Reply to Baruch's objection to blanket criticism of conversion organizations

Baruch wrote:

" I do feel that blanket statements, be they about baeti din or organizations, should not be made, as they cause people to look with unneeded suspicion towards true geirim,"

I share your concern. However I need you to clarify the target of your comment. Who were you concerned about - that motivated your comment to my blog? Are you referring to my postings and those of other commentators who have criticized Eternal Jewish Family or were you concerned primarily about Eternal Jewish Family's blanket criticism of those rabbis and batei dinim who are not under their supervision? If you have read through the material on this blog or elsewhere on the internet you are aware that it was stated in the Washington EJF conference that that rabbis who believe the world is more than 6000 years old can not perform conversions. This assertion - which has not been challenged or rejected by EJF - threatens the validity of the geirus of those who have utilized Modern Orthodox rabbis.

In fact Rav Sternbuch told me that Eternal Jewish Family believes that I have manipulated the Bedatz against them because they are convinced that I want to destroy them because of their delegitimizing Modern Orthodox rabbis with this rule.

Perhaps you were expressing your ire with the Bedatz who issued a public condemnation of EJF? Or perhaps you are concerned with the Israeli rabbinate which publicly rejects the validity of those rabbis who don't meet their standards?

Please clarify what your concern is.

Criticizing conversion organizations - debases all gerim?

Baruch has left a new comment on your post "A Deeper Look at the current EJF Website and Troub...":

As someone who studied for seven years for geirus, beginning at the age of 14, I am very involved with the controversies surrounding the issue. It should be noted that none of the batei din on this list are, to my knowledge, officially associated with EJF. Instead, the organization simply lists them as acceptable batei din organizations and run by those with deep knowledge of the issues and upstanding members who have studied under and/or gained the trust of rabbonim such as Harav Eliyashiv shlit"a, Harav Amar shlit"a, Harav Feinstein shlit"a, and Rav Eisenstein shlit"a. I was mentored and tutored under one of the batei din listed on the EJF list and never heard anything about EJF from them. Also, my geirus was done by a beis din listed on the list, who also never made any mention of the EJF organization. Please remember that whenever you cast doubts of batei din being able to carry out geirus as a whole, you cast doubts on people like me, who studied for years, adjusted to, adapted with, and completely became part of the Torah world and have complete committment to halacha without any "motivation" by a spouse or partner. I am not saying that geirus shouldn't be more closely watched, and that there shouldn't be more assurance that gerim are truly Torah-practicing people; in fact, it would make it better for people like me. However, I do feel that blanket statements, be they about baeti din or organizations, should not be made, as they cause people to look with unneeded suspicion towards true geirim, which only reminds us over and over that we weren't born Jews, something that is expressly forbidden time and time again by the Torah.

Lakewood baal teshuva marrano is Christian? III

Yeshiva World News

has some important updates to the story

Lakewood baal teshuva marrano is Christian? II

The Ger Tzedek who is a Levi, The Conservative Jew who is an Orthodox Rabbi, and The Christian College professor ordained by the Rabbinate of Israel -- an American Story

We are all familiar with the recent news story out of Lakewood NJ where Natan Levy was arrested as a fugitive from the FBI. It turned out that Mr. Levy was actually Ted Floyd, a Kansas gentile.

When the story first broke, Floyd was described by the Lakewood Rabbis as a Marrano who was a Baal Teshuvah and a Levi. This alone should raise questions since it is well known that Marranos are not Jewish. In their zest to collect a "frum" Jew, the Rabbis in Lakewood fully accepted that this man, who by his own admission wasn't raised Jewish, and they accepted him as both a full Jew and as a Levi.

After the story broke, a Rabbi Pinchas Aloof of Wichita Kansas was tracked down and he claimed that Floyd was a goy, but that he converted him and his wife. Aloof claimed he is an Orthodox Rabbi and it was an Orthodox conversion. The blog vosizneias reported "VIN News has now learned that the man in question, currently being held by the authorities for attempted passport fraud and identity theft, did in fact undergo a conversion by an Orthodox rabbi together with his wife in 2002.

