroel adn hail, a man who lives in olam hopuch (whose only rationale for such a distorted farkrumte view is the self motivation, where he encountered EJf alerting candidates (who would go to his buddy HB and split the pie) that a conversion without kabbalt hamitzvot or performed by those who do not ask for it is meaningless) or another self motivation where $$$ comes in the way of rational thinknig and distorts the normalcy of one's perception ubilshon hakossuv "ki hashochad yeaver"..."
RaP: I don't poo-poo nor Hail anybody, but ANY man is entitled to a fair trial. I have cited many postives about Troper over the last year on this blog, in his kiruv work and I have agreed with his hashkofa against Slifkin (but not in his deceptive methods to attack Slifkin) and since Roni/Troper is subjecting Bomzer to an online execution without a fair trial, even the guilty Nazis at Nuremburg were given a fair trial, it is only fair and just that as many facts about Bomzer be laid on the table so that people get to see a fuller picture and not just the evil "criminal" caricature that poster Roni/Troper like to willfully depict in smear-tactics fashion. This is Torah, one may say? Is it only about a merciless Halacha, how about the derech eretz kadma leTorah aspect of Torah to go with it and that is not evident in anything poster Roni or Rabbi tropper do or say nor is it evident in the style and tone of this purported "letter of rebuke" that fails because it is assumes that everyone will buy into its fear-and-smear tactics that Troper favors and that just plain stinks, without any great lomdus or chochma, it's a rotten fish as it stands and these learned rabbis will have to learn to do things in a more mentsclichdikke an derech eretdikke way (the USA and New York City are NOT like the back alleys of Yerushalayim where people can be bumped off in the middle of the night with false posts and hateful and hate-filled pashkvillim) and not like the Troper bull in a Chinashop non-methodology
Where did Troper learn all this kind of dirty below the belt street thuggery excuse for a machlokes?
Which yeshiva taught Troper to behave like such a boor?
Who was Troper's rebbe in intimidation and heavy-handedness?
Was it in Telz or by Rav Sheinberg where Troper learned?
It seems like a mighty great disturbance, which is what Troper constantly causes as he careens through life and it is neither pleasent nor pleasing.
Remember: Drecheha darchei no'am? and "...ohev shalom and rodef sholom"? instead of Troper's constant verbal violence and bruising hateful attacks on people that he hates in serial fashion indeed, too many to be mentioned, MO rabbis, Chabad, Aish HaTorah even the BADATS as long as they are not what "he" wants like a kind in a state of perpetual tantrums.
Emotionally Troper is probabaly not past his "terrible twos" and he needs to grow up or the world will come crashing down on him even more than it has so far!
"You did pooh pooh the criticism of someone for a case where BOmzer took this amount of money."
RaP: You jump from "defending" to "poo-pooing" and that's quite different when in fact I did neither. My main point is to always see things in context and what I said was that Bomzer is not the cause of all these people coming to him. He is not the source for assimiation and for the breakdowns of marriages in the MO or Syrian communities where they unfortunately play fast and loose with their morals (Charedim are not innocent either...).
These people come to his door and he must choose what to do with some of them, I would not want to be in his shoes. That is why I have never been involved with conversions but that does not mean that one should resort to unfair tactics to dirty and smear people Troper decided are on his hit list. Someone should defang Troper and send him back to his humble roots and yeshiva in Monsey and not help him come up with his grandiose ideas and defend them with pilpulim shel hevel about how it's quite ok al pi Torah, lo aleinu, to now recruit goyim to Klal Yisrole r"l by the billions "because nowhere in Halacha does it forbid it" about as krum and stupid as you can get!
"And what are you insinuating now, that 10,000$ is not an exorbitant amount of money for conversion???"
RaP: You tell me, I have no idea. But evidently the Troper/Kaplan duo think it's ok to shell out tens of millions to advertise and have PR and sponsor fully catered events to wine and dine goyim hitched to Jews to proselytize to them hoping they will convert. The very idea stinks and is stupid too!
"Are you now defending bomzer's conversion because you other batey dinim (not ttropper's conversion program) take lots of money for dinay torah?!? or gittin? Does that make his intake of goyim anymore Jewish??? For the time being Tropper's daysnim do NOT take 10,000$ for a gerut. Bomzer occasinally does. Even 3,600$ is an exxageration. Even 1,800$ is an exxageration. HOw much mroe so 10 or 18 thousand dollars. And the discussion hewre is the intake of goyim! A dayan who takes exorbitant money for his gerut; his conversion are NULL AND VOID!!"
RaP: The only point, is that Bomzer is not the only person with a beit din allegedly on the take. The whole system is riddled with problems like this. I am not justifying anything.
"non sequitor! as usual by the Rap/Bomzer chollent maker. Does thsat kasher bomzer's gerut?"
RaP: Ah, you will never tire of bringing up Bomzer will you? It is so tiresome to talk to someone who is arguing so obssessively, like trying to have a debate with an accuser in the Inquisition or in one of Stalin's Bolshevic courts who wishes to have only a one way "discussion" -- his way! Sorry, but a cultured and civilized debate with give and take does not go that way, but you wouldn't know would you, you are trained to only go for the kill with a leave no prisoners approach. Nuts!
"EJF's kuntzim does NOT invalidate the gerus performed by his batey dinim, as long as his batey dinim make sure that the candidate accepts to commit to mitzvot which they do! (and according to hater Rap/bomzer with "holier-than-thou requirements, at the end of the day they require kabbalt hamitzvot) and as long as they do not ask for exorbitant amount of m oney. IF they will you will be entitled to make the same criticism as I make toward bomzer. The poimnt: The criticism leveled is about goyim that Bomzer brings which is the REAL DANGER! Ejf's batey dinim do not carry this crime."
RaP: Do not be a selective debater and hence a liar! ejf's PLAN is to bring BILLIONS of "converted" goyim into Klal Yisroel, forget the so-called "ejf batei dinim", they don't have any really, just one hired-gun for the job in Monsey under Troper's thumb. This is the Roni chollent maker at HIS best making up things that are not true. Troper went around convincing batei din to agree to be on his list but he does not run them and they are not answerable to him or to ejf in any way. Such hogwash Roni likes to sell as concocted "Torah misinai" and he thinks people are stupid as long as he can scream and shout "Bomzer, Bomzer" like "liar, liar" and drey Rabbi Eidensohn a kop with his Poilishe pilpulim shel hevel!!
"AS if those wuestions, touch about the core of the issue: that bomzer is a "converter" that brings goyim to klal yisroel. No amount of "questions" will touch the fact that many rabbis signed their name to condemntation of the nature that bomzer's conversions are without kabbalat mitzvot and that he brings goyim to kal yisorel. Any "question" that vades this issue is a veiled defnse of this fake converter."
RaP: Call Bomzer any name you want, but the group must identify itself and set up its credibility clearly BEFORE they come to condemn anyone and not act like a bunch of seeming mercenaries out on a duck shoot. Justice must not only be done, it must also be seen to be done, but obviosly you skipped that lesson when they were teaching you character assassination in the dark side alleys you grew up in.
"We know that the BADATS represents the well-established Eidah Hachareidis and that Rav Shternbuch was chosen by them to sit on their long-established communal Bais Din (the BADATS)"
Tey do not represent charedi positions on issues other kashrut! IT is very well known in many issues, like voting in israeli elections and a multitude of issues."
RaP: So now troper is the liberal Zionist as well. What a joke. Troper is as Charedi, if not more in his positions than the Eidah Hachareidis and by his example of ignoring them he is setting the WORST example to all his disciples and followers that you don't have to listen to bais din, even if it's the BADATS itself! And the BADATS deals with lots more than kashrus issues, a claim that belittles them, like saying that Troper only deals with "baal teshuvas and geirim" so what makes him so great?
"but who exactly does Vaad HaOlami represent if you subtract the holy name of Rav Eliashiv? Which community? "
Name sof chashuver and prominent rabbis and dayanim from various palces is what counts in this letter and you have people lik Rav MOshe SOloveitchik adn Rav WEiss condemning Bomzer."
RAP: Please write out their names IN FULL, what they head, and who they represent. That is a simple request. Thank you.
"These are fair questions and if you are going to go to war with the MO world by picking on a man like Bomzer who is connected to the Modern Orthodox, YU, RCA, Young Israel world "
Straw man and non sequitor: the rabbis clearly stated in this letter the allegation that they charge him for bringing goyim into klal yisroel, he does reequire kabbalat mitzvot and takes exorbitant money for his "conversions". Nothing to do with MO YU RCA. IT is a "Red herring" to borrow your phrase and a chollenmt to mux this in the discussion. You are a champion in making thes chollents and red herrings. Look they attack also Yehuda Stein. He is probably a "haredi" and they attacak in the same letteR!"
RaP: Oh, so they can be talking about Bomzer and then throw in names like Yeedel Stein and anyone else they don't like. Everyone has people they dislike and at this rate we are going to be seeing lots more of these kinds of stupid and vengeful letters that attack people from only one point of viuew without giving the full picture. Let's hope the dayan ha'emes works better than that and not like a kangaroo court in all it's shameful "un-glory"!
"(and it's NOT a "chollent" to point that out) then let's hear who the Vaad Haolami is talking for."
The people who signed the ltetter, the choshuver Rabbonim speak for themmselves (more than RaP speaks for BOmzer)."
RaP: To repeat: Who EXACTLY are the signers please? Could you write out their names in full, what their positions are, and who they represent. Thank you.
"Rav Reuven Feinstein works in Staten Island, NY and has a home on the Lower East Side in Manhattan. Is that who he is talking for?"
AS if you ask a tiyuvta?! RRF canot convene with VH for Gerut because he is here and LT is there and RE is from chicago does that mean what? What is your point? THe rabbis who signed on the letter speak for themselves. They hav heard evidence anough to charge Bomzer with these crimes. They rabbis put their name that he is unfiit to a gerut dayan. PEriod. All cholents wil not erase this FACT!"
RaP: And yours is a pretty neat chollent too. Now you are twisting and turning. What does it mean that since Rav Reuven Feinstein cannot make it to Israel they have to come up with half-measure nisht-debakenne michatvim shel hevel.
If Rav Eisenstein and his Va'ad wish to rule on an issue, as the BADATS did, let him convene his Bais Din and issue a ruling on the official Basi Din letterhead and not on from a stupid looking "P. O. Box" in Midwood, like Rav Meir Kahane z"l Haye"d, used to do with his JDL address sometimes.
Hopefully he will also allow Bomzer an opportunity to represent himself with a team of toanim so that true justice can be done. Hopefully the Sanhedrin will give everyone their day in court and will not turn out to be no better than Sharia law as practiced by the Ayatolas in Iran, lehavdil.
"and the BADATS are fully supported by the well-estbalished and well known and well defined Eidah HaChareidis of Yerushalayim that has world-wide recognition and support among the most serious Charedi and Chasidic sectors".
YEs, but Rav Reuven FEinstein and Rav Eisenstein and Dayan Ehrentrau and Rav Kook disagree respectfully with them! on this issue!"
RaP: No they don't! They have never issued EITHER a written support for Troper and ejf NOR have they ever responded to the BADATS or to Rav Shternbuch.
Only Troper hiding behind the multiple online shields of poster "roni/Roni" is now offering up his chollent of pilpulei shel hevel vesheker to defend himself when he sees he is in big trouble.
"Such things require greater clarifications from BIGGER gedolim to say such things (P.S. Troper and Rav Eisenstein are NOT gedolim, they are rabbis) and even if Rav Eliashiv, or Rav Shteiman or Rav Kanievsky would dare to say such a chutzpadikke chiddush, "
HERE AGAIN THE MASTER OF CHOLLENT AND HYPERBOLE! If they would say this chiddush, this RaP is going to call them "chutzpahdike" chiddush but his bobeh chiddushim about bomzer are not chutzpahdik! merida against shulchan oruch?!?"
RaP: I have made absolutely NO chiddushim about Bomzer except to request that his accusers identify themnselves in full, that Bomzer be given a chance to defend himself fully and that more details about who he is be made known and not just the accusations from one side that wishes he were dead ch"v, and that the letter is not clear enough because it is coming from a "P.O. Box" and not from an actual bais din when this is a matter of great gravity.
I am not defending anyone, but so far, we have not heard ANYTHING from Bomzer himself or a presentaion of his deeds by him and how he would defend himself halachically.
Bomzer is a talmid chochem and a teacher of Talmud and rosh yeshiva at YU, and it's known he received a mandate of sorts and public brochas from the last Lubavitcher Rebbe to do work in geirus, and he deserves at least some professional courtesy and not yellings and warnings and strong arm tactics that look like it's the mafia working and not a group of honored rabbis. This is not a "chiddush" it's just common sense that eludes Roni/Troper who thinks that the law of the jungle and brutal survival of the fittest is better.
"which THEY DO NOT, we would say to them, you need to be bigger gedolim to come up with such "heterim" to "mekarev goyim" hitched to Yidden".
The master of false alarming statements (and pooh pooh real alarming crimes): No one claims the heter to mekarev goyim; the heter is to mekarev THE JEWISH SPOUSE get it already! (and do not make yourself as if you score a point by portraying the issue in false terms)."
RaP: Such bald faced lies. Don't you read your own ejf news and material? they are now calling out to a third of humanity, two billion people and they will have spouses so that makes it four billion people to come forth and convert via EJF proselytizing. Don' underestimate the effects of egomania, delusions of grandeur and the magnetic tug of false messianism.
"One would need at least an EARLY ACHARON, like the RAMO or the MECHABER or the MAHARAL or the RAV's SHULCHAN ORUCH to say EXPLICITLY what Roni/Troper is trying to shove down everyone's throat as he intimidates people with the usual verbal bullying, but since NOT A SINGLE ACHARON or even anyone has written to come up with a "heter" for ejf."
Rav Elyashiv! stated so (as Rav Zilberstein wrote in the teshuva printed in Netzach Yisroel), Rav Reuven Feinstein agrees with this, Rav Wosner who allows his talmid Rav Stern to be a partner in the organization, Rav Shechter who stated that such an organization is long overdue (and he knew at the time that they encourage intermarried couples to convert halachikally), and the big chochom RAP tells them that if they say this it is "Chutzpah" for them to say. THe mechutzaf par excellence!!"
RaP: Yeah, right, sure, they "agree" saying that it's ok for ejf to recruit two BILLION goyim and their spouses to Yiddishkeit as long as Troper can fool, hoodwink and give out grants of ejf and Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation shochad, peshuto kemashmao, to the rabbonim (like a date-rape drug as it were) who come to eat Kaplan's forbidden fruit bait at the fancy-shmansy hotels all bedekked with his pilpulei shel sheker vehevel that are the worst of ejf/troper chollents, chazir treif ones!
"It's just the cowardly anonymous Roni/Troper who is trying to shove and sneak in a "halachic" ruling That nobody has explicitly staed nor endorsed in any way) through the back door of a blog like this, shame on him!"
THEY ENDORSED WITH DEEDS! Rav FEinstein is part of the halachik advisory of the organization. So is Dayan Ehrentrau and so other mentioned earlier."
RaP: Not enough! You seem to have no trouble being on the web and coming up with langge megilas to justify troper's new found love of gentiles hitched to Jews.
Is troper ill? Suffering from a choli hanefesh? He seems to be moshe to now mekarevim BILLIONS of goyim because he has some personal netia or deeper negius, one has to really start wondering with the way he is now mamash in love with the goyim that he is going all out to come up with all sorts of pipulei shel hevel to defend this hair-brained scheme that is of mortal danger to the Jews, all as he shouts "Bomzer, Bomzer" for a classical smokescreen to his ma'asim shel nevalah!
"NO-ONE, in all of Jewish history, has ever dared to say what Roni/Troper is saying, and certainly no gadol today would dare say with a full mouth and with bak tzener such a ludicrous "heter" and "sevora" to justify the luring and preslytization of pure goyim, "
the irrational hyperbolic chollent maker at his best! Tell me again wHERE IS THE ISSUR in shulchan oruch to prosetyze reMOH? mECHABER? At best "we do not do not do it" by Aruch Hashluchan! nothing in shulchanoruch, REmo, Taz, Schach and other nossey kelim!"
RaP: This just shows what a shotteh you are for all your citing of lomdishe sevoras. In Halacha it does NOT have to say that something is forbidden to make it so. Where does it say in the shulchan oruch that we are not allowed to rob banks or to torture people? That is the meaning of the old line, that: "where does it say in the Shulchan Oruch that I am not allowed to play with a white cat when I say over krias shema?" which you seemed to have not taken note of, while you were in thuggery school.
"we are fully justified to tell post Roni/Troper to go fly a kite, because you are being megaleh ponim baTorah SHELO Kehalacha and you are guilty of apikursus and you should be put in cherem"
TEll me without chollent what is the "giluy panim baorah shelopy kahalacha",
RaP: All of it. Every word that comes from you is sheker and dishonest. You only wish to bring billions of goyim via your cockmamy teitsch of "kabbalat ol mitzvot" and to make Troper the false messiah (like a Shabtai Tzvi and a Jesus figure r"l) over them all. This shall not come to be and it must be stopped!
"But i'll tell you that YOU are megaleh ponim batorah sheloy kahalacha by creating halochos in torah where there are not, and by defending a person who brin gs goyim to klal yisroel converting shikssah so their boss marries them, defending his conversions to good ones when they are goyim gemurim! you assist in bringing goyim into klal yisroel, so you should be put in cherem and be punished to eat the chollent that you make. as long as you do not poison klal yisroel by assisting a serial manufacter of goyim in klal yisroel!"
RaP: Whatever. You have no credibility left to say this so I will put it on my toilet paper. You/troper are the worst gangster possible, one who knows how to learn! And in such a case you have no ne'emanus inspite of trying to create your own retarded chollents to welcome billions of goyim into the Am Hashem! Shame on you!
Rap's chollent is getting more and more sour no meat there whatsoever long long long GORNISHT ZERO ZILCH
Roni said: "Bomzer is the one who converts shikasse secretaries! and you go on about Tropper."
"RaP: Bomzer may be bad, but tropere is worse, just look at the ads that ejf is now taking out, via the "freelance writers" inviting one third of the human race that "may be Jewish" according to the latest articles, inviting over two BILLION gentiles to think of joining up via ejf and becoming holier-than-thou "Halachic Jews" -- and you expect Torah Jews to swallow that just because troper is now claiming that he frightens the heck out of new converts via ejf never to become gentiles again which is not working either. The whole ejf operation and troper's krumme "learned defenses" of it are total shams and a disaster for Klal Yisroel if they well ever be allowed to come into fruition".
Roni: krummer shoteh: ALl these adds do not bring ONE GOY TO KLAL YISROEL; YOUR BUDDY BOMZER BROUGHT HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF GOYIM TO KLAL YISROEL! " "And isten now, anytime you will mention what others have posted about tropper's failed marriages and you flase honesty about not mentioning it and yet you mention it now! and add falsely "marriages" will bring about the Bomzer Mondrowitz accomplice where Bomzer defended him the known child molester!!!"
" RaP: And that will just be another example of how Roni/Troper widen the red herring argument and throw in everything including the kitchen sink as long as they don't have to answer OFFICIALLY on EJF stationary, not just on this blog with nice debates with Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn/da'as torah, but when will Troper/ejf send a real response to the BADATS and to Rav Shternbuch which should be the real address of Troper/ejf's responses and not on this blog".
DEAR KRUMMER: When you throw a red herring about his marriages I'll throw you about the character of your fake dayan a cover up for child molestation!
Their response is that they have clear haskomoh from many leading rabbis!
RAP" And whwile they are about it, when will Troper/ejf get a full written haskoma from its rabbinic sponsors instead of the insults to others and the pilpulim to tie down Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn that still don't answer the basic questions of why Troper/ejf don't have a written haskoma from anyone"
They have the clearest haskamah from many leading rabbiss,
"and why they do not respond in a bekovadikke and suitable manner to the BADATS',
They probably did!
" just as Rav Sherman had at least the brains to write a full-bodied teshuva and response to smack down Rabbi Drukman (even if it was done in a rather brutal way, without giving Rabbi Drukman a chance to present his views in full)"
This is the person who defends bomzer's fake gerut; wanting another chance to knock down another defender of gerut by attacking a rabbi who really fights for gerus and against fake gerut,
'"t least Rav Sherman came up with a written teshuva unlike Troper and ejf who leave it up to blogger Roni to hack in kop and make a total nuisance of himself, never giving an inch, like a zombie in motion".
Rap SAYS ZILCH AS USUAL! RAP do you am hooretz know how to respond to my halachik points? KMAT ZERO AND WITH FULL AM HORATZISHE SLOGAN STATEMENTS!
"As if Trooper already covnerted millions of people druing the past four years."
" RaP: Yeah, and now according to the latest ejf PR hype, they are hoping, planning and proselytizing to at least two BILLION people who may be Jewish on Earth and then they have spouses so that makes it four billion that ejf is gunning for, and all this is in writing as Roni/Troper tries to distract people with rants and raves against this and that or whatnot. Sheer chutzpah and madness'.
hE PROBBLY CONVERTED ALL SEVEN BILLION INHABITANTS JUST WAITING TO CONVERT rap.
"RAP/BOmzer bring you out to la la land and ferdrey you a kop to make tropper sound as the serial murderer."
" RaP: Twist it anyway you want and come up with the worst descriptions, like "serial murderer" (by the way how do we know he isn't one?) in Halacha someone who shames his fellow man is like a murderer and Troper has no qualms and no no hesitation in humiliating and shaming people that is no different to murder according to chazal"
YOU are the murderer who hAD NO QUALMS TO SHAME TROPPER FOR MONTHS AND MONTHS!
"You are totally out of any proportion' espeically when you pooh pooh a man who bought lots of goyim into klal yisroel adn hail, a man who lives in olam hopuch (whose only rationale for such a distorted farkrumte view is the self motivation, where he encountered EJf alerting candidates (who would go to his buddy HB and split the pie) that a conversion without kabbalt hamitzvot or performed by those who do not ask for it is meaningless) or another self motivation where $$$ comes in the way of rational thinknig and distorts the normalcy of one's perception ubilshon hakossuv "ki hashochad yeaver"..."
" RaP: I don't poo-poo nor Hail anybody, but ANY man is entitled to a fair trial. I have cited many postives about Troper over the last year on this blog, in his kiruv work and I have agreed with his hashkofa against Slifkin (but not in his deceptive methods to attack Slifkin) and since Roni/Troper is subjecting Bomzer to an online execution without a fair trial, even the guilty Nazis at Nuremburg were given a fair trial, it is only fair and just that as many facts about Bomzer be laid on the table so that people get to see a fuller picture and not just the evil "criminal" caricature that poster Roni/Troper like to willfully depict in smear-tactics fashion. This is Torah, one may say? Is it only about a merciless Halacha, how about the derech eretz kadma leTorah aspect of Torah to go with it and that is not evident in anything poster Roni or Rabbi tropper do or say nor is it evident in the style and tone of this purported "letter of rebuke" that fails because it is assumes that everyone will buy into its fear-and-smear tactics that Troper favors and that just plain stinks, without any great lomdus or chochma, it's a rotten fish as it stands and these learned rabbis will have to learn to do things in a more mentsclichdikke an derech eretdikke way (the USA and New York City are NOT like the back alleys of Yerushalayim where people can be bumped off in the middle of the night with false posts and hateful and hate-filled pashkvillim) and not like the Troper bull in a Chinashop non-methodology"
ZILOCH ZERO NADA !!!! Look at the letter by the leading RAbbis who condemn Bomzer for beinging goyim into klal yisroel!
" Was it in Telz or by Rav Sheinberg where Troper learned?"
RAP's lust for smeaaring other yiddishe insitutions!
