Rabbi Leib Tropper gave an interview recently which is published in the current edition #838 of Mishpacha (Hebrew) – January 17, 2008 pages (62-63). The following is my translation of part of the article.
“In working with kiruv organizations I discovered the shocking reality. Those who were trying to become more observant and wanted with all their heart and power to become fully observant - unexpectedly revealed to us the frighting truth – that they were married to a non-Jewish woman. Consequently if they wanted to live according to the halacha they would obviously be required to leave their non‑Jewish wife and to break up the family. Many were not able to take such a drastic step and continued living their lives as before. In other words they continued living as an intermarried couple and obviously their children were not Jewish. The gedolei hador paskened for us to proselytize and convert the non-Jewish spouse in order to facilitate the Jewish spouse to live as a fully observant Jew. In other words if those who were intermarried knew that they would have a problem [with being married to a non-Jew] after becoming observant they would not be interested in becoming observant. At Eternal Jewish Family we prepare these non-Jewish spouses for conversion. We monitor their progress in understanding the process of observing Torah and mitzvos. We teach them the path of Judaism. As a result of conducting these conversion courses we discovered an astonishing thing. During their studies these non-Jewish spouses become so involved with the course until they truly accepted upon themselves the yoke of Torah and mitzvos - out of their genuine knowledge of Judaism. Consequently it is only when we see that they are ready that we send them to be tested by a beis din for conversion. It is important to note that we do not decide if they are to be converted or not. Following the guidance of gedolim, we have not set up new courts of our own. We simply send those who have been prepared for conversion to existing courts and only those courts which have been recognized by the gedolim.
Rabbi Tropper has said in various interviews and correspondences that in order for the Jew to become "observant" we must permit him to continue to violate the Issur D'oraita prohibition of cohabiting with a Gentile woman if he is already doing so.
ReplyDeleteIf the Jew cannot help but to continue Issur D'Oraita violations, then we surely cannot call him observant (ie. do we also permit niddah relations, homosexuality, incest and the eating of pork and shellfish so it will be easier for Jews who have no interest in observing Jewish law can become "observant"??).
It seems outside of common sense and logic that permitting violation of Issur D'Oraita will make "observant" Jews.
This "logic" must have trickled up from the Reform movement which has failed to perpetuate itself through the generations and has resorted to proselytizing to Gentiles in order to gain members.
At least now he admits that they proselyte, for years he denies it or called it something else.
ReplyDeletePeople who are involved with intermarried outreach can tell you that the EJF tries to make keiruv not only to couples who are interested in conversion they also try to reach out to couples who have no interest in Judaism.
They pay local rabbis (many of them chabbad) to bring couples to the EJF. I am not sure if those rabbis get paid for lump sum as ‘outreach expenses’ or they get paid by the body count.
They also uses a PR office in Boro Park trying to plant stories in local papers around the country about their operation with the hope that intermarried will read the article and will contact them.
Note to the first poster:
ReplyDeleteThe issur of cohabitating with a gentile woman is an issur d'rabannan, at best. According to mny (most) authorities it is entirely permissable. The same cannot be said of a woman cohabitating with a gentile man, of course.
I thought "issur d'rabannan" was important. It's what separates us from Karites and Xtians.
ReplyDeleteChicken w/cheese is d'rabbonim, as well as the details of shechita, tefillin, and family purity.
I have never heard a Rabbi say a Jewish man can have relations with a gentile, and ask the prior poster to name one who is alive today.
Notes to the 3rd poster,
ReplyDeleteI heard rabbi Tropper dismissed this issue by saying something along these lines (this is not an exact quote )
“The person who has relation with non Jewish woman is on higher medrega than a typical Modern Orthodox, Conservative or Reform. When they sleep with a nidah woman their punishment is kares but when the guy sleeps with a shiksa his punishment is only malkus”
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteNote to the first poster:
"The issur of cohabitating with a gentile woman is an issur d'rabannan, at best. According to mny (most) authorities it is entirely permissable. The same cannot be said of a woman cohabitating with a gentile man, of course."