VIN has located and contacted Rabbi Pinchas Aloof, who was serving the synagogue Congregation Ahavat Achim in Wichita, Kansas at the time Mr. and Mrs. Floyd underwent conversion—and who has vouched in a telephone conversation with VIN from his Texas home for the Floyds' authentic Jewish status and kosher conversion. "It was 100% kosher with a Beis Din, I was there; they both went trough the whole process 'al pi halacha'" says Rabbi Aloof."

Many visitors to that blog expressed fantastic relief that the truth was finally out! Of course, nobody seemed terribly troubled about the fact that this "Ger Tzedek" may have had ulterior motives (as a fugitive from justice) nor was anyone troubled that he arrived in Lakewood using the identity of a DEAD man and posed as a Levi. Nope, all the bloggers were glad that the Loshon Hora was being put to a stop and that this man's Jewishness was affirmed!

If anyone bothered to look a step further and do some basic internet searching, one would find that Aloof is NOT an Orthodox Rabbi, and there is no Beit Din in Wichita that could have done a proper conversion. Aloof has led more than one Conservative congregation, teaches at a Christian college, and his synagogue, which lacks a Mechitsa, is described as welcoming to people of all faiths. Some evidence is mounting that he might even be intermarried himself. Orthodox?

VIN claims further: "VIN News has confirmed that Rabbi Aloof received his semicha from the Rabbinate of Israel, and is a Talmud of Yeshivas Chofitz Chaim of Baltimore." From this we of course infer that the Rabbinate fully supports Rabbi Aloof and would of course accept the conversion of this man who converted while escaping the law and then later posed as a Marrano and Levi in Lakewood. I would love to see the Rabbinate make a statement either saying "this is our guy and we stand by him and this conversion" or "we made a mistake giving him Smicha and hereby revoke it" or "we never heard of him."

Time and time again we see Jewish Americans go to extreme lengths to find a way to accept any possible excuse to label Gentiles as the true Jews. Of course, the big question is "why?"

The answer may come from an unlikely source: Woody Allen, who said "I wouldn't want to be a member of any club who would have a person like ME as a member." American Jews feel great and empowered when a goy chooses to be Jewish. All of their dissatisfaction and insecurity about being Jewish evaporates when a goy wants to be part of the club. This is so important that the American Jews, and their Rabbis, truly do not care about the quality of the conversion, nor do they care even IF a conversion was done, in most cases. As long as we fill more seats and get more donations and bigger population numbers everything is good. Because Woody Allen is correct in his assessment of the American Jewish psyche, the logical cure to assimilation is to welcome the gentiles to our fold (their thinking, not mine).

That's one explanation. Of course the other explanation could just be that we have let so much Christian thought into our communities that now their value system is replacing ours.

Posted by: Bright Eyes

An unintentional intermarriage - Jewish Action Magazine

There is a good article on unintentional intermarriage in Jewish Action
concerning a woman who discovered that despite being raised as a Jew - she was not a Jew according to halacha.

Eternal Jewish Family conference in Argentina - canceled!

I was informed that the conference in Argentina has been canceled.

Lakewood baal teshuva marrano is Christian? I

http://www.vosizneias.com/

http://www.vosizneias.com/2008/03/lakewood-nj-shock-con-man-faking-as.html#links


http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=16018

Update - he is now reported to be a genuine ger
ynet disagrees

Eternal Jewish Family Conference in Argentina

The EJF will soon be having a conference in Argentina. I would appreciate receiving reports from those who attend as to what is said and decided there.

I would also like feedback as to the impact the ruling of the Bedatz against participlation in EJf has had.