RAP:" Emotionally Troper is probabaly not past his "terrible twos" and he needs to grow up or the world will come crashing down on him even more than it has so far!"
ZERO NADA ZILCH!!
"You did pooh pooh the criticism of someone for a case where BOmzer took this amount of money."
" RaP: You jump from "defending" to "poo-pooing" and that's quite different when in fact I did neither. My main point is to always see things in context and what I said was that Bomzer is not the cause of all these people coming to him. He is not the source for assimiation and for the breakdowns of marriages in the MO or Syrian communities where they unfortunately play fast and loose with their morals (Charedim are not innocent either...)."
yES, tROPPER IS SOURCE OF ALL INTERMARRIAGE WHEN HE DIDN'T BRING GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL AND WILL NOT CONVERT IF THEY DO NOT KEEP SHABBAT ETC. BUT HOLY BOMZER WHO CONVERTS SHIKSSAHS WHOSE BOSSES FFELL IN LOVE WITH THEM AND RAN AWAY FROM FAMILY HAS YOU RMERCY!! HOW FARAKRUMT YOU ARE!!
" These people come to his door and he must choose what to do with some of them,"
He must choose Shulchan Oruch! IF Torah does not allow them to be converted that is what he must do; not follow the $$$$ TRAIL!!!
rAp: "I would not want to be in his shoes. That is why I have never been involved with conversions but that does not mean that one should resort to unfair tactics to dirty and smear people Troper decided are on his hit list."
STOP SMEARING TROPPER!!
" Someone should defang Troper and send him back to his humble roots and yeshiva in Monsey and not help him come up with his grandiose ideas and "
STOP SMEARING TROPPER!
"defend them with pilpulim shel hevel"
YOU ARE ONE BIG AM HOORETZ NOT KNOWING TO MAKE ONE NORMAL RESPONSE TO A HALACHIK POINT WITHOUT RESORTING TO SLOGANS THAT WERE TAUGHT IN YOUR CIRCLES!!!
"about how it's quite ok al pi Torah, lo aleinu, to now recruit goyim to Klal Yisrole r"l by the billions "because nowhere in Halacha does it forbid it" about as krum and stupid as you can get!"
Krummer is the one who defends bringing goyim into klal yisroel but states that encouraging intermarried couples is halachiklally forbidden or makes the biggest deal out of it when Rav MOshe sys that even something that is written in shulchan aruch (not converting leshem ishut) is not a "issur barur". But i know that in your circles they do not begin to know to handle these basic terms and resort to "megaleh ponim batorah sheloy kahalcha" without knowing the first things about halacha!
"And what are you insinuating now, that 10,000$ is not an exorbitant amount of money for conversion???"
" RaP: You tell me, I have no idea. But evidently the Troper/Kaplan duo think it's ok to shell out tens of millions to advertise and have PR and sponsor fully catered events to wine and dine goyim hitched to Jews to proselytize to them hoping they will convert. The very idea stinks and is stupid too!"
KRUMMER KOP! there is no isusr in shulchan oruch for those events; there is an issur in shluchan oruch for a dayan to collect 10,000$ for conversion!
"Are you now defending bomzer's conversion because you other batey dinim (not ttropper's conversion program) take lots of money for dinay torah?!? or gittin? Does that make his intake of goyim anymore Jewish??? For the time being Tropper's daysnim do NOT take 10,000$ for a gerut. Bomzer occasinally does. Even 3,600$ is an exxageration. Even 1,800$ is an exxageration. HOw much mroe so 10 or 18 thousand dollars. And the discussion hewre is the intake of goyim! A dayan who takes exorbitant money for his gerut; his conversion are NULL AND VOID!!"
' RaP: The only point, is that Bomzer is not the only person with a beit din allegedly on the take. The whole system is riddled with problems like this. I am not justifying anything.'
irrelevant! Just because other dayanim take lots of money will not make Bomzer's taking money anymore kosher! only in the kurmer kop of krumland RAP and his "learning" origins!
"non sequitor! as usual by the Rap/Bomzer chollent maker. Does thsat kasher bomzer's gerut?"
" RaP: Ah, you will never tire of bringing up Bomzer will you? It is so tiresome to talk to someone who is arguing so obssessively, like trying to have a debate with an accuser in the Inquisition or in one of Stalin's Bolshevic courts who wishes to have only a one way "discussion" -- his way! Sorry, but a cultured and civilized debate with give and take does not go that way, but you wouldn't know would you, you are trained to only go for the kill with a leave no prisoners approach. Nuts!"
zero nada zilch!!
"EJF's kuntzim does NOT invalidate the gerus performed by his batey dinim, as long as his batey dinim make sure that the candidate accepts to commit to mitzvot which they do! (and according to hater Rap/bomzer with "holier-than-thou requirements, at the end of the day they require kabbalt hamitzvot) and as long as they do not ask for exorbitant amount of m oney. IF they will you will be entitled to make the same criticism as I make toward bomzer. The poimnt: The criticism leveled is about goyim that Bomzer brings which is the REAL DANGER! Ejf's batey dinim do not carry this crime."
' RaP: Do not be a selective debater and hence a liar! ejf's PLAN is to bring BILLIONS of "converted" goyim into Klal Yisroel, forget the so-called "ejf batei dinim", they don't have any really, just one hired-gun for the job in Monsey under Troper's thumb. This is the Roni chollent maker at HIS best making up things that are not true. Troper went around convincing batei din to agree to be on his list but he does not run them and they are not answerable to him or to ejf in any way. Such hogwash Roni likes to sell as concocted "Torah misinai" and he thinks people are stupid as long as he can scream and shout "Bomzer, Bomzer" like "liar, liar" and drey Rabbi Eidensohn a kop with his Poilishe pilpulim shel hevel!!"
Krummer shoteh!!The EJf's Batey dinim exist. RAv Eisenstein set them up and knows their ehrlichkeyt!! Screaming billions trillions only work in KRUMLAND; IN THE REAL WORLD WE KNOW THAT EJF CONVERTED PER CAPITA LESS THAN BOMZER!!
"AS if those wuestions, touch about the core of the issue: that bomzer is a "converter" that brings goyim to klal yisroel. No amount of "questions" will touch the fact that many rabbis signed their name to condemntation of the nature that bomzer's conversions are without kabbalat mitzvot and that he brings goyim to kal yisorel. Any "question" that vades this issue is a veiled defnse of this fake converter."
" RaP: Call Bomzer any name you want, but the group must identify itself and set up its credibility clearly BEFORE they come to condemn anyone and not act like a bunch of seeming mercenaries out on a duck shoot. Justice must not only be done, it must also be seen to be done, but obviosly you skipped that lesson when they were teaching you character assassination in the dark side alleys you grew up in."
ZERO ZILCH NADA!!!
"We know that the BADATS represents the well-established Eidah Hachareidis and that Rav Shternbuch was chosen by them to sit on their long-established communal Bais Din (the BADATS)"
Tey do not represent charedi positions on issues other kashrut! IT is very well known in many issues, like voting in israeli elections and a multitude of issues."
" RaP: So now troper is the liberal Zionist as well. What a joke. Troper is as Charedi, if not more in his positions than the Eidah Hachareidis and by his example of ignoring them he is setting the WORST example to all his disciples and followers that you don't have to listen to bais din, even if it's the BADATS itself! And the BADATS deals with lots more than kashrus issues, a claim that belittles them, like saying that Troper only deals with "baal teshuvas and geirim" so what makes him so great?"
SHOTEH FROM KRUMLAND!!TROPPER HAS BACKING FROM CHAREDI RABBIS!!
"but who exactly does Vaad HaOlami represent if you subtract the holy name of Rav Eliashiv? Which community? "
Name sof chashuver and prominent rabbis and dayanim from various palces is what counts in this letter and you have people lik Rav MOshe SOloveitchik adn Rav WEiss condemning Bomzer."
RAP: Please write out their names IN FULL, what they head, and who they represent. That is a simple request. Thank you.
It is plain stupid!! RAv REuven FEinstein, RAv KKook, Dayan Ehrentrau, Rav Dovid Schochet are leadaing rabbis in the Halachik board of Ejf. They hav eBztey Dinim in many areas in the USA.
"These are fair questions and if you are going to go to war with the MO world by picking on a man like Bomzer who is connected to the Modern Orthodox, YU, RCA, Young Israel world "
Straw man and non sequitor: the rabbis clearly stated in this letter the allegation that they charge him for bringing goyim into klal yisroel, he does reequire kabbalat mitzvot and takes exorbitant money for his "conversions". Nothing to do with MO YU RCA. IT is a "Red herring" to borrow your phrase and a chollenmt to mux this in the discussion. You are a champion in making thes chollents and red herrings. Look they attack also Yehuda Stein. He is probably a "haredi" and they attacak in the same letteR!"
" RaP: Oh, so they can be talking about Bomzer and then throw in names like Yeedel Stein and anyone else they don't like. Everyone has people they dislike and at this rate we are going to be seeing lots more of these kinds of stupid and vengeful letters that attack people from only one point of viuew without giving the full picture. Let's hope the dayan ha'emes works better than that and not like a kangaroo court in all it's shameful "un-glory"!'
zilch zero nada!! Look the names of the Rabbis that signed the letter and they wrote that BOmzer and Yiddel Stein convert and bring goyim into klal yisroel!! Yuo may be an accomplice to some of these entries but the fact remains that they brought goyim to klal yisroel.
"(and it's NOT a "chollent" to point that out) then let's hear who the Vaad Haolami is talking for."
The people who signed the ltetter, the choshuver Rabbonim speak for themmselves (more than RaP speaks for BOmzer)."
RaP: To repeat: Who EXACTLY are the signers please? Could you write out their names in full, what their positions are, and who they represent. Thank you.
The names are on the letter. REad them!!1 (Unless you cannot read without nekudot).
"Rav Reuven Feinstein works in Staten Island, NY and has a home on the Lower East Side in Manhattan. Is that who he is talking for?" " AS if you ask a tiyuvta?! RRF canot convene with VH for Gerut because he is here and LT is there and RE is from chicago does that mean what? What is your point? THe rabbis who signed on the letter speak for themselves. They hav heard evidence anough to charge Bomzer with these crimes. They rabbis put their name that he is unfiit to a gerut dayan. PEriod. All cholents wil not erase this FACT!"
" RaP: And yours is a pretty neat chollent too. Now you are twisting and turning. What does it mean that since Rav Reuven Feinstein cannot make it to Israel they have to come up with half-measure nisht-debakenne michatvim shel hevel."
zero zilch nada.
" If Rav Eisenstein and his Va'ad wish to rule on an issue, as the BADATS did, let him convene his Bais Din and issue a ruling on the official Basi Din letterhead and not on from a stupid looking "P. O. Box" in Midwood, like Rav Meir Kahane z"l Haye"d, used to do with his JDL address sometimes."
They convened and wrote in the letter of the VAAD RAboney for Giyur headed by Rav Eisenstein the most respected giyur expert in the charedi world!
" Hopefully he will also allow Bomzer an opportunity to represent himself with a team of toanim so that true justice can be done. Hopefully the Sanhedrin will give everyone their day in court and will not turn out to be no better than Sharia law as practiced by the Ayatolas in Iran, lehavdil".
embarassing kosher rabbomi to sharia law!! mechutzaf krummer shoteh!
"and the BADATS are fully supported by the well-estbalished and well known and well defined Eidah HaChareidis of Yerushalayim that has world-wide recognition and support among the most serious Charedi and Chasidic sectors".
YEs, but Rav Reuven FEinstein and Rav Eisenstein and Dayan Ehrentrau and Rav Kook disagree respectfully with them! on this issue!"
RaP: No they don't! They have never issued EITHER a written support for Troper and ejf NOR have they ever responded to the BADATS or to Rav Shternbuch.
" Only Troper hiding behind the multiple online shields of poster "roni/Roni" is now offering up his chollent of pilpulei shel hevel vesheker to defend himself when he sees he is in big trouble."
zero nada zilch!
"Such things require greater clarifications from BIGGER gedolim to say such things (P.S. Troper and Rav Eisenstein are NOT gedolim, they are rabbis) and even if Rav Eliashiv, or Rav Shteiman or Rav Kanievsky would dare to say such a chutzpadikke chiddush, "
HERE AGAIN THE MASTER OF CHOLLENT AND HYPERBOLE! If they would say this chiddush, this RaP is going to call them "chutzpahdike" chiddush but his bobeh chiddushim about bomzer are not chutzpahdik! merida against shulchan oruch?!?"
" RaP: I have made absolutely NO chiddushim about Bomzer except to request that his accusers identify themnselves in full,"
the names are clear in the letter!
(I thought you are not the "defender" of bomzer; but after a while the cat cannot stop being his real self!).
' I am not defending anyone, but so far, we have not heard ANYTHING from Bomzer himself or a presentaion of his deeds by him and how he would defend himself halachically".
You can call any of the talmidey chachomim and rabbis who wrote their azahara! " Bomzer is a talmid chochem and a teacher of Talmud and rosh yeshiva at YU, and it's known he received a mandate of sorts and public brochas from the last Lubavitcher Rebbe to do work in geirus, and he deserves at least some professional courtesy and not yellings and warnings and strong arm tactics that look like it's the mafia working and not a group of honored rabbis'
irrelevant to what the man has done for the past decadae and half. These rabbis talked to him and followed him and begged him for years to change his ways and stop. IT has come the time for them to do the right thing and alert the public for the danger he presents as afake dayan.
. " RaP: Such bald faced lies. Don't you read your own ejf news and material? they are now calling out to a third of humanity, two billion people and they will have spouses so that makes it four billion people to come forth and convert via EJF proselytizing. Don' underestimate the effects of egomania, delusions of grandeur and the magnetic tug of false messianism".
ZERO ZILCH NADA!!!They do not bring goyim into klal yisroel. Would not convert anyone who would not commit to keep kashrut shabbat and taharat hamishpacha!
"One would need at least an EARLY ACHARON, like the RAMO or the MECHABER or the MAHARAL or the RAV's SHULCHAN ORUCH to say EXPLICITLY what Roni/Troper is trying to shove down everyone's throat as he intimidates people with the usual verbal bullying, but since NOT A SINGLE ACHARON or even anyone has written to come up with a "heter" for ejf."
Rav Elyashiv! stated so (as Rav Zilberstein wrote in the teshuva printed in Netzach Yisroel), Rav Reuven Feinstein agrees with this, Rav Wosner who allows his talmid Rav Stern to be a partner in the organization, Rav Shechter who stated that such an organization is long overdue (and he knew at the time that they encourage intermarried couples to convert halachikally), and the big chochom RAP tells them that if they say this it is "Chutzpah" for them to say. THe mechutzaf par excellence!!"
" RaP: Yeah, right, sure, they "agree" saying that it's ok for ejf to recruit two BILLION goyim and their spouses to Yiddishkeit as long as Troper can fool, hoodwink and give out grants of ejf and Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation shochad, peshuto kemashmao, to the rabbonim (like a date-rape drug as it were) who come to eat Kaplan's forbidden fruit bait at the fancy-shmansy hotels all bedekked with his pilpulei shel sheker vehevel that are the worst of ejf/troper chollents, chazir treif ones!'
zero nada zilch!!! He has their approval and none of them came out against him!
"It's just the cowardly anonymous Roni/Troper who is trying to shove and sneak in a "halachic" ruling That nobody has explicitly staed nor endorsed in any way) through the back door of a blog like this, shame on him!"
THEY ENDORSED WITH DEEDS! Rav FEinstein is part of the halachik advisory of the organization. So is Dayan Ehrentrau and so other mentioned earlier."
" RaP: Not enough! You seem to have no trouble being on the web and coming up with langge megilas to justify troper's new found love of gentiles hitched to Jew'.
nAS long as not one goy BECOMES A FAKE JEW AS BOMZER'S CRIMES!
Is troper ill? Suffering from a choli hanefesh? He seems to be moshe to now mekarevim BILLIONS of goyim because he has some personal netia or deeper negius, one has to really start wondering with the way he is now mamash in love with the goyim that he is going all out to come up with all sorts of pipulei shel hevel to defend this hair-brained scheme that is of mortal danger to the Jews, all as he shouts "Bomzer, Bomzer" for a classical smokescreen to his ma'asim shel nevalah!
"NO-ONE, in all of Jewish history, has ever dared to say what Roni/Troper is saying, and certainly no gadol today would dare say with a full mouth and with bak tzener such a ludicrous "heter" and "sevora" to justify the luring and preslytization of pure goyim, "
the irrational hyperbolic chollent maker at his best! Tell me again wHERE IS THE ISSUR in shulchan oruch to prosetyze reMOH? mECHABER? At best "we do not do not do it" by Aruch Hashluchan! nothing in shulchanoruch, REmo, Taz, Schach and other nossey kelim!"
" RaP: This just shows what a shotteh you are for all your citing of lomdishe sevoras. In Halacha it does NOT have to say that something is forbidden to make it so. Where does it say in the shulchan oruch that we are not allowed to rob banks or to torture people? That is the meaning of the old line, that: "where does it say in the Shulchan Oruch that I am not allowed to play with a white cat when I say over krias shema?" which you seemed to have not taken note of, while you were in thuggery school."
KRUMMER SHOTEH! bUT IT SAYS IN POSSKIM THINGS THAT i HAVE STATED. lthough in your circles they do not reada without nekudot but their slogans, look in the sources i cited to r. eidensohn from rav moshe feinstein and rav chayim ozer grodzenski!!!
"we are fully justified to tell post Roni/Troper to go fly a kite, because you are being megaleh ponim baTorah SHELO Kehalacha and you are guilty of apikursus and you should be put in cherem"
TEll me without chollent what is the "giluy panim baorah shelopy kahalacha", ' RaP: All of it. Every word that comes from you is sheker and dishonest. You only wish to bring billions of goyim via your cockmamy teitsch of "kabbalat ol mitzvot" and to make Troper the false messiah (like a Shabtai Tzvi and a Jesus figure r"l) over them all. This shall not come to be and it must be stopped!"
ZERO NADA ZILCH!!
"But i'll tell you that YOU are megaleh ponim batorah sheloy kahalacha by creating halochos in torah where there are not, and by defending a person who brin gs goyim to klal yisroel converting shikssah so their boss marries them, defending his conversions to good ones when they are goyim gemurim! you assist in bringing goyim into klal yisroel, so you should be put in cherem and be punished to eat the chollent that you make. as long as you do not poison klal yisroel by assisting a serial manufacter of goyim in klal yisroel!"
" RaP: Whatever. You have no credibility left to say this so I will put it on my toilet paper. You/troper are the worst gangster possible, one who knows how to learn! And in such a case you have no ne'emanus inspite of trying to create your own retarded chollents to welcome billions of goyim into the Am Hashem! Shame on you!"
SHAME ON YOU FOR DEFNEDING AND BEING AN ACCOMPLICE TO SOMEONE WHO BRINGS GOYIM TO KLAL YISROEL! AS FOR YOUR AMHORAATZOOS IN TORAH I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR IT; BUT BEFORE YOU SPOUT AND SPEAK OF THINGS THAT YOU DSO NOT KNOW GO AND LEARN SOME OF TORAH AND HALACHA!!! YOU ARE NOT EVEN QUALIFIED AS "MEGALEH PONIM BATORAH" FOR YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE MEGALEH OR SOSSER..BUT DEFENDING A PERSON WHO BRINGS SHIKSSES TO KLAL YISROEL IS CERTAINLY DESTROYING TORAH
Roni/troper/ejf lash out at everyone they decide to hate to create an obvious smokescreen for their own forbidden proselytization blunders!
Troper/ejf/roni are hoping that with all their screaming, rantings, insults and fake contrived lomdus, noone will notice that troper and ejf are now pro-actively trying to reach out and convert any gentiles that they pay good money to reach with their ads and infomercials!
All Torah loving Jews must work to stop them, as instructed by the rulings of the BADATS and Rav Moshe Shternbuch shlita!
Reading over the last ranting post by poster roni/troper one sees the level of sheer verbal violence and hate that troper is famous for, but nowhere does he address the terrible bitter reality that Troper and ejf have thrown themselves into unchartered and forbidden waters of reaching out to goyim hitched to Jews and that is why the BADATS and Rav Shternbuch have called on them to stop and for other G-d-fearing rabbis not to associate with them and to stay away from their events.
Roni twists words and misconstrues a call for context and objectivity, as if on a literal jihad, and only after long and tiresome discussions going nowhere does poster roni say that some rabbis were after Bomzer for a long time, which noone knows the full details of until now. Who, besides troper was after Bomzer, what was written? All this needs a to be known, and it's not about "justifying" or "defending" Bomzer or anyone, but fairness, objectivity, even sanity, demand all this just for the record, unless they have been on the troper anti-Bomzer hunting posse (today it's Bomzer, tomorrow it could be anyone, noone is safe in this kind of pure reign of terror by lunatic rabbis out to defend their own holier-than-though conversions that noone needs because so far those converts are turning out not "holier" than anyone elses converts according to all reports! while they hypocritically preach and act to recruit BILLIONS of gentiles to Judaism via the Internet.
When it comes to Orthodox rabbis facing off against each other, especially if it's in the form of Orthodox and Charedi batei din clashing with each other, they need to display dignity and koved to each other, not a troper-style hate-filled fox hunt for the bad guy with no rachmones and with fake crocodile tears for "bosses who ran of with secretaries" when Troper himself once ran off with a pretty young thing and divorced his wife. Now this is what one calls sheer chutzpa, but not roni/troper who just up the ante and blurt out more meshugassen and well-oiled hypocritical lines and falshe lomdus fit for Esav's bais din with his falshe frumkeit. Probably Yoshke Pandre also had lots of pilpulim and attacks against scapegoats to justify why he wanted to recruit the world to Yiddishkeit. Same goes for Shabtai Tzvi, he was an illui with lots of charisma (like Tropper and his cockamamy EJF) but he destroyed the world with trying to recruit goyim by the millions, so it's a huge hypocrisy to attack Bomzer while you are whistling to all the world's shiksas and shkotzim to jump on board your rotten shop online and become "halachic Jews"! Shrek! Shame on you!
I do not and have not subcribed to Bomzer's positions, but the man is entitled to his day in court and not to the be called a "criminal" by Troper (who blatantly functions like a criminal and uses criminal methods) treated visciously in a manner befitting thugs and not rabbis.
Just look at the way roni/Troper screams and has fits, is that normal rational behavior? If this is how Troper or even Rav Eisenstein think that they are going to violently destroy rabbi after rabbi and bais din after bais din that they don't like, and that in the end they will "win" something, then they are in for a sorry surprise because this "solution" will lead to worse troubles than it solves. It will BLOW UP in their faces!
Seeing that poster roni is now reduced to sputtering and muttering insults as if he is frothing at the mouth, it is noteworthy that roni/Troper NEVER gives answers or ANY reasons why ejf, at this very moment is hiring writers to PROSELYTIZE and look for BILLIONS of goyim who may have once-upon-a-time been from Jewish ancestry. And no, Bomzer was never THAT meshuga and he never tried to recruit or proselutize to all the world's gentiles (you are so crazy for even trying to make that point, even if half joking.)
So while roni/troper "demand" that a letter from a "P.O. Box" condeming a rabbi they hate be taken as "Torah misinai" (it may or it may not be, who knows) yet roni/troper merrily go about the business that they think people don't notice of singing the songs of mass proselytization like luring sirens to the billions of gentiles.