That is rather a strange, and inaccurate statement. It would be helpful if you cited sources. There is in fact a dispute whether these intermarried couples are transgressing a Torah or Rabbinic prohibition.
For example the Aruch HaShulchan E. H. 16:1-2 indicates that most poskim would agree that an intermarried couple is transgressing a Torah prohibition.
ערוך השולחן אבן העזר סימן טז
סעיף א
כתב הרמב"ם ז"ל בפי"ב מאיסורי ביאה ישראל שבעל כותית משאר האומות דרך אישות או ישראלית שנבעלה לכותי דרך אישות הרי אלו לוקין מן התורה שנאמר לא תתחתן בם בתך לא תתן לבנו ובתו לא תקח לבנך אחד ז' אומות ואחד שאר עממין באיסור זה וכן מפורש ע"י עזרא ואשר לא נתן בנותינו לעמי הארצות ואת בנותם לא נקח לבננו עכ"ל וכבר בארנו בסי' ד' סעי' ג' דדעת הרמב"ם דקרא דלא תתחתן בם מיירי בכל האומות בגיותן והרבה מרבותינו חולקים עליו וס"ל דקרא מיירי בשבעה אומות ובגירותן אבל בגיותן לית להו חתנות כלל ונמצא דלהרמב"ם לא לקי רק בחיתון וביאה כמו דס"ל בכל חייבין לאוין ולהחולקים עליו חייב בשבעה אומות בגיותן בביאה בלבד ובגירותן חייב משום לא תתחתן בם בחיתון בלבד ובשאר אומות בגירותן שרי לגמרי ובגיותן לית להו חתנות וביאה הוי זנות בעלמא וצ"ל לדעת הרמב"ם אע"ג דקדושין אין להם מ"מ נשואין יש להם [ב"ח] ושארי פוסקים לא ס"ל האי סברא [ע' בהגר"א סק"ב שכתב להחולקים אינו חייב בז' אומות בגיותן רק בקידש ובעל מדכתיב לשון קיחה וצ"ע הא לית להו קיחה וכן פירוש הפסוק כמ"ש התוס' ס"פ האומר]:
סעיף ב
ומ"מ יראה לי דאפילו להחולקים על הרמב"ם מ"מ אם היא בביתו ובועל אותה תמיד כדרך איש ואשתו חייב עלה מדאורייתא דהא הכי איתא בהדיא בגמ' [ע"ז ל"ו ב] דאורייתא אישות דרך חתנות ודוחק לומר דזהו אינו אליבא דהלכתא ולכן אע"ג דאין להם חתנות מ"מ כיון דהוא דרך אישות לקי עלה מדאורייתא [כנ"ל ודו"ק]:
To Anonymous 4:17.
ReplyDeleteA Jew who cohabits with a non Jew transgresses a TORAH prohibition Deut. 7:3 that applies to both men and women.
See also:
Malachi 2: 11-12
Ezra 9: 10-15
Ezra 10: 10-11
Those who have intermarried must leave their non Jewish spouses or they are lost to the Jewish people forever.
When you state:
According to mny (most) authorities it is entirely permissable. (cohabiting with a Gentile woman).
Please name ONE and please refer to the chapter and verse in a specific sefer.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"I heard rabbi Tropper dismissed this issue by saying something along these lines (this is not an exact quote )
“The person who has relation with non Jewish woman is on higher medrega than a typical Modern Orthodox, Conservative or Reform. When they sleep with a nidah woman their punishment is kares but when the guy sleeps with a shiksa his punishment is only malkus”
===================
In contrast Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky zt"l said the following in Emes LeYaakov Parshas Vayechi page 237
A practical example of zealousness not based on a
strict reading of the Law...[arises] from the following
question: What should a person do, if he has the
choice to marry a Jewish girl who will not follow
the laws of family purity or to marry a non-Jewish
woman? Which is preferable? A scholar who has
not served an "apprenticeship" with a major posek
sufficiently, would certainly say that inasmuch as
relations with a Niddah [a woman who has not
immersed in a mikvah, in accordance with the laws
of family purity] is [punishable] by Divine excision
from the Jewish people [karet],[therefore it would be
better to marry the non-Jew]. Nevertheless, the
Rambam ruled differently...[translation by R' Alfred Cohen in Daat Torah]
This entire post is an outrageous lie. It amazes me how anyone claiming to be a G-d fearing Yid can create such falsehoods and then partake in lashon hara by spreading around the lies as if they were indeed truth!