Valid conversions are not always good for the Jewish people - Rabbeinu Bachye

[translated by R' Eliyahu Munk]

Rabbeinu Bachye[1](Devarim 21:14):. The sequences of our passages in this chapter are reminiscent of Isaiah 24,18 where the prophet tells us that when one has managed to escape one kind of terror, one will find oneself entrapped by a different kind of trap. The sum total of the moral/ethical teaching of these verses is that even marriages which are permitted by the Torah are not necessarily suitable union;. The marriages to prisoners of war are a prime example of such unions. Even though the women in question have converted to Judaism! This is not considered a complete (ideal) conversion. It is assumed that the woman in question converted out of fear, i.e. physical fear of otherwise being executed. Even when someone volunteers to become a proselyte with no pressure from any cases which we can detect, the sages (Yevamot 47) have instructed the judges performing the conversion to carefully examine the prospective proselyte’s background to determine if he or she is converting for ulterior motives, i.e. Not because of genuine religious conviction. Money, position, etc., may an be reasons which attract a Gentile to become Jewish. In the case of males more likely than not they have their eyes on a Jewish girl whom they wish to marry. Judiasm is different from other religions which are soul snatchers, missionary by definition. The reason is that we are a rational religion, not one which wishes to embrace all of mankind. Some of the other religions, Islam in particular, are imbued with th fervor to ram their beliefs down the throats of people whom they perceive to be pagans. Sometimes all kinds of enticements, both material and spiritual, are offered to the potential convert in order to get him to embrace a particular new fath. This is what Daniel already prophesied about (Daniel 7,20) “and a mouth speaking haughty words.” Daniel 7,25 also deals with the same phenomenon describing efforts at converting others to one’s belief being made my leaders of religious cults. In Daniel 11,36 Daniel harps on the same subject once more. Once the prospective convert to Judaism has been checked out and no ulterior motives have been discovered which would make us doubt his sincerity, he is advised of the yoke of Torah legislation and what is implied by joining the Jewish people. (Maimonides Hilchat Issurey Bi-ah 13,14). All of this is designed to make the prospective convert reconsider his plans to become Jewish. During the reign of David prospective converts were rejected as it was suspected that these converts were inspired by fear of the growing power of the Jewish state. In Solomon’s time they wele also not accepted as it was suspected that they were motivated by the affluence and security offered by King Solomon’s empire. (compare Maimonides Hilchot Issurey Bi-ah 13,14-15) Despite these rulings, there were many converts during the reign of David and Solomon, and once local courts had conducted such conversions and the converts had undergone ritual immersion the higher courts did not revoke these conversions. Although Solomon who married numerous women of pagan ancestry converted all them of.them prior to marrying them, and Shimshon too did not marry until after the lady had been converted, seeing these conversions were due to ulterior motives, scripture continues to describe the women in question as if they had remained Gentiles and sleeping with them was forbidden. The outcome of these “marriages.. testifies to the fact that they were flawed from the beginning. The Book of Kings accuses Solomon of building altars for the former deities his various foreign-born wives served, although he personally did nothing of the sort. The fact that he did not interfere with such goings on is placed at his doorstep. (compare Kings I chapter 11) our sages in Yevamot 47 that converts are as serious a plague for our sages in Yevamot 47 that converts are as serious a plague for the Jewih people as is the dreaded skin disease tzoraaat. The reason for this attitude is that experience has shown that the majority of converts abandoned their former religion only because of material advantages to be attained by becoming Jewish. Not only that, these converts have a habit of leading natural born Jews astray. Once these people have become legal converts. The first time such converts led the natural born Jews astray was during the episode of the golden calf, whereas a short time later the same thing occurred in Numbers 11,4 when.a group of peop\e described by Ihe Torah as asafsaf instigated the craving for meat which resulted in misearble death. Sifri Behaalotcha 86 attributes all this to these converts. Time and again such fair-weather converts have become the bane of our people. Just as we learned from the order in which these last few paragraphs have been arranged that one sin brings in its wake another sin, we can learn from another sequence of paragraphs that one commandment meticulously observed will bring in its wake the fulfillment of other commandments.