Hey, roni/Troper, how do you fa-entfer with all your krumme lomdus, do you think you have the "haskoma" from Rav Moshe Feinstein and Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinsky, both long-departed to do this crazy stuff that you can't hide?:
Funny how, for example, poster roni/troper does not condemn articles by "Art Gib" and call him all sorts of names with his outright invitations to proselytizations to the world's gentiles and does not get apoplectic that the name of ejf is smack dab in the center of a whole slew of recent articles obviously pushed by ejf people on the Internet:
What to make of these "beauties" by "Art Gib" pushing the ejf party line?:
1) Building United Jewish Homes Through Intermarriage Conversion (Article Archive): "...That's why independent organizations exist to provide couples with the information, guidance and support that they need. With some of the most respected and revered teachers leading these organizations, couples can rest assured that they are in competent and loving hands. The goal of these groups is to help intermarriage couples complete a legitimate conversion process that will last and strengthen the faith of parents and children in Jewish homes. The leaders of this organization understand that when parents are united in what they believe and teach, their posterity is much more likely to stay loyal to the faith and create their own eternal Jewish family. If you don't understand the importance of family and traditions to the Jewish people, a few hours of watching Fiddler on the Roof should give you a glimpse into the matter. About the Author :- Eternal Jewish Family (http://eternaljewishfamily.org/) only works with couples at a Rabbi's recommendation. Since conversion is a highly personal matter, they do not guarantee conversion either. They can provide the things you need to be legitimate. The author, Art Gib, is a freelance writer."
2) Keeping Your Family Eternal in Judaism (Article Archive): "...In order for a family to remain its strongest it is believed, in Orthodox Judaism, that all members must be true Jews. So what happens to a family that is intermixed? Where one parent is Jewish, the other is not, and some children are Jewish while others are not? With varying beliefs, there is the potential for conflict. So how is the problem of mixed families, where Jews and non-Jews live together as the same family unit, resolved? If everybody is not a true Jew, then the there can be conflict in the way the family chooses to live their lives. While the Jewish members abide by the teachings of G-d, the non-Jewish members choose a different path that is not in synch with the same laws...But in cases where non-Jews decide to convert to Judaism, it must be done correctly for the convert to become a "true Jew."..A major point of disagreement comes into play with conversion. Orthodox Jews do not believe that the conversion process as practiced by Reform and Conservative branches to be legitimate. Therefore, they are not true Jews...About the Author :- For those seeking advice on Orthodox Judaism and conversion, Eternal Jewish Family (http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org) is there to provide it. Art Gib is a freelance writer.
4) Basics of the Jewish Faith (Article Archive): "While nearly one third of the population of the world is considered Jewish or has Jewish ancestry, Judaism is a religion not understood very well by those who don't practice in the modern world. Sure, we know about Hanukkah and Passover, but what are the basic foundations of this worldwide faith. If you've always had questions or curiosities, or are considering conversion and want to know more, most of the time all you have to do is ask. Here are some of the basic precepts and beliefs of Judaism...About the Author :- Eternal Jewish Family (http://eternaljewishfamily.blogspot.com) offers information on Jewish conversion. Art Gib is a freelance writer."
5) The Jewish Family - A Question of Conversion (Article Archive): "If you're thinking of converting to Judaism, the process and requirements are quite different depending on which "denomination" you are looking at: Orthodox, Conservative or Reform, or any of the variations therein. Please note, however, that if a conversion is performed by any means other than by the use of an orthodox rabbi, Jewish Law deems the conversion invalid. Of course, the most difficult conversion is to the Orthodox faith, involving such commitments as living within walking distance of a Shul. Because a Jew must not drive on Shabbat, but must attend Shabbat services at Shul, obviously the only way to conform to the Talmudic law is to live close enough to a Shul to be able to get there on foot...About the Author :- Eternal Jewish Family (http://hubpages.com/hub/Converting-to-the-Orthodox-Jewish-Faith) is a web site dedicated to the eternal Jewish family. Art Gib is a freelance writer."
6) Importance of Family in Judaism: How Far Does It Go? (Article Archive): "...Jews consider the family as the building blocks of society. Jewish law and traditions are there exactly to highlight the importance of family. They recognize the fact that each parent can bring something unique in the education, emotional, social, religious and material needs of the children. It also acknowledges the importance of quality time spent by each parent with their children. Since different duties and laws fall on the Jewish men and women, children will only be able to have a whole Jewish experience if both parents practice the same faith. It would be difficult to give a child a full Jewish experience if only one parent is practicing the religion...About the Author :- Eternal Jewish Family (http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org) is committed to helping families come together in the Jewish faith by consulting on proper Orthodox Jewish conversion and marriage. Art Gib is a freelance writer."
8) The Menorah: An Enduring Symbol Of Faith: "...About the Author :- The mission of Eternal Jewish Family (http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org) is to serve as a support for intermarried couples who commit to live their lives as part of a Jewish family in accordance with traditional Jewish law. Menorah symbolism is an important expression of Jewish faith. Art Gib is a freelance writer."
1) EJF - fishing for converts (January 6, 2009), original article at Halachic Conversion (Ezine Articles): "Marriage and family are two beautiful and sacred things in the Jewish community. Through marriage comes children, and through children comes the preservation of their belief and way of life. Those who choose to get married do so with the hope that they will be able to have an eternal Jewish family. However, many of these marriages are intermarriages where one spouse is of the faith while the other isn't. The two of them agree to work together and teach the same beliefs, but unless the non-Jewish spouse is converted using the standards of halacha, the conversion is often considered invalid. The conversion doesn't have to stay invalid, however. There are organizations out there that teach the halachic method of conversion and help these couples bypass this hurdle. By converting to Judaism using the halachic method, the non-Jewish spouse will be considered a valid, orthodox member of the faith and community. When it comes time to teach the children religious beliefs both parents will be assets because they will know they have the belief system and passion necessary for the training of children...Eternal Jewish Family, or EJF, is a website with information on Jewish family issues. Billings Farnsworth is a freelance writer."
3) EJF defended (December 19, 2008) from All About the EJF (i Reviewlocal.com December 18, 2008: "...What is the EJF? Also known as the Eternal Jewish Family, the EJF is an organization dedicated towards helping interfaith families achieve a Jewish destiny, as dictated by the halacha...In conclusion, if an interfaith couple has a genuine interest in orthodox Judaism, EJF can provide assistance. If the conversion is successful, the couple and their children will be considered universally orthodox in accordance to halachic guidelines."
EJf does NOT bring goyim into klal yisroel but bomzer brings GOYIM into klal yisorel! (with all the $$$$ that comes to him and his partners that assist him and split the pie).
It's amazing that roni-troper can come up with letters "against" rabbis, but after a few years in business EJF and troper still cannot come up with any written haskomas from anyone, even a one-line on official stationary of Rav Reuven Feinstein or Rav Eisenstien Va'ad HaOlami,nor even official kuntresim like ron/troiper is now posting up all over the place with his pilpulei shel hevel vesheker to justify "outreach to goyim hitched to Jews" by the BILLIONS (as the links to articles making such EXPLICIT appeals above show is EJF's aim and plan) and with chutzpa claim that Rav Chaim Ozer Grudzinsky ztk"l and Rav Moshe Feinstein ztk"l would somehow retrocatively "approve" of such apikursus to promote "reaching out to goyim" in the name of Halacha yet, that can only result in the end in pure shmad of Yidden like in the times of Shabtai Tzvi and Yeshu Hanotzri, r"l, because more than EJF will influence the goyim it plans to convert in holier-than-thou fashion, the millions and billions goyim ejf is clearly gunning for (according to own infomercials) would chalilo eventually flood Klal Yisroel with their influences, much the same way that Shlomo HaMelech's 1000 glatt-kosher-converted-gentile-wives willy-nilly brought all their bad influences upon Shlomo himself, the wisest of all men, to the ruination of Shlomo Hamelech and Am Yisroel! And Shlomo was a lot smarter and tougher than the troiper/kaplan duo and ejf and look what happened to him in the end.
Why does troiper think he is smarter and wiser than Shlomo Hamelech? Reason: A burning dangerous megalomania and unsatiated false-messianism in full scream (literally screaming, if you look at the way he responds and posts his insults on this blog.)
It was pathetic to watch in some recent posts how poster Roni/troiper do their own poo-pooing of the letters that were written against Tropper and EJF by the BADATS and Rav Shternbuch as Roni/Troper ignore those and hypocritically expect Bomzer to respond to their letter co-signed by Troper from a "P. O. Box" yet with such blatant chutzpah and lies.
It is the height of hypocrisy to expect another rabb, any rabbi, or any self-respecting human with an ounce of self-dignity, to respond to troiper and stop his actvitivities when Troper himself received the exact same type of letters from the BADATS to stop his proselytization actvities and yet troiper did not even bother to respond to the BADATS, and added insult to injury, as Rabbi Eidensohn/da'as torah has reported a few times on this blog already, Troper insulted Rav Shternbuch and smeared Rabbi Eidensohn, and this is the same troiper who screams and shouts and expects Bomzer to jump to attention when troiper proves with his own failed personal examples that he not only does not jump to attention but insults them and calls them "kashrus supervisors" when rabbis such as from the choshuve BADATS issue letters NOT from an anonymous non-descript "P. O. Boxes" but from a full venerable centuries old Bais Din with clear signatures with clear names of the seven dayanim, yet troiper says they are just "kashrus supervisor" rabbis that need not be listened to while he expects Bomzer to respond to his own letters. Now that folks is an example of hypocrisy in motion in all it's ugly full-blown glory!
Troiper does not even want to tell who the rabbis are who smudged their signatures on this letter he touts. He says that it's because people can't read without nekudot as if that menat to mean that he is the only one with the smarts and that the rest of the world is dumb.
Get this mister, if you are posting such a letter THAT IS IN ENGLISH, then you owe it to the world to state IN ENGLISH who those signatures are from, what positions those men hold, who they represenet and if anyone could contact them to find out if they still hold from the positions they signed on to, because Rabbi Nochum Eisenstien and Rabbi Tropper are now not working together as they used to and as poster roni/troper has already admitted on this blog to the distancing between rabbi Tropper and Rabbi Eisenstien, that is yet another strike against this letter.
By the way, does it mean that if only these rabbis signed that the others who belonged to this organization refused to sign? It would therefore seem that more rabbis refused to sign than actually signed in the end so that in itself invalidates this letter.
This is the kind of line of attack poster roni/troper would use if he was Bomzer, and there is not much difference between Bomzer and Troper, they are both Orthodox rabbis getting lots of money to be involved with conversions, just Troper gets lots more to recruit gentiles to his ejf from Tom Kaplan and the Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation for ejf wine and dine the gentiles meetups at fancy resorts and hotels while it's still not known how much Bomzer's official professional fees are.
Roni/troiper spent his time in recent posts trying to chop up and and distort the meaning and intent of the BADATS letters in some recent posts, but when someone tries to question his own letter he goes ballistic and curses out the world. What hypocrisy and one-sided chutzpah!
Why didn't you respond like a mentsch to the letters from the BADATS and from Rav Shternbuch, roni/troper? Do you think you deserve special treatment because you are a self-annointed kanoi to save the world like St. George saving the shisa-damsels in conversion distress from the dragon/Bomzer?
Why do you expect Bomzer or anyone to act better than you did when you send out letters, not even from a Bais Din, just a couple of jumbled signatures with yours clearly displayed? Do you think you are an official dayan now to add your name to letters of Halachic import? You are just a small time kiruv rabbi from Monsey and it's time for you to get back to your job as "rosh yeshiva" (chief mullah) of your dinky Kol Yaakov yeshiva.
Would any normal person expect Bomzer or anyone withan ounce of pride to respond to letters from troper when troper has been after his blood for years? Do you enjoy people to respond out fear to you? That is sadism, not Judaism! You wouldn't know, would you, you don't accept knowledge from the secular world, only its goyim! Another hypocrisy: Goyim are good for conversion, but when it comes to chochma bagoyim you hold "lo ta'amin" and you think no-one notices your hypocrisy in full public display!
And why should Bomzer respond at all when troiper has not once in over a year bothered to respond like a normal mentsch would to the BADATS and Rav Shternbuch? You think that Bomzer or anyone must submit to you like a servile puppy while you act like an arrogant inquisitor and mafia enforcer and chutzpanyak?
The hypocrisy and chutzpah of roni/troper is so overwhelming and sickening! Terror is not the way to bring people closer to Yiddishkeit!
In case roni/troper or any reader forget about the letters from the BADATS and Rav Shternbuch that Troper has still not gotten around to aanwering, here are the links to them again:
"Distinguished Rabbi shlita, I am requesting from you - with every expression of entreaty - to stop and break off association with this organization (Eternal Jewish Family) which is a danger to the future of the Jewish people. Even isolated cases of this type of conversion (of intermarried couples) are extremely problematic. This is explicitly stated by the Achiezer (3:28) that “no kosher beis din should deal with this (the conversion of intermarried couples).” Also look in the Igros Moshe (E.H. 1:27) where he states “this whole issue of conversion of intermarried couples is personally totally distasteful even in isolated cases.” It is simply not acceptable to deal with the issue of intermarried couples in this manner and to openly reinforce their activities with public announcements and notices in newspapers and internet and other such means. They are in effect inviting non‑Jews to participate in a program of conversion through this publicity. It is a really damaging approach which unfortunately will bring about even more intermarriages and invalid conversions. Distinguished Rabbi shlita, please act according to your understanding and wisdom and desist from participating in this program (of the Eternal Jewish Family). It is a public danger. G‑d should assist you."
Rav Sternbuch, shlita approved translation by Daniel Eidensohn.
ב"ה
5th of Kislev 5768
The senior dayanim of the Bedatz met today to discuss allegations that certain kiruv activists are actively proselytizing the children of intermarried couples to convince them to convert – even though according to Torah law there is no halachic relationship with their Jewish fathers. They are calling for the acceptance of these non-Jewish children in Jewish programs and religious schools. Such an action is literally a disaster and self‑destructive. It is self‑evident that such a program is absolutely prohibited by the Torah.
Furthermore until now anyone who wanted to marry a non‑Jewess – Heaven forefend! – knew very well that this act would sever them from the Jewish people forever. Because of the dire consequences of intermarriage, there was a strong barrier that prevented many from intermarrying. However now that the consequence of exclusion from the Jewish people has been removed - this motivation not to intermarry has been lost. Consequently these intermarried couples and their children remain amongst the Jewish people. This results in their non-Jewish children being accepted into religious schools out of the hope that they will eventually convert.
Therefore we are warning that this activity is against the Torah. It has never been acceptable to proselytize non‑Jews. Furthermore as we mentioned it actually encourages intermarriage.
We therefore are turning to the poskim and the roshei yeshivos not to participate in their conventions - such as the one that occurred in America last week. Even if their motivation was to improve the standards of conversions – they are making improvements in one area while making things worse in another. This approach is directly causing serious problems.
Those who heed our cautions will benefit and receive blessings.
We - the members of the Bedatz in Jerusalem - affix our signature to this document out of fear and concern for the holiness of the Jewish people – the holy nation.
4) The issue is - What is the halachic basis of EJF? (December 21, 2007) [Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn/da'as torah]: "It is time to remind everyone what is the concern of the Bedatz and why I have posted material on this blog. It is simply ascertaining the halachic basis of what Eternal Jewish Family is doing with intermarried couples. Once the purported halachic basis is ascertained - to have poskim evaluate the assertions and either agree, disagree or suggest modifications. There are no published teshuvos dealing with their activities. There are no letters explaining what they are doing. Why?
The issue has been raised repeatedly as to why I am discussing only EJF when there are other organizations and rabbis who have problematic conversion programs. I don't understand the relevance of the question. How does the existence of a greater problem minimize the fact that this organization - with great fanfare - has announced that they are raising the standards of conversion so that they will be universally acceptable? They themselves have asserted that their reason for existence is to create the gold standard of conforming to halacha. How does their announced goal conform with what they are actually doing? Furthermore why have they introduced a program of seminars to enourage the non-Jewish spouse to convert. They are spending millions of dollars to convince people who are uncertain that it is desirable to be Jewish. Why is this needed?
Related to this is a question I was asked by a charedi rosh yeshiva this morning. "One of the horror stories that EJF has told to illustrate the low halachic standards of others is that a woman went to mikva for her conversion and it was discovered afterwards that she was wearing contact lenses. It is well known that Rav Moshe held that contact lenses are not a chatzitza - even though it is best to remove them. But how can they claim to be following Rav Moshe's psakim and at the same time tell such stories?"
I am not accusing Rabbi Tropper of corruption, or trying to become rich from a conversion racket. I am not trying to close down EJF. As far as I know Rabbi Tropper is an ehrliche yid, a solid talmid chachom, someone who has devoted his life to help the Jewish people. I am saying that despite all my efforts on behalf of the Bedatz, I have not been able to get my concerns addressed. He did take the time and effort for an extended exchange of e-mails - but I could not get him to answer my questions. I find this very puzzling. If the tables were reversed, I don't think it would take me more than 5 minutes to explain what is going on. Rav Tropper is a much greater talmid chachom than I am - and yet he has not produced an answer. He has not produced a letter from Rav Dovid or Rav Reuven Feinstein explaining how Rav Moshe permitted what is happening. He has not produced a letter from Rav Eliashiv to explain the justification for their actitivites. Why?"
~~~~~
But so far, (as roni would say) nothing, nada, zip, zilch from Rabbi Tropper and the EJF to ANY of the above! Only stonewalling and silence and now insults from poster Roni who also has given some versions of his pilpulim on other posts but they are anonymous posts that have no official meaning or value until such time that they can be put on EJF stationary, like the letter to Bomzer, and sent as an official and formal response to the BADATS and Rav Shternbuch and at the same time obtain a few official haskomas in writing for EJF and for Rabbi Tropper's radical and upstart proselytizations, just as it was possible to come up with a written protest against Rabbi Bomzer, they should able to come with positive OFFICIAL letters or approval for themselves and not just hysterical rages online.
Tropper does NOT bring goyim into klal yisroel, RBozmer/Rap bring goyim into klal yisroel (as attested by choshuver rabbonim and then rake in $$$$ into their pockets!
Just to add to you RAP/BOmzer: You are an apikorress and a big am hoorets who does not know how to make a cogentresponse and address the points discussed and your amoratzishe boorishe comment that "chatey kedey shyizkeh" is not mentioned in an achron and if it would, it would also must be backed by ....shows what the true amhooretz and boor you are. Like in your circles, they never toiled on a blatt gemoroh and rishonim and achronim so you do not realize that i was not mmechdesh chidusshim; just repeating what is in the Posskim for years....instead of blattering your chollent/hate towards other jews go sit and learn a piece of toraH SHE BAAL PEH. gET A GOOD TUTOR BECUASE YOU REALLY NEED IT!
Roni says: "gET A GOOD TUTOR BECUASE YOU REALLY NEED IT!"
Hey Roni/troiper, maybe the BADATS and Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn should also get good tutors?
How about all the people that have walked away from you and from EJF like Rabbi Hershel Shechter of YU and the RCA rabbis and Rav Nochum Eisenstein should also get remedial training to agree with you, because each time someone goes against you, you obviously think that they are missing the all-knowing knowldege that you claim to have.
You know, 2000 years ago when Jesus started his false messianic movement and insisted in his lifetime that his converts should also be mekabel ol mitzvot, learn Torah, keep Shabbat, Kashrut, bris mila, and all the taryag mitzvot, yet look what happened to him in the end and how his movement fizzled out and became a huge and painful thorn in the side of Yiddishkeit (like EJF now is) but was later changed and hijacked and became Christianity, that's what you/troiper and EJF are planning.
Jesus was also a gants feiner lamden like you, he learned in some of the best yeshivas of his time and was a talmid of the Tannaim, but he was a chutzpanyak like you and remained as krum as krum can be because he was blinded by his own false messianic complex. His charsima and success blinded him to his problems and what he was doing. Take heed of what I am saying!!!
I see that you are reduced to insults and sputtering and frothing at the mouth. Too bad, it just shows who is the boor and am hara'aretz. You take rishonim and Toirah, play with it like putty, belch out boich sevoras, and make it fit your ends, Tropper is known as an illui, but just because he knows how to learn that does not make him right on all the issues, as you can see Rav Shternbuch and the Dayanim on the BADATS told him off and they say he is 100% wrong, see their letters against you above, yet again.
I think I like Rabbi Eidensohn as my online tutor for now, we don't always agree on everything, but he is a big talmid chochem, don't you think. He is a lot safer than you! Do you approve?
By the way, I see that one of the people that signed the anti-Bomzer letter was Rabbi Fried from the Dallas Kollel, what is his standing here, that he heads a Kollel with ten avreichim and that he has 100 BTs running after him in Texas? How much money did he get so far from Dr. Tom Kaplan via EJF's slush funds to other mosdos? That makes him a power to sign letters against other rabbonim? If he has something to say, let him and the others put it in writing their full support and haskomas for Tropper and EJF (which notice they have not done) and any attacks against other rabbis should come from his DATA Torah center on their official stationary and not hiding behind a double "P.O. Box" (on in Brooklyn and one in Israel) and when he does it, we'll show it around and follow up and report on all the fake conversions he has done over the years as well, and we'll prove what a hypocrite he is as well when we show some of the rich balebatim/supporters in Dallas and Texas who helped get phoney conversions for their kids shiksa wives how he now has the audacity to sign letters against other rabbis who are doing no different to him. More chutzpa in motion from a typical Tropper ally. What can you expect!
There will be more to say about the other signees. None of them are perfect when it comes to conversions.
You are certainly a bomzer supporter with $$$ stakes at hand to out on a limb to defend him when he brings goyim into klal yisroel. You don't care about anything and go on attack on a rabbi of dallas whom you know almost close to nothing about; just splattering loshon hooh and letzonous about the guy who put his name to sign that bomzer BRINGS GOYIM TO KLAL YISROEL andf you probably take a good cut with bomzer so that he cotniues to rake in thousandsa from bringing goyim intro klal yisroel. krummeh svoros, attacking innocent people AND A PARTNER TO BRING GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL!
I am an Orthodox Rabbi of an Orthodox shul with over 200 families. A year ago I performed a wedding of a wonderful and observant couple who lives in my community. The bride was converted a few years before she met her husband by Rabbi Bomzer. Among her papers of conversion, was a letter where she was asked by the Beis Din to sign a statement accepting upon herself all of the mitzvot including Rabbinic and Torah Mitzvot. I was impressed at the specificity of the listing of the mitzvos and saw that it was obviously an added protection for her that the beis din was responsible enough to ask her questions verbally as she reported to me about the mitzvos and whether or not she accepted all of them and of course she did and to go the extra mile of having her sign it on paper. I asked her about the process of the beis din and I am satisfied that it was completely done according to halacha.
She did not pay $10,000 dollars as was suggested here somewhere and it was obvious to me that this was a serious process. Today, a little more than one year later I know for sure that she is observant, she covers her hair with a tichol and she attends the mikvah regularly and her family is shomer shabbos and kashrus. I have no reservations whatsoever eating at her home and I am absolutely certain that this guir is complete and legitimate.
Additionally other colleagues have told me when I asked about Rabbi Bomzers giur that it is accepted by most and especially by Rabbi Kotlarsky of Lubavitch and many many others. All of them told me that the paperwork they have seen included this formal acceptance of the mitzvos and all of the gerim that we have seen or heard about have been observant Jews. I do not know why this terrible letter was put out and I do not wish to get involved in the politics of Rabbi Tropper vs Badatz etc. But it should be stated that he does get the kabolos hamitzvos in writing and that many of us in practical Rabbonus do accept his giur and have seen that all the gerim that we have seen have been observant yorei shomayim frum yidden.
I'm really confused by RAP's latest posting but I have to say that one thing came through. It must have been really embarrassing for EJF to have one of its principle lay leaders not be willing to live up to the necessary standards for a halachic conversion. Despite the possible loss of money, despite the embarassment, EJF still refused to sponsor someone for conversion who would not live a halachic lifestyle afterwards. That's pretty impressive in my eyes.