ReplyDelete"At least now he admits that they proselyte, for years he denies it or called it something else.
People who are involved with intermarried outreach can tell you that the EJF tries to make keiruv not only to couples who are interested in conversion they also try to reach out to couples who have no interest in Judaism.
They pay local rabbis (many of them chabbad) to bring couples to the EJF. I am not sure if those rabbis get paid for lump sum as ‘outreach expenses’ or they get paid by the body count.
They also uses a PR office in Boro Park trying to plant stories in local papers around the country about their operation with the hope that intermarried will read the article and will contact them.
January 20, 2008 12:52 PM"
Neshama Saver said...
ReplyDelete"This entire post is an outrageous lie. It amazes me how anyone claiming to be a G-d fearing Yid can create such falsehoods and then partake in lashon hara by spreading around the lies as if they were indeed truth!"
Please explain what you are claiming is a lie since part of the posting by anonymous was verified by R' Tropper's interview in Mishpacha magazine.
According to Neshama Saver's post, EJF is engaging in communications which they hope will result in the conversion of gentiles.
ReplyDeleteIf that's not proseltyzing, what is?
Additionally, by paying Rabbis to bring in gentiles for conversion, this would clearly bring into question the objectivity of those Rabbis. His statement clearly implies that if it weren't for the money, they wouldn't be bringing in the couples.
I know that you have been getting a lot of "grief" over the EJF
ReplyDeletebusiness. Let me just say that I support you 100% in what you doing
and I believe you are lishmo in this matter.
How can I reach you privately thru email?
ReplyDeleteThanks!
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteHow can I reach you privately thru email?
yadmoshe@yahoo.com
You blind fool.
ReplyDeleteDid you read past the first two sentences of my post? Here it is for your selectively filtering eyes:
"They pay local rabbis (many of them chabbad) to bring couples to the EJF. I am not sure if those rabbis get paid for lump sum as ‘outreach expenses’ or they get paid by the body count.
They also uses a PR office in Boro Park trying to plant stories in local papers around the country about their operation with the hope that intermarried will read the article and will contact them."
LIES LIES and MORE LIES!
First of all, I have never seen or heard of Chabad being involved with this program, and I have literally scores of Chabad Rabbis as friends.
May Hashem have mercy on your obviously biased soul.
All Rabbis nvolved with EJF do not get paid lump sums of anything. You are a total RASHA for even accusing them of doing this.
They do not have a PR office in Boro Park. Obviously you have something against the Jewish Press, which is what you are referring to.
Let me ask you something, fellow Jew.
Do you mekarev anyone? Do you speak to the non-frum about Shabbos, the beauty of Torah, or why you do what you do?
If not, then please go crawl back into your shtetl hole in the ground, cause that's where you do the most good.
Dear Neshama Saver,
ReplyDeleteI do not know why you have chosen to so rudely insult Rabbi Eidensohn. The comment you refer to was posted by an anonymous commenter.
Properly educated Jews do not EVER insult or denigrate a Rabbi, neither publicly and nor privately. If you are not able to respect Rabbi Eidensohn then at least you MUST respect the title of Rabbi and address your questions respectfully.
I recommend that you go back to the Rabbis whom you claim makareved you to observant Judaism because this is clearly a huge gap in your education that should be corrected.
If you had been following this saga, you would have known that Rabbi Eidernsohn became interested in this issue as a result of hosting so many non yet observant Shabbos guests. After being sent a non Jew and being told that it was "kiruv" this became an issue.
My husband and I have had similar experiences. Since the time we were first married, we have hosted numerous non observant Shabbat guests. My husband was a volunteer advisor for a High School and college Jewish outreach program from 1985-1993.
After my husband had to give this up because of health problems, we continued to host not yet observant guests, sometimes as many as 35 for a meal. (The money for this came from our maaser by the way).