---

[1] רבנו בחיי (דברים כא:יד): ונסמכה לפרשה זו של יפת תואר פרשת כי תהיין לאיש שתי נשים האחת אהובה והאחת שנואה, ללמדך שאשת יפת תואר זו לא התירה התורה אלא בקושי גדול, ולא דיברה תורה אלא כנגד יצר הרע, שהרי לסוף הוא שונא אותה, ואם יש לו בן ממנה יהיה בן סורר ומורה, לכך סמך לה כי יהיה לאיש בן סורר ומורה, וכן מצינו בדוד שלקח את מעכה בתו של תלמי מלך גשור בצאתו למלחמה יצא ממנו אבשלום שבקש להרגו, ושכב עם נשיו לעיני כל ישראל, ועשה כמה מחלוקת בישראל ונהרגו על ידו אלפים ורבבות מישראל. ועוד היה בזה מדה כנגד מדה, הוא חטא בבת שבע ונענש באבשלום בנו שהוא בנו של בת אל נכר, הוא שכתוב (שמואל ב יב, יא) הנני מקים עליך רעה מביתך. וסמיך ליה עוד פרשת וכי יהיה באיש חטא משפט מות והומת, ללמדך שאם ינצל מן הפחד ילכד בפח:

ולמדנו מתוך סמיכות פרשיות אלו שעבירה גוררת עבירה, שהרי נישואין הללו אינן ראוין, ואף על פי שנתגיירה אין זה גירות שלמה שלא עשתה כן אלא מיראה ומפחד החרב, שאפילו מי שבא להתגייר מעצמו אמרו חז"ל (יבמות מז.) שבודקין אחריו שמא בשביל ממון הוא מתגייר או בשביל שררה שיזכה בו או בשביל הפחד או בשביל חשק, ואם הוא איש שמא נתן עיניו באשה יהודית ואם היא אשה שמא עיניה נתנה בבחור מבחורי ישראל, זה דרך תורתנו, לא כשאר התורות שמחזרין אחר האומות ורוצים להרחיב אמונתם בהם, זו באה לנצח ולהתגבר בכח החרב לכל מי שימאן להאמין, וזו באה לנצח בכח הדברים ודברי חלקות ופתויין ויחפאו על ה' דברים אשר לא כן, והוא שהתנבא עליהם דניאל ופם ממלל רברבן (דניאל ז, ח), וכתיב (שם, כה) ומלין לצד עלאה ימלל וגו', ויסבר להשניה זמנין ודת, כלומר שיחשוב לשנות המועדים והתורה שלנו ולא יעלה בידו, זהו לשון ויסבר, וכתיב עוד (שם יא, לו) ועל אל אלים ידבר נפלאות. ואחר שבודקין אחריו ואין מוציאין לו עילה, מודיעין אותו עול המצוות והטורח שיש בעשייתן כדי שיפרוש:

ולפיכך לא קבלו גרים בימי דוד ושלמה, בימי דוד שמא מן הפחד חזרו, בימי שלמה שמא מחמת המלכות והטובה שהיו בה ישראל חזרו, שכל החוזר מן האומות בשביל דבר מהבלי העולם אינו מגרי הצדק, ואף על פי כן היו הגרים בימי דוד ושלמה הרבה, והיו בית דין הגדול חוששים להם, לא דוחין אותן אחר שטבלו מכל מקום, ולא מקבלין אותן עד שתראה אחריתן. ולפי שגייר שלמה נשים ונשאן, וכן שמשון גייר ונשא, והדבר ידוע שלא חזרו אלא בשביל תליית דבר ולא על פי בית דין גיירום, חשבן הכתוב כאילו הן נכריות ובאיסורן עומדות. ועוד שהוכיח סופן על תחילתן שהן היו עובדות העבודה זרה שלהן ובנו להן במות, והעלה עליו הכתוב כאילו הוא בנאן, שנאמר (מלכים א יא, ז) אז יבנה שלמה במה. ולכך דרשו חז"ל (יבמות מז ע"ב) קשים גרים לישראל כנגע צרעת, שרובן חוזרין בשביל דבר ומטעין את ישראל, וקשה הדבר לפרוש מהן אחר שנתגיירו, ובכל מקום מצינו שהיו הגרים לישראל סיבה למכשולות ונזקים, במדבר במעשה העגל ערב רב היו סיבה, וכן בשאלת הבשר והאספסוף אשר בקרבו (במדבר יא, ד), אלו הגרים, הם היו תחילה לכל הרעות וראשית מדון:

Where is the letter from HaRav Amar shlita that converts for the sake of marriage will be accepted in Israel?