AND SEE THE ATTACHED "A Statement of clarification" signed by Rabbi Moshe Soloveitchik of Chicago and Rabbi Naphtoli Borenstein of Cleveland"!!
"Rabbi Eidensohn,
Although I have studied at yeshiva, I do not consider myself anything close to a chocham; I do, however, feel that I am a rather good judge of character and a more than good analyst of arguments. I have also had personal experiences with conversions and rabbis who perform them. It is for this reason that I am writing to add my support to those who claim that Rabbi Chaim Zev Bomzer has been libeled and slandered in the controversy over the legitimacy of his geirus.
I have been reluctant to write on the matter of R' Tropper and R’ Eisenstein’s charges against Rabbi Bomzer, because I try my best to avoid spreading lashon hora. I admit that because of my own relative lack of talmudic education, I tend to err on the side of caution whenever I am confronted with a situation where my words may be viewed as inappropriate. But this situation demands that all information which can reveal the truth be provided to as many eyes as possible. Having been referred to the blog and having read the many statements supporting and condemning both factions, I have come to the realization that certain obvious questions are being glossed over in the indignation both sides are claiming as a result of this disagreement.
The first issue that has gone undiscussed is the matter of bringing this argument to a din torah for resolution. It is my understanding that R’ Eisenstein has declined to attend a beis din in the US on the grounds that his mentors tell him he need not leave Israel to resolve this matter. Rabbi Bomzer, on the other hand, feels that only in the US can this matter be properly and fairly adjudicated because of numerous adim and other potential expert witnesses who will not or cannot afford to make the trip to Israel. What would it take to have R' Eisenstein come to the US? Would it simply be a matter of the flight? By this letter, I offer to pay R' Eisenstein’s fare if he will agree to come to the US for the beis din.
The other issue is the legitimacy of the letter ostensibly signed by the respected and revered chochomim condemning Rabbi Bomzer and warning against acceptance of his geirus. I have learned that more than one of the signatories has since retracted his support for the contents of that letter. Some have gone so far as to claim that the letter they signed did not contain the same language as the letter which has been circulated, while others have stated that at the very least they do not remember the letter to have stated such things when they signed it, and that they now state unequivocally that they do not support what the letter claims. I am attaching to this email a copy of a statement signed by two of those signatories which I hope you will see fit to place on your blog.
It is not my intention to become involved in any "back and forth" with your other commentators. I have been a contributor to newsgroups and online debates for more than 25 years, and know too well how easily some people allow themselves to behave online in ways they would not dare were they talking to their opponents face to face. So it is my intention bli neder to make this my only statement on the subject in the hope that, by refraining from participation in any inflammatory dialogue, R' Eisenstein will take me up on my offer to assist his participation in the only forum that can settle this matter once and for all.
All the best,
Ben Israel"
AND SEE THE ATTACHED "A Statement of clarification" signed by Rabbi Moshe Soloveitchik of Chicago and Rabbi Naphtoli Borenstein of Cleveland"!!
Why is Rav Reuven Feinstein not included as one of the signatures? Seems as if most of the rabbanim who signed are toshevai eretz yisroel.
ReplyDeleteHow far back into the past does this policy of non-acceptance extend? What about converts who have stayed shomer mitzvot after conversion - are they now gentiles? What about those converts' children?
ReplyDeleteWhat's predictable is the responses on many other blogs: how "wrong" this is.
ReplyDeleteThis is the Rav Sherman thing all over again. The Chareidi beis din will claim it is following halachah. All its disputants will bring emotional arguments but not legal ones. And Rav Riskin will have to drag out his crying Torah one more time.
For once I'd like to see a refutation of this beis din based (get it: beis d, based?!?) on halachah instead of "What a crappy thing that was to do". Because in real legal systems crappy things happen all the time. That may make them difficult to accept but not illegal.
The RCA under the Geirus Protocals- Beth Din of America has a new website that answers a lot of questions.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.judaismconversion.org/index.html
The website states:
One of the benefits of the system of regional batei din under the auspices of the Rabbinical Council of America is that it provides future converts with the security that their conversions will be broadly accepted and will not be unnecessarily questioned in the future.
The current system should in no way affect the status of conversions performed prior to its inception.
All those who were converted properly in the past in accordance with the dictates of halacha should be aware that the status of their conversions is unchanged. If an individual is concerned that his or her conversion may not be recognized, he or she may contact the Beth Din of America for assistance. "
> All those who were converted properly in the past in accordance with the dictates of halacha
ReplyDeleteAh, but that's the trick statement, isn't it? The Israeli chareidi beis dins have a definition of what a proper halachic conversion is and they're using that definition to overturn these previously valid ones.
To Garnel
ReplyDeleteWe are discussing our holy nation
and how to keep it holy, so it behooves u to discuss this in language befitting this important topic. The Halacha clearly states that a convert must accept and perform all (possible) 613 Mitzvohs. Failure to accept even one invalidates the giur. Now what is your question?
Was does the RCA and BDA have to do with Israeli Charedim? The RCA is a Modern Orthodox American Rabbinical organization.
ReplyDeleteThank you Dear Daas Torah!
ReplyDeleteMost signatures seem to be from the USA or Canada.
IT is a very sensitive issue indeed. It is an issue for kedushat am yisrael. And an issue that cannot be shoved under the rug. Rav Moshe quivered with this since he came to the USA. The problems will remain here to stay if there would be no consensus over a higher standard! A minimal but higher. The system cannot allow continuous proliferation of "converts" without basic kabbalat hamitzvot: not to drive on sabbat, not to cook on shabbat, not to eat taref in a tref restaurant, not to go to mikveh when necessary. How can one later complain that there are those who have legitimate claims that such practices are not valid. They should complain over the allowance of such a valueless and meaningless "Conversion" ceremony to replace the institution of a concept that transforms a person who until now was not (openly) part of the jewish nation to become part of the Holy Nation! This must come through some real transformation befitting an am Kadosh. When it is necessary to perform a conversion to an intermarried couple who seeks to change the lives to a Torah lifestyle they must act in the spirit and the letter of this idea, and not just to get another piece of paper so that others not look at them as strangers, for in that case they should remain in the way they are, for (although it is a tragic phenomenon for intermarried to live together a married life) it is better that they not delude themselves and others that they are Jewish when one of them is really not (yet) Jewish. WE do not do them and ourselves any favors by giving them this poisonous sweet candy for after the intake of this candy they will still be in the same state as before and worse off as one who attempts to fool himself does not know how really he is in need for a cure.
In addition the actual process cannot be one that makes a mockery of this holy concept by making this a business and violating the laws that a judge cannot charge exorbitant fees to make the conversion.
What is the chidush ? Vaad Hrobanim Haolami Leinyaney Giyur had it for rabbi Bomzert for many years and they used to have many edicts and proclamations against him but they usually only used te R. B. (check the archives in http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/vaad.htm )I guess they hesitated to go directly after prominent Modern Orthodox rabbi. Time changes and the submissiveness of the MO just caused more haredi aggressiveness.
ReplyDeleteThis is not different from r' Nachum Eisenstein saying that Rabbis who wear blue shirt, believe in old universe and round earth cannot serve as dayans or from Tropper banning Slifkin or other pashkevils you see on the walls of Jerusalem, Beni brak and West Hollywood (ok just kidding on the last one).
I think the haredi had for rabbi Bomzer from his role on Vaad Harabanim of Flatbush when they did not like Modern Orthodoxy supervision and started their own kashrus Kehila Kosher while saying that the vaad Harabanim hashgacha is not good.
MT,
ReplyDeleteYou can try and try to defend the indefensible. This edict and warning was signed by many RAbbonim, bsides Rav Eisenstein. And someone like Rav Moshe Solovetichk who if i'm not mistaking is not a charedi who ttacks MO in general. But the truth is, that if you ask serious MO Rabbis they will tell you that they detest RHB's "conversions" just as Rabbi Eisenstein!
Why the letter is not on the vaad releases?
ReplyDeletewhy it is not being publicized ?
and if the letter is authentic how come only r’ Tropper has access to it ?
The body and contents of this letter are very serious matters!
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, its heading (meaning its letter-head) and its ending (meaning its signatories and their supposed signatures that ideally would need to be confirmed by neutral third parties) weaken it to the point that it may unfortunately make it near to worthless, and one sees why it could be withstood by Rabbi Bomzer (see a little more about him below) or someone similar to him in his situation.
Bomzer is not Slifkin and he cannot be treated that way nor will he go quitely into the night just because Tropper hates him and rav Eisenstein has targeted him for elimination and disgrace without due process (do rabbis even have a notion of what that means when they issue decrees like this that they expect the world to bow down to and hail "Ja-vol"?)
Here are a few questions and observations about this letter that any intelligent reader should ask:
Concerning the Va'ad Harabonim Ha'Olami LeInyanei Giur.
We know that it was founded by the late Rav Chaim Kreiswirth of Antwerp ztk"l, and that it is run by Rav Nochum Eisenstein from Yerushalayim. It's a "Lithuanian Charedi" set up. We know it ALSO has an affiliated active Bais Din LeIyanei Giur of which Rav Eisenstein is also a dayan with three other dayanim, and that the over-all project of BOTH the Va'ad and its affiliated Bais Din are under the guidance of Rav Eliashiv.
Both the Va'ad and its Bais Din for matters pertaining to giur have an undefined relationship with the Israeli Chief Rabbinate, since the Va'ad and its Bais Din are NOT an official part of the Chief Rabbinate and reserve their right to make independent (Charedi) decisions and declarations that are neither cleared by nor approved by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate.
In fact at times the Va'ad opposes decisions of the Chief Rabbinate, such as fighting Rav Amar's plans to work with the RCA or set up new committees in Israel to deal with conversions that the Va'ad views as being too lenient or not needed. So the Va'ad's relationship with the Israeli Chief Rabbinate is, at the same time, in some ways co-operative and in some ways oppositional depending on the issues it decides to take stands on.
It is also known that Tropper has an obsession with Bomzer and hates him irrationaly and obsessively (and it's poster Roni's favorite red herring to take the focus of Tropper and put it on Bomzer instead), even as Tropper and EJF, in likewise fashion to this letter, were warned and asked by the BADATS and Rav Shternbuch to stop their own proselytizations and like in this letter, all G-d-fearing rabbis were asked not to go to EJF conventions and to stay away from Tropper and the EJF because the Tropper-Kaplan "cure" for assimilation and intermarriage is worse than the disease.
Tropper-Kapaln-EJF-false messianism has now become a call to "reach out" to the estimated two billion in the humnan race (a third) to take an interest in Judaism and becomes Jews, all with EJF's help and sponsorship, see the latest post about this at EJF - offers enlightenment to non-Jews from Basics of the Jewish Faith by Art Gib...About the Author:- Eternal Jewish Family (http://eternaljewishfamily.blogspot.com) offers information on Jewish conversion. Art Gib is a freelance writer and many more such articles and infomercials pushing the EJF strategy of openly recruiting potentially infinite numbers of goying to Yiddishkeit = proselytization.
No doubt after they give "Halachik conversions" to the 2 billion "doubtfuls" they will then have to give conversions to the rest who are married or related to the 2 billion doubfuls as well as per the EJF "policy" of converting "gentile spouse" and soon, thanks to EJF the Earth over 6 billion humans will all become Jews and Troppre will then beat not just the last Lubavitcher Rebbe, but also Shabtai Tzvi and Jesus who all preached, in varying degrees, new inclusive doctrines to bring recruits to Judaism and to universalize the appeal of Judaism as Tropper's and EJF's latest ads by "Art Gib" are doing on the Internet.
So now for some questions:
*Besides Rav Eisenstein, who else rules with him on the Va'ad HaOlami?
*Are there any "checks and balances" built into the Va'ad and Bais Din, like an oversight committee or an executive committee? Does it even have lay leaders or a lay group it can say it represents? Or do they always act like a seemingly self-appointed prosecutor-judge-executioner seemingly acting without due process (even though they may not mean it this way and are acting Leshem Shomayim), just the my-way-or-the-highway-philosophy that Tropper (and maybe even Rav Eisenstien) favor? No wonder these two are not getting along as time goes by! (American yeshivas have many internal committees and balebatim watching them. While the Israeli Rabbanut is open to both influence and attack from the left and from the right.)
*Who OFFICIALLY constitutes this Va'ad? (Does it have a mailing list open to the public?)
*How does one join? (By coming to EJF seminars at spas all expenses paid by Tom Kaplan or just telling Rav Eisenstein that one likes what he has to say?)
*Are members more than yes-men to Rabbi Eisenstein and perhaps Tropper?
*Who officially recognizes this Va'ad IN WRITING on official stationary? (We are living in the 21st century and paper and ink are dirt cheap)
*Who are its official and registered members? (Can anyone produce an official list?) Does it hold regular meetings with its members (not just at free airfare-luxury-hotels-all-expenses-paid Kaplan sponsored EJF events.)
*Does it in fact have such any lists (besides the rabbis it wants to ban) at all?
*Can any rabbi that comes to the Va'ad at any given time, or that the Va'ad approaches anytime about anything, just "sign on" to any letter or decree that the Va'ad, evidently run by Rav Eisenstein alone wants? This seems to have heppened here.
*Its "American office" is given as a "P.O. Box" address, that not even the IRS would accept as an official entity for an organization that claims to be in America, unless all the mail just gets sent to Rav Eisenstein in Israel and there is no official American or other branch. (Why do they think people are so stupid and won't ask basic and obvious questions?)
*If Rav Eisenstein reminds all that he is speaking for Rav Eliashiv, then why do Rav Eliashiv's name or signature not appear on these written letters or decrees nor on its letterheads? (Printers are cheap and easy to come by.)
Rav Eisensteien is one of the few people in the world who has daily access to Rav Eliashiv so it should not be that hard for him to get Rav Eliashiv to sign decrees destroying rabbis. If Rav Eliashiv can sign so many announcements and if Rav Eisenstein has such a close relationship with Rav Eliashiv, and since this is a matter of such importance, it is surely not enough to have a letter drawn up by Rav Eisenstein alone with a few scraggly signatures, including that of Tropper, making the letter near-to-worthless in may people's learned and astute eyes, but as should have been the case, this letter should have been signed by Rav Eliashiv himself so that no doubt be cast that this is a contrived agenda to "bump off" yet another Modern Orthodox rabbi, as Tropper plotted and contrived against Slifkin or as Rav Eisenstein did when he deliberately "bumped off" the MO and RCA contingenet at the early EJF conference by disqualifying their credentials to serve as dayanim on conversion Batei Din. It's known that Rav Eisenstein hates Modern Orthodoxy, so it's really no real wonder, yet the questions must be asked out of all fairness to "the accused" who deserves better than yet another round of "Tropper-(in)justice".
*Why is this letter from the Va'ad Haolami LinYanei Giur ONLY? Why isn't there a stronger letter or pesak from the BAIS DIN Leinyanei Giur of the same organization, that may have had greater Halachik significance as a letter from a Bais Din (as the letters from the BADATS did when they came out against Tropper and EJF), but this is a letter from an organization, and organizations are a dime a dozen, and since this is such a grievous matter,and that Rav Eisenstein chose to come out with a letter from the ORGANIZATION but NOT from the BAIS DIN, both of which he is runs. Why?
*How does Rav Eisenstein expect to be respected or heard or obeyed when Bomzer or anyone could come out with letters from their Orthodox rabbinic organizations he runs or heads, see below? (This is the recipe for civil war between Orthodox organizations not just in Israel but now also in America, and it's not pretty.)
Concerning the singnatories:
*Who are they (besides Tropper and Rav Eisenstein)? Can someone please list the exact names of the signers and what their official rabbinic positions are?
*Who recognizes them?
*Why so few? Why didn't others, like the whole Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of Agudah in America sign it?
*Why do these signatories have any special "power" to make this letter and declaration?
*Why should any rabbi listen to them when they are not known to most people even? (Does every last rov know who Tropper or Rabbi Eisenstein are? It's doubtful, but with each PR piece and EJF infomercial their names are getting around. Is that the way Charedi rabbis normally get their names known and views across?)
About Rabbi Bomzer:
The letter speaks for itself and makes some noteworthy points worth taking to heart. Rabbi Bomzer is facing aserious situation and has a lot of thinking to do. But it's doubtful he will be intimidated by these strong arm tactics. He is too battle-hardended and too established for that.
But since this is now a very public matter concerning the reputation, credentials, actions, and alleged problems with a notable Orthodox rabbi, one should also present a somewhat broader picture of the man ("justice should not only be done, it should be seen to be done") in the context of his life and not make it appear as Tropper wants to do to distract from his own problems, that Bomzer is the "most wicked man on Earth" (which he is certainly not) while Tropper is the new "rashkebehag" lo aleinu!
Simply by Googling:
*Bomzer is retired from the pulpit he held at the Young Israel of Ocean Parkway and he teaches Talmud at YU. He is a talmid chochem and not the cynical dope Roni/Tropper portrays him as. He was the long time rabbi of the Young Israel of Ocean Parkway that is right next door to the Mirrer Yeshiva on Ocean Parkway.
*He is one of the late Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik's oldest disciples.
*Bomzer refers to himself as a Rosh Yeshiva at Yeshiva University, as in this VIN article, Jan 04, 2009 also from from The Jewish Press.
*He is listed on YU's site as "Herbert W. Bomzer, Assistant Professor of Talmud. BA, MA, EdD, Yeshiva University; Ordination, Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary."
*He is one of the heads of IGUD HARABONIM (a somewhat pro-Lubavitch rabbinical association,) see Vos Iz Nei'as: "At the last Igud Rosh Chodesh meeting, President of the Board of Rabbi of Flatbush, Rabbi Herbert W. Bomzer, noted that he has served as a congregational rabbi for decades, as well as a long-serving rosh yeshiva at Yeshiva University..."
*He has a doctorate (also his book The Kolel in America".
*He is noted as: "Rabbi Dr. Herbert W. (Chaim Zev) Bomzer, Pres., Vaad HaRabonim of Flatbush."
*Bomzer went to the the last Lubavitcher Rebbe's farbrengens where the Rebbe would sometimes greet him publicly. See "Rabbi Herbert Bomzer, in his 1996 book The Chosen Road, chronicles the trials and tribulations, the courage and the sacrifices of many of these gerim (converts). There was no one more qualified for this task than the author, since for over three decades, by request of the Rabbinical Council of America and with the blessing of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, he has been involved in every aspect of gerus, from the initial, hesitant request by the applicant, through the intense learning process to the final joyous moment of acceptance into the Jewish world..."
"Bomzer has also published a few books. "The Kolel in America" (was his PhD disertation in 1984 published by Shengold Publishers. 1986) and "The Chosen Road" (Shengold Publishers, 1996) review and more about Bomzer from The Jewish Press: "An anecdotal approach to explaining the process of conversion to Judaism, by one of the leading rabbis in the U.S...stories of geyrut (conversion) experiences in the lives of people who have joined the Jewish faith. The stories include the experiences of people from the former Soviet Union, from Israel, and the United States."
*Bomzer has been involved in the conversions of some very notable converts see The Jewish Week in 1999 also at Torah Judaism
This gives some broader sense of Bomzer. He is in atough situation with the Charedim but that does not mean that he does not deserve his day in court to give his view (which so far, no poster here has really done.)
For the record:
*I have never met Bomzer and I have nothing to do with him.
*I have never sent anyone to him for conversions and I have absolutely no official or unofficial connections with him.
What empty hogwash. The signatories are vaaried leading rabbonim and dayonim from a wide spectrum and the put their name to this notice and warning. They state that they know they are signing above their signature. They affirm that his conversions are menignless. that they know of his fake sheninigans. All your fluff and puff about "vaad" nd "beis din" bobeh maysses does not hold water in halacha. We have rabbis signing that they rule that his convesions are fradulent. All your bobeh wikipedias and amrican law and acrobatics and your fake and dishonest stance of defending him and attacking tropper at the same time...will not erase a simple fact:
ReplyDeletebomzer brings goyim into klal yisroel. his illustrous past notwitsstanding does not help the situation. The charge is what the nidon presently at stake. All haskomos in the world will not validate covnersions without kabbalat hamitzvot, for money. And all your acrobatics about rtopper's false mssianism and other irrational outbursts will not raise his crime to breining GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL; AND BOMZER BRINGS GOYIM TO KLAL YISROEL AND is also assisted by anyone who helps him directly or indirectly (by sending him covnerts for "$$$ for this or that holy ause). All are oyver in lifney iver loy titen michshol!
Here's what I don't understand:
ReplyDeleteBecause R' Bomzer supposedly does fake conversions, that means R' Tropper can do whatever he wants as long as it's not explicitly against halacha and he declares it to be not as bad as what R' Bomzer's doing? R' Bomzer's supposed actions justify proselytizing Gentiles, maintaining that anybody who holds the world's older than 6000 years is unworthy for the dayanus, holding that gentiles who think that Chazal made a mistake should not be converted [!?]...and these standards must be implemented universally?!
(I vote/request that RaP's last comment be promoted to a post)
"Here's what I don't understand:
ReplyDeleteBecause R' Bomzer supposedly does fake conversions, that means R' Tropper can do whatever he wants as long as it's not explicitly against halacha and he declares it to be not as bad as what R' Bomzer's doing?"
I'll try to explain:
1)Those who are so worried about non-halachik infractions(about conversions;) should rile up when the real crimes are performed. When those would do so, we would know that they are motivated to remedy the ills and not for ulterior motives. The irony is Baruch, that not only, don't we see them protesting the real crimes of bringing goyim into klal yisroel; but they actually defended the Rabbis who performed this act. (See for example RaP defending HB doe converting a shikssah so that her boss can marry her and he can abandon his wife and children. See him defending Bomzer for taking 10,000$ for a conversion. See him turning his chollent acrobatics to defend Bomzer from a clear notinification and warning by leading Dayanim and Rabbis about the false conversions performed by Bomzer).
2) Most importantly: Bomze'rs actions (and actually there are MANY such fake dayanim who convert for a business or at least do not require the convert to commit to observe torah and mtizvot)is one of the main reasons that EJf was created: to establish a STANDARD of conversion that up till now was neglected by the general public. The magnitude of the crime by the fake dayanim and the tragedy of bringing goyim into klal yisroel is a "Chet chamur" (very severe sin) and our Rabbis establish in our tradition, that at times it is permissible and at times commanded to make a "shet kal" to prevent and stop a chet chamur! SO, if what is needed to prevent the prospective converts not to turn to the fake rabbis but to turn to the kosher ones' and to the kosher standard is a chet kal, of seeking those sincere one to follow the right path and maknug sure that those who are not aware of the right path at least know that the wrong path does not fulfill their desire to become jewish, so be it. Our illustirous rabbis in the past centuries have ruled that one may perhaps violate some of the rabbinical prohibitions (like for instance: not to convert someone for the sake of marriage) as long as the person would commit himself to live a jewish life, ie. a life dictated by the code of jewish law!
"*He is one of the heads of IGUD HARABONIM (a somewhat pro-Lubavitch rabbinical association,) see Vos Iz Nei'as: "At the last Igud Rosh Chodesh meeting, President of the Board of Rabbi of Flatbush, Rabbi Herbert W. Bomzer, noted that he has served as a congregational rabbi for decades, as well as a long-serving rosh yeshiva at Yeshiva University..."
ReplyDeleteR. Bomzer is not a head of the Igud, and even if he was, the Igud is not much to write home about these days, it's pretty small, has greatly declined since its glory days years ago.
Roni says (falsely) about my comments, and it just shows how below the belt Roni/Troper work and manipulate:
ReplyDelete"See for example RaP defending HB doe converting a shikssah so that her boss can marry her and he can abandon his wife and children."