About 5 years ago we began to notice that we were being sent non Jews by the local shuls, and kiruv organizations. Far from doing a mitzvah, we were committing a sin by hosting non Jews at our Shabbat table.
After telling local Rabbis and kiruv professionals that we would only host Shabbat guests who were Jewish k'halacha and that they should ask basic questions before sending us guests, we were treated with animosity and no longer sent any guests. Such is the state of the "kiruv" situation in the US, I presume.
As far as intermarried couples are concerned, my husband and I have personally contributed to the end of several intermarriages at our table. Each of the Jewish men involved is now married to a Jewish woman and that several Jewish children have been brought into the world as a result.
I can only hope and pray the same for you.
My response was not to the Rabbi. Iit was to the anonymous pster.
ReplyDeleteI have much respect for the Rabbi. I apologize if my post seems otherwise.
Again, the blind fool comment was to the other poster's comments. The person conveniently ignored 75% of my post.
Neshama Saver said...
ReplyDeleteYou blind fool… May Hashem have mercy on your obviously biased soul… go crawl back into your shtetl hole in the ground, cause that's where you do the most good.
Derech eretz kadma LaTorah
Too bad the people who mekarev you did not tell you that.
You are a total RASHA….
There is a BT yeshiva in Monsey where the talmidim are known to disparage other Jews, other streams of orthodoxy, other shita of BT. They call people who support the state of Israel ‘Idolatry worshipers’ and call non-orthodox Jews “Shekatzim”
LIES LIES and MORE LIES!
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I have never seen or heard of Chabad being involved with this program, and I have literally scores of Chabad Rabbis as friends.
May Hashem have mercy on your obviously biased soul.
===============================
There were few Chabbad rabbis in the Phoenix retreat. For matter of fact the couple in the brochure is being handled by a Chabbad rabbi from Northern California who is the son in law of an important Chabbad rabbi in Southern California.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2007/12/ejf-motivational-retreat.html
A FEW Chabad Rabbis at the Phoenix retreat?
ReplyDeleteOh, I see. Sorry. That means of course that the entire program is now treif.
Idiot!
To those making disparaging comments about those who makareved me, I didn't stop using my brain when I became shomer mitzvos.
Perhaps it's time you started using yours, as well as your almost frozen solid heart.
The hatred so many of you have towards Chabad, the non-observant, the secular, kiruv movements, the convert, the goy and the intermarried originates from hasatan for sure.
Check yourself before you wreck yourself.
I do not know if the self styled neshama saver is being sent by the EJF to attack opponents or he is here on his own, but it does not make a difference. It just shows the pay the EJF attacks people they cannot buy.
ReplyDeleteMatza min es mino
Neshama Saver said:
ReplyDelete> The hatred so many of you have towards Chabad, the non-observant, the secular, kiruv movements, the convert, the goy and the intermarried originates from hasatan for sure.
>
> 1. It is a mitzvah to abhor idolatry and those who have replaced service of Hashem with Rebbe worship, or any other incentive are a problem for Klal Yisrael. "Rabbis" who will fill their "kiruv" programs with non Jews are practicing a religion other than Judaism.
>
> 2. the non-observant, the secular. All Jews are one family. We love our family and that love is unconditional toward those who choose to remain part of the family. The Jewish child of the most secular Jew can grow up to become a Rosh Yeshiva if he is properly exposed to the beauty and richness of the Torah life that is his birthright. But such is not the case of the Gentile biological child of a Jewish man who chose to separate himself from the Jewish people eternally for the lust of a Gentile woman. His soul is lost forever.
>
> 3. Kiruv- Kiruv means bringing JEWS closer to Hashem, not proselytizing to Gentiles. One way to help a Jew become mitzvah observant ("close") is to convince him to leave the Gentile who is causing him to commit a Torah level sin.
>
> 4. The Convert - It is a mitzvah to love the convert and I have met only one true convert in my lifetime (who converted for the sake of Heaven and not in order to try to permit an intermarriage). We learned together for three years before she converted and she was a constant guest in my home and an inspiration to my family. When she passed away,(days after she finally converted) we lost a member of the family.