Jersey Girl said...

[amicusEJf (the defender of Eternal Jewish Family) asked:]

"Are you suggesting that - ex post facto - the Bedatz would not accept the gerus of an intermarried spouse that had been performed under the auspices of R' Smuel Eliezer Stern, for example, of R' Wosner's Beis Din? Has this actually ever happened?"

A number of young men and women from our community who are the children of women who were converted for marriage have gone to learn in Israeli yeshivas and seminaries. From what I have personally seen, none were eligible to marry a Jew in Israel and were explicitly told so.

The only shidduchim I have seen among these families have been with others in the same boat. There are very few observant Jewish men who would marry a woman who is not accepted as a Jew in Israel.

I have also been told by my own Rav in Israel that I may not make shidduchim for people who are offspring of women converted for marriage, even with others in the same situation.

Do you know if any of the children of women converted for marriage by Rav Wosner or Rav Stern have been able to marry in Israel?

I personally think that it is very misleading if American Rabbis will perform conversions that will not be accepted in Israel. If you are not a Jew in Israel, what good is the conversion?

amicus EJF's defense of Eternal Jewish Family II

amicusEJF wrote:


Dear R' Eidensohn, shlita,

It's late and I am accompanying a close relative to surgery tomorrow morning, but let me try to hit a couple points now.

1) You wrote about the importance of sampling the visceral substrate in limited quantities.

I think you are right, as long as it is clearly labeled as such, which is indeed what you did with the original carmella corleone post. I think, however, that there was a week in which you presented RaP posts that stretched or violated this standard. We must remember that this blog does not exist in a vacuum; it exists in the blogosphere, which is a pretty foul place. Too much of that visceral substrate and this becomes a blog like any other blog. I can't imagine that Rav Moshe Shternbuch would sanction that under any circumstances.

2) Speaking of Rav Shternbuch, shlita: There are two parts of your list that I studiously avoided mentioning. One was the quote from Rav Shternbuch and the other was R' Tropper's criticism of you on the Abarbanel. I didn't feel and I don't feel that a public forum such as this blog is the place for these kind of things. Bemechilas kevodcha haram, I don't feel that publishing the quote from RMS is ultimately bekovodig towards him. As far as R' Tropper and RMS, I have to do some further checking. As far as his criticism of you on the Abarbanel, I have already taken that up with him directly.

I will say, though, that I disagree with the way you presented the Abarbanel's view. It's been a while since I went through it, but I do remember seeing a significant inaccuracy in that post. But that will have to wait for another time.

3) Burden of proof. I stand by what I wrote. It seems to make a lot of sense to me.

But you added something interesting: "The Bedatz represents an important group – whether you agree with them or not – whose acceptance or rejection clearly impacts the degree that the slogan “universal acceptance” is true. EJF can’t claim universal standards and then say to any part of the Jewish world - “I don’t have to justify myself to you because I really don’t care what you think – and I don’t care if you accept my conversions.” Universal standards which are only accepted by a part of the Orthodox world – are not universal standards! Isn’t that obvious?"

Are you suggesting that - ex post facto - the Bedatz would not accept the gerus of an intermarried spouse that had been performed under the auspices of R' Smuel Eliezer Stern, for example, of R' Wosner's Beis Din? Has this actually ever happened?
---------------------

amicusEJF added...

Sorry, I pushed the Publish button before I was done [and before I could proofread what I wrote]. Perhaps, though, I should stop here and carry on tomorrow.

March 13, 2008 7:07 AM