RaP: Nowhere did I defend Bomzer for "converting a shiksa" -- I would not stoop so low, maybe Troper knows about shiksas more than most people to talk like this about anyone, but nowhere have I ever stooped (like some posters have done) to point out personal accusations at Troper from his failed marriages and other well known incidents.
Roni/Troper doesn't have the first clue about civilized debating because as is well known, Roni/Troper comes on hard and heavy with "Halachik" phraseology to cover up his own "crimes" (to use his lingo) of reaching out to convert potentially two billion goyim, and their spouses naturally, so that makes it four billion goyim that will follow Roni/Troper and ejf, and they call other people names for pointing out their stupidity.
"See him defending Bomzer for taking 10,000$ for a conversion."
RaP: Nope, nowhere have I defended Bomzer because he takes money. By the way, what is the proof for the allegation? What is the "standard fee" for a conversion program worldwide in any case? I have absolutely no idea what it costs or what potential geirim have to pay their teachers and rabbis for all the education and services to educate them. And talk of alleged corruption, it's a joke that poster Roni/Troper makes fun of Bomzer for taking money when dayanim of the best and finest batei din are known to be held captive of very wealthy men when they support them in either obtaining a coerced get or refusing to give one timeously.
There is plenty of corruption in Batei Din unfortunately as most people are aware, and it's not just in gerus or gitin. But why go down this path as it detracts from the main point about what Troper and his ejf are up to with all their kuntzim as they yell at Bomzer and the world.
"See him turning his chollent acrobatics to defend Bomzer from a clear notinification and warning by leading Dayanim and Rabbis about the false conversions performed by Bomzer"
RaP: Nope, I asked basic and clear-cut questions. Anybody has this right. It's a free world. There is no kefia datit or a Charedi world government led by Troper yet and may Hashem prevent it from ever happening unless it's the true Mashiach.
We know that the BADATS represents the well-established Eidah Hachareidis and that Rav Shternbuch was chosen by them to sit on their long-established communal Bais Din (the BADATS), but who exactly does Vaad HaOlami represent if you subtract the holy name of Rav Eliashiv? Which community? These are fair questions and if you are going to go to war with the MO world by picking on a man like Bomzer who is connected to the Modern Orthodox, YU, RCA, Young Israel world (and it's NOT a "chollent" to point that out) then let's hear who the Vaad Haolami is talking for.
Rav Reuven Feinstein works in Staten Island, NY and has a home on the Lower East Side in Manhattan. Is that who he is talking for? Troper lives in Monsey, do theall support him in his ejf escapades? Rav Eisenstein is from Chicago and Israel, do the Jews of Chicago and all Israel support Rav Eisenstein like Rav Shternbuch and the BADATS are fully supported by the well-estbalished and well known and well defined Eidah HaChareidis of Yerushalayim that has world-wide recognition and support among the most serious Charedi and Chasidic sectors.
As for the rest of Roni/Troper's point 2, it's all a well-oiled and well practiced argument that he keeps repeating like a mantra as if he thinks that simply because he is saying it over in, oh so lomdishe loshen, and repeatedly yet at high volume as Roni/Troper like to yell and not talk like mentshen, that people don't see through the falshkeit and boich sevora that it is?
Such things require greater clarifications from BIGGER gedolim to say such things (P.S. Troper and Rav Eisenstein are NOT gedolim, they are rabbis) and even if Rav Eliashiv, or Rav Shteiman or Rav Kanievsky would dare to say such a chutzpadikke chiddush, which THEY DO NOT, we would say to them, you need to be bigger gedolim to come up with such "heterim" to "mekarev goyim" hitched to Yidden.
One would need at least an EARLY ACHARON, like the RAMO or the MECHABER or the MAHARAL or the RAV's SHULCHAN ORUCH to say EXPLICITLY what Roni/Troper is trying to shove down everyone's throat as he intimidates people with the usual verbal bullying, but since NOT A SINGLE ACHARON or even anyone has written to come up with a "heter" for ejf.
It's just the cowardly anonymous Roni/Troper who is trying to shove and sneak in a "halachic" ruling That nobody has explicitly staed nor endorsed in any way) through the back door of a blog like this, shame on him!
NO-ONE, in all of Jewish history, has ever dared to say what Roni/Troper is saying, and certainly no gadol today would dare say with a full mouth and with bak tzener such a ludicrous "heter" and "sevora" to justify the luring and preslytization of pure goyim, we are fully justified to tell post Roni/Troper to go fly a kite, because you are being megaleh ponim baTorah SHELO Kehalacha and you are guilty of apikursus and you should be put in cherem and as the BADATS has rightfully called for, Roni/Troper must be stopped dead in tracks and ejf and its entrapments must be stopped and all yerei shomayaim should stay away from it like the poison that it is! "Chet chammur" and "chet kal" Feh! A nechtigen tog, or as they say in Americanese, go tell it to the Marines.
Roni says (falsely) about my comments, and it just shows how below the belt Roni/Troper work and manipulate:
ReplyDelete"See for example RaP defending HB doe converting a shikssah so that her boss can marry her and he can abandon his wife and children."
RaP: Nowhere did I defend Bomzer for "converting a shiksa" -- I would not stoop so low, maybe Troper knows about shiksas more than most people to talk like this about anyone, but nowhere have I ever stooped (like some posters have done) to point out personal accusations at Troper from his failed marriages and other well known incidents.
Bomzer is the one who converts shikasse secretaries! and you go on about Tropper. And isten now, anytime you will mention what others have posted about tropper's failed marriages and you flase honesty about not mentioning it and yet you mention it now! and add falsely "marriages" will bring about the Bomzer Mondrowitz accomplice where Bomzer defended him the known child molester!!!
" Roni/Troper doesn't have the first clue about civilized debating because as is well known, Roni/Troper comes on hard and heavy with "Halachik" phraseology to cover up his own "crimes" (to use his lingo) of reaching out to convert potentially two billion goyim, and their spouses naturally, so that makes it four billion goyim that will follow Roni/Troper and ejf, and they call other people names for pointing out their stupidity."
Here the chollent maker starts again with his farkrmute irrational treatises with no subsntace whatsoever. As if Trooper already covnerted millions of people druing the past four years. RAP/BOmzer bring you out to la la land and ferdrey you a kop to make tropper sound as the serial murderer. You are totally out of any proportion' espeically when you pooh pooh a man who bought lots of goyim into klal yisroel adn hail, a man who lives in olam hopuch (whose only rationale for such a distorted farkrumte view is the self motivation, where he encountered EJf alerting candidates (who would go to his buddy HB and split the pie) that a conversion without kabbalt hamitzvot or performed by those who do not ask for it is meaningless) or another self motivation where $$$ comes in the way of rational thinknig and distorts the normalcy of one's perception ubilshon hakossuv "ki hashochad yeaver"...
"See him defending Bomzer for taking 10,000$ for a conversion."
"RaP: Nope, nowhere have I defended Bomzer because he takes money. By the way, what is the proof for the allegation? What is the "standard fee" for a conversion program worldwide in any case? I have absolutely no idea what it costs or what potential geirim have to pay their teachers and rabbis for all the education and services to educate them."
You did pooh pooh the criticism of someone for a case where BOmzer took this amount of money.
And what are you insinuating now, that 10,000$ is not an exorbitant amount of money for conversion???
": And talk of alleged corruption, it's a joke that poster Roni/Troper makes fun of Bomzer for taking money when dayanim of the best and finest batei din are known to be held captive of very wealthy men when they support them in either obtaining a coerced get or refusing to give one timeously"
talk about chollent!?!: Are you now defending bomzer's conversion because you other batey dinim (not ttropper's conversion program) take lots of money for dinay torah?!? or gittin? Does that make his intake of goyim anymore Jewish??? For the time being Tropper's daysnim do NOT take 10,000$ for a gerut. Bomzer occasinally does. Even 3,600$ is an exxageration. Even 1,800$ is an exxageration. HOw much mroe so 10 or 18 thousand dollars. And the discussion hewre is the intake of goyim! A dayan who takes exorbitant money for his gerut; his conversion are NULL AND VOID!!
"There is plenty of corruption in Batei Din unfortunately as most people are aware, and it's not just in gerus or gitin."
non sequitor! as usual by the Rap/Bomzer chollent maker. Does thsat kasher bomzer's gerut?
"But why go down this path as it detracts from the main point about what Troper and his ejf are up to with all their kuntzim as they yell at Bomzer and the world".
EJF's kuntzim does NOT invalidate the gerus performed by his batey dinim, as long as his batey dinim make sure that the candidate accepts to commit to mitzvot which they do! (and according to hater Rap/bomzer with "holier-than-thou requirements, at the end of the day they require kabbalt hamitzvot) and as long as they do not ask for exorbitant amount of m oney. IF they will you will be entitled to make the same criticism as I make toward bomzer.
The poimnt: The criticism leveled is about goyim that Bomzer brings which is the REAL DANGER! Ejf's batey dinim do not carry this crime.
"See him turning his chollent acrobatics to defend Bomzer from a clear notinification and warning by leading Dayanim and Rabbis about the false conversions performed by Bomzer"
" RaP: Nope, I asked basic and clear-cut questions. Anybody has this right. It's a free world. There is no kefia datit or a Charedi world government led by Troper yet and may Hashem prevent it from ever happening unless it's the true Mashiach."
AS if those wuestions, touch about the core of the issue: that bomzer is a "converter" that brings goyim to klal yisroel. No amount of "questions" will touch the fact that many rabbis signed their name to condemntation of the nature that bomzer's conversions are without kabbalat mitzvot and that he brings goyim to kal yisorel. Any "question" that vades this issue is a veiled defnse of this fake converter.
"
We know that the BADATS represents the well-established Eidah Hachareidis and that Rav Shternbuch was chosen by them to sit on their long-established communal Bais Din (the BADATS)"
Tey do not represent charedi positions on issues other kashrut! IT is very well known in many issues, like voting in israeli elections and a multitude of issues.
" but who exactly does Vaad HaOlami represent if you subtract the holy name of Rav Eliashiv? Which community? "
Name sof chashuver and prominent rabbis and dayanim from various palces is what counts in this letter and you have people lik Rav MOshe SOloveitchik adn Rav WEiss condemning Bomzer.
"These are fair questions and if you are going to go to war with the MO world by picking on a man like Bomzer who is connected to the Modern Orthodox, YU, RCA, Young Israel world "
Straw man and non sequitor: the rabbis clearly stated in this letter the allegation that they charge him for bringing goyim into klal yisroel, he does reequire kabbalat mitzvot and takes exorbitant money for his "conversions". Nothing to do with MO YU RCA. IT is a "Red herring" to borrow your phrase and a chollenmt to mux this in the discussion. You are a champion in making thes chollents and red herrings. Look they attack also Yehuda Stein. He is probably a "haredi" and they attacak in the same letteR!
"(and it's NOT a "chollent" to point that out) then let's hear who the Vaad Haolami is talking for."
The people who signed the ltetter, the choshuver Rabbonim speak for themmselves (more than RaP speaks for BOmzer).
" Rav Reuven Feinstein works in Staten Island, NY and has a home on the Lower East Side in Manhattan. Is that who he is talking for?"
AS if you ask a tiyuvta?! RRF canot convene with VH for Gerut because he is here and LT is there and RE is from chicago does that mean what? What is your point?
THe rabbis who signed on the letter speak for themselves. They hav heard evidence anough to charge Bomzer with these crimes. They rabbis put their name that he is unfiit to a gerut dayan. PEriod. All cholents wil not erase this FACT!
"and the BADATS are fully supported by the well-estbalished and well known and well defined Eidah HaChareidis of Yerushalayim that has world-wide recognition and support among the most serious Charedi and Chasidic sectors".
YEs, but Rav Reuven FEinstein and Rav Eisenstein and Dayan Ehrentrau and Rav Kook disagree respectfully with them! on this issue!
"As for the rest of Roni/Troper's point 2, it's all a well-oiled and well practiced argument that he keeps repeating like a mantra as if he thinks that simply because he is saying it over in, oh so lomdishe loshen, and repeatedly yet at high volume as Roni/Troper like to yell and not talk like mentshen, that people don't see through the falshkeit and boich sevora that it is?"
And your "chollent" point to address the points made IS???
"
Such things require greater clarifications from BIGGER gedolim to say such things (P.S. Troper and Rav Eisenstein are NOT gedolim, they are rabbis) and even if Rav Eliashiv, or Rav Shteiman or Rav Kanievsky would dare to say such a chutzpadikke chiddush, "
HERE AGAIN THE MASTER OF CHOLLENT AND HYPERBOLE! If they would say this chiddush, this RaP is going to call them "chutzpahdike" chiddush but his bobeh chiddushim about bomzer are not chutzpahdik! merida against shulchan oruch?!?
"which THEY DO NOT, we would say to them, you need to be bigger gedolim to come up with such "heterim" to "mekarev goyim" hitched to Yidden".
The master of false alarming statements (and pooh pooh real alarming crimes): No one claims the heter to mekarev goyim; the heter is to mekarev THE JEWISH SPOUSE get it already! (and do not make yourself as if you score a point by portraying the issue in false terms).
" One would need at least an EARLY ACHARON, like the RAMO or the MECHABER or the MAHARAL or the RAV's SHULCHAN ORUCH to say EXPLICITLY what Roni/Troper is trying to shove down everyone's throat as he intimidates people with the usual verbal bullying, but since NOT A SINGLE ACHARON or even anyone has written to come up with a "heter" for ejf."
Rav Elyashiv! stated so (as Rav Zilberstein wrote in the teshuva printed in Netzach Yisroel), Rav Reuven Feinstein agrees with this, Rav Wosner who allows his talmid Rav Stern to be a partner in the organization, Rav Shechter who stated that such an organization is long overdue (and he knew at the time that they encourage intermarried couples to convert halachikally), and the big chochom RAP tells them that if they say this it is "Chutzpah" for them to say. THe mechutzaf par excellence!!
" It's just the cowardly anonymous Roni/Troper who is trying to shove and sneak in a "halachic" ruling That nobody has explicitly staed nor endorsed in any way) through the back door of a blog like this, shame on him!"
THEY ENDORSED WITH DEEDS! Rav FEinstein is part of the halachik advisory of the organization. So is Dayan Ehrentrau and so other mentioned earlier.
" NO-ONE, in all of Jewish history, has ever dared to say what Roni/Troper is saying, and certainly no gadol today would dare say with a full mouth and with bak tzener such a ludicrous "heter" and "sevora" to justify the luring and preslytization of pure goyim, "
the irrational hyperbolic chollent maker at his best! Tell me again wHERE IS THE ISSUR in shulchan oruch to prosetyze reMOH? mECHABER? At best "we do not do not do it" by Aruch Hashluchan! nothing in shulchanoruch, REmo, Taz, Schach and other nossey kelim!
"we are fully justified to tell post Roni/Troper to go fly a kite, because you are being megaleh ponim baTorah SHELO Kehalacha and you are guilty of apikursus and you should be put in cherem"
TEll me without chollent what is the "giluy panim baorah shelopy kahalacha",
But i'll tell you that YOU are megaleh ponim batorah sheloy kahalacha by creating halochos in torah where there are not, and by defending a person who brin gs goyim to klal yisroel converting shikssah so their boss marries them, defending his conversions to good ones when they are goyim gemurim! you assist in bringing goyim into klal yisroel, so you should be put in cherem and be punished to eat the chollent that you make. as long as you do not poison klal yisroel by assisting a serial manufacter of goyim in klal yisroel!
Roni said: "Bomzer is the one who converts shikasse secretaries! and you go on about Tropper."
ReplyDeleteRaP: Bomzer may be bad, but tropere is worse, just look at the ads that ejf is now taking out, via the "freelance writers" inviting one third of the human race that "may be Jewish" according to the latest articles, inviting over two BILLION gentiles to think of joining up via ejf and becoming holier-than-thou "Halachic Jews" -- and you expect Torah Jews to swallow that just because troper is now claiming that he frightens the heck out of new converts via ejf never to become gentiles again which is not working either. The whole ejf operation and troper's krumme "learned defenses" of it are total shams and a disaster for Klal Yisroel if they well ever be allowed to come into fruition.
"And isten now, anytime you will mention what others have posted about tropper's failed marriages and you flase honesty about not mentioning it and yet you mention it now! and add falsely "marriages" will bring about the Bomzer Mondrowitz accomplice where Bomzer defended him the known child molester!!!"
RaP: And that will just be another example of how Roni/Troper widen the red herring argument and throw in everything including the kitchen sink as long as they don't have to answer OFFICIALLY on EJF stationary, not just on this blog with nice debates with Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn/da'as torah, but when will Troper/ejf send a real response to the BADATS and to Rav Shternbuch which should be the real address of Troper/ejf's responses and not on this blog.
And whwile they are about it, when will Troper/ejf get a full written haskoma from its rabbinic sponsors instead of the insults to others and the pilpulim to tie down Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn that still don't answer the basic questions of why Troper/ejf don't have a written haskoma from anyone and why they do not respond in a bekovadikke and suitable manner to the BADATS, just as Rav Sherman had at least the brains to write a full-bodied teshuva and response to smack down Rabbi Drukman (even if it was done in a rather brutal way, without giving Rabbi Drukman a chance to present his views in full) at least Rav Sherman came up with a written teshuva unlike Troper and ejf who leave it up to blogger Roni to hack in kop and make a total nuisance of himself, never giving an inch, like a zombie in motion.
"As if Trooper already covnerted millions of people druing the past four years."
RaP: Yeah, and now according to the latest ejf PR hype, they are hoping, planning and proselytizing to at least two BILLION people who may be Jewish on Earth and then they have spouses so that makes it four billion that ejf is gunning for, and all this is in writing as Roni/Troper tries to distract people with rants and raves against this and that or whatnot. Sheer chutzpah and madness.
"RAP/BOmzer bring you out to la la land and ferdrey you a kop to make tropper sound as the serial murderer."
RaP: Twist it anyway you want and come up with the worst descriptions, like "serial murderer" (by the way how do we know he isn't one?) in Halacha someone who shames his fellow man is like a murderer and Troper has no qualms and no no hesitation in humiliating and shaming people that is no different to murder according to chazal.
"You are totally out of any proportion' espeically when you pooh pooh a man who bought lots of goyim into klal yisroel adn hail, a man who lives in olam hopuch (whose only rationale for such a distorted farkrumte view is the self motivation, where he encountered EJf alerting candidates (who would go to his buddy HB and split the pie) that a conversion without kabbalt hamitzvot or performed by those who do not ask for it is meaningless) or another self motivation where $$$ comes in the way of rational thinknig and distorts the normalcy of one's perception ubilshon hakossuv "ki hashochad yeaver"..."
RaP: I don't poo-poo nor Hail anybody, but ANY man is entitled to a fair trial. I have cited many postives about Troper over the last year on this blog, in his kiruv work and I have agreed with his hashkofa against Slifkin (but not in his deceptive methods to attack Slifkin) and since Roni/Troper is subjecting Bomzer to an online execution without a fair trial, even the guilty Nazis at Nuremburg were given a fair trial, it is only fair and just that as many facts about Bomzer be laid on the table so that people get to see a fuller picture and not just the evil "criminal" caricature that poster Roni/Troper like to willfully depict in smear-tactics fashion. This is Torah, one may say? Is it only about a merciless Halacha, how about the derech eretz kadma leTorah aspect of Torah to go with it and that is not evident in anything poster Roni or Rabbi tropper do or say nor is it evident in the style and tone of this purported "letter of rebuke" that fails because it is assumes that everyone will buy into its fear-and-smear tactics that Troper favors and that just plain stinks, without any great lomdus or chochma, it's a rotten fish as it stands and these learned rabbis will have to learn to do things in a more mentsclichdikke an derech eretdikke way (the USA and New York City are NOT like the back alleys of Yerushalayim where people can be bumped off in the middle of the night with false posts and hateful and hate-filled pashkvillim) and not like the Troper bull in a Chinashop non-methodology
Where did Troper learn all this kind of dirty below the belt street thuggery excuse for a machlokes?
Which yeshiva taught Troper to behave like such a boor?
Who was Troper's rebbe in intimidation and heavy-handedness?
Was it in Telz or by Rav Sheinberg where Troper learned?
It seems like a mighty great disturbance, which is what Troper constantly causes as he careens through life and it is neither pleasent nor pleasing.
Remember: Drecheha darchei no'am? and "...ohev shalom and rodef sholom"? instead of Troper's constant verbal violence and bruising hateful attacks on people that he hates in serial fashion indeed, too many to be mentioned, MO rabbis, Chabad, Aish HaTorah even the BADATS as long as they are not what "he" wants like a kind in a state of perpetual tantrums.
Emotionally Troper is probabaly not past his "terrible twos" and he needs to grow up or the world will come crashing down on him even more than it has so far!
"You did pooh pooh the criticism of someone for a case where BOmzer took this amount of money."
RaP: You jump from "defending" to "poo-pooing" and that's quite different when in fact I did neither. My main point is to always see things in context and what I said was that Bomzer is not the cause of all these people coming to him. He is not the source for assimiation and for the breakdowns of marriages in the MO or Syrian communities where they unfortunately play fast and loose with their morals (Charedim are not innocent either...).
These people come to his door and he must choose what to do with some of them, I would not want to be in his shoes. That is why I have never been involved with conversions but that does not mean that one should resort to unfair tactics to dirty and smear people Troper decided are on his hit list. Someone should defang Troper and send him back to his humble roots and yeshiva in Monsey and not help him come up with his grandiose ideas and defend them with pilpulim shel hevel about how it's quite ok al pi Torah, lo aleinu, to now recruit goyim to Klal Yisrole r"l by the billions "because nowhere in Halacha does it forbid it" about as krum and stupid as you can get!
"And what are you insinuating now, that 10,000$ is not an exorbitant amount of money for conversion???"
RaP: You tell me, I have no idea. But evidently the Troper/Kaplan duo think it's ok to shell out tens of millions to advertise and have PR and sponsor fully catered events to wine and dine goyim hitched to Jews to proselytize to them hoping they will convert. The very idea stinks and is stupid too!
"Are you now defending bomzer's conversion because you other batey dinim (not ttropper's conversion program) take lots of money for dinay torah?!? or gittin? Does that make his intake of goyim anymore Jewish??? For the time being Tropper's daysnim do NOT take 10,000$ for a gerut. Bomzer occasinally does. Even 3,600$ is an exxageration. Even 1,800$ is an exxageration. HOw much mroe so 10 or 18 thousand dollars. And the discussion hewre is the intake of goyim! A dayan who takes exorbitant money for his gerut; his conversion are NULL AND VOID!!"
RaP: The only point, is that Bomzer is not the only person with a beit din allegedly on the take. The whole system is riddled with problems like this. I am not justifying anything.
"non sequitor! as usual by the Rap/Bomzer chollent maker. Does thsat kasher bomzer's gerut?"
RaP: Ah, you will never tire of bringing up Bomzer will you? It is so tiresome to talk to someone who is arguing so obssessively, like trying to have a debate with an accuser in the Inquisition or in one of Stalin's Bolshevic courts who wishes to have only a one way "discussion" -- his way! Sorry, but a cultured and civilized debate with give and take does not go that way, but you wouldn't know would you, you are trained to only go for the kill with a leave no prisoners approach. Nuts!
"EJF's kuntzim does NOT invalidate the gerus performed by his batey dinim, as long as his batey dinim make sure that the candidate accepts to commit to mitzvot which they do! (and according to hater Rap/bomzer with "holier-than-thou requirements, at the end of the day they require kabbalt hamitzvot) and as long as they do not ask for exorbitant amount of m oney. IF they will you will be entitled to make the same criticism as I make toward bomzer.
The poimnt: The criticism leveled is about goyim that Bomzer brings which is the REAL DANGER! Ejf's batey dinim do not carry this crime."