>
> 5. Goyim - Hashem created Gentiles to be Gentiles and it is a mitzvah to appreciate him for who and what he is. The person who truly HATES the Goy is the one who steals his place in the World to come, the place he rightfully achieves by observing the Seven Noahide Laws. Those who mislead her into forfeiting her place in the World to Come in order to become a Jew who must observe all 613 mitzvot truly hates the Gentile. Born Jews struggle with mitzvah observance and most fail to properly observe a fraction of what they must. WHAT business does anyone have to impose the yoke of Torah on a Gentile who is likely to fail (and probably doesn't even understand) mitzvah observance for the convenience of the Jew who wishes to cohabit with her. For whose benefit is the "conversion" being done? Surely NOT the Gentile woman? It is ONLY for the benefit of the JEW!!
>
> Do you love HER or do you love only yourself and the life you enjoy with her? If you truly loved HER you would not try to change her and take from her place in the World to Come. You would separate from her and preserve her soul for eternity rather than stealing it from her for your own convenience. Because I DO love the Gentile for the person that Hashem created her to be, I am opposed to your tricking her into giving up her eternity so that you do not have to give up yours (or so you have been led to believe).
>
> 6. Hatred of the intermarried- those who intermarry intentionally cut themselves off from the Jewish people. All Jews (and most non Jews) know it is forbidden
> to marry outside of the faith. It is a mitzvah to hate those who distance themselves from Hashem and cut themselves off from the Jewish people. I hope you will return to serve the G-d who created you and to honor the fathers and mothers who came before you for 3,300 years. Surely you are not smarter than the 110 generations of people who came before you since Mt Sinai, who all felt that Judaism was worth living and dying for. Our ancestors lived through pogroms, exiles, expulsions and genocides rather than abandon their faith, the Judaism you willingly and knowingly threw away for the lust of a woman forbidden to you.
> --
>
>
Rabbi,
ReplyDeleteDue to the vitriolic attacks, I am officially leaving this blog. No matter what I say about myself, my experiences or my affilations, the rashas here refuse to accept at face value what I say and instead accuse me of being an undercover agent for the EJF.
No wonder millions of Jews have left Judaism for atheism, Buddhism, Scientology, Hinduism and Christianity. It is because of the evil they perpetrate that they will be repaid 1000 fold after they take their last breath.
The love that certain people here are incapable of showing will surely drive even more Jews away from Hashem, Mitzvot & Torah.
May Hashem have mercy on their souls.
Goodbye.
Neshama Saver does not understand what love really is.
ReplyDeleteWhich parent loves his child the most? A). parent who forces his child to go to bed on time, take vitamins, do homework, eat vegetables and exercise or B). the parent who allows his child to stay up all night watching TV, skipping school and eating candy all day?
From the perspective of Neshama Saver the only "good" parent is the one who will permit him to do everything as he wishes.
Torah, the rule book by which Jews live tells us what is permitted and what is not. We look to our Rabbis to guide us in following the rules laid out in the Torah by Hashem our Father.
Real Rabbis "tell it like it is" although we, Hashem's children often do not like to hear all that Hashem expects from us.
When Rabbis are paid for their judgment of halacha, they are much more likely to tell people what they want to hear rather than what Hashem really wants from them according to the Torah and our Sages.
Its easy to see how the rules might evolve away from halacha when a Rabbi's living depends upon finding a way to present a Judaism that will be pleasing to the people who are paying him.
Is this blog for real?
ReplyDeleteYou have just given a wonderful present to Chosen People Ministries & Jews for Jesus.
They will gladly go after the mixed married Jews and their spouses.
Do you ghetto Jews ever come out of your shells? Do you have any clue to what is transpiring in the real world?
85% of Jews are assimilated.
60% are intermarried.
Are those so0called frum Jews whom are against reaching out to the intermarried on the payroll of Jews for Jesus, cause they're certainly acting on their behalf?
I can see David Brickner, Moishe Rosen, Mitch Glaser, David Chernoff, Jay Sekulow and their ilk having a field day with this nonsense.