RaP: Do not be a selective debater and hence a liar! ejf's PLAN is to bring BILLIONS of "converted" goyim into Klal Yisroel, forget the so-called "ejf batei dinim", they don't have any really, just one hired-gun for the job in Monsey under Troper's thumb. This is the Roni chollent maker at HIS best making up things that are not true. Troper went around convincing batei din to agree to be on his list but he does not run them and they are not answerable to him or to ejf in any way. Such hogwash Roni likes to sell as concocted "Torah misinai" and he thinks people are stupid as long as he can scream and shout "Bomzer, Bomzer" like "liar, liar" and drey Rabbi Eidensohn a kop with his Poilishe pilpulim shel hevel!!
"AS if those wuestions, touch about the core of the issue: that bomzer is a "converter" that brings goyim to klal yisroel. No amount of "questions" will touch the fact that many rabbis signed their name to condemntation of the nature that bomzer's conversions are without kabbalat mitzvot and that he brings goyim to kal yisorel. Any "question" that vades this issue is a veiled defnse of this fake converter."
RaP: Call Bomzer any name you want, but the group must identify itself and set up its credibility clearly BEFORE they come to condemn anyone and not act like a bunch of seeming mercenaries out on a duck shoot. Justice must not only be done, it must also be seen to be done, but obviosly you skipped that lesson when they were teaching you character assassination in the dark side alleys you grew up in.
"We know that the BADATS represents the well-established Eidah Hachareidis and that Rav Shternbuch was chosen by them to sit on their long-established communal Bais Din (the BADATS)"
Tey do not represent charedi positions on issues other kashrut! IT is very well known in many issues, like voting in israeli elections and a multitude of issues."
RaP: So now troper is the liberal Zionist as well. What a joke. Troper is as Charedi, if not more in his positions than the Eidah Hachareidis and by his example of ignoring them he is setting the WORST example to all his disciples and followers that you don't have to listen to bais din, even if it's the BADATS itself! And the BADATS deals with lots more than kashrus issues, a claim that belittles them, like saying that Troper only deals with "baal teshuvas and geirim" so what makes him so great?
"but who exactly does Vaad HaOlami represent if you subtract the holy name of Rav Eliashiv? Which community? "
Name sof chashuver and prominent rabbis and dayanim from various palces is what counts in this letter and you have people lik Rav MOshe SOloveitchik adn Rav WEiss condemning Bomzer."
RAP: Please write out their names IN FULL, what they head, and who they represent. That is a simple request. Thank you.
"These are fair questions and if you are going to go to war with the MO world by picking on a man like Bomzer who is connected to the Modern Orthodox, YU, RCA, Young Israel world "
Straw man and non sequitor: the rabbis clearly stated in this letter the allegation that they charge him for bringing goyim into klal yisroel, he does reequire kabbalat mitzvot and takes exorbitant money for his "conversions". Nothing to do with MO YU RCA. IT is a "Red herring" to borrow your phrase and a chollenmt to mux this in the discussion. You are a champion in making thes chollents and red herrings. Look they attack also Yehuda Stein. He is probably a "haredi" and they attacak in the same letteR!"
RaP: Oh, so they can be talking about Bomzer and then throw in names like Yeedel Stein and anyone else they don't like. Everyone has people they dislike and at this rate we are going to be seeing lots more of these kinds of stupid and vengeful letters that attack people from only one point of viuew without giving the full picture. Let's hope the dayan ha'emes works better than that and not like a kangaroo court in all it's shameful "un-glory"!
"(and it's NOT a "chollent" to point that out) then let's hear who the Vaad Haolami is talking for."
The people who signed the ltetter, the choshuver Rabbonim speak for themmselves (more than RaP speaks for BOmzer)."
RaP: To repeat: Who EXACTLY are the signers please? Could you write out their names in full, what their positions are, and who they represent. Thank you.
"Rav Reuven Feinstein works in Staten Island, NY and has a home on the Lower East Side in Manhattan. Is that who he is talking for?"
AS if you ask a tiyuvta?! RRF canot convene with VH for Gerut because he is here and LT is there and RE is from chicago does that mean what? What is your point?
THe rabbis who signed on the letter speak for themselves. They hav heard evidence anough to charge Bomzer with these crimes. They rabbis put their name that he is unfiit to a gerut dayan. PEriod. All cholents wil not erase this FACT!"
RaP: And yours is a pretty neat chollent too. Now you are twisting and turning. What does it mean that since Rav Reuven Feinstein cannot make it to Israel they have to come up with half-measure nisht-debakenne michatvim shel hevel.
If Rav Eisenstein and his Va'ad wish to rule on an issue, as the BADATS did, let him convene his Bais Din and issue a ruling on the official Basi Din letterhead and not on from a stupid looking "P. O. Box" in Midwood, like Rav Meir Kahane z"l Haye"d, used to do with his JDL address sometimes.
Hopefully he will also allow Bomzer an opportunity to represent himself with a team of toanim so that true justice can be done. Hopefully the Sanhedrin will give everyone their day in court and will not turn out to be no better than Sharia law as practiced by the Ayatolas in Iran, lehavdil.
"and the BADATS are fully supported by the well-estbalished and well known and well defined Eidah HaChareidis of Yerushalayim that has world-wide recognition and support among the most serious Charedi and Chasidic sectors".
YEs, but Rav Reuven FEinstein and Rav Eisenstein and Dayan Ehrentrau and Rav Kook disagree respectfully with them! on this issue!"
RaP: No they don't! They have never issued EITHER a written support for Troper and ejf NOR have they ever responded to the BADATS or to Rav Shternbuch.
Only Troper hiding behind the multiple online shields of poster "roni/Roni" is now offering up his chollent of pilpulei shel hevel vesheker to defend himself when he sees he is in big trouble.
"Such things require greater clarifications from BIGGER gedolim to say such things (P.S. Troper and Rav Eisenstein are NOT gedolim, they are rabbis) and even if Rav Eliashiv, or Rav Shteiman or Rav Kanievsky would dare to say such a chutzpadikke chiddush, "
HERE AGAIN THE MASTER OF CHOLLENT AND HYPERBOLE! If they would say this chiddush, this RaP is going to call them "chutzpahdike" chiddush but his bobeh chiddushim about bomzer are not chutzpahdik! merida against shulchan oruch?!?"
RaP: I have made absolutely NO chiddushim about Bomzer except to request that his accusers identify themnselves in full, that Bomzer be given a chance to defend himself fully and that more details about who he is be made known and not just the accusations from one side that wishes he were dead ch"v, and that the letter is not clear enough because it is coming from a "P.O. Box" and not from an actual bais din when this is a matter of great gravity.
I am not defending anyone, but so far, we have not heard ANYTHING from Bomzer himself or a presentaion of his deeds by him and how he would defend himself halachically.
Bomzer is a talmid chochem and a teacher of Talmud and rosh yeshiva at YU, and it's known he received a mandate of sorts and public brochas from the last Lubavitcher Rebbe to do work in geirus, and he deserves at least some professional courtesy and not yellings and warnings and strong arm tactics that look like it's the mafia working and not a group of honored rabbis. This is not a "chiddush" it's just common sense that eludes Roni/Troper who thinks that the law of the jungle and brutal survival of the fittest is better.
"which THEY DO NOT, we would say to them, you need to be bigger gedolim to come up with such "heterim" to "mekarev goyim" hitched to Yidden".
The master of false alarming statements (and pooh pooh real alarming crimes): No one claims the heter to mekarev goyim; the heter is to mekarev THE JEWISH SPOUSE get it already! (and do not make yourself as if you score a point by portraying the issue in false terms)."
RaP: Such bald faced lies. Don't you read your own ejf news and material? they are now calling out to a third of humanity, two billion people and they will have spouses so that makes it four billion people to come forth and convert via EJF proselytizing. Don' underestimate the effects of egomania, delusions of grandeur and the magnetic tug of false messianism.
"One would need at least an EARLY ACHARON, like the RAMO or the MECHABER or the MAHARAL or the RAV's SHULCHAN ORUCH to say EXPLICITLY what Roni/Troper is trying to shove down everyone's throat as he intimidates people with the usual verbal bullying, but since NOT A SINGLE ACHARON or even anyone has written to come up with a "heter" for ejf."
Rav Elyashiv! stated so (as Rav Zilberstein wrote in the teshuva printed in Netzach Yisroel), Rav Reuven Feinstein agrees with this, Rav Wosner who allows his talmid Rav Stern to be a partner in the organization, Rav Shechter who stated that such an organization is long overdue (and he knew at the time that they encourage intermarried couples to convert halachikally), and the big chochom RAP tells them that if they say this it is "Chutzpah" for them to say. THe mechutzaf par excellence!!"
RaP: Yeah, right, sure, they "agree" saying that it's ok for ejf to recruit two BILLION goyim and their spouses to Yiddishkeit as long as Troper can fool, hoodwink and give out grants of ejf and Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation shochad, peshuto kemashmao, to the rabbonim (like a date-rape drug as it were) who come to eat Kaplan's forbidden fruit bait at the fancy-shmansy hotels all bedekked with his pilpulei shel sheker vehevel that are the worst of ejf/troper chollents, chazir treif ones!
"It's just the cowardly anonymous Roni/Troper who is trying to shove and sneak in a "halachic" ruling That nobody has explicitly staed nor endorsed in any way) through the back door of a blog like this, shame on him!"
THEY ENDORSED WITH DEEDS! Rav FEinstein is part of the halachik advisory of the organization. So is Dayan Ehrentrau and so other mentioned earlier."
RaP: Not enough! You seem to have no trouble being on the web and coming up with langge megilas to justify troper's new found love of gentiles hitched to Jews.
Is troper ill? Suffering from a choli hanefesh? He seems to be moshe to now mekarevim BILLIONS of goyim because he has some personal netia or deeper negius, one has to really start wondering with the way he is now mamash in love with the goyim that he is going all out to come up with all sorts of pipulei shel hevel to defend this hair-brained scheme that is of mortal danger to the Jews, all as he shouts "Bomzer, Bomzer" for a classical smokescreen to his ma'asim shel nevalah!
"NO-ONE, in all of Jewish history, has ever dared to say what Roni/Troper is saying, and certainly no gadol today would dare say with a full mouth and with bak tzener such a ludicrous "heter" and "sevora" to justify the luring and preslytization of pure goyim, "
the irrational hyperbolic chollent maker at his best! Tell me again wHERE IS THE ISSUR in shulchan oruch to prosetyze reMOH? mECHABER? At best "we do not do not do it" by Aruch Hashluchan! nothing in shulchanoruch, REmo, Taz, Schach and other nossey kelim!"
RaP: This just shows what a shotteh you are for all your citing of lomdishe sevoras. In Halacha it does NOT have to say that something is forbidden to make it so. Where does it say in the shulchan oruch that we are not allowed to rob banks or to torture people? That is the meaning of the old line, that: "where does it say in the Shulchan Oruch that I am not allowed to play with a white cat when I say over krias shema?" which you seemed to have not taken note of, while you were in thuggery school.
"we are fully justified to tell post Roni/Troper to go fly a kite, because you are being megaleh ponim baTorah SHELO Kehalacha and you are guilty of apikursus and you should be put in cherem"
TEll me without chollent what is the "giluy panim baorah shelopy kahalacha",
RaP: All of it. Every word that comes from you is sheker and dishonest. You only wish to bring billions of goyim via your cockmamy teitsch of "kabbalat ol mitzvot" and to make Troper the false messiah (like a Shabtai Tzvi and a Jesus figure r"l) over them all. This shall not come to be and it must be stopped!
"But i'll tell you that YOU are megaleh ponim batorah sheloy kahalacha by creating halochos in torah where there are not, and by defending a person who brin gs goyim to klal yisroel converting shikssah so their boss marries them, defending his conversions to good ones when they are goyim gemurim! you assist in bringing goyim into klal yisroel, so you should be put in cherem and be punished to eat the chollent that you make. as long as you do not poison klal yisroel by assisting a serial manufacter of goyim in klal yisroel!"
RaP: Whatever. You have no credibility left to say this so I will put it on my toilet paper. You/troper are the worst gangster possible, one who knows how to learn! And in such a case you have no ne'emanus inspite of trying to create your own retarded chollents to welcome billions of goyim into the Am Hashem! Shame on you!
Rap's chollent is getting more and more sour no meat there whatsoever long long long GORNISHT ZERO ZILCH
ReplyDeleteRoni said: "Bomzer is the one who converts shikasse secretaries! and you go on about Tropper."
"RaP: Bomzer may be bad, but tropere is worse, just look at the ads that ejf is now taking out, via the "freelance writers" inviting one third of the human race that "may be Jewish" according to the latest articles, inviting over two BILLION gentiles to think of joining up via ejf and becoming holier-than-thou "Halachic Jews" -- and you expect Torah Jews to swallow that just because troper is now claiming that he frightens the heck out of new converts via ejf never to become gentiles again which is not working either. The whole ejf operation and troper's krumme "learned defenses" of it are total shams and a disaster for Klal Yisroel if they well ever be allowed to come into fruition".
Roni: krummer shoteh: ALl these adds do not bring ONE GOY TO KLAL YISROEL; YOUR BUDDY BOMZER BROUGHT HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF GOYIM TO KLAL YISROEL!
"
"And isten now, anytime you will mention what others have posted about tropper's failed marriages and you flase honesty about not mentioning it and yet you mention it now! and add falsely "marriages" will bring about the Bomzer Mondrowitz accomplice where Bomzer defended him the known child molester!!!"
" RaP: And that will just be another example of how Roni/Troper widen the red herring argument and throw in everything including the kitchen sink as long as they don't have to answer OFFICIALLY on EJF stationary, not just on this blog with nice debates with Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn/da'as torah, but when will Troper/ejf send a real response to the BADATS and to Rav Shternbuch which should be the real address of Troper/ejf's responses and not on this blog".
DEAR KRUMMER: When you throw a red herring about his marriages I'll throw you about the character of your fake dayan a cover up for child molestation!
Their response is that they have clear haskomoh from many leading rabbis!
RAP" And whwile they are about it, when will Troper/ejf get a full written haskoma from its rabbinic sponsors instead of the insults to others and the pilpulim to tie down Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn that still don't answer the basic questions of why Troper/ejf don't have a written haskoma from anyone"
They have the clearest haskamah from many leading rabbiss,
"and why they do not respond in a bekovadikke and suitable manner to the BADATS',
They probably did!
" just as Rav Sherman had at least the brains to write a full-bodied teshuva and response to smack down Rabbi Drukman (even if it was done in a rather brutal way, without giving Rabbi Drukman a chance to present his views in full)"
This is the person who defends bomzer's fake gerut; wanting another chance to knock down another defender of gerut by attacking a rabbi who really fights for gerus and against fake gerut,
'"t least Rav Sherman came up with a written teshuva unlike Troper and ejf who leave it up to blogger Roni to hack in kop and make a total nuisance of himself, never giving an inch, like a zombie in motion".
Rap SAYS ZILCH AS USUAL! RAP do you am hooretz know how to respond to my halachik points? KMAT ZERO AND WITH FULL AM HORATZISHE SLOGAN STATEMENTS!
"As if Trooper already covnerted millions of people druing the past four years."
" RaP: Yeah, and now according to the latest ejf PR hype, they are hoping, planning and proselytizing to at least two BILLION people who may be Jewish on Earth and then they have spouses so that makes it four billion that ejf is gunning for, and all this is in writing as Roni/Troper tries to distract people with rants and raves against this and that or whatnot. Sheer chutzpah and madness'.
hE PROBBLY CONVERTED ALL SEVEN BILLION INHABITANTS JUST WAITING TO CONVERT rap.
"RAP/BOmzer bring you out to la la land and ferdrey you a kop to make tropper sound as the serial murderer."
" RaP: Twist it anyway you want and come up with the worst descriptions, like "serial murderer" (by the way how do we know he isn't one?) in Halacha someone who shames his fellow man is like a murderer and Troper has no qualms and no no hesitation in humiliating and shaming people that is no different to murder according to chazal"
YOU are the murderer who hAD NO QUALMS TO SHAME TROPPER FOR MONTHS AND MONTHS!
"You are totally out of any proportion' espeically when you pooh pooh a man who bought lots of goyim into klal yisroel adn hail, a man who lives in olam hopuch (whose only rationale for such a distorted farkrumte view is the self motivation, where he encountered EJf alerting candidates (who would go to his buddy HB and split the pie) that a conversion without kabbalt hamitzvot or performed by those who do not ask for it is meaningless) or another self motivation where $$$ comes in the way of rational thinknig and distorts the normalcy of one's perception ubilshon hakossuv "ki hashochad yeaver"..."
" RaP: I don't poo-poo nor Hail anybody, but ANY man is entitled to a fair trial. I have cited many postives about Troper over the last year on this blog, in his kiruv work and I have agreed with his hashkofa against Slifkin (but not in his deceptive methods to attack Slifkin) and since Roni/Troper is subjecting Bomzer to an online execution without a fair trial, even the guilty Nazis at Nuremburg were given a fair trial, it is only fair and just that as many facts about Bomzer be laid on the table so that people get to see a fuller picture and not just the evil "criminal" caricature that poster Roni/Troper like to willfully depict in smear-tactics fashion. This is Torah, one may say? Is it only about a merciless Halacha, how about the derech eretz kadma leTorah aspect of Torah to go with it and that is not evident in anything poster Roni or Rabbi tropper do or say nor is it evident in the style and tone of this purported "letter of rebuke" that fails because it is assumes that everyone will buy into its fear-and-smear tactics that Troper favors and that just plain stinks, without any great lomdus or chochma, it's a rotten fish as it stands and these learned rabbis will have to learn to do things in a more mentsclichdikke an derech eretdikke way (the USA and New York City are NOT like the back alleys of Yerushalayim where people can be bumped off in the middle of the night with false posts and hateful and hate-filled pashkvillim) and not like the Troper bull in a Chinashop non-methodology"
ZILOCH ZERO NADA !!!!
Look at the letter by the leading RAbbis who condemn Bomzer for beinging goyim into klal yisroel!
" Was it in Telz or by Rav Sheinberg where Troper learned?"
RAP's lust for smeaaring other yiddishe insitutions!
RAP:" Emotionally Troper is probabaly not past his "terrible twos" and he needs to grow up or the world will come crashing down on him even more than it has so far!"
ZERO NADA ZILCH!!
"You did pooh pooh the criticism of someone for a case where BOmzer took this amount of money."
" RaP: You jump from "defending" to "poo-pooing" and that's quite different when in fact I did neither. My main point is to always see things in context and what I said was that Bomzer is not the cause of all these people coming to him. He is not the source for assimiation and for the breakdowns of marriages in the MO or Syrian communities where they unfortunately play fast and loose with their morals (Charedim are not innocent either...)."
yES, tROPPER IS SOURCE OF ALL INTERMARRIAGE WHEN HE DIDN'T BRING GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL AND WILL NOT CONVERT IF THEY DO NOT KEEP SHABBAT ETC. BUT HOLY BOMZER WHO CONVERTS SHIKSSAHS WHOSE BOSSES FFELL IN LOVE WITH THEM AND RAN AWAY FROM FAMILY HAS YOU RMERCY!! HOW FARAKRUMT YOU ARE!!
" These people come to his door and he must choose what to do with some of them,"
He must choose Shulchan Oruch! IF Torah does not allow them to be converted that is what he must do; not follow the $$$$ TRAIL!!!
rAp: "I would not want to be in his shoes. That is why I have never been involved with conversions but that does not mean that one should resort to unfair tactics to dirty and smear people Troper decided are on his hit list."
STOP SMEARING TROPPER!!
" Someone should defang Troper and send him back to his humble roots and yeshiva in Monsey and not help him come up with his grandiose ideas and "
STOP SMEARING TROPPER!
"defend them with pilpulim shel hevel"
YOU ARE ONE BIG AM HOORETZ NOT KNOWING TO MAKE ONE NORMAL RESPONSE TO A HALACHIK POINT WITHOUT RESORTING TO SLOGANS THAT WERE TAUGHT IN YOUR CIRCLES!!!
"about how it's quite ok al pi Torah, lo aleinu, to now recruit goyim to Klal Yisrole r"l by the billions "because nowhere in Halacha does it forbid it" about as krum and stupid as you can get!"
Krummer is the one who defends bringing goyim into klal yisroel but states that encouraging intermarried couples is halachiklally forbidden or makes the biggest deal out of it when Rav MOshe sys that even something that is written in shulchan aruch (not converting leshem ishut) is not a "issur barur". But i know that in your circles they do not begin to know to handle these basic terms and resort to "megaleh ponim batorah sheloy kahalcha" without knowing the first things about halacha!
"And what are you insinuating now, that 10,000$ is not an exorbitant amount of money for conversion???"
" RaP: You tell me, I have no idea. But evidently the Troper/Kaplan duo think it's ok to shell out tens of millions to advertise and have PR and sponsor fully catered events to wine and dine goyim hitched to Jews to proselytize to them hoping they will convert. The very idea stinks and is stupid too!"
KRUMMER KOP! there is no isusr in shulchan oruch for those events; there is an issur in shluchan oruch for a dayan to collect 10,000$ for conversion!
"Are you now defending bomzer's conversion because you other batey dinim (not ttropper's conversion program) take lots of money for dinay torah?!? or gittin? Does that make his intake of goyim anymore Jewish??? For the time being Tropper's daysnim do NOT take 10,000$ for a gerut. Bomzer occasinally does. Even 3,600$ is an exxageration. Even 1,800$ is an exxageration. HOw much mroe so 10 or 18 thousand dollars. And the discussion hewre is the intake of goyim! A dayan who takes exorbitant money for his gerut; his conversion are NULL AND VOID!!"
' RaP: The only point, is that Bomzer is not the only person with a beit din allegedly on the take. The whole system is riddled with problems like this. I am not justifying anything.'
irrelevant! Just because other dayanim take lots of money will not make Bomzer's taking money anymore kosher! only in the kurmer kop of krumland RAP and his "learning" origins!
"non sequitor! as usual by the Rap/Bomzer chollent maker. Does thsat kasher bomzer's gerut?"
" RaP: Ah, you will never tire of bringing up Bomzer will you? It is so tiresome to talk to someone who is arguing so obssessively, like trying to have a debate with an accuser in the Inquisition or in one of Stalin's Bolshevic courts who wishes to have only a one way "discussion" -- his way! Sorry, but a cultured and civilized debate with give and take does not go that way, but you wouldn't know would you, you are trained to only go for the kill with a leave no prisoners approach. Nuts!"
zero nada zilch!!
"EJF's kuntzim does NOT invalidate the gerus performed by his batey dinim, as long as his batey dinim make sure that the candidate accepts to commit to mitzvot which they do! (and according to hater Rap/bomzer with "holier-than-thou requirements, at the end of the day they require kabbalt hamitzvot) and as long as they do not ask for exorbitant amount of m oney. IF they will you will be entitled to make the same criticism as I make toward bomzer.
The poimnt: The criticism leveled is about goyim that Bomzer brings which is the REAL DANGER! Ejf's batey dinim do not carry this crime."
' RaP: Do not be a selective debater and hence a liar! ejf's PLAN is to bring BILLIONS of "converted" goyim into Klal Yisroel, forget the so-called "ejf batei dinim", they don't have any really, just one hired-gun for the job in Monsey under Troper's thumb. This is the Roni chollent maker at HIS best making up things that are not true. Troper went around convincing batei din to agree to be on his list but he does not run them and they are not answerable to him or to ejf in any way. Such hogwash Roni likes to sell as concocted "Torah misinai" and he thinks people are stupid as long as he can scream and shout "Bomzer, Bomzer" like "liar, liar" and drey Rabbi Eidensohn a kop with his Poilishe pilpulim shel hevel!!"
Krummer shoteh!!The EJf's Batey dinim exist. RAv Eisenstein set them up and knows their ehrlichkeyt!! Screaming billions trillions only work in KRUMLAND; IN THE REAL WORLD WE KNOW THAT EJF CONVERTED PER CAPITA LESS THAN BOMZER!!
"AS if those wuestions, touch about the core of the issue: that bomzer is a "converter" that brings goyim to klal yisroel. No amount of "questions" will touch the fact that many rabbis signed their name to condemntation of the nature that bomzer's conversions are without kabbalat mitzvot and that he brings goyim to kal yisorel. Any "question" that vades this issue is a veiled defnse of this fake converter."
" RaP: Call Bomzer any name you want, but the group must identify itself and set up its credibility clearly BEFORE they come to condemn anyone and not act like a bunch of seeming mercenaries out on a duck shoot. Justice must not only be done, it must also be seen to be done, but obviosly you skipped that lesson when they were teaching you character assassination in the dark side alleys you grew up in."
ZERO ZILCH NADA!!!
"We know that the BADATS represents the well-established Eidah Hachareidis and that Rav Shternbuch was chosen by them to sit on their long-established communal Bais Din (the BADATS)"
Tey do not represent charedi positions on issues other kashrut! IT is very well known in many issues, like voting in israeli elections and a multitude of issues."
" RaP: So now troper is the liberal Zionist as well. What a joke. Troper is as Charedi, if not more in his positions than the Eidah Hachareidis and by his example of ignoring them he is setting the WORST example to all his disciples and followers that you don't have to listen to bais din, even if it's the BADATS itself! And the BADATS deals with lots more than kashrus issues, a claim that belittles them, like saying that Troper only deals with "baal teshuvas and geirim" so what makes him so great?"
SHOTEH FROM KRUMLAND!!TROPPER HAS BACKING FROM CHAREDI RABBIS!!
"but who exactly does Vaad HaOlami represent if you subtract the holy name of Rav Eliashiv? Which community? "
Name sof chashuver and prominent rabbis and dayanim from various palces is what counts in this letter and you have people lik Rav MOshe SOloveitchik adn Rav WEiss condemning Bomzer."
RAP: Please write out their names IN FULL, what they head, and who they represent. That is a simple request. Thank you.
It is plain stupid!! RAv REuven FEinstein, RAv KKook, Dayan Ehrentrau, Rav Dovid Schochet are leadaing rabbis in the Halachik board of Ejf. They hav eBztey Dinim in many areas in the USA.
"These are fair questions and if you are going to go to war with the MO world by picking on a man like Bomzer who is connected to the Modern Orthodox, YU, RCA, Young Israel world "
Straw man and non sequitor: the rabbis clearly stated in this letter the allegation that they charge him for bringing goyim into klal yisroel, he does reequire kabbalat mitzvot and takes exorbitant money for his "conversions". Nothing to do with MO YU RCA. IT is a "Red herring" to borrow your phrase and a chollenmt to mux this in the discussion. You are a champion in making thes chollents and red herrings. Look they attack also Yehuda Stein. He is probably a "haredi" and they attacak in the same letteR!"
" RaP: Oh, so they can be talking about Bomzer and then throw in names like Yeedel Stein and anyone else they don't like. Everyone has people they dislike and at this rate we are going to be seeing lots more of these kinds of stupid and vengeful letters that attack people from only one point of viuew without giving the full picture. Let's hope the dayan ha'emes works better than that and not like a kangaroo court in all it's shameful "un-glory"!'
zilch zero nada!! Look the names of the Rabbis that signed the letter and they wrote that BOmzer and Yiddel Stein convert and bring goyim into klal yisroel!! Yuo may be an accomplice to some of these entries but the fact remains that they brought goyim to klal yisroel.
"(and it's NOT a "chollent" to point that out) then let's hear who the Vaad Haolami is talking for."
The people who signed the ltetter, the choshuver Rabbonim speak for themmselves (more than RaP speaks for BOmzer)."
RaP: To repeat: Who EXACTLY are the signers please? Could you write out their names in full, what their positions are, and who they represent. Thank you.
The names are on the letter. REad them!!1 (Unless you cannot read without nekudot).
"Rav Reuven Feinstein works in Staten Island, NY and has a home on the Lower East Side in Manhattan. Is that who he is talking for?"
"
AS if you ask a tiyuvta?! RRF canot convene with VH for Gerut because he is here and LT is there and RE is from chicago does that mean what? What is your point?
THe rabbis who signed on the letter speak for themselves. They hav heard evidence anough to charge Bomzer with these crimes. They rabbis put their name that he is unfiit to a gerut dayan. PEriod. All cholents wil not erase this FACT!"
" RaP: And yours is a pretty neat chollent too. Now you are twisting and turning. What does it mean that since Rav Reuven Feinstein cannot make it to Israel they have to come up with half-measure nisht-debakenne michatvim shel hevel."
zero zilch nada.
" If Rav Eisenstein and his Va'ad wish to rule on an issue, as the BADATS did, let him convene his Bais Din and issue a ruling on the official Basi Din letterhead and not on from a stupid looking "P. O. Box" in Midwood, like Rav Meir Kahane z"l Haye"d, used to do with his JDL address sometimes."
They convened and wrote in the letter of the VAAD RAboney for Giyur headed by Rav Eisenstein the most respected giyur expert in the charedi world!
" Hopefully he will also allow Bomzer an opportunity to represent himself with a team of toanim so that true justice can be done. Hopefully the Sanhedrin will give everyone their day in court and will not turn out to be no better than Sharia law as practiced by the Ayatolas in Iran, lehavdil".
embarassing kosher rabbomi to sharia law!! mechutzaf krummer shoteh!
"and the BADATS are fully supported by the well-estbalished and well known and well defined Eidah HaChareidis of Yerushalayim that has world-wide recognition and support among the most serious Charedi and Chasidic sectors".
YEs, but Rav Reuven FEinstein and Rav Eisenstein and Dayan Ehrentrau and Rav Kook disagree respectfully with them! on this issue!"
RaP: No they don't! They have never issued EITHER a written support for Troper and ejf NOR have they ever responded to the BADATS or to Rav Shternbuch.
" Only Troper hiding behind the multiple online shields of poster "roni/Roni" is now offering up his chollent of pilpulei shel hevel vesheker to defend himself when he sees he is in big trouble."
zero nada zilch!
"Such things require greater clarifications from BIGGER gedolim to say such things (P.S. Troper and Rav Eisenstein are NOT gedolim, they are rabbis) and even if Rav Eliashiv, or Rav Shteiman or Rav Kanievsky would dare to say such a chutzpadikke chiddush, "
HERE AGAIN THE MASTER OF CHOLLENT AND HYPERBOLE! If they would say this chiddush, this RaP is going to call them "chutzpahdike" chiddush but his bobeh chiddushim about bomzer are not chutzpahdik! merida against shulchan oruch?!?"
" RaP: I have made absolutely NO chiddushim about Bomzer except to request that his accusers identify themnselves in full,"
the names are clear in the letter!
(I thought you are not the "defender" of bomzer; but after a while the cat cannot stop being his real self!).
' I am not defending anyone, but so far, we have not heard ANYTHING from Bomzer himself or a presentaion of his deeds by him and how he would defend himself halachically".
You can call any of the talmidey chachomim and rabbis who wrote their azahara!
"
Bomzer is a talmid chochem and a teacher of Talmud and rosh yeshiva at YU, and it's known he received a mandate of sorts and public brochas from the last Lubavitcher Rebbe to do work in geirus, and he deserves at least some professional courtesy and not yellings and warnings and strong arm tactics that look like it's the mafia working and not a group of honored rabbis'
irrelevant to what the man has done for the past decadae and half. These rabbis talked to him and followed him and begged him for years to change his ways and stop. IT has come the time for them to do the right thing and alert the public for the danger he presents as afake dayan.
.
" RaP: Such bald faced lies. Don't you read your own ejf news and material? they are now calling out to a third of humanity, two billion people and they will have spouses so that makes it four billion people to come forth and convert via EJF proselytizing. Don' underestimate the effects of egomania, delusions of grandeur and the magnetic tug of false messianism".
ZERO ZILCH NADA!!!They do not bring goyim into klal yisroel. Would not convert anyone who would not commit to keep kashrut shabbat and taharat hamishpacha!
"One would need at least an EARLY ACHARON, like the RAMO or the MECHABER or the MAHARAL or the RAV's SHULCHAN ORUCH to say EXPLICITLY what Roni/Troper is trying to shove down everyone's throat as he intimidates people with the usual verbal bullying, but since NOT A SINGLE ACHARON or even anyone has written to come up with a "heter" for ejf."
Rav Elyashiv! stated so (as Rav Zilberstein wrote in the teshuva printed in Netzach Yisroel), Rav Reuven Feinstein agrees with this, Rav Wosner who allows his talmid Rav Stern to be a partner in the organization, Rav Shechter who stated that such an organization is long overdue (and he knew at the time that they encourage intermarried couples to convert halachikally), and the big chochom RAP tells them that if they say this it is "Chutzpah" for them to say. THe mechutzaf par excellence!!"
" RaP: Yeah, right, sure, they "agree" saying that it's ok for ejf to recruit two BILLION goyim and their spouses to Yiddishkeit as long as Troper can fool, hoodwink and give out grants of ejf and Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation shochad, peshuto kemashmao, to the rabbonim (like a date-rape drug as it were) who come to eat Kaplan's forbidden fruit bait at the fancy-shmansy hotels all bedekked with his pilpulei shel sheker vehevel that are the worst of ejf/troper chollents, chazir treif ones!'
zero nada zilch!!! He has their approval and none of them came out against him!
"It's just the cowardly anonymous Roni/Troper who is trying to shove and sneak in a "halachic" ruling That nobody has explicitly staed nor endorsed in any way) through the back door of a blog like this, shame on him!"
THEY ENDORSED WITH DEEDS! Rav FEinstein is part of the halachik advisory of the organization. So is Dayan Ehrentrau and so other mentioned earlier."
" RaP: Not enough! You seem to have no trouble being on the web and coming up with langge megilas to justify troper's new found love of gentiles hitched to Jew'.
nAS long as not one goy BECOMES A FAKE JEW AS BOMZER'S CRIMES!
Is troper ill? Suffering from a choli hanefesh? He seems to be moshe to now mekarevim BILLIONS of goyim because he has some personal netia or deeper negius, one has to really start wondering with the way he is now mamash in love with the goyim that he is going all out to come up with all sorts of pipulei shel hevel to defend this hair-brained scheme that is of mortal danger to the Jews, all as he shouts "Bomzer, Bomzer" for a classical smokescreen to his ma'asim shel nevalah!
"NO-ONE, in all of Jewish history, has ever dared to say what Roni/Troper is saying, and certainly no gadol today would dare say with a full mouth and with bak tzener such a ludicrous "heter" and "sevora" to justify the luring and preslytization of pure goyim, "
the irrational hyperbolic chollent maker at his best! Tell me again wHERE IS THE ISSUR in shulchan oruch to prosetyze reMOH? mECHABER? At best "we do not do not do it" by Aruch Hashluchan! nothing in shulchanoruch, REmo, Taz, Schach and other nossey kelim!"
" RaP: This just shows what a shotteh you are for all your citing of lomdishe sevoras. In Halacha it does NOT have to say that something is forbidden to make it so. Where does it say in the shulchan oruch that we are not allowed to rob banks or to torture people? That is the meaning of the old line, that: "where does it say in the Shulchan Oruch that I am not allowed to play with a white cat when I say over krias shema?" which you seemed to have not taken note of, while you were in thuggery school."
KRUMMER SHOTEH! bUT IT SAYS IN POSSKIM THINGS THAT i HAVE STATED. lthough in your circles they do not reada without nekudot but their slogans, look in the sources i cited to r. eidensohn from rav moshe feinstein and rav chayim ozer grodzenski!!!
"we are fully justified to tell post Roni/Troper to go fly a kite, because you are being megaleh ponim baTorah SHELO Kehalacha and you are guilty of apikursus and you should be put in cherem"
TEll me without chollent what is the "giluy panim baorah shelopy kahalacha",
' RaP: All of it. Every word that comes from you is sheker and dishonest. You only wish to bring billions of goyim via your cockmamy teitsch of "kabbalat ol mitzvot" and to make Troper the false messiah (like a Shabtai Tzvi and a Jesus figure r"l) over them all. This shall not come to be and it must be stopped!"
ZERO NADA ZILCH!!
"But i'll tell you that YOU are megaleh ponim batorah sheloy kahalacha by creating halochos in torah where there are not, and by defending a person who brin gs goyim to klal yisroel converting shikssah so their boss marries them, defending his conversions to good ones when they are goyim gemurim! you assist in bringing goyim into klal yisroel, so you should be put in cherem and be punished to eat the chollent that you make. as long as you do not poison klal yisroel by assisting a serial manufacter of goyim in klal yisroel!"
" RaP: Whatever. You have no credibility left to say this so I will put it on my toilet paper. You/troper are the worst gangster possible, one who knows how to learn! And in such a case you have no ne'emanus inspite of trying to create your own retarded chollents to welcome billions of goyim into the Am Hashem! Shame on you!"
SHAME ON YOU FOR DEFNEDING AND BEING AN ACCOMPLICE TO SOMEONE WHO BRINGS GOYIM TO KLAL YISROEL! AS FOR YOUR AMHORAATZOOS IN TORAH I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR IT; BUT BEFORE YOU SPOUT AND SPEAK OF THINGS THAT YOU DSO NOT KNOW GO AND LEARN SOME OF TORAH AND HALACHA!!! YOU ARE NOT EVEN QUALIFIED AS "MEGALEH PONIM BATORAH" FOR YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE MEGALEH OR SOSSER..BUT DEFENDING A PERSON WHO BRINGS SHIKSSES TO KLAL YISROEL IS CERTAINLY DESTROYING TORAH
Roni/troper/ejf lash out at everyone they decide to hate to create an obvious smokescreen for their own forbidden proselytization blunders!
ReplyDeleteTroper/ejf/roni are hoping that with all their screaming, rantings, insults and fake contrived lomdus, noone will notice that troper and ejf are now pro-actively trying to reach out and convert any gentiles that they pay good money to reach with their ads and infomercials!
All Torah loving Jews must work to stop them, as instructed by the rulings of the BADATS and Rav Moshe Shternbuch shlita!
Reading over the last ranting post by poster roni/troper one sees the level of sheer verbal violence and hate that troper is famous for, but nowhere does he address the terrible bitter reality that Troper and ejf have thrown themselves into unchartered and forbidden waters of reaching out to goyim hitched to Jews and that is why the BADATS and Rav Shternbuch have called on them to stop and for other G-d-fearing rabbis not to associate with them and to stay away from their events.
Roni twists words and misconstrues a call for context and objectivity, as if on a literal jihad, and only after long and tiresome discussions going nowhere does poster roni say that some rabbis were after Bomzer for a long time, which noone knows the full details of until now. Who, besides troper was after Bomzer, what was written? All this needs a to be known, and it's not about "justifying" or "defending" Bomzer or anyone, but fairness, objectivity, even sanity, demand all this just for the record, unless they have been on the troper anti-Bomzer hunting posse (today it's Bomzer, tomorrow it could be anyone, noone is safe in this kind of pure reign of terror by lunatic rabbis out to defend their own holier-than-though conversions that noone needs because so far those converts are turning out not "holier" than anyone elses converts according to all reports! while they hypocritically preach and act to recruit BILLIONS of gentiles to Judaism via the Internet.
When it comes to Orthodox rabbis facing off against each other, especially if it's in the form of Orthodox and Charedi batei din clashing with each other, they need to display dignity and koved to each other, not a troper-style hate-filled fox hunt for the bad guy with no rachmones and with fake crocodile tears for "bosses who ran of with secretaries" when Troper himself once ran off with a pretty young thing and divorced his wife. Now this is what one calls sheer chutzpa, but not roni/troper who just up the ante and blurt out more meshugassen and well-oiled hypocritical lines and falshe lomdus fit for Esav's bais din with his falshe frumkeit. Probably Yoshke Pandre also had lots of pilpulim and attacks against scapegoats to justify why he wanted to recruit the world to Yiddishkeit. Same goes for Shabtai Tzvi, he was an illui with lots of charisma (like Tropper and his cockamamy EJF) but he destroyed the world with trying to recruit goyim by the millions, so it's a huge hypocrisy to attack Bomzer while you are whistling to all the world's shiksas and shkotzim to jump on board your rotten shop online and become "halachic Jews"! Shrek! Shame on you!
I do not and have not subcribed to Bomzer's positions, but the man is entitled to his day in court and not to the be called a "criminal" by Troper (who blatantly functions like a criminal and uses criminal methods) treated visciously in a manner befitting thugs and not rabbis.
Just look at the way roni/Troper screams and has fits, is that normal rational behavior? If this is how Troper or even Rav Eisenstein think that they are going to violently destroy rabbi after rabbi and bais din after bais din that they don't like, and that in the end they will "win" something, then they are in for a sorry surprise because this "solution" will lead to worse troubles than it solves. It will BLOW UP in their faces!
Seeing that poster roni is now reduced to sputtering and muttering insults as if he is frothing at the mouth, it is noteworthy that roni/Troper NEVER gives answers or ANY reasons why ejf, at this very moment is hiring writers to PROSELYTIZE and look for BILLIONS of goyim who may have once-upon-a-time been from Jewish ancestry. And no, Bomzer was never THAT meshuga and he never tried to recruit or proselutize to all the world's gentiles (you are so crazy for even trying to make that point, even if half joking.)
So while roni/troper "demand" that a letter from a "P.O. Box" condeming a rabbi they hate be taken as "Torah misinai" (it may or it may not be, who knows) yet roni/troper merrily go about the business that they think people don't notice of singing the songs of mass proselytization like luring sirens to the billions of gentiles.
Hey, roni/Troper, how do you fa-entfer with all your krumme lomdus, do you think you have the "haskoma" from Rav Moshe Feinstein and Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinsky, both long-departed to do this crazy stuff that you can't hide?:
Funny how, for example, poster roni/troper does not condemn articles by "Art Gib" and call him all sorts of names with his outright invitations to proselytizations to the world's gentiles and does not get apoplectic that the name of ejf is smack dab in the center of a whole slew of recent articles obviously pushed by ejf people on the Internet:
What to make of these "beauties" by "Art Gib" pushing the ejf party line?:
1) Building United Jewish Homes Through Intermarriage Conversion (Article Archive): "...That's why independent organizations exist to provide couples with the information, guidance and support that they need. With some of the most respected and revered teachers leading these organizations, couples can rest assured that they are in competent and loving hands. The goal of these groups is to help intermarriage couples complete a legitimate conversion process that will last and strengthen the faith of parents and children in Jewish homes. The leaders of this organization understand that when parents are united in what they believe and teach, their posterity is much more likely to stay loyal to the faith and create their own eternal Jewish family. If you don't understand the importance of family and traditions to the Jewish people, a few hours of watching Fiddler on the Roof should give you a glimpse into the matter. About the Author :- Eternal Jewish Family (http://eternaljewishfamily.org/) only works with couples at a Rabbi's recommendation. Since conversion is a highly personal matter, they do not guarantee conversion either. They can provide the things you need to be legitimate. The author, Art Gib, is a freelance writer."
2) Keeping Your Family Eternal in Judaism (Article Archive): "...In order for a family to remain its strongest it is believed, in Orthodox Judaism, that all members must be true Jews. So what happens to a family that is intermixed? Where one parent is Jewish, the other is not, and some children are Jewish while others are not? With varying beliefs, there is the potential for conflict. So how is the problem of mixed families, where Jews and non-Jews live together as the same family unit, resolved? If everybody is not a true Jew, then the there can be conflict in the way the family chooses to live their lives. While the Jewish members abide by the teachings of G-d, the non-Jewish members choose a different path that is not in synch with the same laws...But in cases where non-Jews decide to convert to Judaism, it must be done correctly for the convert to become a "true Jew."..A major point of disagreement comes into play with conversion. Orthodox Jews do not believe that the conversion process as practiced by Reform and Conservative branches to be legitimate. Therefore, they are not true Jews...About the Author :- For those seeking advice on Orthodox Judaism and conversion, Eternal Jewish Family (http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org) is there to provide it. Art Gib is a freelance writer.
3) What to Expect at a Jewish Wedding: A Quick Guide for Non-Jews and New Converts (Article Archive): "...About the Author :- Eternal Jewish Family (http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org) serves to support those looking to have a proper Jewish marriage and raise a Jewish family in accordance with halacha. Art Gib is a freelance writer."
4) Basics of the Jewish Faith (Article Archive): "While nearly one third of the population of the world is considered Jewish or has Jewish ancestry, Judaism is a religion not understood very well by those who don't practice in the modern world. Sure, we know about Hanukkah and Passover, but what are the basic foundations of this worldwide faith. If you've always had questions or curiosities, or are considering conversion and want to know more, most of the time all you have to do is ask. Here are some of the basic precepts and beliefs of Judaism...About the Author :- Eternal Jewish Family (http://eternaljewishfamily.blogspot.com) offers information on Jewish conversion. Art Gib is a freelance writer."
5) The Jewish Family - A Question of Conversion (Article Archive): "If you're thinking of converting to Judaism, the process and requirements are quite different depending on which "denomination" you are looking at: Orthodox, Conservative or Reform, or any of the variations therein. Please note, however, that if a conversion is performed by any means other than by the use of an orthodox rabbi, Jewish Law deems the conversion invalid. Of course, the most difficult conversion is to the Orthodox faith, involving such commitments as living within walking distance of a Shul. Because a Jew must not drive on Shabbat, but must attend Shabbat services at Shul, obviously the only way to conform to the Talmudic law is to live close enough to a Shul to be able to get there on foot...About the Author :- Eternal Jewish Family (http://hubpages.com/hub/Converting-to-the-Orthodox-Jewish-Faith) is a web site dedicated to the eternal Jewish family. Art Gib is a freelance writer."
6) Importance of Family in Judaism: How Far Does It Go? (Article Archive): "...Jews consider the family as the building blocks of society. Jewish law and traditions are there exactly to highlight the importance of family. They recognize the fact that each parent can bring something unique in the education, emotional, social, religious and material needs of the children. It also acknowledges the importance of quality time spent by each parent with their children. Since different duties and laws fall on the Jewish men and women, children will only be able to have a whole Jewish experience if both parents practice the same faith. It would be difficult to give a child a full Jewish experience if only one parent is practicing the religion...About the Author :- Eternal Jewish Family (http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org) is committed to helping families come together in the Jewish faith by consulting on proper Orthodox Jewish conversion and marriage. Art Gib is a freelance writer."
7) Orthodox Jewish Marriage: Man and Woman Make Each Complete (Article Archive): "...About the Author :- Eternal Jewish Family (http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/) will help you learn more about Jewish marriage. Art Gib is a freelance writer.
8) The Menorah: An Enduring Symbol Of Faith: "...About the Author :- The mission of Eternal Jewish Family (http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org) is to serve as a support for intermarried couples who commit to live their lives as part of a Jewish family in accordance with traditional Jewish law. Menorah symbolism is an important expression of Jewish faith. Art Gib is a freelance writer."
9) Five Essential Elements of a Jewish Marriage">Five Essential Elements of a Jewish Marriage (Article Archive): "...About the Author :- Eternal Jewish Family (http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org) offers consultation and advice to ensure a proper Jewish marriage according to orthodox Jewish law. They can provide the things you need to be legitimate. The author, Art Gib, is a freelance writer."
Some of the above were already pointed out on this blog at EJF - offers enlightenment to non-Jews (January 14, 2009) and at EJF - Convert for family happiness (January 1, 2009) and at EJF - Helping gentiles get used to Judaism (December 28, 2008)
And others like this as pointed out at:
1) EJF - fishing for converts (January 6, 2009), original article at Halachic Conversion (Ezine Articles): "Marriage and family are two beautiful and sacred things in the Jewish community. Through marriage comes children, and through children comes the preservation of their belief and way of life. Those who choose to get married do so with the hope that they will be able to have an eternal Jewish family. However, many of these marriages are intermarriages where one spouse is of the faith while the other isn't. The two of them agree to work together and teach the same beliefs, but unless the non-Jewish spouse is converted using the standards of halacha, the conversion is often considered invalid. The conversion doesn't have to stay invalid, however. There are organizations out there that teach the halachic method of conversion and help these couples bypass this hurdle. By converting to Judaism using the halachic method, the non-Jewish spouse will be considered a valid, orthodox member of the faith and community. When it comes time to teach the children religious beliefs both parents will be assets because they will know they have the belief system and passion necessary for the training of children...Eternal Jewish Family, or EJF, is a website with information on Jewish family issues. Billings Farnsworth is a freelance writer."
2) Eternal Jew Family - Helping interfaith Families (December 26, 2008) as on The Eternal Jewish Family: Reinforcing Judaism Among Interfaith Families (Local Reviews.com) December 25, 2008 and:
3) EJF defended (December 19, 2008) from All About the EJF (i Reviewlocal.com December 18, 2008: "...What is the EJF? Also known as the Eternal Jewish Family, the EJF is an organization dedicated towards helping interfaith families achieve a Jewish destiny, as dictated by the halacha...In conclusion, if an interfaith couple has a genuine interest in orthodox Judaism, EJF can provide assistance. If the conversion is successful, the couple and their children will be considered universally orthodox in accordance to halachic guidelines."
4) EJF - Proselytizing Advertisement (December 9, 2008) original from HIDABROOT
After all the zero zilch nada from RAp/bomzer:
ReplyDeleteEJf does NOT bring goyim into klal yisroel but bomzer brings GOYIM into klal yisorel! (with all the $$$$ that comes to him and his partners that assist him and split the pie).
It's amazing that roni-troper can come up with letters "against" rabbis, but after a few years in business EJF and troper still cannot come up with any written haskomas from anyone, even a one-line on official stationary of Rav Reuven Feinstein or Rav Eisenstien Va'ad HaOlami,nor even official kuntresim like ron/troiper is now posting up all over the place with his pilpulei shel hevel vesheker to justify "outreach to goyim hitched to Jews" by the BILLIONS (as the links to articles making such EXPLICIT appeals above show is EJF's aim and plan) and with chutzpa claim that Rav Chaim Ozer Grudzinsky ztk"l and Rav Moshe Feinstein ztk"l would somehow retrocatively "approve" of such apikursus to promote "reaching out to goyim" in the name of Halacha yet, that can only result in the end in pure shmad of Yidden like in the times of Shabtai Tzvi and Yeshu Hanotzri, r"l, because more than EJF will influence the goyim it plans to convert in holier-than-thou fashion, the millions and billions goyim ejf is clearly gunning for (according to own infomercials) would chalilo eventually flood Klal Yisroel with their influences, much the same way that Shlomo HaMelech's 1000 glatt-kosher-converted-gentile-wives willy-nilly brought all their bad influences upon Shlomo himself, the wisest of all men, to the ruination of Shlomo Hamelech and Am Yisroel! And Shlomo was a lot smarter and tougher than the troiper/kaplan duo and ejf and look what happened to him in the end.
ReplyDeleteWhy does troiper think he is smarter and wiser than Shlomo Hamelech? Reason: A burning dangerous megalomania and unsatiated false-messianism in full scream (literally screaming, if you look at the way he responds and posts his insults on this blog.)
It was pathetic to watch in some recent posts how poster Roni/troiper do their own poo-pooing of the letters that were written against Tropper and EJF by the BADATS and Rav Shternbuch as Roni/Troper ignore those and hypocritically expect Bomzer to respond to their letter co-signed by Troper from a "P. O. Box" yet with such blatant chutzpah and lies.
It is the height of hypocrisy to expect another rabb, any rabbi, or any self-respecting human with an ounce of self-dignity, to respond to troiper and stop his actvitivities when Troper himself received the exact same type of letters from the BADATS to stop his proselytization actvities and yet troiper did not even bother to respond to the BADATS, and added insult to injury, as Rabbi Eidensohn/da'as torah has reported a few times on this blog already, Troper insulted Rav Shternbuch and smeared Rabbi Eidensohn, and this is the same troiper who screams and shouts and expects Bomzer to jump to attention when troiper proves with his own failed personal examples that he not only does not jump to attention but insults them and calls them "kashrus supervisors" when rabbis such as from the choshuve BADATS issue letters NOT from an anonymous non-descript "P. O. Boxes" but from a full venerable centuries old Bais Din with clear signatures with clear names of the seven dayanim, yet troiper says they are just "kashrus supervisor" rabbis that need not be listened to while he expects Bomzer to respond to his own letters. Now that folks is an example of hypocrisy in motion in all it's ugly full-blown glory!
Troiper does not even want to tell who the rabbis are who smudged their signatures on this letter he touts. He says that it's because people can't read without nekudot as if that menat to mean that he is the only one with the smarts and that the rest of the world is dumb.
Get this mister, if you are posting such a letter THAT IS IN ENGLISH, then you owe it to the world to state IN ENGLISH who those signatures are from, what positions those men hold, who they represenet and if anyone could contact them to find out if they still hold from the positions they signed on to, because Rabbi Nochum Eisenstien and Rabbi Tropper are now not working together as they used to and as poster roni/troper has already admitted on this blog to the distancing between rabbi Tropper and Rabbi Eisenstien, that is yet another strike against this letter.
By the way, does it mean that if only these rabbis signed that the others who belonged to this organization refused to sign? It would therefore seem that more rabbis refused to sign than actually signed in the end so that in itself invalidates this letter.
This is the kind of line of attack poster roni/troper would use if he was Bomzer, and there is not much difference between Bomzer and Troper, they are both Orthodox rabbis getting lots of money to be involved with conversions, just Troper gets lots more to recruit gentiles to his ejf from Tom Kaplan and the Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation for ejf wine and dine the gentiles meetups at fancy resorts and hotels while it's still not known how much Bomzer's official professional fees are.
Roni/troiper spent his time in recent posts trying to chop up and and distort the meaning and intent of the BADATS letters in some recent posts, but when someone tries to question his own letter he goes ballistic and curses out the world. What hypocrisy and one-sided chutzpah!
Why didn't you respond like a mentsch to the letters from the BADATS and from Rav Shternbuch, roni/troper? Do you think you deserve special treatment because you are a self-annointed kanoi to save the world like St. George saving the shisa-damsels in conversion distress from the dragon/Bomzer?
Why do you expect Bomzer or anyone to act better than you did when you send out letters, not even from a Bais Din, just a couple of jumbled signatures with yours clearly displayed? Do you think you are an official dayan now to add your name to letters of Halachic import? You are just a small time kiruv rabbi from Monsey and it's time for you to get back to your job as "rosh yeshiva" (chief mullah) of your dinky Kol Yaakov yeshiva.
Would any normal person expect Bomzer or anyone withan ounce of pride to respond to letters from troper when troper has been after his blood for years? Do you enjoy people to respond out fear to you? That is sadism, not Judaism! You wouldn't know, would you, you don't accept knowledge from the secular world, only its goyim! Another hypocrisy: Goyim are good for conversion, but when it comes to chochma bagoyim you hold "lo ta'amin" and you think no-one notices your hypocrisy in full public display!
And why should Bomzer respond at all when troiper has not once in over a year bothered to respond like a normal mentsch would to the BADATS and Rav Shternbuch? You think that Bomzer or anyone must submit to you like a servile puppy while you act like an arrogant inquisitor and mafia enforcer and chutzpanyak?
The hypocrisy and chutzpah of roni/troper is so overwhelming and sickening! Terror is not the way to bring people closer to Yiddishkeit!
In case roni/troper or any reader forget about the letters from the BADATS and Rav Shternbuch that Troper has still not gotten around to aanwering, here are the links to them again:
1) Bedatz Letter regarding EJF signed by Gaavad (February 14, 2008) and link to original:
"Distinguished Rabbi shlita, I am requesting from you - with every expression of entreaty - to stop and break off association with this organization (Eternal Jewish Family) which is a danger to the future of the Jewish people. Even isolated cases of this type of conversion (of intermarried couples) are extremely problematic. This is explicitly stated by the Achiezer (3:28) that “no kosher beis din should deal with this (the conversion of intermarried couples).” Also look in the Igros Moshe (E.H. 1:27) where he states “this whole issue of conversion of intermarried couples is personally totally distasteful even in isolated cases.” It is simply not acceptable to deal with the issue of intermarried couples in this manner and to openly reinforce their activities with public announcements and notices in newspapers and internet and other such means. They are in effect inviting non‑Jews to participate in a program of conversion through this publicity. It is a really damaging approach which unfortunately will bring about even more intermarriages and invalid conversions. Distinguished Rabbi shlita, please act according to your understanding and wisdom and desist from participating in this program (of the Eternal Jewish Family). It is a public danger. G‑d should assist you."
2) Bedatz letter regarding conversion (November 18, 2007) with copy of the original and with the official translation:
"Sunday, November 18, 2007.
Bedatz letter regarding conversion.
Rav Sternbuch, shlita approved translation by Daniel Eidensohn.
ב"ה
5th of Kislev 5768
The senior dayanim of the Bedatz met today to discuss allegations that certain kiruv activists are actively proselytizing the children of intermarried couples to convince them to convert – even though according to Torah law there is no halachic relationship with their Jewish fathers. They are calling for the acceptance of these non-Jewish children in Jewish programs and religious schools. Such an action is literally a disaster and self‑destructive. It is self‑evident that such a program is absolutely prohibited by the Torah.
Furthermore until now anyone who wanted to marry a non‑Jewess – Heaven forefend! – knew very well that this act would sever them from the Jewish people forever. Because of the dire consequences of intermarriage, there was a strong barrier that prevented many from intermarrying. However now that the consequence of exclusion from the Jewish people has been removed - this motivation not to intermarry has been lost. Consequently these intermarried couples and their children remain amongst the Jewish people. This results in their non-Jewish children being accepted into religious schools out of the hope that they will eventually convert.
Therefore we are warning that this activity is against the Torah. It has never been acceptable to proselytize non‑Jews. Furthermore as we mentioned it actually encourages intermarriage.
We therefore are turning to the poskim and the roshei yeshivos not to participate in their conventions - such as the one that occurred in America last week. Even if their motivation was to improve the standards of conversions – they are making improvements in one area while making things worse in another. This approach is directly causing serious problems.
Those who heed our cautions will benefit and receive blessings.
We - the members of the Bedatz in Jerusalem - affix our signature to this document out of fear and concern for the holiness of the Jewish people – the holy nation.
Horav Meir Brandsorfer
Horav Moshe Sternbuch
Horav Naftoli Frenkal
Horav Avrohom Yitzchok Ulman
Horav Yakov Mendel Yorovitch
Horav Yehoushua Rosenberg"
3) Rav Moshe Sternbuch - Kiruv for non-Jews (August 10, 2007), and copy of original letter and the Rav Moshe Sternbuch - Authorized Translation (August 10, 2007)
And finally
4) The issue is - What is the halachic basis of EJF? (December 21, 2007) [Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn/da'as torah]: "It is time to remind everyone what is the concern of the Bedatz and why I have posted material on this blog. It is simply ascertaining the halachic basis of what Eternal Jewish Family is doing with intermarried couples. Once the purported halachic basis is ascertained - to have poskim evaluate the assertions and either agree, disagree or suggest modifications. There are no published teshuvos dealing with their activities. There are no letters explaining what they are doing. Why?
The issue has been raised repeatedly as to why I am discussing only EJF when there are other organizations and rabbis who have problematic conversion programs. I don't understand the relevance of the question. How does the existence of a greater problem minimize the fact that this organization - with great fanfare - has announced that they are raising the standards of conversion so that they will be universally acceptable? They themselves have asserted that their reason for existence is to create the gold standard of conforming to halacha. How does their announced goal conform with what they are actually doing? Furthermore why have they introduced a program of seminars to enourage the non-Jewish spouse to convert. They are spending millions of dollars to convince people who are uncertain that it is desirable to be Jewish. Why is this needed?
Related to this is a question I was asked by a charedi rosh yeshiva this morning. "One of the horror stories that EJF has told to illustrate the low halachic standards of others is that a woman went to mikva for her conversion and it was discovered afterwards that she was wearing contact lenses. It is well known that Rav Moshe held that contact lenses are not a chatzitza - even though it is best to remove them. But how can they claim to be following Rav Moshe's psakim and at the same time tell such stories?"
I am not accusing Rabbi Tropper of corruption, or trying to become rich from a conversion racket. I am not trying to close down EJF. As far as I know Rabbi Tropper is an ehrliche yid, a solid talmid chachom, someone who has devoted his life to help the Jewish people. I am saying that despite all my efforts on behalf of the Bedatz, I have not been able to get my concerns addressed. He did take the time and effort for an extended exchange of e-mails - but I could not get him to answer my questions. I find this very puzzling. If the tables were reversed, I don't think it would take me more than 5 minutes to explain what is going on. Rav Tropper is a much greater talmid chachom than I am - and yet he has not produced an answer. He has not produced a letter from Rav Dovid or Rav Reuven Feinstein explaining how Rav Moshe permitted what is happening. He has not produced a letter from Rav Eliashiv to explain the justification for their actitivites. Why?"
~~~~~
But so far, (as roni would say) nothing, nada, zip, zilch from Rabbi Tropper and the EJF to ANY of the above! Only stonewalling and silence and now insults from poster Roni who also has given some versions of his pilpulim on other posts but they are anonymous posts that have no official meaning or value until such time that they can be put on EJF stationary, like the letter to Bomzer, and sent as an official and formal response to the BADATS and Rav Shternbuch and at the same time obtain a few official haskomas in writing for EJF and for Rabbi Tropper's radical and upstart proselytizations, just as it was possible to come up with a written protest against Rabbi Bomzer, they should able to come with positive OFFICIAL letters or approval for themselves and not just hysterical rages online.
NADA ZILCH NOTHING GORNISHT!!!
ReplyDeleteTropper does NOT bring goyim into klal yisroel, RBozmer/Rap bring goyim into klal yisroel (as attested by choshuver rabbonim and then rake in $$$$ into their pockets!
Just to add to you RAP/BOmzer: You are an apikorress and a big am hoorets who does not know how to make a cogentresponse and address the points discussed and your amoratzishe boorishe comment that "chatey kedey shyizkeh" is not mentioned in an achron and if it would, it would also must be backed by ....shows what the true amhooretz and boor you are. Like in your circles, they never toiled on a blatt gemoroh and rishonim and achronim so you do not realize that i was not mmechdesh chidusshim; just repeating what is in the Posskim for years....instead of blattering your chollent/hate towards other jews go sit and learn a piece of toraH SHE BAAL PEH. gET A GOOD TUTOR BECUASE YOU REALLY NEED IT!
ReplyDeleteRoni says: "gET A GOOD TUTOR BECUASE YOU REALLY NEED IT!"
ReplyDeleteHey Roni/troiper, maybe the BADATS and Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn should also get good tutors?
How about all the people that have walked away from you and from EJF like Rabbi Hershel Shechter of YU and the RCA rabbis and Rav Nochum Eisenstein should also get remedial training to agree with you, because each time someone goes against you, you obviously think that they are missing the all-knowing knowldege that you claim to have.
You know, 2000 years ago when Jesus started his false messianic movement and insisted in his lifetime that his converts should also be mekabel ol mitzvot, learn Torah, keep Shabbat, Kashrut, bris mila, and all the taryag mitzvot, yet look what happened to him in the end and how his movement fizzled out and became a huge and painful thorn in the side of Yiddishkeit (like EJF now is) but was later changed and hijacked and became Christianity, that's what you/troiper and EJF are planning.
Jesus was also a gants feiner lamden like you, he learned in some of the best yeshivas of his time and was a talmid of the Tannaim, but he was a chutzpanyak like you and remained as krum as krum can be because he was blinded by his own false messianic complex. His charsima and success blinded him to his problems and what he was doing. Take heed of what I am saying!!!
I see that you are reduced to insults and sputtering and frothing at the mouth. Too bad, it just shows who is the boor and am hara'aretz. You take rishonim and Toirah, play with it like putty, belch out boich sevoras, and make it fit your ends, Tropper is known as an illui, but just because he knows how to learn that does not make him right on all the issues, as you can see Rav Shternbuch and the Dayanim on the BADATS told him off and they say he is 100% wrong, see their letters against you above, yet again.
I think I like Rabbi Eidensohn as my online tutor for now, we don't always agree on everything, but he is a big talmid chochem, don't you think. He is a lot safer than you! Do you approve?
By the way, I see that one of the people that signed the anti-Bomzer letter was Rabbi Fried from the Dallas Kollel, what is his standing here, that he heads a Kollel with ten avreichim and that he has 100 BTs running after him in Texas? How much money did he get so far from Dr. Tom Kaplan via EJF's slush funds to other mosdos? That makes him a power to sign letters against other rabbonim? If he has something to say, let him and the others put it in writing their full support and haskomas for Tropper and EJF (which notice they have not done) and any attacks against other rabbis should come from his DATA Torah center on their official stationary and not hiding behind a double "P.O. Box" (on in Brooklyn and one in Israel) and when he does it, we'll show it around and follow up and report on all the fake conversions he has done over the years as well, and we'll prove what a hypocrite he is as well when we show some of the rich balebatim/supporters in Dallas and Texas who helped get phoney conversions for their kids shiksa wives how he now has the audacity to sign letters against other rabbis who are doing no different to him. More chutzpa in motion from a typical Tropper ally. What can you expect!
There will be more to say about the other signees. None of them are perfect when it comes to conversions.
RAP/BOmzer,
ReplyDeleteZIlch, nada, nothing!!
You are certainly a bomzer supporter with $$$ stakes at hand to out on a limb to defend him when he brings goyim into klal yisroel. You don't care about anything and go on attack on a rabbi of dallas whom you know almost close to nothing about; just splattering loshon hooh and letzonous about the guy who put his name to sign that bomzer BRINGS GOYIM TO KLAL YISROEL andf you probably take a good cut with bomzer so that he cotniues to rake in thousandsa from bringing goyim intro klal yisroel. krummeh svoros, attacking innocent people AND A PARTNER TO BRING GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL!
I am an Orthodox Rabbi of an Orthodox shul with over 200 families. A year ago I performed a wedding of a wonderful and observant couple who lives in my community. The bride was converted a few years before she met her husband by Rabbi Bomzer. Among her papers of conversion, was a letter where she was asked by the Beis Din to sign a statement accepting upon herself all of the mitzvot including Rabbinic and Torah Mitzvot. I was impressed at the specificity of the listing of the mitzvos and saw that it was obviously an added protection for her that the beis din was responsible enough to ask her questions verbally as she reported to me about the mitzvos and whether or not she accepted all of them and of course she did and to go the extra mile of having her sign it on paper. I asked her about the process of the beis din and I am satisfied that it was completely done according to halacha.
ReplyDeleteShe did not pay $10,000 dollars as was suggested here somewhere and it was obvious to me that this was a serious process. Today, a little more than one year later I know for sure that she is observant, she covers her hair with a tichol and she attends the mikvah regularly and her family is shomer shabbos and kashrus. I have no reservations whatsoever eating at her home and I am absolutely certain that this guir is complete and legitimate.
Additionally other colleagues have told me when I asked about Rabbi Bomzers giur that it is accepted by most and especially by Rabbi Kotlarsky of Lubavitch and many many others. All of them told me that the paperwork they have seen included this formal acceptance of the mitzvos and all of the gerim that we have seen or heard about have been observant Jews.
I do not know why this terrible letter was put out and I do not wish to get involved in the politics of Rabbi Tropper vs Badatz etc. But it should be stated that he does get the kabolos hamitzvos in writing and that many of us in practical Rabbonus do accept his giur and have seen that all the gerim that we have seen have been observant yorei shomayim frum yidden.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI'm really confused by RAP's latest posting but I have to say that one thing came through. It must have been really embarrassing for EJF to have one of its principle lay leaders not be willing to live up to the necessary standards for a halachic conversion. Despite the possible loss of money, despite the embarassment, EJF still refused to sponsor someone for conversion who would not live a halachic lifestyle afterwards. That's pretty impressive in my eyes.
ReplyDeleteIT IS NOW VITAL THAT ALL READERS NOW SEE Rabbi Bomzer's ban signatories - retract (February 18, 2009):
ReplyDeleteAND SEE THE ATTACHED "A Statement of clarification" signed by Rabbi Moshe Soloveitchik of Chicago and Rabbi Naphtoli Borenstein of Cleveland"!!
"Rabbi Eidensohn,
Although I have studied at yeshiva, I do not consider myself anything close to a chocham; I do, however, feel that I am a rather good judge of character and a more than good analyst of arguments. I have also had personal experiences with conversions and rabbis who perform them. It is for this reason that I am writing to add my support to those who claim that Rabbi Chaim Zev Bomzer has been libeled and slandered in the controversy over the legitimacy of his geirus.
I have been reluctant to write on the matter of R' Tropper and R’ Eisenstein’s charges against Rabbi Bomzer, because I try my best to avoid spreading lashon hora. I admit that because of my own relative lack of talmudic education, I tend to err on the side of caution whenever I am confronted with a situation where my words may be viewed as inappropriate. But this situation demands that all information which can reveal the truth be provided to as many eyes as possible. Having been referred to the blog and having read the many statements supporting and condemning both factions, I have come to the realization that certain obvious questions are being glossed over in the indignation both sides are claiming as a result of this disagreement.
The first issue that has gone undiscussed is the matter of bringing this argument to a din torah for resolution. It is my understanding that R’ Eisenstein has declined to attend a beis din in the US on the grounds that his mentors tell him he need not leave Israel to resolve this matter. Rabbi Bomzer, on the other hand, feels that only in the US can this matter be properly and fairly adjudicated because of numerous adim and other potential expert witnesses who will not or cannot afford to make the trip to Israel. What would it take to have R' Eisenstein come to the US? Would it simply be a matter of the flight? By this letter, I offer to pay R' Eisenstein’s fare if he will agree to come to the US for the beis din.
The other issue is the legitimacy of the letter ostensibly signed by the respected and revered chochomim condemning Rabbi Bomzer and warning against acceptance of his geirus. I have learned that more than one of the signatories has since retracted his support for the contents of that letter. Some have gone so far as to claim that the letter they signed did not contain the same language as the letter which has been circulated, while others have stated that at the very least they do not remember the letter to have stated such things when they signed it, and that they now state unequivocally that they do not support what the letter claims. I am attaching to this email a copy of a statement signed by two of those signatories which I hope you will see fit to place on your blog.
It is not my intention to become involved in any "back and forth" with your other commentators. I have been a contributor to newsgroups and online debates for more than 25 years, and know too well how easily some people allow themselves to behave online in ways they would not dare were they talking to their opponents face to face. So it is my intention bli neder to make this my only statement on the subject in the hope that, by refraining from participation in any inflammatory dialogue, R' Eisenstein will take me up on my offer to assist his participation in the only forum that can settle this matter once and for all.
All the best,
Ben Israel"
AND SEE THE ATTACHED "A Statement of clarification" signed by Rabbi Moshe Soloveitchik of Chicago and Rabbi Naphtoli Borenstein of Cleveland"!!